150

And happily, knowingly ignore site rules, because they get their answers.

Example:

(Click for larger image)
Interview with the Vampire

31
  • 4
    Where'd ye olde wall of comments go? Some of those had a future explaining to users why respect for the rules, and the right avenues for change, will get them far. (Not saying they shouldn't be cleaned up, but at least a link to go see them would be better than gone)
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 0:21
  • 37
    I will comment that I routinely downvote answers to "write the code for me" questions, when the answers fulfill the OP's desire. Simple off-topic questions I'm a bit more tolerant of, though.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 1:21
  • 27
    I am torn on some of those "write the code for me" posts. I get suckered into them because I think first: "hm, maybe they may need help..."; but after pouring in the work to correct and explain where they went astray all I feel is burned out. Some of my best answers went to 5 or less rep new members who didn't bother to change their alias from user13487628, and didn't have the patience to click for an accepted answer (see this example from SO... Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 10:14
  • 5
    @Ben Voigt: Those are things that do not need to be explained to reasonable people, and will be ignored by the rest. Having them around would be preaching to the choir at best, noise at worst. Nothing of value was lost there.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 11:04
  • 14
    I'm beginning to wonder if the asker's name in your example image shouldn't be censored to avoid the meta-effect traffic this question appears to be driving. Not that the questions don't deserve the downvotes, but there's already some serial downvoting going on and that's not helping anyone. Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:59
  • 3
    @HenryKeiter: rather than the name alone, I think it's more a direct link to the question that makes it easier to vote. Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 14:08
  • 8
    I agree with Enjoys Math to be honest. Everyone is just looking for help no need to be so literal about the rules Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 15:00
  • 30
    @SamCreamer: This site has a mission statement. I suggest you read it. If you don't agree with it, go somewhere where you agree. We are not changing it because people come here and demand being helped. This is not a personal debug/help site. Also relevant for this issue: xkcd.com/1357
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 10:01
  • 4
    @SamCreamer: to put that another way, the site can't entirely stop you helping people. Don't draw attention if you ignore site rules/guidelines to that end. Don't complain about any downvotes you get from people trying to enforce that the site should not help people in the ways you help them. Nobody is going to get banned from the site any time soon just for honestly answering off-topic questions, just don't expect your answer to be preserved. The original questioner will see if they're fast enough, so if all you care about is them: mission accomplished even if you're later deleted. Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 11:48
  • 23
    @Sam: You're overlooking something. The style of answers that question received were exactly the raison d'être for that rule in the first place. What's completely inappropriate was EnjoysMath's attitude that a completely different set of rules apply to him. He didn't even try explaining why his question should be an exception, or understand the rationale and demonstrate that his question avoided the harm in some other way. No, he simply started calling everyone bigots and Nazis. You defend that?
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 15:05
  • 3
    @SamCreamer: I did. And I also provided some high-level suggestions of how he could make it an on-topic question. Which is what tons of Metizens beg for "Don't shut down the user without letting them know their question is fixable and how".
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 15:12
  • 4
    @SamCreamer: "I don't think the stack repository is filled with tons of crap" then probably someone should start and open your eyes. Go through this list stackoverflow.com/… and tell me the majority of them are completely valid.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 15:15
  • 5
    I feel continuously frustrated when I ask a question and everyone rush to put it on hold pretending it is off-topic. It is kinda like a sport (it even happened today ). I think one should also consider that everyone who struggle to phrase its question according to the rules is not always a ninja noob, even more when you have limited vocabulary because english is not your mother language. Every time it happens you have to reword and wait forever that they re-open it (which is quite not as fast as the close)
    – Aldian
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 16:51
  • 6
    @Aldian: Then you should be extremely concerned about users like the one under discussion here, who responds to advice about his question with mockery and name-calling. Because the more of our top users have to deal with characters like EnjoysMath, the less likely they are to leave helpful comments for you. The off-topic rules don't need to change (at least not for fearing of hurting some new poster's feelings). New posters who run afoul of the rules should politely put in the time to make their question better according to the advice, and...
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 17:15
  • 6
    I'm of two minds about this. Often I'll post a "Welcome to Stack Overflow!" comment, explaining that we're not here to do their homework for them. If I'm feeling a bit grumpy I'll make it a bit more "pointed" and tell them that some people will do their homework so that OP will learn nothing, flunk their course, and never bother us again. And if I'm in a particularly foul mood I'll give them exactly what they asked for - complete, correct, and done using features a beginner would never use. Serves 'em right...and I get to practice using some esoteric language features. Serves 'em right... Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 10:56

5 Answers 5

147

The correct method of dealing with any question which is off-topic, is to vote to close it.
The correct method of dealing with any question which lacks research effort is to downvote it.

This question appears to need closing and downvoting. Doing this will eventually get the poster question banned - just do what you would naturally do and don't worry about it. The fact that they're proud of their vamping is irrelevant - always vote on the post not the person and the post will then be dealt with correctly.

Please note that going through someone's posts and downvoting them all isn't wise. Your votes will be reversed and you could be banned for serial downvoting.

