-236

Update: The test is over; results and the final form of this restriction detailed here: Remove the limitation that stops comments from starting with +1 or -1


I'm getting really sick of finding folks arguing about votes, only to see that the bickering started with a comment of the form,

-1, because [some perfectly reasonable criticism]

As has been discussed many times, voting is anonymous for a reason; folks who give up that anonymity do so at their own risk, but, I suspect, often don't realize this. I'm particularly sick of folks complaining about revenge downvoting when they're in the habit of doing this, but the problem is bigger than that; even at best these are a distraction, drawing attention away from the content of comments and focusing on voting. Even when the author whose post is being commented on sticks to just replying to the comment, the fixation on voting can and often does derail what should be a useful conversation about the technical merits of a post.

This is a bigger problem for "-1" comments (trivia: these get flagged more often even when there's no actual downvote than do comments left by actual downvoters), but I don't think +1 comments are all that great either; often they fail to add any useful information to the post, and at best they still set a bad example for others.

So... I just set this up:

Stating how you voted may distract the author from the important parts of your comment. Please focus on what you found useful or unhelpful about the post.

Naturally, I think it's a great idea. But, I've been known to be a bit reactionary after only a few years of wasting time on a problem. What do you think?

You can get an idea of what comments could no longer be posted as they were with this query. Note that the query doesn't show comments that are already deleted.

Results

I've been tracking the results of comments blocked by this and other blacklists (comment blocked vs. comment posted) - we've probably had too many of these discussions without actually examining the effects. The first 252 results can be found here: https://stackedit.io/viewer#!provider=gist&gistId=af9d8186690cb658aafe&filename=commentblacklistresults.md (note that this includes before-after versions for every comment blocked by a blacklist entry, including WHYT and LMGTFY).

96
  • 51
    +1, +1 in comments are useless. Btw, the more you are trying to restrict it, the more workarounds will be found :)
    – nicael
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:02
  • 112
    -1, I suspect trying to fight against a deeply embedded internet tradition of prepending "+1" may be a losing battle, and forcing it will either generate much angst or silly workarounds like "-2" or "Downvoted", or just putting it at the end somewhere. I don't think forcing things is worth it unless it actually solves a problem.
    – Jason C
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:02
  • 21
    So, just flip the sign then. Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:09
  • 62
    I think @HansPassant is on to an idea there. What if instead of blocking +1/-1 comments, you just randomly flipped the sign?
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:10
  • 70
    @BilltheLizard: Hilarious: -1, that's awesome. +1, did you read the question? ... Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:12
  • 45
    @BilltheLizard +1 is the correct rounding of -1.4, not -2.
    – Compass
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:18
  • 35
    +0 is the only sensible response.
    – bmargulies
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:59
  • 15
    How about we make it easier for the <2000 users to flag and remove comments like that? Currently, only powerful mods may delete comments. But since we always drone about comments-are-2nd-class-citizens , let us lower-ranks clean it up. Perhaps , a feature to auto-remove lousy comments if enough of us flag it. Tell us the rules, and we can collectively do it! Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 21:07
  • 192
    ... when I (anonymously) downvoted this question, a little blue tooltip encouraged me to explain to you why. Do you see the irony here? Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 5:53
  • 25
    @Close voters, what's up? Surely a question outright asking What do you think? cannot be closed as not seeking input and discussion from the community, even if you disagree with its premises. Downvote all your fancy, but voting to close feels silly. Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 9:12
  • 64
    -1, I have already discarded a comment that described how a poster should improve their post because I got a long vague red error message telling me not to tell them why their post needed improvement. Now that poster will not get a description of what they need to do to make their post better, and I'm not about to go back and find the text I typed now that I figured out what triggered the problem. As an aside, it is rather hard to search for the error message: I was expecting a highly upvoted meta question before such a change. I appear to be mistaken. Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 16:04
  • 10
    –1 your regex doesn't take into account unicode
    – user764357
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 22:42
  • 15
    I.e. I don't think you actually know what problem you're trying to solve here. Your frustration was reasonable but you need to put more thought into it and come up with some solid rationales. Opening a discussion before trying things like this is a good way to get some additional insight. If you don't then it kind of just hurts your cause, because you lose out on a good resource (other people) that can help you solve your problem. "I want to reduce how often I have to explain to people why they were the target of revenge, any suggestions?" would have been a better approach.
    – Jason C
    Commented Nov 22, 2014 at 2:40
  • 29
    Term limits for moderators. Now. Commented Nov 29, 2014 at 20:57
  • 10
    @Shog9 Sorry, but this seems like "I think it may make my life easier so the entire community is going to have to change its habbits". Near-universal dislike of the suggestion (None of the answers support it) and yet you refuse to revert it. Feels like you don't care too much about community opinion...
    – Basic
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 17:40

24 Answers 24

201

I disagree that this is an actual problem. However, I will assume it is for the sake of discussion. Under that assumption, I see the following issues with this proposal:

  1. Very easy to work around. Of course many match rules can be made to try and get most workarounds, but some will be missed. Some examples off the top of my head:

    • "-​1 Do not like" (contains zero-width space U+200B; obviously not convenient but just illustrative)
    • "-1 Do not like"
    • "... -1 Do not like"
    • "-2 Do not like"
    • "Do not like. -1"
    • "Do not like. -1!"
    • "Downvoted. Do not like." (this really is the same content)
    • etc.
  2. Prepending "+1" (e.g.) to comments and posts is a fairly long-standing and deeply-ingrained internet custom, which is being even more reinforced in recent years by Google. Trying to fight something like this seems like an uphill battle, destined to create much angst at best, and certain to inspire many workarounds.

Unless you can (subjective) show that this is really a problem and, more importantly, (objective) come up with a way to completely solve it, I do not support forcing users to rewrite comments for minimally effective solutions.

