23

I get why the "accepted" answer gets the top spot on a question. It's what helped the OP the most, fastest, etc.

It seems a little off it has a score of say, 2, and another has 20. In this case both are "useful", but one was a lot better. Should the 20 score get the top spot? Maybe, but I can understand why we would leave it in this case.

However, if the accepted answer has a negative score, why does it still get the top spot? Specifically this answer https://stackoverflow.com/a/23789228/1783619 is extremely poor in quality and coding practice, and it is unclear (without significant knowledge of WPF/Binding that a novice would not likely have) what the code will do if implemented. The answer was commented on and downvoted (appropriately), but I worry that future visitors could see the question, assume that was the right answer (not paying attention to the score or comment thread) and move on.

Should we allow positive-score answers to appear first in the case of a negative-score accepted answer?

Edit Just to be clear, since this seems to be generating some spirited discussion that appears to be focused around removing the pinning entirely, I am only proposing removing the "pin" status for questions deemed by the community to be incorrect, unclear, or generally not useful (as the downvote tooltip states) by restricting it to answers with a net negative score (we could restrict to -2, -5, or whatever, but < 0 seems a reasonable condition to me).

I haven't been around that long, but from what I have seen answers rarely attract downvotes unless they have serious problems, and if they are downvoted (but are ok) the upvotes tend to balance them out. Removing the "pin" entirely would fix it as well, but that would be a logical "next step" after this is implemented and is probably a different discussion.

One final way to look at this question:

If the correct response to a poor post is "Downvote to Oblivion!", why are we handicapping ourselves by not allowing this to happen for accepted answers?

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  • 1
    Can the folks who don't pay attention and/or read several sources before committing to any particular approach really be helped?
    – Emissary
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 18:13
  • @Emissary, probably not. The optimist in me would like to think so though :) Commented May 21, 2014 at 18:15
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    Better yet, let's not give accepted answers preferential ordering: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/253754/19679
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 18:29
  • 2
    The OP is uniquely qualified to select a correct answer because the OP is the one that's actually experiencing the problem, and the OP is the one that's actually going to test the answer Commented May 21, 2014 at 18:48
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    @SamIam, unquestionably. I am not suggesting we take away "acceptance powers" from the OP (indeed, he commented saying the accepted solution worked regardless of our comments indicating dangers). Does that mean bad, or even dangerous, solutions should be pinned to the top just because the OP says they worked? (In this case I strongly suspect he didn't actually use the breaking piece because it was off-screen). Commented May 21, 2014 at 18:50
  • For the record, the negative accepted answer in that question isn't wrong, its just bad coding in most cases when working with WPF. :)
    – Rachel
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:21
  • @Rachel, The "ItemsSource={Binding}" creates highly ambiguous behavior, which is wrong as far as I'm concerned (and if it was included and the previous snippet ran in the constructor, it would have caused the desired behavior to not occur). There were of course, other problems with it as well. It did (at least sort of) work though. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:30
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    It's been a while since I've participated on this site, but I seem to recall a special case already exists with self-accepted answers -- they do not bubble to the top. I do not think it unreasonable to add another exception for answers with a score below some threshold. Perhaps it isn't precisely 0, as if there's just one vote, you really do not have enough sample size, and therein might lie the problem to any solution here. Still, you'd like to think a -2 or -3 would be sufficient to say "stay away from this, regardless of the whim of the asker." Commented May 21, 2014 at 22:36
  • @user414076, I'm definitely open to discussion on an appropriate threshold. -2 seems reasonable because 2 users have to agree (helping to remove the possibility of gaming it). Seems like a good answer! Commented May 21, 2014 at 22:41
  • Just ant to add another example. A perfectly good question, with a simply wrong accepted answer, and then a good answer below it stackoverflow.com/questions/6521354/…
    – Andrey
    Commented Dec 15, 2014 at 15:55

4 Answers 4

6

This has been asked many times... It can be a real problem, but then again so can voting - at their best, they reflect two complementary points of view, and at their worst both are meaningless.

Before considering any potential deviations to what we do now, it is important to consider that the current behavior is itself a deviation from the pure model upon which SO normally relies:

  • it is completely optional - not only is the asker not required to accept an answer, but the system works just fine if he does not do so.
  • it is available to askers even if they've done nothing on the site beyond post a question. No trust need be gained in order to use it.
  • it is available only to askers - no matter how trusted, ordinary users and moderators cannot accept or unaccept an answer.
  • when used, it ruthlessly overrides normal behavior in several key areas: sorting, question visibility (in unanswered lists) and the ability of an answer's author to voluntarily delete his work.