23
  • 101
    The problem is that the post that should be closed and downvoted was instead answered (three times) and upvoted, until the meta effect kicked in. Clearly these tools aren't sufficient to deal with this problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 20:55
  • 6
    @Servy - perhaps the problem is with an incorrect definition of what is off-topic. Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 21:38
  • 10
    @ChrisStratton exactly, and no one gave a link to a more appropriate exchange site to post on. The question I asked is also a very common question to have, quite important before you begin a project, and not clearly answered by googling. To answer it you'd need to have experience with the various tools, which I have little of. We should just burry all the newbie "off-topic" posts so the expert programmers can get richer and richer with points and the newbies can never even begin their project because they get turned away at environment set up.
    – user1277936
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 21:51
  • 9
    @Servy: It did get downvotes to -6 and 3 or 4 close votes before I brought it to meta attention, so there was no "meta effect" needed to make moderation happen. I posted on meta not to enlist more moderation, but because this user went way beyond the typical newbie not knowing how to follow the rules that we express sympathy for.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 2, 2014 at 22:00
  • 59
    @EnjoysMath There is no "appropriate" site for that kind of question. It simply is not an answerable question. It can be discussed, but SE isn't for discussions.
    – Seth
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 0:37
  • 14
    @EnjoysMath recommendation questions that match a certain quality and format can be asked at Software Recommendations I think. Also, I think this blog post is supposed to explain why certain kinds of recommendation questions are discouraged.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 2:48
  • 3
    @justcool393 I said that the moderation actions (closing the question) occurred without requiring the meta effect. I did not say that a meta effect didn't occur later.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 6:43
  • 1
    @SJD meta.stackoverflow.com/a/251488/785241
    – Daedalus
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 9:26
  • 57
    @EnjoysMath Oh, now you are whining :). You knew the rules, you stated that. You were breaking rules intentionally. You were proud of it. But you know, anyone breaking the rules, should be ready to accept the consequences. This is how life works, sorry. I see no problem with the meta effect, the community is simply expressing their disapproval.
    – kapa
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 11:46
  • 15
    @kapa: Well, that and the fact that his comment "I break the rules all the time" outright says that many of his questions deserve close votes. Meta effect is just agreeing with him.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:50
  • 2
    @BenVoigt The question failed to be closed before it was answered. That it would have possibly been closed several hours after being posted (and also several hours after each of the three answers were posted) is still failing to close the question in time. Closing it late is better than not closing it at all, yes, but to say that the site was working properly it really would have needed to be closed before it could be answered.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:52
  • 3
    @BenVoigt My point is simply that moderation failed, which it did. The upvotes on the answer have now provided a strong incentive for this highly inappropriate behavior.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 14:05
  • 6
    Off topic questions have to be cleared out of the way, but NOT via closure: 'The current closure system doesn't work. And it is not the limited number of votes. It is the reputation system that encourages people to answer instead of vote. ...every time you mention silly questions, you get the usual meta-nursing: "these poor babies in the woods deserve an answer too! Don't you have a heart?", which makes every proposal just sink in a quicksand of coddling...'
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 14:49
  • 4
    @SJD I am. I sincerely thank you for conceding to delete the answer.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 15:25
  • 11
    @EnjoysMath "To answer it you'd need to have experience with the various tools, which I have little of.", seeing as this is a site for professional and enthusiast programmers (and assuming that's what you would like to be as well) it would be beneficial for you to get some experience with those tools. Test them out, write some simple programs, get familiar with them and you just may find the answer you're looking for. "Is this possible" is never a proper way to ask a question, because it implies you haven't tried it first.
    – Matt K
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 16:51
26

To amplify Ben's good answer:

There's always going to be a window of opportunity for people to ask questions which don't fit the Stack Overflow policy, and a window of opportunity for people to answer those questions (and possibly get upvotes). Even if Stack Overflow hired a dozen people whose full-time job is to hunt down bad questions and kill them as soon as possible, there still would be a window of opportunity for bad questions and bad answers. Until we have Minority Report levels of policing, the window will be there.

So don't sweat it.

It's really not worth it. Yes, do follow the usual channels (downvoting, close-voting, flagging, posting to meta if you're really upset about it) and then let it go. Just. Let. It. Go.

You have better uses for your time and energy. Trust me.

7
  • @PeterMortensen: I understand your edit. But what's with the comment on the usage of its versus it's? I've used the correct form, and you didn't change it. So what was the point?
    – John Y
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 16:58
  • 3
    Sorry, I couldn't help it.
    – Seth
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:00
  • @PeterMortensen: Hmm... perhaps you were "improving" someone else's suggested edit (by reverting my "It's" back to its original state)?
    – John Y
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:01
  • No, that isn't the reason apparently.
    – Seth
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:03
  • @Seth: I won't know if your video clip makes fun of me or Peter or both until I get home (Websensed at the moment and can't check it out), but I'm sure it'll be amusing. :)
    – John Y
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:09
  • @Seth: Much less amusing than I had hoped, actually. But it does remind me of the Travoltification craze, which I did find amusing.
    – John Y
    Commented Jun 7, 2014 at 0:49
  • Sorry to disappoint :(
    – Seth
    Commented Jun 7, 2014 at 2:20
22

He is right. You are wrong.