28
  • 35
    Beat me to it. Seems like an ineffective "solution" to a non-issue.
    – nobody
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:19
  • 56
    +1, you took the words out of my mouth. This is not an issue. Leading with a +1 isn't a distraction, it is a natural way of agreeing with a post and adding something to it in the comments.
    – Matt
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:19
  • 17
    Don't care that it's easy to work around. Do care that I have to keep explaining to folks why their stuff is getting downvoted.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:29
  • 37
    Then stop explaining it?
    – Bart
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:31
  • 34
    @Shog9 Sorry, maybe I'm a little dense. Can you elaborate on the connection between "+/-1" comment prefixes and you having to keep explaining to folks why their stuff is getting downvoted?
    – Jason C
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:31
  • 9
    Scenario: user emails me because someone is downvoting all of his posts. I look at his account to try and figure out if the issue is someone out for revenge or just the usual lots and lots of crap posts. I find comment after comment of the form, "-1 because ..." followed by the authors of those posts opening his profile and looking for something to downvote.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:34
  • 27
    @Shog9: I'm not at all convinced with this. I think said downvoters would still do the same, whether or not the -1 was present or not; they just can't take criticism, whether or not it is prefixed with a -1.
    – Matt
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:36
  • 7
    @Shog9 That's kind of you to look into it when they email you.. but maybe you just need to give them the link to a canonical duplicate of what to do when you suspect serial downvoting? Only under extreme cases (like 2 minus 2's each day every day for like 2 or more weeks).. which is very easy to see by just checking the reputation should you maybe investigate further?
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:38
  • 13
    I want folks to explain why they downvote, @JasonC - my goal here is to actively discourage folks from relaying that they downvoted. It's irrelevant. If you have suggestions for better guidance in that pop-up, I'm all ears...
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:42
  • 11
    @Shog9 TBH, if you want to put an end to this revenge downvoting BS, I think the solution is to allow anonymous comments. Right now, the only alternative is to comment from a separate account that has only association bonus and no posts to downvote.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:46
  • 15
    i^4 People can easily get around this.
    – user764357
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:59
  • 18
    exp(pi i) This is a complex issue indeed!
    – rubenvb
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 10:30
  • 28
    @Gilles: "Intelligent people will follow the advice" That's basically tantamount to calling anyone who disagrees with you "stupid", which is an ad hominem attack, which you shall now cease producing. Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 10:33
  • 12
    @Shog9 mods creating a hostile atmosphere - you don't say...
    – Rawling
    Commented Dec 16, 2014 at 8:57
  • 10
    -1 and wish I could downvote more. @Shog9 is trying to solve HIS problem that he Do care that I have to keep explaining to folks why their stuff is getting downvoted. by inconveniencing and angering the rest of the community. Hope he's enjoying having to keep explaining to folks why they're wrong and he's right because it's his ball.
    – Ed Morton
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 17:38
147

I am against such a measure, for multiple reasons, listed here in no particular order.

1. We shouldn't forbid users to do what they want to do.

OK, in some cases we should. That's why we delete rude comments or poll questions. But we need a really good reason for it. A "this is really harmful for you and the others" reason, not a "this is mildly irritating to some of the regular users" reason. Instead of micromanaging them, we can let them do it their way.

The natural reaction of a person told "don't do this" is a Jake-Shepherd-esque "Don't tell me what I can't do!". Or, sometimes, a "I'm so sorry I did something bad, please don't punish me". It forces the user to cope with an unpleasant emotion, and should be restricted to a minimum.

2. It would seem arbitrary to outsiders.

Stack Exchange is somewhat polarizing to netizens. Many people who encounter us for the first time are very unhappy with the existing strict system of rules, which seem completely arbitrary from their point of view. Lots of them decide that we are a bunch of loonies and don't stay around.

If we want to actually be open to others, and appear welcoming instead of running newbies through a maze of weird rules, we should minimize the prohibitions we place on their behavior. This is one prohibition we can easily live without.

3. It has its uses even when it appears like noise.

Sometimes, an upvote just isn't enough to express what a user is feeling. In this case, he is likely to add an emphasizing "+1 for pointing out the gotcha with integers". This is not noise, it is a way to 1) call attention to the fact that this answer seems to be unusually good, better than the average answer (which deserves an upvote only) and 2) to underline some very important point mentioned in the answer which newbies may glance over, especially in a detailed, long answer.

Sometimes it is also used in a more subtle manner. Imagine somebody seeing a question about "how to do [complicated calculation] in Excel", answering, and adding "but you are probably better off using R instead" and wondering if he is coming across as a pretentious prick. A quick "+1 for suggesting R", gathering upvotes itself, shows him that the advice is appreciated, in a way which a simple upvote wouldn't express.

4. It is part of Stack Exchange culture

I know all the arguments about being reserved, professional, and concentrate on creating good content, not building a social network. But we cannot escape the fact that we are a community, and as any community, we build our own set of shared behavioral patterns, in-jokes and memes. They help users feel part of the community and create an emotional bond, increasing their participation and their satisfaction.

The "+1/-1" comments are such a meme, sometimes also used as an in-joke. They are lightweight enough to not create too much friction, more easily adopted by new users than cryptic ones like "boat programming", but also typical enough to give the users a warm and fuzzy feeling of belonging. They are part of the social glue which holds us together and gives us a community identity.

5. They are a very good way to explain up- and downvotes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for mandatory vote explanation, mainly because votes (especially downvotes) are very useful even when not explained. But an explanation adds value to a vote, be it because the post author gets feedback which helps him improve, or because he knows when to ignore downvotes which are, in his eyes, not justified. And prefacing an explanation with "+1" or "-1" is a very succinct and unambiguous way to label the comment as a vote explanation.

Even if we think "but users can still write an explanation without prefacing it", users are tricky creatures who are likely to extrapolate rules where none exist, especially on a site where their first experience probably involved breaking rules of whose existence they had no idea. If we tell them "don't leave +1/-1 comments", many of them are likely to read into it "stop leaving vote explanation comments of any kind".

6. The users are already accustomed to them.

Taking stuff away from users is very unpleasant to them. Even when it is inferior stuff and we are giving them a better alternative. We should have a very good reason to take something away. For me, the "it's noise" argument is not strong enough.

7. We don't have sufficient evidence that they cause drama

I've heard the argument that, if a user is high strung, a "-1" comment can send him overboard and create drama. I agree that we don't need additional drama. But in my experience, if a user is really high strung, he can go off by lots of stuff, including getting a big red label in his face telling him "you cannot do what you want" (like leaving a +1 comment to somebody else). Or by seeing his question getting a downvote, without anybody explaining the downvote. Or by reading somebody's criticism on his post, without it being prefaced with a -1.

8. For completeness: it is trivially easy to circumvent the filter

There are many other answers explaining that one better, and I don't think it's as important as the other arguments, but here it is.

9. I don't see them causing a need for action

If the moderators on some site are busy deleting three "+1" comments per answer, then something should be done about such a flood, be it Shog's suggestion or something else. But I am not aware of such a problem. I see the comments pop up now and then, not enough to call it an epidemic.

To use a cooking metaphor, they are like vinegar. If there were drowning other content, that would be bad. A light sprinkling of them, used at strategic places - and this is what I have seen - spices up the site.

