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I have heard a few highly reputed users expressing sentiments that again and again answering the same newbie questions becomes very tedious. ("What should be the result of i == ++i + i++?" anyone?) Those who say this frequently are highly reputed, very knowledgeable users, whose decreased contribution or even departure would be a great loss to the community.

So I started thinking that we should have an FAQ. The (more or less official) C++ FAQ is frequently linked to, but IMO it lacks. It doesn't necessarily foremost address the questions which are asked on Stack Overflow most frequently, it's not editable for us, and we cannot close questions with a pointer to the FAQ, or even merge questions into it. But a set of well-worded and constantly improved answers to frequently asked questions, so that repeatedly arising questions could be closed as duplicates or merged into their FAQ counterpart, seems highly desirable.
At first, the new tag pages with their tag wiki and a list of frequently linked-to questions (unfortunately named "faq") seemed a step into the right direction to me, but I soon realized that this didn't get far enough. Then, GMan and I had an initial discussion about this the other day, that was later continued in the chat.

I feel the need to discuss this at Meta Stack Overflow, because

  1. Others might explain why I am/we are wrong about this and why this isn't needed at all and a great waste of time and resources.
  2. More people would bring more ideas to the table.
  3. Regulars in other tags might have similar ideas that we don't know about.
  4. If we do this, this would need support from as many people as possible
  5. As everyone who followed the link to the chat saw, chat transcripts aren't exactly a great way of documenting a threaded discussion.
  6. We might feel that some new feature would greatly enhance our ability to pull this off, which would require a discussion on meta.

Here's an initial list of questions that, IMO, should be answered in such a discussion:

  • Do we need yet another C++ FAQ anyway? If so, how do we pull this off?
  • Would questions with a special tag (I've gone and added my initial idea, c++-faq to this post) be sufficient? Would the voting system be sufficient to ensure that the best answers bubble up (as opposed to the funniest, most controversial, etc.)?
  • Would it be desirable to restrict the right to edit FAQ answers? If so, how do we do this?
  • Could the tag wiki (currently requires 1,500 rep) be a good place to use for that?

If you answer to this, please, be polite, critical, and constructive, try to stay focused, and refrain from repeating the umpteenth time what has been said before you.
Also again: Please feel free to edit this question if you think it lacks in any regard. This is by no mean my project, I'm merely the one who, about 10 hours ago, said he would be able post such a question today at the time we more or less agreed upon.


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    I don't have a whole lot to add to what you've said. I'm wholly in favor of this and am more than willing to contribute. I'm very much in favor of article-like posts (like "What is the copy-and-swap idiom?") and think they are hugely beneficial. I think a good list of frequently asked questions and frequently-unasked-but-should-be-asked questions would be very useful, both for people who have questions and for those of us that answer a large number of them. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 17:47
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    Note that, done right, this can be applied automatically to any tag.
    – GManNickG
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 19:03
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    I believe that this isn't limited to C++..
    – Default
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 21:17
  • @KennyTM: I am afraid of that, too. Basically, this is why I ran this idea by some others before I did this. And, hell, we're closing question left and right all day for whatever reasons, that are a lot more controversially placed that this one. If this makes one or two users per day copy this idea, I suppose they're easily put into their place.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:27
  • @Default: I believe so, too. (See #3 on my list of reasons to bring this to meta.) Do you have an idea how to get this across to other communities?
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:30
  • @GMan: I have no idea what the "this" in your comment refers to. (Again. Sorry, it's probably just me being dense.)
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:31
  • @sbi: The idea of FAQ's for languages. With enough cooperation from the site's system, the community could create and tag FAQ questions specific to certain tags. (See the second half of my answer.)
    – GManNickG
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 1:52
  • Neil also disappeared from C++ usenet, it seems. Commented Oct 31, 2010 at 23:57
  • I agree. IMO, for each big language, there should be a FAQ site that is designed on its own. Not the current questions list. The FAQ can link to such questions itself. I don't think that marking "master answers" is a good idea though. Everyone will think his answer should be the master answer. The voting system is a good way of picking out good answers already. In the FAQ, there can be a link list to such answers of a given topic. Commented Nov 1, 2010 at 13:36
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    (Update to link some views from chat.)
    – Gnome
    Commented Nov 8, 2010 at 18:23
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    This is a great idea. I need to take an "advanced" C++ course soon, so I'm glad this will exist. There are a few good, reliable C++ resources online already, but there's also a lot of bad C++ information on the 'Net. It will be great to have a collaboratively edited and reviewed C++ FAQ here.
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Nov 15, 2010 at 14:18
  • @sje397: Basically, CW's intention is to lower the rep necessary for other users to edit such questions and answers from 3000 to 100. IMO, however, it's best to limit editing capabilities to FAQ entries to experienced 3k rep users.
    – sbi
    Commented Dec 12, 2010 at 13:18
  • What's the difference between frequent tab under c++ tag and c++-faq? stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/c%2b%2b?sort=frequent
    – Yang Bo
    Commented Mar 7, 2017 at 3:46
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    @user955091: In the best of worlds, there is none, because all the frequent C++ questions have the c++-faq tag.
    – sbi
    Commented Mar 7, 2017 at 11:33
  • @JohnD: I dunno, really. This was an effort by the regulars in a C++ chatroom that by now have mostly been driven off the site by the meta crowd. I am rarely ever on SO anymore myself and I don't know how up to date the c++-faq tag still is – let alone if there's another. Currently there seems to be no c-faq tag, though.
    – sbi
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 20:44