Asking questions which break the rules does get people the help they need, time after time on SO.

There is no point trying to discourage people from asking bad questions 'because they won't get the help they need'. If this were true, they would quickly find this out and stop doing it.

We need to address the reasons why people give help on crappy questions which add no benefit to the wider site. We maybe need to stop people asking those kind of questions. But we should be giving people a real justification for this, not a pretend justification.

In the words of Marlo Stanfield:

You want it to be one way. But it's the other way.

8
  • 14
    I voted this up. I think the negative response is due to the "shock value" in the first sentence. But the main point ("We need to address the reasons why people give help on crappy questions....") is a good one. I often see such answers from admins on 50k+ rep, and I think that sets a precedent . . . Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 12:02
  • 23
    "We need to address the reasons why people give help on crappy questions which add no benefit to the wider site." This: Because they get rewarded for it. There is no downside to giving duplicate answers or giving answers on questions which are later closed. Answerers should lose points if they answer a question which is later closed or downvoted below zero. They should *gain points for finding duplicates. They don't. Clearly this is what the site owners want. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/…
    – Ben
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 12:41
  • I don't disagree @Ben.
    – jwg
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 12:55
  • 5
    He is right that he gets the help he wants. He is wrong that there is no rationale for the rule, that if it simply goes against his notion of "common sense" that should be reason enough to ignore him. He is wrong that the goal of the entire site is to help him, and therefore there should be negative consequences associated with him doing everything humanly possible to get help.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 15:07
  • 3
    I probably should have gone ahead and included the followup comment in the screenshot as well, in which I warned him that SO was going to become an increasingly unfriendly place for him, if he continued on his path. (The automatic question ban in one mechanism for doing so). So while he may have been correct that his behavior had gotten him the answers he wanted in the past, he was wrong that he could continue to do so and continue expecting the same outcome.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 15:09
  • Here's the exact text of the following comment (left before starting this meta question), copied here as a service to those who can't view deleted questions: "@EnjoysMath: We have a name for people like that: Help Vampire. Please try to abide by the rules going foreword, or I'm afraid you will find SO a less and less friendly place for you."
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 15:11
  • 4
    @BenVoigt "you will find SO a less and less friendly place for you"... Are you sure? Or will he just reappear with another name?
    – Ben
    Commented Jun 5, 2014 at 16:14
  • 6
    There is even a badge for giving a highly upvoted answer on a highly downvoted question....
    – Tim B
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 8:24
-2

I think that it should be down voted. Or at least, not answered... Maximum, you ask him to write only one clear question by thread, and to show what he tried before. Else, it will end up in a chat conversation...

-11

What speaks against giving harsh penalties to answers on questions with high negative votes?

Such that

reputation_for_answerer = 10*(vote_of_answer + vote_of_question) if vote_of_question < 5

This is of course a strong simplification (ignore the numbers), but the following is the crude idea:

  • If the poster is a vampire, he should have some negative votes of the question
  • Posting answers for these people will be punished, s.t. you lose reputation if you answer a question of a vampire
  • But, if you actually put effort into your answer ("Explain not to be a vampire", try to help for future questions), the community can upvote your question and you will still be incentivized to "help" vampires, but on a proper way.
8
  • 2
    The problem with this is that "explain not to be a vampire" belongs in comments, not an answer. Put that as an answer, and it will rightly get deleted as NAA. Put that in an answer that provides technical content, and it will rightly get stripped.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:49
  • 2
    On the other hand, I could see some rep penalty working if it depends not on question votes but on some specific "vampiric" flag.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:52
  • 1
    That would mean that if the question was edited to be better - nobody would answer it. Also voters can be wrong/vindictive/unpredictable.
    – AD7six
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:53
  • 1
    It can also put off new users, that are unfamiliar with the policy and what can be subject to downvoting.
    – Davidmh
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:59
  • 6
    In fact, the best idea I can come up with is that if a question gets a "vampiric" flag from gold users in the tags, with a quorum set at sqrt(eligible voters), then upvotes on answers are worth no rep. Same as if the question got migrated away, which is what used to happen. Maybe just do that automatically for closed questions. You can spend your time helping vampires if you want, but no rewards for doing it. Good answers on questions that get marked as duplicate late would need to get migrated to the master question, if they were possibly better that existing answers on the master.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 13:59
  • It may be more acceptable if the upvotes gave less than 10 rep, but still positive. But in any case, downvoted questions get less eyeballs, so their answers will get less votes anyway.
    – Davidmh
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 14:00
  • 2
    The Reversal (gold) badge is for an answer with +20 to a question with -5. That indicates that it was not originally envisaged that people should never answer a poor question with a good answer. Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 14:20
  • @JonathanLeffler: That's why I think it may be possible to trigger it based on a special flag, and not simply downvotes.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 3, 2014 at 21:28

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