10
  • 11
    Yeah, it's a part of the culture. If it wasn't, I wouldn't bring it up. My assertion is that it's an essentially harmful aspect to the culture, one that is often mimicked but not as often understood. Note that it would also be possible to just strip these silently (as we do for @-mentions at the start of comments when they're unnecessary) - but that lacks the educational aspect I'm hoping for here, which attempts to drive commenting in a more constructive direction instead of just disallowing something I don't care for.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 21:55
  • 7
    @Shog9 - I'll admit I have a habit of commenting "+1" in some cases. Usually I'm trying to indicate that I think it is a good answer but it could be improved: "+1, but it would be best to [whatever] instead of [whatever] because [reason]". Mainly I don't want it to be seen as negative criticism, because it's not! I just think that the answer could be made even better. Is this a bad thing? Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:26
  • 1
    Not so much bad, @misterManSam, as just empty. What do you find useful about the post? What promise does it have that you're encouraging the author to build on? This isn't Twitter; you have 600 characters to play with - make the most of 'em!
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:46
  • 18
    @Shog9: I don't think requiring us to write essays on the profound merits of an answer is constructive. It's usually enough to say "I liked this answer in general; what you wrote makes sense and was well presented", which may be written in a much more succinct form: "+1". Then you continue with the suggested enhancements. Of course, commenters are free to expand on the "+1" with specific accolades if they wish, which is naturally where the "+1: I love the way you spelt 'optimise'" form comes from. Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 1:36
  • 12
    +1 for #5. In the long run people would stop explaining their votes and users never know what they're doing wrong, so they never get better, and site quality tumbles.
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 11:44
  • 7
    +1 for #3 and #5. Pointing out details of an answer as important is best prefixed by "+1 for …" instead of "I think your answer is useful because …"
    – Bergi
    Commented Nov 22, 2014 at 13:02
  • 1
    +1 for #7. I agree that these comments don't seem to be a cause of drama. I don't believe that people who are too attached to their answers to think rationally sit down and try to work out who downvoted them and retaliate against them, they just retaliate against anyone who wrote a comment they take as an "attack". I've had people become abusive, or even serially downvote my answers, because I answered a "Why was I downvoted?" comment on a -5 answer with "I didn't vote, so I can't be sure, but my guess would be ____".
    – abarnert
    Commented Dec 13, 2014 at 5:37
  • 1
    +1 -- especially for #7. When I downvote an answer, I usually post a "-1, sorry. [...]" comment, and the response is usually non-dramatic. I've gotten just as much drama from comments when I haven't actually downvoted as when I have. (Questions, on the other hand, are a cesspool . . .)
    – ruakh
    Commented Dec 18, 2014 at 6:29
  • _It forces the user to cope with an unpleasant emotion, and should be restricted to a minimum. _ Do you see the irony in this? People should not be restricted and feel unpleasant emotions, yet somehow causing unpleasant emotions with a "-1 because.." instead of a "disagree because", is OK. Also, "-1" is a very bad way to explain downvotes compared to more neutral alternatives, that would reduce load on moderators working on flamewars caused by "-1" alone.
    – user
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 22:20
  • 2
    "Jake Shepard"? Do you mean Jack Shepard? Or more probably...John Locke. Commented Apr 10, 2015 at 4:41
86

Please no. There is nothing wrong with this. If people get uppity about receiving a downvote that's their flaw. The information that they have received is not "noise" even in the slightest.

People keep complaining about not having downvotes explained, and a leading -1 succinctly links an explanation of how a post can be improved to a downvote received. Conversely, I love to see why people have upvoted me. Requiring people to simply give this information with no context whatsoever on how the opinion affected their post's score is a backwards step.

I see nothing to gain by forcibly banning this useful meta-information, and I can imagine it annoying me intensely.

8
  • 24
    I also kind of wish you'd gauged community opinion first. You're not Jeff! (AFAIK) Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:28
  • 5
    Agreeing. I think +1 is just nice, and -1 is good form (many times anynomous downvotes are not as constructive as they could (should!) be, and in the worst case it builds character). I remember an old idea to give anonymous feedback with downvotes. Until that is implemented, I'd say -1 comments should be encouraged
    – sehe
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:34
  • 3
    Talk is cheap. I'm collecting data on what this actually does right now, which should go a lot further toward informing this discussion than speculation. BTW, not a bit surprised to see The Lounge folk against this; y'all always do manage to find the edge-cases.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:39
  • 5
    @Shog9: BTW I'm somewhat hurt that you took my answer and decided to associate me with DeadMG over it :( I'm sure there's a logical fallacy for this somewhere... ;P Anyway, I don't think anything I've described is "an edge case". Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 0:43
  • 1
    Argument by Puppy, yes. Curses, you're on to me...
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 1:32
  • @Shog9: You cannot defeat my keen and finely-honed senses! Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 1:33
  • @Shog9: Forgot to say, re collecting data, okay then. Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 1:34
  • 18
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Looks like Shog did gauge the community opinion first and then proceeded to ignore it...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 9:40
62

It is incredibly annoying to me when I make a post, click submit, and instead of the post getting submitted, I am presented with an error message telling me that my post can't contain certain words, or that it's too short, or that there's something otherwise wrong with it.

Every time you add a new rule that prevents you from submitting a post, your UX becomes more clunky and overall worse.

I don't think that the benefits of preventing people from saying -1 [reason] outweigh the UX cost of adding another annoying rule to follow so that your comment gets actually submitted instead of seeing some error message.

You're not forced to post a "-1" comment anyway. If you want to tell somebody that you down-voted, it should be your prerogative.

1
  • "my post can't contain certain words" and then it doesn't even tell you which words, because then you might find a way around the block
    – endolith
    Commented Sep 26, 2015 at 1:07
33

-1 I just ran into this on the live site, fortunately throwing tags around it beats the regex, which make it more visible. Compare:

  • +1 This is ok.
  • -1 Still ok
  • -1 So much emphasis on the -1 but still ok
  • -1 Can't post this.

Sometimes its worth saying why its being downvoted. We are working in a text based environemnt and lose all tone to the meaning. "-1" isn't a phrase its tone and context. For example,

  • This won't work with version X
  • -1 This won't work with version X

I'm ambivalent in the first comment, but annoyed in he second - and I'm allowed to be annoyed damn it!

In conclusion:

  • -1 This suggestion was pushed through to quickly without time to evaluate or consider the ramifications.
3
  • 5
    +1 still works even after they've banned +1
    – k_g
    Commented Feb 22, 2015 at 19:34
  • 1
    Then i guess -|-1 and ㅡ1 should work fine.
    – user11655044
    Commented Jan 5, 2020 at 18:12
  • @user11655044 great... -|-1
    – user12785770
    Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 4:58
30

This is really a bad idea.

+1 and -1 are shorthand ways to say "I have upvoted this" and "I have downvoted this". The minimum comment length restriction guarantees it is always accompanied by further text which we use to let the author of the post know why we voted thus. I believe no other form of feedback to the post author is more accurate. I want to let the post author know that not only I disagree with what they said; I disagreed with they said because of some reason, which I can then explain. This can actually help them to make their posts better.

Now that this has been implemented already, a message that could be clearly stated this way:

-1; that opens your system to SQL injection, use parameters instead;

...has to be stated like this:

I have downvoted your post because that opens your system to SQL injection, use parameters instead.

Which is more convoluted, and makes lengthier comments more prone to TL;DR.

The alternative, suppressing the -1 remark:

That opens your system to SQL injection, use parameters instead;

Sounds to my ears (reads to my eyes?) as:

That opens your system to SQL injection, but whatever man just do what you want.