15 Answers 15

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As I've said in a few comments on questions a few days ago, I feel that this is circumvents most of what makes Stack Overflow work.

We've always had the ability to give "RTFM" answers. Direct people to the C++ FAQ Lite, a good book or whatever else floats your boat. And the problem has always been the same: when people ask a question, they want an answer, they don't want to be sent on some kind of treasure hunt to find the One Canonical Answer, written by a domain expert two years ago. They want an answer that covers their question at their premises using their wording.

I think the one thing that more than anything else has made Stack Overflow such a success is the "question first" approach. It is not a collection of knowledge, but a collection of actual questions, asked by people at varying skill levels, with associated answers. It is aimed squarely at servicing the people asking the question, rather than the people answering. Yes, I wish everyone would just know that i++ + ++i is undefined, but they don't. And us pretending to ask the question and then providing our own super-polished answer isn't going to change that.

As recently decreed, duplicates aren't a bad thing, and I feel that this FAQ is the wrong tool to "solve" it.

It would be great if there was a convenient way to make the good versions of commonly asked questions easily accessible, but this tag is rapidly devolving into experts jerking off with their experts knowledge, rather than actual beginners getting answers to their beginners questions.

Put bluntly, if these questions are asked so often, *then why do we need to ask them as well? If you must, add this tag to one of the existing questions, the ones asked by actual beginners who actually needed the answer.

There have been a few very good, and well justified, "made-up" questions under this tag. They have been clear and easily readable answers to things that people don't ask, but which they need to know, and so they become resources that we can point to from our answers, rather than replacing the answer.

GMan's question here is a nice example of what I feel is good usage of the tag. It doesn't seek to replace the actual questions that people want to ask. Instead it supplements them, by posing a question that people don't typically ask, but which they typically need to know, and which is a relevant starting point for many answers to other questions.

Where I feel it is a slippery slope (and one that we're already too far down) is when experts try to replace the beginners asking the questions. Questions that are already asked dozens of times, and where the only thing distinguishing the one from the rest is that it's fake: it's asked by an expert who knew the answer, and asked it with the vocabulary and assumptions of an expert, which makes it less likely to be discovered or found useful by a beginner who wants that question answered.

it is making SO a site for experts to streamline the process of showing off, rather than a site making it easy to get answers to your questions.

We already have wikis all over the web. SO isn't a wiki, so why does it need to pretend to be one? Why not point people to a wiki if we want to provide wiki-like information written and edited by experts?