So what do we get in return for this abomination? Simply the potential for an answer to have been tried and found useful by someone with an actual problem to be solved. It need not be the most popular or well-written or even safe solution, but - like Amazon's "verified purchase" reviews, there's at least a reasonable chance that it reflects knowledge gained through hands-on experience.

Whether this is worth all of the trade-offs is debatable, but in practice it often doesn't even matter: most of the time, the accepted answer is also the highest-voted answer - in cases where an accepted answer becomes actively harmful, the community has other options for mitigating the damage.

See also: Can we exempt downvoted accepted answers from getting the top spot?

5
  • I think this is a great summary of the situtation! What options do you see for "mitigating the damage" it seems to me like downvotes may not do enough (due to the sorting problem)? Commented May 21, 2014 at 23:54
  • 2
    The easy solution is editing, @BradleyDotNET - which is available without restriction to any user with 2K on up. Trusted users may also delete accepted answers if they score less than 0. For situations in which editing and trusted user deletion aren't appropriate, starting a meta discussion and then flagging for moderator attention with a link to the discussion should suffice - moderators can't change the accepted answer, but they can delete accepted answers.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 23:58
  • That makes sense, I didn't want to edit due to the general "Don't edit code" rule, and we aren't supposed to flag for technical inaccuracy. Assuming I was a trusted user, would a delete vote be appropriate, or should I just edit the incorrect code out? Thanks for your excellent feedback! Commented May 22, 2014 at 0:04
  • Your call, @Bradley - it really depends on the situation. I prefer to correct minor inaccuracies or omissions while deleting posts that are obsolete or irrelevant. Just be sure and document what you're doing (in the revision comments and/or post comments).
    – Shog9
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 0:16
  • Thanks for the advice, I have edited the question and commented as suggested. Commented May 22, 2014 at 0:30
8

The person asking the question is uniquely unqualified to judge the quality of the answer. They're the person that didn't understand the concept sufficiently to be able to determine a solution, and are frequently incapable of understanding the answers to accurately judge their correctness and value.

Another problem (granted, one that has been muted due to some changes in the past) is that many users end up pressuring question author's into accepting answers (this was particularly bad when accept rate was shown on questions, and people would refuse to answer questions of users with a low accept rate), to which question authors often end up bowing to, because it's no skin off their back to have a wrong answer accepted once they've moved on.

If the question is written such that you can take in the code from an answer, plug it into the question, and determine if it works or not, then sure, the OP can probably do that. And if it passes even one single test case, it'll likely get a checkmark. That it fails as soon as data other than the sample data provided is frequently a problem not found until after the person has long since left the site; and if the code work most of the time, but has more subtle bugs (i.e. a huge percentage of answers relating to multithreading/asynchrony) the chances of the question author catching them are very low.

And then of course there are questions to which the answer isn't just providing a block of code, but explaining something. The OP won't know if the explanation is wrong, only if it's clear. A short, clear, understandable explanation of a problem can very easily end up being accepted by the question author despite the fact that it is entirely wrong. This of course doesn't mean that an unclear question is better, because it's not; having an answer be understandable (to the target audience) is very important, but the explanation should be both correct and clear. Just one isn't enough.