By the way, the icing on the cake is this comment from David Schwartz:

... when I (anonymously) downvoted this question, a little blue tooltip encouraged me to explain to you why. Do you see the irony here?

6
  • 1
    If you were on the receiving end of that comment, and the comment said "That opens your system to SQL injection..." would you treat it as less important because it's not attached to a downvote? Also, the "little blue tooltip" does not say "explain why you downvoted", it says "leave a comment".
    – user3717023
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 19:36
  • 2
    @Rafflesiaarnoldii if I did not know what a SQL injection is, I would be more likely to find out what it is if a downvote were indicated in the comment, yes. I always look for comments that start with +1 and -1 first, because those are the best feedback - specially the negative ones. I mentally mark anything else as either a) someone asking for further clarification; b) something that should go on chat. If you tell me that something on the code is wrong (i.e.: SQL Injection vulnerabilities), but don't downvote it, you are telling me that it is not anything important enough to worry about.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 20:07
  • 11
    “That opens your system to SQL injection, use parameters instead” is the right comment to leave. Or even “Do not use that code! It opens your system to SQL injection, use parameters instead.” Your vote isn't the important thing, the insecure code is. Critique the post for the sake of its readers, not just for the sake of its author. Commented Nov 21, 2014 at 0:19
  • 1
    @Gilles where I live the traffic authority kept telling people to wear seatbelts for ages. People knew why they had to, but they wouldn't anyway, and this had a high cost in public health that could otherwise be avoided. Once people started getting fined for not wearing seat belts, though (click it or ticket), the number of deaths and broken spines fell sharply. Applying this philosophy here, the deaths and broken spines are vulnerable code, and the fines are downvotes. See my point now?
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented Nov 21, 2014 at 13:06
  • 2
    @Renan No, I don't see your point. We seem to be in full agreement that you should downvote the post. What we're discussing is saying “I downvoted because …”. The analogy breaks down because one the one side there's an entity with authority (the state), on the other side there's an entity without authority (a voter/commenter). Since you are not a person in authority, and conversely you don't owe the author anything, you shouldn't engage in a discussion of the appropriateness of your vote, but focus on the technical problem. Commented Nov 21, 2014 at 15:05
  • @Gilles I think you're missing Renan's point, and have weighed in at the end of my answer.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 13:27
24

I don't think this solves the problem. Fixating on the voting is essentially fixation on the disagreement of the post. Especially when it is the answerer who is flagging comments with -1.

Downvotes are anonymous, but aren't comments there to allow people to voice concerns or point out flaws? I am not sure that there is much difference between

-1, doesn't work with most of Y

versus

I fully disagree with your answer, because X will not work with almost all Y situations.


late edit

The new version of this only applies to comments which are less than 120 characters long. I think that allows for both the explanation of the vote, and some freedom in using the +1 convention that most people are accustomed to.

More info is available at Shog9's answer with regards to the change.

3
  • 17
    The difference is the later one is TLDR;
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 14:07
  • And it's allowed...
    – Cullub
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 21:05
  • @cullub - I noticed that a few days ago :)
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 21:11
22

I propose a medium to this. Instead of a full out block, how about something that detects "-1" or "I downvoted" and similar that instead just gives a warning with the following wording:

Putting "-1" or "I downvoted" in a comment can lead to revenge downvotes on your profile, and are generally noise. You may want to reword your comment to state only what is wrong with the post, and not that you downvoted.

I think this would give enough of a warning without discouraging downvotes and without flat-out blocking the phrases.

iCodez makes an added great suggestion in the comments. This could be even better if it's rep limited, so regular users aren't as bothered by it. I'd suggest either that, or for the first n comments of a user after this is implemented.

12
  • 8
    +1 for the general idea, but I think that the warning should be disabled after a certain reputation threshold. Users who have been on the site for awhile know this and will find the warning annoying. It should only be active for new users.
    – user2555451
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:53
  • 3
    @iCodez It might be better to show it to everyone when it's first implemented. I'm sure there are some users that have been around a while and haven't yet realized that this is a bad idea. But after that, yes, a reputation threshold might be a good idea.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:54
  • 1
    Good point. Maybe the warning should become inactive after you see it a few times then. My point is it should go away after a while. Seeing every time you put -1 in a post is just annoying.
    – user2555451
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:57
  • 3
    When do you warn someone writing a comment, @Kendra? Unlike posts, there's often no pause between typing out the text and submitting it - and I don't know that pop-ups while you're typing are particularly nice.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:57
  • "can lead to revenge downvotes on your profile" is neither the main point we're trying to address, nor one I really want to bring up. We don't condone revenge downvoting, and it gets reversed if you're aggressive about it, so there's no reason to bring it up here. The point we should communicate is about noise. And for that reason, I think any implementation should address both +1 and -1 comments.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:00
  • 1
    @Shog Without knowing for sure how comment submit works, it is hard to say. Just a suggestion. I personally wouldn't mind a pop-up that comes up beside the textbox while I'm typing, so long as it doesn't cause the textbox to lose focus.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:00
  • @Laura That wording was in response to this comment made on JasonC's answer. Actual wording could be different, maybe similar to Rafflesia arnoldii's answer.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:01
  • 2
    You know how comment submission works, @Kendra - you've been submitting comments here! Either you hit "enter" at the end of the comment, or you click the "add comment" button; either way, there's no pause where the system knows you're done typing.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:04
  • @Shog9 I meant server side. Without seeing the exact code, or hearing it from you, I didn't know if there was a possible spot to stop the submit and pop up a warning.
    – Kendra
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:04
  • 12
    @Shog9 There's a script there tracking the number of characters. Once 15 is reached (or maybe even 10, since you are looking at the beginning of comment), fire the check for +1 -1.
    – user3717023
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:19
  • @Shog: "Unlike posts, there's often no pause between typing out the text and submitting it" That's how it should be but, between this new block, the 15-second auto-resetting anti-flood timer and a few other immensely annoying filters, it's certainly not how it really is. At all! Commented Dec 12, 2014 at 16:54
  • 2
    The danger of revenge downvotes is exaggerated. I downvote and comment quite often (usually without a -1 but with obviously related timing) and rarely if ever get them. Commented Dec 17, 2014 at 16:10
19

In addition to the reasons already given, this would needlessly block comments starting with -1 that aren't about votes. For example, a comment about a return value might looks like "-1 means the flux capacitor isn't working".

4
  • 6
    After the problems with the flux capacitor are fixed, you may never have made that comment in the first place. (mind blown)
    – Jason C
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:26
  • 1
    *a -1 means the flux capacitor isn't working". Problem solved. Though, I still don't believe it's a necessary "solution".
    – codeMagic
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:26
  • 7
    FWIW, this is the current pattern I'm matching: ^\s*[+-]1\D - note that it allows things like, "-100 is the default score for all new feature-requests"
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 19:30
  • 3
    -2 There are still work arounds.
    – user764357
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 22:37
18

If you just want to avoid revenge downvoting, then you can allow people to anonymously leave a comment with their downvote.