And the reason it won't work is the assumption that "I can create the perfect answer to this question". You can't, because the perfect answer is one that is tailored to the specific question and the specific person asking it. It is easy to write an answer that an omniscient C++ expert will find perfect, but that answer almost certainly won't be considered perfect by the people who want to ask that question. As such, this attempt at taking the actual question askers out of the loop just means that the information people find here is going to seem less immediately usable. A beginner is going to have to parse a lot of standardese in order to get his question answered. And an intermediate user is going to have to slog through a lot of needless explanation of details that have to be there for the beginners reading the question. So no, you can't make the "perfect answer", and to be honest, I think trying to do so is just adding yet another instance of negative behavior to the list of things that may discourage people from using the site.

I know I feel demotivated when I look at the list of recent C++ answers and see that a number of them are asked by the same four expert users. This tells me that they're not answering questions that people want answered. They are lecturing what they feel needs to be lectured. One may also get the impression that they are rep-whoring (I doubt this because I know the people in question to be above that, but it's easy to get the impression, and I think it's a bad impression to leave, and a bad example to set for less experienced SO users.

On a more constructive note, I do agree that the "fastest gun in the west" thing, and the way in which it just isn't worth trying to reference existing questions is a problem. And it is a problem that expert users are getting so frustrated with the system that they leave.

But in the long term, I feel that a tag like this may be a reason why others end up leaving. I no longer feel that I am helping beginners. I have a blog I can use when I want to hear myself talk, or post resources I wrote myself. If I wanted to structure it better and combine it with information written by others, then I could use one of the countless wikis already available. The reason I'm on SO is because I want to help others on their premises, when they ask questions, giving them the answers that they want and that they can understand. I think this interactivity, the fact that I can ask a question and have people answer me, rather than tell me where to look up the pre-written answer is crucial to SO.

And to be honest, I suspect that it's pretty common, maybe even unavoidable, that experienced users grow tired of this sooner or later. And maybe that's ok. Surely, the number of times we've all answered C++ questions of all levels means that if and when we start getting annoyed at people asking "is it safe to delete a null pointer", maybe it is just time for us to leave and let the people we've effectively been teaching take over. I think I prefer this over trying to bend SO to our grumpy and weary attitudes and shortened patience. But trying to force beginners to stop asking question and instead just read those nuggets of wisdom we wrote last year is just foolish. It can't work, anyone who's ever been in any kind of teaching position can tell you that. Anyone who's ever answered questions from a buddy who's learning programming knows it.

And I feel that a tag like this is pulling SO in the opposite direction, making it less relevant for those who actually want their questions answered, and for those of us who want to help those users.