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    It's easy to upvote a clear correct-looking answer if you're not the one who actually has to go and use it. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:33
  • I have to disagree with this answer. The person asking the question is the one that is trying out the answers to see if they work or not. If they work, he/she marks the answer as accepted. The duty for this falls on the poster, not on other voters
    – Rachel
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:36
  • 1
    @SamIam Not if you actually understand the concepts involved, as opposed to the person asking the question who wouldn't be able to know, or test, whether the answer is wrong. If someone asks "where are value types stored in C#" and someone answers, "They go on the stack", the question author isn't going to know that it's wrong. To them it's just the answer they were given to their question. You seem to be applying your logic strictly to questions that contain nothing at all besides code.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:37
  • 1
    The number of test cases is a key factor for me. An OP won't see or test for the edge cases, an expert (or community of experts) will likely spot it and vote an accepted answer down if it contains them. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:42
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    @Servy the vast majority of the time, when I come to stack overflow to consume answers, I get there from google, and my question is normally "How do I X" when I don't already know how to do X. the inability to do X is the thing that's preventing me from doing my work, and it's my most immediate need. If I attempt to use an answer, and it turns out that that answer is actually not doing X, I'll know. "How to do X" questions are the main purpose of this site. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:43
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    @SamIam So when you go to SO from Google to get your answer for how to do X, would you rather find the answer that passes the first test case, but breaks two months later and causes all sorts of problems because the code had subtle bugs, or would you rather have the answer that is widely accepted as the best answer, rather than the first answer to pass a single test case?
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:45
  • @BradleyDotNET That's not the point of this site. Answerers are not expected to write a book everything related to the question, including edge cases. Sure that sort of answer is great when you get one, however its not the expectation for answerers. The goal of the site is to give the OP an answer that satisfies their question. If they asked how to foo the bar, you tell them how to foo the bar and that is enough. You don't also need to tell them watch out for baz and check for qux and test quux too. Its nice, but not expected
    – Rachel
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:46
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    @Rachel Answers that appear to work but in fact do not are far, far more damaging that no answer at all. When you think you have a solution but don't you don't expect problems, and you don't continue to look for solutions. You don't need to write a book to provide answers that can actually, reliably, work. If you aren't willing to provide working answers then everyone is actually better off if you don't post one at all.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:48
  • @Rachel Good answers will at least note the likely existence of bugs/edge cases even if they don't outright provide the solution for them (since some edge cases take a lot of code to deal with). Then the OP is informed and can know if those cases would be a problem for his use. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:49
  • @Rachel The example you edited in is including tangential, and potentially useful, information. Whether or not an answer includes useful tangential information is different from an answer that works using the sample input provided but breaks as soon as other expected data is provided.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:50
  • @Servy I disagree, a bad answer that is downvoted and explained why it is bad is far superior to no answer at all. It explains what not to do. And you know what? Even if it's not downvoted or explained why it is bad, I still find it better than no answer at all. I can frequently figure out cases where a bad answer won't work, and it serves to point me in the right direction as opposed to just being stuck with nothing.
    – Rachel
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:50
  • @Rachel And an incorrect answer that's accepted and listed at the top of the question as the correct answer? Someone who doesn't understand the issue well may not even know that the answer is wrong, or bad, let alone be able to take that information and use it to determine how they should solve the problem.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:52
  • @Servy I don't care how widely accepted an answer is if it's not actually tested. An untested answer is an untested answer. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:53
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    @Rachel But it's not. There are plenty of accepted answers that aren't proven by the OP. There are also plenty of answers that have been proven by hundreds of individuals, not just one, to be the superior solution for a given problem. The OP can have their green checkmark. They get to say that this is the answer that they think helped the most, but at the end of the day the community has a proven track record of being better at selecting the highest quality answer than question authors. The post sorting should reflect that.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:59
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    @SamIam And you see that in cases where the top community answer and the accepted answer disagree? Because personally I find that the situation you just described usually comes about because the 150 vote answer was accepted, and readers didn't read past the accepted answer to look at any other. It was "good enough" so they upvoted it. If that answer hadn't been accepted (or hadn't been at the top of the list as a result) it may well not be the answer with 150 votes. All the more reason not to push accepted answers to the top.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 21:09
3

The OP is uniquely qualified to determine an answer's correctness because it is the OP who is actually facing the problem. Drive-by up/down voters aren't facing the problem, and they aren't expected to test it before they vote.

The accepted answer is special. It represents the answer that actually ended up being a solution to the real-life problem. It doesn't need to merely look good to the drive-by viewer. It needs to actually solve the problem.


It needs to be at the top because people reading the page need to find it. If it's not in a predictable place, it's harder to find.

It's possible for there to be a flood of more highly upvoted answers along with the accepted answer, but you're never going to have a flood of accepted answers making it harder to find the upvoted ones.