That way, people will be able to explain why they down-voted without fear of retaliation

I've suggested this before, and although it has received a lot of criticism, just about every piece of criticism that I've ever heard on this issue is really easy to solve.

  • "But people should be allowed to downvote without comment": Just make the downvote comment optional.
  • "But that will allow people to abuse the anonymous comment": Just make it anonymous to the general public, and let moderators see who posted it. Make it flag-able too.

This will not only make it more "safe" to explain downvotes, but in doing so, it will probably result in more downvote explanations than we would otherwise have had.

It won't solve the problem of making downvotes "more real" to the original poster than just numbers, but if it's just the revenge voting issue that you have trouble with, then it addresses that issue well

0
11

Shog9 has said above that what you say here will not matter.

He is announcing this here so that he isn't "sneaking this in", not because he wants feedback. To quote Shog9:

Non-blocking isn't an option, @JasonC - there's no support for comment warnings, and frankly I'm pessimistic about implementing that in a way that wouldn't be more annoying than a block. This is not the sort of change that lends itself to pre-vetting; there's an awful lot of speculation here and little else - and that includes my own opinions. If I hadn't just gone and done it, there's very little chance it would've ever gotten done. I don't know if it's gonna work, but I'll be damned if I don't find out

In short, your opinion posted here does not matter. Shog9 is going to test this, and base the result on the data generated by what the test does, not on the current opinions of SO users on the meta.

2
  • 4
    If this is the case, then putting "Naturally, I think it's a great idea. But, I've been known to be a bit reactionary after only a few years of wasting time on a problem. What do you think?" in the OP was a terrible idea ;)
    – Geobits
    Commented Nov 24, 2014 at 22:33
  • 1
    @Geobits sure. But that was before the feedback: after the feedback, in comments, Shog9 stated data would rule, not what people think about the idea. Once that data arrives, people's opinion may again matter. Commented Nov 24, 2014 at 22:38
11

To me, this is a terrible idea. It has led me to stop leaving comments when I downvote.

If depression from downvoting is the issue, then instead of stopping people from explaining why they downvoted, remove the ability to down vote.

Removing the ability to explain a reason for an action because the action upsets people is a terrible idea. It's like removing the ability for a teacher to mark which particular questions are wrong, but leaving the ability for the teacher to mark questions - i.e. you receive an exam result of 80%, but never know what you got wrong. Questions were marked wrong, but not explicitly.

3
  • 4
    The point is that comments should be about the post itself, how to improve it or similar, not about votes which are separate thing. Votes rank posts (and users across the whole site), comments improve posts (and users over time). The action of voting is a means to an end and nothing more. Commented Nov 23, 2014 at 9:18
  • 5
    @Flexo comments are rarely about votes, they can (or, could) relate to votes though. Your system works for a particular subset of people, not the average person, or the general rule. If I get a down vote, I would like to know why. If someone has left a comment, say, "my grandma disagrees", is that why I was down voted? Was the commenter being serious, or simply engaging on a humourous level?
    – bharal
    Commented Nov 23, 2014 at 11:28
  • It's useful to know that the deficiency addressed by your constructive criticism (specifically) earned them at least one downvote. That information adds context. I realize that you want to strip the humanity out of the system and leave us with raw data... but there's too much human interaction for that.
    – canon
    Commented Dec 3, 2015 at 19:35
10

How about instead of offering an argument as to if they should be blocked or not, I offer a reason to encourage them instead. (though I suppose that itself is an argument for not blocking them)

If I write a comment for example:

-1: It is unclear how this fixes the issue. An explanation about the fix would help readers understand how the issue have been solved

(in this example, consider an answer that is just a big block of updated code)

In my opinion, this is a great way to encourage people to improve their posts. If they don't get an explanation then they don't know how to get rid of the downvote...

But why does it need the "-1"? (I hear you ask)...

Well, adding "-1" to the start makes the comment become a distinct link between downvote and reason. This would suggest to the user that if they want to get the downvote retracted then they just need to make the suggested changed... which may also lead to the downvote changing to an upvote.

Bottom line: Let's keep the -1 tradition and even use it more often to encourage posts to be improved.

9

Since no one has done this yet to give a nice, clear view of the results Shog linked to, I decided to give this a go myself.

In terms of retaining "+/-1" in some form

I took all the comments that were available in those results and went through them. First, I removed anything that wasn't a "+/-1" comment. Following that, I went through and checked each "Posted" comment for one of the following:

  • +/-1 still at the front through some "hack" method
  • +/-1 at the back
  • Author stating they up/downvoted

There were a few phrases that I was undecided on counting as a "I voted this way" comment, such as "Good answer" and "Applause." As such, I did two counts. The first count gives this total:

Total With Workaround:  97
Total Without Workaround:   201

As you can see, a vast majority of the commenters appear to have removed their voting indication. Now, if we include "Good/Fantastic Answer/Question", "Great/Good Stuff", "Approval", "Applause", "Well done", and "I agree", we get a more balanced total:

Total Yes with "Good Answer":   112 
Total No without "Good Answer": 186 

These results are still a little skewed, however. I counted any commenter who "gave up" on posting as a "No." These are the numbers on that:

Total that gave up: 70
Total that didn't:  228

Now, factoring that into account, I took a look at the total number of comments in both of my original two counts that were posted without a form of "+/-1", out of 228 that did end up posting a comment overall.

Total Comments that removed +/-1 (Not counting "Good Answer" as +1) 131 
Total Comments that removed +/-1/"Good Answer" And Similar          116

In terms of usefulness

Let's look at this data in a different way. I have interpreted one of the reasons for doing this as to try to cut down on "noisy" comments. Keeping this in mind, I went through each comment that was posted and looked at how useful they would be.

To judge this in the least subjective way I could, I read through each of the comments that were posted and, using what little context given from the results page, evaluated for comments that were:

  1. Asking for clarification
  2. Critiquing a post/Letting the OP know what they should add or what is wrong
  3. Evaluated for comments adding links to additional resources.

If the comment only gave a message of "Thanks", "Me too", or "Good answer" they were counted as not useful.

Total useful, removed +/-1:    76
Total non-useful, removed +/-1:    40
Total useful, kept +/-1:    34
Total non-useful, kept +/-1:    78

Note that these are only the comments that were posted. Of them, about 52% were not useful according to the guidelines I used. Of the ones that kept the "+/-1" in some way (including "Good Answer" and similar), about 30% were useful by my set guidelines.

Looking at those numbers, it seems that the comments that removed the "+/-1" were overall more useful. But what about the comments that never got posted? I took a look at that as well.

Total useful, gave up:  9
Total non-useful, gave up:  61

As we can see, an astonishing 87% of these comments would have been not useful. However, I found six that appeared to just be testing this block. If we removing these six, making the not useful total 55/64, the percentage is 86%.

TL;DR:

Looking at the percentages:

  • If we don't count "Good Answer" and the other, similar, remarks, about 57% of the comments removed their "+/-1" phrasing.
  • If we count "Good Answer" and similar, the rate becomes about 51%.
  • Overall, out of the 298 "+/-1" comments that were attempted, about 23% of the commenters just gave up and didn't leave their feedback while about 44% (about 39% if including the "Good Answer" style comments as "+1") removed their "+/-1" and about 33% (about 38% if including the "Good Answer" style comments as "+1") simply worked around the block.
  • Of the comments posted after hitting the block, roughly half were useful, and roughly half were not.
  • Of the comments that were not posted after hitting the block, the vast majority of them were not useful in any shape.
9
  • 1
    It seems misleading to include "+1 good answer" comments in here since they were already officially discouraged and most of the critics here are complaining about the fact that they are being instructed not to explain downvotes and hindered from doing so. I just looked only at -1 comments and found: 26 useful downvote-explaining comments tweaked to bypass the filter; 9 fakes to test the filter; 8 useful downvote-explaining comments abandoned; 3 crap insulting comments abandoned; 1 crap comment entirely rewritten to be constructive.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:02
  • So, while I remain against the filter entirely (why should I have my expression restricted because I used a term that tends to correlate with crapness?), if we want to use the data-driven noise-reduction philosophy you're applying, a smart compromise would seem to be permitting -1s while banning +1s. Of course, while that might please you, and placate me, it defeats precisely the stated purpose of this change which is to stop people explicitly explaining downvotes (something most of us think is useful, but Shog apparently does not). Data ain't gonna solve this argument.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:09
  • @MarkAmery If this block was intended to stop only the "-1" comments, or at least make them more productive, then I would have looked at just the "-1" comments. It is also worth mentioning that people have also argued here that they use "+1" comments to point out "Hey, good answer, but you missed..." instead of just correcting an answerer without implying the answer is already decent. I went through each and every comment and read them for such statements, and there were "+1" comments like that. If you'd like, I can go back and break that down further to see for sure.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:11
  • @MarkAmery "Data ain't gonna solve this argument." That is entirely correct. Data won't solve this, and likely will never completely change the minds of some of the louder voices here, but it can support whether or not this ban has had any sort of positive effect or not.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:14
  • @MarkAmery Ah, I see your point now. I think in light of your argument, I'll go back and break down usefulness based on "+1, -1" just to add that here. You may be entirely right that the "-1" comments are far more useful overall, as I hadn't considered to look at that.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:17
  • 1
    part of the trouble is that the positive effect you're looking for (noise reduction) isn't the one Shog says he cares about, and the harms that the rest of us care about (pointless nuisance as people have to rewrite comments; losing useful information about what caused downvoting) either are incompletely measured here or, in the latter case, not seen by Shog as a harm. The conflict boils down to a difference in goals, not in beliefs about the effects of the filter. My criticism of an evidence-based approach to the title filter was similar (meta.stackexchange.com/a/188799/200582).
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:21
  • @MarkAmery That "positive effect" was pulled more from other SE team members commenting on the topic than what Shog said. It's clear to me that Shog wasn't the only one who weighed in on this programming change, and it's also clear that other SE team members support the idea. Flexo made his own answer here to point out what he believes this will do in the way of good. As for losing "useful information", that was the point of even bothering to weigh the usefulness of the comments that were abandoned, the majority of which were not useful by the guidelines I give here.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:32
  • @MarkAmery (cont.) It is also worth noting that I looked at two different metrics of how useful this block has been, getting people to remove the indication of a vote and usefulness of the comment. Since we were given what was blocked and the end result that was posted to view and look at, that makes it far easier to see if information was lost or not, to see if a post became useful or not useful after being blocked.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 18:34
  • Now we just need statistics on the number of people who ragequit using the site for the day after being annoyed by this, or who posted less good content, or more annoyed content, after having encountered this automatic block...
    – Dronz
    Commented Dec 17, 2014 at 21:09
9

-1.

These comments are frequently useful because they explain downvotes.

Explaining downvotes is good. By that I don't merely mean that offering up the criticism that led you to downvote is good, but that the criticism should be explicitly connected to the downvote. I thought this was a well-established good practice here; there's a Meta thread with 580 upvotes about encouraging people to explain downvotes, for goodness' sake. People frequently get justifiably upset by drive-by downvoters; they're happy to be criticised and receive the slap in the face of a downvote on one of their posts, but they want to know why somebody felt it was deserved. Now you're trying to ban that explanation, despite the fact that it's both frequently constructive and regardless - in my eyes - basic courtesy. This irritates me.

Yes, I realise you can write "I downvoted" instead. But that's just working around the spirit of the rule and wasting an extra second of your and every reader's time as well; if that's to be encouraged, the ban shouldn't exist at all.

For example, here are the most recent comments of mine in which I've mentioned voting:

  1. On a question about the meaning of a status code...

    +​1, this is all accurate and "some sort of error occurred" is the practical interpretation. For people interested in a comprehensive list of possible causes given by the spec, I have posted a breakdown at [link to my answer on another question].

    If I were to 'expand out' the +1 here to the meaning it conveys, I would've had to write much more:

    I wish to stress that I consider this answer useful and that my posting of a related link that addresses the question in more detail should not be construed as a criticism thereof; this is all accurate and "some sort of error occurred" is the practical interpretation. For people interested in a comprehensive list of possible causes given by the spec, I have posted a breakdown at [link to my answer on another question].

    but nobody wants to read that, so I abused a zero-width space and posted +1 instead.

  2. On this answer:

    You may feel this absurdly pedantic, but -1 for "it isn't a tag". It's not clear what you mean by this, and PHP doesn't agree with you - they call it the T_CLOSE_TAG.

    Firstly, you filter didn't catch me because I didn't lead with -1. Yay, I guess, although I'm not clear on why the position of the -1 matters. But if I were to follow the guidance of not mentioning how I've voted, while still being explicitly critical of the post, I'd have to write some crap like

    You may feel this absurdly pedantic, but I feel it is worth clearly and publicly criticising the confusing claim that "it isn't a tag". It's not clear what you mean by this, and PHP doesn't agree with you - they call it the T_CLOSE_TAG.

    Stop making me write sentences when they were being clearly packed into a two-character shorthand before. :(

  3. On a post about generating cryptographically secure random numbers:

    A tentative -1. You claim without evidence that os.urandom is insufficiently random to be secure while OpenSSL (e.g. via M2Crypto) is better. Meanwhile @ramirami claims (also without evidence) that in fact both use the same underlying entropy source. I don't know who is right, but I'm downvoting anyway; I dislike FUD and the bold claim here (that os.urandom uses, or may use on some platforms, a worse source of entropy than OpenSSL, to the point that the former is cryptographically broken in contexts where the latter is secure) needs substantiating to be useful.