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  • Although I understand what you're saying as far as the accepted answer being the best answer for the asker, it is precisely those drive-by viewers who are the majority of eyes on that question. Shouldn't they get a different view of it than the question asker? Commented May 21, 2014 at 19:06
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    It seems you have a contradictory statement there. Down-voted answers (almost by definition) do not actually solve the problem. There is some (perhaps very hidden) flaw that makes them poor solutions, or no solution at all. Its very possible for the OP to not notice or encounter these flaws, and still mark it as accepted. I would say what is on top (not necessarily the accepted answer) should be useful to the "drive-by viewer", and having a poor answer on top defeats this purpose. Commented May 21, 2014 at 19:06
  • This is not a convincing argument for showing the accepted answer at the top, only for the OP being allowed to select an answer. A selected answer being strongly down-voted suggests that it may not be useful to the incoming Google masses and maybe should not be at the top when there are other, higher-voted answers.
    – nobody
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 19:10
  • 1
    @BradlyDotNET "Down-voted answers (almost by definition) do not actually solve the problem." is very wrong. People who are not the OP downvote answers for many reasons. From religious-war reasons such as having the curly brace on the wrong line, to more incorrect reasons such as down-voting the answer to a question that they think they understand, but don't Commented May 21, 2014 at 19:23
  • I fully agree with this answer since I have had the reverse case happen: an incorrect answer is posted and voted to the top, despite my downvote, and sometimes the correct answer can get downvoted too. In these cases I greatly appreciate the ability to mark an answer as Accepted and have it be at the top of the list so it gets more visibility. If that didn't exist, chances are the correct answer would get passed over by many readers.
    – Rachel
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 19:23
  • 1
    If the question is one that you can take in code, plug it into the question, and determine if it works or not, then sure, the OP can probably do that. And if it passes even one single test case, it'll likely get a checkmark. That it fails as soon as data other than the sample data provided is frequently a problem not found until after the person has long since left the site. And then of course there are questions to which the answer isn't just providing a block of code, but explaining something. The OP won't know if the explanation is wrong, only if it's clear.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:15
  • @Servy An answer that can't be parsed by someone who doesn't already know the answer is useless, no matter how technically correct it is. After the question has settled, the people who will be using the answers are people who are like the OP, and people with the same needs as the OP has. If you find a question that's like your own, and an answer didn't meet the needs of the OP, it's unlikely to meet your needs either. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:25
  • @SamIam An answer that the reader of the question can't understand is indeed useless, but one that they can understand and that is wrong is even worse. A common situation is someone posts a quick, short, clear, but totally wrong answer, the OP accepts it, and then a while later someone comes along and posts a very clear, detailed, and correct answer. The second answer can get a ton of votes, but the checkmarked wrong answer may never go away. I see that story happen rather often.
    – Servy
    Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:27
  • @Servy the common situation is that someone posts a quick, short, clear, but totally wrong answer, and the numbnuts browsing the question for fun, or to try to answer it, upvote that answer. Meanwhile, the OP actually tries to use the answer, and fails, and waits for an answer that actually does answer his question. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:30
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    @Servy The OP is the one who actually tests the answer. Most of the time, the upvotes come from people who are also interested in posting an answer, and they don't actually test it. Commented May 21, 2014 at 20:32
0

No, I do not think we should do this.

Consider this scenario:

  • Question gets asked and 5 answers are posted
  • One answer is upvoted
  • Another answer is accepted
  • Accepted answer gets downvoted (who knows, maybe the upvoted answerer got mad)

Now suppose someone else comes along looking for a solution to the problem. They would have to read through all 5 answers to find the one that worked for the OP to solve the problem, and chances are they wouldn't bother.

The Accepted Check is there for a reason. It's the answer the Asker has Accepted that Answer as the solution to their problem.

When I am seeking an answer to my problems, this is the sort of information that I care about, and that I would like to see at the top of the list.

If you believe an answer is wrong, downvote and leave a comment explaining why (or upvote an existing comment). This tells me, or other users, that although the answer posted worked for the asker, it is not necessarily the best way to accomplish the task.

It should also be noted that there are many times when the "Top Voted" answer is incorrect. In fact, in the example question you linked the top voted answer is this one, which is not correct or very useful to the OP (explanation below in case you care).

And last of all, the vote arrows read "This answer is useful" or "This answer is not useful".

Just because other community members don't think an answer is useful, does not mean it is not still a valid answer which answered the asker's question.

For example, the accepted answer to the question you linked is actually a valid answer. Sure it's not the ideal way to accomplish the task, and most WPF users will hate it, but it makes sense to WinForms users and it actually does work.

As another example, this answer to a question of mine was highly upvoted, however it did not answer my question. It's still useful to many users seeking the the same thing and who aren't concerned about the same edge cases as I was, however it does not answer my specific question. If I had posted a custom solution as I did and it first got a downvote, chances are nobody would read through all 13 answers to find the answer that worked for me.

So in situations where there is one answer that the OP says worked but the community says is bad, or other answers which the community says is good but the OP says didn't work for them, I would much rather see the working and accepted solution at the top of the list of answers.

Vote on them, comment on them, but ultimately I'll be the one taking that information and deciding which one to use based on my circumstances.


There are a number of reasons I think the top voted answer is not very useful.
1) The first line hints at the correct answer, however it is wrong and easily disproved by the OP's comment.
2) The next few lines are suggestions of code samples which makes some assumptions about the OP's code structure, and contain no real explanation. In this case, those assumptions seem incorrect, so the code does not work and the OP is no closer to solving their problem.
3) And the last few lines contains some speculation that the static keyword is causing the problem, however this can be proven to be a non-issue with a simple test case.

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