    Once again, your filter wouldn't've caught me, but your policy clearly encompasses this. To be compliant with the "don't mention how you voted rule", I guess I'd have to write:

    I tentatively regard this as a bad answer. You claim without evidence that os.urandom is insufficiently random to be secure while OpenSSL (e.g. via M2Crypto) is better. Meanwhile @ramirami claims (also without evidence) that in fact both use the same underlying entropy source. I don't know who is right, but I consider the answer to be unhelpful regardless; I dislike FUD and the bold claim here (that os.urandom uses, or may use on some platforms, a worse source of entropy than OpenSSL, to the point that the former is cryptographically broken in contexts where the latter is secure) needs substantiating to be useful.

    except that, oh shit, I've just gone over the character limit by pointlessly unpacking the implicit information that stating how I voted was already giving far more succinctly. I guess I'd have to lose minutes refactoring the comment above to fit under the limit.

I don't see how anyone could regard the reformulations above as improvements on the original comments. Firstly, they're more verbose without conveying more information, which is bad. Secondly, the people getting downvoted, in the latter formulation, are no longer given a clear connection between the vote they received and the criticism of their post, which means they have less incentive to fix the problem.

In a comment discussion on another answer here, Renan compares downvotes with explanation to the police fining people for not wearing seatbelts, observing that in many countries simply advising people to wear seatbelts was not sufficient to make them change their behaviour, but punishment was. Gilles then spectacularly misses the point by objecting that both downvoting and technical criticism are still allowed.

But a sensible system of punishment-based-incentives has to connect the offence to the punishment to be effective. This policy change amounts from going from a system where the police officer tells you "I'm fining you $100 for not wearing your seatbelt. You should wear your seatbelt because it reduces your chance of death or paralysis in an accident." to a system in which the police officer tells you "You should wear your seatbelt because it reduces your chance of death or paralysis in an accident." and then a few days later you come home to find an apparently unrelated bill from a bureaucrat reading "We're fining you $100 just cause we darn well feel like it, sucker!" Whether or not either the advice or the punishment are justified, it's strictly worse to stop the recipient from associating them with each other; it just renders the punishment pointless and hurtful rather than constructive.

4
  • While I find your argument well written and thought out, after looking at the results Shog linked to in the question, I found that about half of the comments that actually got posted were not useful, as in did not give information regarding improvements to the post. (I outline my criteria in an answer here, along with other data.) I also found that most of the comments the commenter gave up on because of the block were not useful according to the same criteria. So this block has actually assisted in preventing some unuseful comments, which was part of the goal as I understand it.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 1, 2014 at 17:33
  • @Kendra I think we all understood the numbers already. There is no arguing that what were originally considered useless comments had a reduction in their inflow. The point I'm trying to make (and I believe Mark thinks along these same lines) is that the comments that you and Shog9 call useful are... well, less useful to a lot of people. I love feedback; But if it takes me time and effort to first find out whether it was positive feedback or negative feedback, I am less inclined to find it useful.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented Dec 3, 2014 at 16:03
  • MaybePlusOne. In addition to your examples, I'd say answerers can generally work out (sometimes wrongly) who may have downvoted them based on the comment and downvote timestamps. Then, if someone leaves a slightly negative comment (perhaps a mistake they consider minor, not sufficient to downvote) and someone else downvotes, there can be revenge downvote on the wrong person, which is even worse.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 12:47
  • A -1 answer....
    – user12785770
    Commented Jan 30, 2020 at 4:59
8

I hate this idea. One of my favorite uses for +1 is when I generally find an answer useful, but I see room for improvement. Something like "+1, but blah blah blah is wrong. It should be blah blah blah" It is a very short hand way of giving kudos, while still providing constructive criticism.

4
  • 6
    Votes themselves are the way to give kudos, comments are the way to give constructive criticisms and there's no reason to try and artificially make the two intersect. Commented Nov 21, 2014 at 22:40
  • 2
    @Flexo, I've never heard that comments were restricted to criticisms. Sometimes an answer deserves both, so why not keep them together? Perhaps for an experienced poster, no big deal, but a new user might be less discouraged receiving a criticism that way.
    – dbenham
    Commented Nov 21, 2014 at 22:54
  • 5
    If you're going to upvote an answer, then do so. Posting a comment that says "+1 good job" is fairly irrelevant. It's noise. It is nice and heartwarming, but no future readers care because it's meaningless to them. Therefore, noise. ("blah blah blah is wrong. It should be blah blah blah" is a reasonable comment on its own, too.)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Nov 22, 2014 at 2:42
  • 8
    "+1, but blah blah blah is wrong. It would be blah blah blah" and "blah blah blah is wrong. It would be blah blah blah" don't mean the same thing. For answers that have both upvotes and downvotes (and many answers get downvotes even if there's nothing wrong with them, some folks just like to downvote), the latter is likely to get a response of "fine, I'll fix it, but seriously, downvoting just for that? sheesh." even though the person posting the comment isn't even one who downvoted. Even if that response isn't actually posted, it is what people will think. Try not to make people feel bad.
    – user743382
    Commented Nov 29, 2014 at 10:25
7

If a person wants to argue about the fact that I voted him down or up is not my fault.

I thought we encourage people to explain why they vote with constructive criticism, seeing a banner like this just makes me go "Okay then, no need for a comment".

I think there's a much more fundamental problem here that is unavoidable as part of the gaming architecture of Stack Exchange, people will get hurt if their magical internet points get hurt.

As long as I'm leaving constructive criticism in addition to my vote down, I don't see why I should be limited in what I can say.

0
5

I'm somewhat on board with this, as I feel that comments of that nature really don't add much to the conversation. It won't stop anyone from doing it if they so desire (as demonstrated in other answers), but it's a start.

That said, if you want these sorts of comments to go away, then there's a missing piece to it.

Automatically delete any comment of the +/-1 nature that is flagged as "not constructive".

We've already got a similar check in for comments that contain little more than "What have you tried". If you want to see a reduction in these sorts of comments, then I feel adding this extra piece would be hugely beneficial.

5
  • 3
    Someone else suggested this too; I tend to think it's worth a separate discussion - while it would certainly do a lot for getting rid of these, I'm not sure it would actually discourage them or encourage better comments in their stead.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 3:38
  • 4
    I think the delete automatism for this is.. the wrong way to go about it. Such comments are in my experience mostly constructive or useful trivia. The only way such comments get into a "delete-worthy" area is obsoleteness.
    – Vogel612
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 14:31
  • 2
    Too many comments are already permanently nuked even when they contain useful critique or information that has yet to be absorbed into the post itself. This is a stupid idea. No offence. Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 11:17
  • I disagree with this answer and downvoted it. Yes, many comments are not helpful but trying to identify by a simple text match rule is just silly - you will only get a few hits. For example with "What have you tried"? - reformulating it makes it sound better, but does not improve the meaning. If anything we need guidelines and a automatic review system. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 10:17
  • @Trilarion: I'm not reviewing comments. That's just a waste of time (since they're temporal).
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 17:20
5

-1. I often use comments like that to tell the OP not just that I didn't like it, but that that kind of question/answer is liable to be downvoted.

Stack Exchange always says to explain your downvote. It seems more intuitive to mention the fact that this is an explanation of the downvote in the comment, than to leave it out.


EDIT: I just ran into this issue with a comment:

-1, SO is not a write-my-code-for-me site.

I just moved the -1 to the end, and it didn't bother me.

Is it really going to make a difference to force it at the end?

3
  • 14
    That's, uh, kind of a terrible comment; folks write code here all the time. I know what you meant by it, but are you sure the person you're addressing did?
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:28
  • 1
    Yeah, that one wasn't my best comment. I left a clarifying followup. Anyways, regardless of the specific example, does moving it to the end really help so much?
    – Scimonster
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:30
  • Hard to say... But it might: folks around here tend to read left to right. If the rest of your comment is constructive and informative, there's a reasonable chance it'll be read before the bit that isn't.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 19, 2014 at 20:35
3

I think that the Internet world is too easily influenced by Facebook,

General progression of thought process when encountering a question/answer good or bad.

I like that answer

"where is the like button"

"oh here is an upvote button"

"This is better than Facebook, I can tell the person they are a total loser and downvote"

"And I can tell them off in a comment!"

"StackExchange, where have you been all my life?"

Gaming the system occurs on facebook even, but it is not anonymous,

  • Rage Liking is when everyone likes a post because everyone else liked a post.

But no one will know it was you that downvoted on Stackexchange unless you comment and tell them.


The message should be a FAQ or Help Page for Downvoting or whatever, letting people know that this is not facebook, if you downvote because of something that can be fixed, please comment how it can be fixed and get your upvote.

Don't comment with

+1 I like....

That is a lame comment

If you can't expand on the concept in the question or answer, then don't comment because it will cause clutter.

On Code Review, Moderators are pretty good at keeping the comments section on topic and uncluttered.

3
  • 4
    plus one for shameless CR plug (Go MODS!). <-- Purposeful example of a non-useful comment.
    – xDaevax
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 15:03
  • 3
    Fake plus one for plus one comment, since I used up all my comment plus ones here!! Also completely agree with go MODS!
    – Vogel612
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 15:11
  • 5
    someone downvoted and didn't leave me a "-1 for ..." comment. that isn't right
    – Malachi
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 15:23
3

Neutral versions and mildly provocative versions:

  • "Point A needed for clarity", "I disagree on point B",
  • "-1: point A needed.", "-1: because of point B"

If just a couple of extra characters are needed to turn that "-1" to a neutral version of it, so be it.

Why most users disagree that this cost is negligible compared to the "several days of moderation saved" that you mention here? Perhaps they are used to communicating with "+-1" as mentioned by others, or they actually enjoy bickering every once in a while. We are humans after all, we sometimes enjoy fighting. This is not the place to do so; there are more appropriate places like youtube comments!


"But most people disagree. "

So what?! Since when popularity is a measure of reason? Hitler was popular, he was actually elected.

Popularity means nothing. All that matters is efficiency. Reduced moderation for a couple of extra characters per user comment, is a very good trade.


Perhaps prohibiting "-1" in comments is not enough on its own, perhaps some stubborn passive aggressive users will try to circumvent any measures taken. For the majority of cases though, i believe there can be an effective system, that will discourage them from seeding flamewars.

1

From the tracked results:

Attempted: +1 This is the correct answer. I’ll delete mine as soon as the OP marks this as accepted.

Posted: Plus 1 - This is the correct answer. I’ll delete mine as soon as the OP accepts this answer.

So one can see that +1 is very typical phrase indicating a strong approval. It's perfectly harmless in this context. A nice gesture actually.

There is no reason to censor it (unless we start voting on the usefulness of comments) because there is no reason to censor approval anyway.

As for the -1, I actually never do it. I rather write more concrete statements saying what I really do not like. A simple "-1" without further ado would actually be inappropriate. But since you can circumvent a simple "-1" block so easily, any censoring seems futile.

And many people actually give up when seeing the blocking message. This is even detrimental.

Therefore I think that shog actually harms the development of SO by introducing this rule. It deters some from commenting at all and it looks like unjust censoring to others demotivating them.

-7

-1.

This is still a bad idea for the very important (though inexplicably ignored) reason that it contradicts the message we are sending when people press the downvote button:

Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved.

Whenever I get downvotes, I want to see the reason why people are downvoting them. I want to improve my post based on other people's feedback, but your comment rules are steering them away from that feedback.

4
  • 2
    Please see: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/285081/…
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 21, 2017 at 20:31
  • 1
    @Shog9, the fact that said question exists is perfect proof for my point: your UX is driving people away from the beneficial behavior of explaining downvotes.
    – NH.
    Commented Nov 21, 2017 at 20:37
  • 5
    @NH. Except that the behavior ends up not actually being beneficial a very large portion of the time, and is in fact very often harmful. The times that it's helpful end up being the exceptions, not the typical cases. Heck, even looking at one of your own downvoted posts with comments explaining why it's problematic, you only ever commented to complain about people downvoting and to attack people for downvoting you, rather than taking the feedback on the quality of your post constructively and trying to improve it or address the problems.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 21, 2017 at 20:39
  • 2
    FWIW, the % of folks who comment when downvoting is higher now (~16%) than it was when I implemented this (~15%). There was a dip immediately after, but it rebounded when I improved the guidance.
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 21, 2017 at 20:53
-24

This is a great idea in principle because:

  1. Direct explicit voting info serves no positive purpose and can never possibly serve any constructive purpose (unlike the actual reasoning)
  2. Eliminates an awkward class of "not constructive" comment flags that people like to raise. (Editing comments to remove "-1" is not worth the effort, but the flag is both correct and incorrect simultaneously otherwise)
  3. Will hopefully reduce the quantity of pointless bickering that occurs in comments

I think rather than a hard block I'd be inclined to treat it similarly to the way redundant '@poster' is treated when they're already implicitly notified - remove it on submission and carry on, with a warning message that discussing votes directly is unhelpfully distracting fluff.

3
  • 6
    There will always be pointless bickering when one can express their views anywhere. That's the nature of things. Explicit voting info serves the purpose of explicitly stating I downvoted, because, which is a positive and at least for me constructively meant way to allow adapting, clarification requests and the like. And lastly flagging such comments as "not constructive" is IMO blatantly dumb since such comments' main purpose is constructive feedback.
    – Vogel612
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 11:16
  • 4
    "treat it similarly to the way redundant '@poster' is treated" - so remove a leading "[+-]1" and thus turn comments starting with "[+-]1 because ..." into " because ..."? Doesn't seem like you thought that one through. And completely disagree with "discussing votes directly is unhelpfully distracting fluff"; explaining downvotes is rather important.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Nov 20, 2014 at 13:40
  • I proudly stand by my downvotes. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 19:01

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