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    The FAQ idea is not to tell people to RTFM. Read my first comment to GMan's answer regarding this. Also, I'd prefer hijacking of real questions, although I do see that there are a few problems with that. I've tried to add some less standardese answers to some of those FAQs and invite you to do the same. As for whether an FAQ for SO is necessary and works, I think the SO FAQ itself has answered both of these positively.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:07
  • @sbi: isn't it pretty much "RTFM" when you tell the person who just asked the question "please don't ask this, read our faq instead"? And I did read your comment, and as I said, I don't believe that creating a single canonical "perfect answer" is possible, and is most likely even detrimental. It may be perfect to you or me, but we're not the ones who ask it and want it answered. The reason some questions are asked so often is that different people ask questions in different ways, and need different answers, targeted at different skill levels, and aimed at different angles. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:13
  • I'm not sure I see the relevance of the SO FAQ. That's a different beast entirely. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:14
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    I'm going to agree with you on "A beginner is going to have to parse a lot of standardese in order to get his question answered. And an intermediate user is going to have to slog through a lot of needless explanation of details that have to be there for the beginners reading the question." and that's the reason I'm starting to believe that C++-faq is maybe the wrong way to solve the problem. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:16
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    I did the two faq answer entries "sequence points" and "dependent names" because I found both of those two topics weren't explained to my satisfaction in the C++ faq lite or existing answers - often because they were targetted only to anwwer the question at hand. But often enough you want to link to the full topic of something to inform someone about sequence points or dependent names, like i do in this answer at the bottom. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:21
  • By the way, I should point out that I'm not criticizing any of you for posting these FAQ questions. I just want to throw my voice into the discussion of whether such a FAQ is the right tool. At the moment, I don't think it is, but I don't blame you guys for thinking differently. I just think it is important to have the discussion and see what, if any, consensus emerges. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:25
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    And please don't argue with Jeff's changed view onto dupes. Jeff apparently doesn't have to deal with two i = ++i + i++ questions a week. Yes, there are several possible perfect answers to such questions, but I don't see why they shouldn't be unified under one common question, and why that shouldn't use the proper term "sequence points". Since this idea has come up and the first few dozen questions (old or new ones) have been tagged c++-faq I have closed quite a few dupes using this. And I like it for this.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:26
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    I'm not satisfied at all with those standardese-heavy answers, and tried my best to give easier to understand answers where I was able to. Go ahead, do that, too, please. Another problem with frequently answered questions is that they are often answered with very varying quality. One common question with a few good answers that all others link to can help to give better answers to commonly asked questions.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:29
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    Maybe FAQ is the wrong term for this kind of thing. A FAQ normally has an index and next/previous buttons on questions. In our SO world, we just have a loose collections of questions/answers that we tag that way. My personal goal is not to duplicate the FAQ Lite or to write a C++ book-in-disguise, but to just make a few answers for things that i beleive needs more explanation. For that reason, I'm starting to think it was a wrong idea to make a new "pseudo-question" for this. I think I may close my question, and copy my answer to an existing question. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:30
  • @Johannes: You mean like the SO FAQ? That's easy to setup at the tag wiki.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:34
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    @sbi yes. Only that that FAQ is targetted toSO newbies :) We are trying to target the noobs and the intermediates. Like @jalf, I think that won't work well in the long term. But I seem to be more optimistic than him on this. I'll continue posting template faq answers, though not on new questions. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:36
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    @sbi: the problem with that is that we also need different questions. (did you see my previous comment, or did I post that after you started writing this one?) and also because all the answers under a question are ordered by quality, and that assumes a single uniform "quality measure". But from the pov of an intermediate programmer, one answer should be on top, but to a beginner, that answer is incomprehensible, and answer #6 should've been on top instead. Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 14:14
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    In a nutshell, I worry that it'll encourage us to stop considering the needs of the person asking (by offering canned pre-written answers), that it'll be discouraging to newcomers (I don't get my q. answered, it just gets closed with a note to read "the official answer" elsewhere), and that it'll lead to more mediocre results (because even your best effort is going to be a mediocre fit for a reader with too high or low skill level relative to what you assumed when you wrote the question and the answer) Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 14:22
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    @sbi but here's the thing: I define "a really good answer" as one that is written in response to an actual question, and which is approved of not just by a little clique hanging out on SO chat, but by the people who read it as a whole. This FAQ completely bypasses that system. it is a mechanism for "the elite" to write what they want, and then retrofit it with an imagined question, and finally pat themselves on the back for writing a really good answer*. Except that it's not a really good answer because it doesn't answer the real question, because it never had a real question. Commented Jun 7, 2011 at 12:12
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    And if you object to "the maze of mediocre answers", then this is the wrong solution, because it only adds yet another layer to the maze. The way to avoid such a maze is to put a correct, high-quality answer next to the question. Saying "I won't answer your question, but have a look at the FAQ we wrote elsewhere, at another time, in response to another question" only adds to the maze. Commented Jun 7, 2011 at 12:15
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Ideas for C++-FAQ Questions might be:

  • How do I learn C++? What if I know another language? What resources should I use?
    • Close to my heart. State my profile in a far nicer manner, explaining rationale possible "meta" tips about learning (how to avoid thinking in other languages, why not to, how to avoid bad resources, etc.). Explain that good, modern, idiomatic C++ is far different than any other language they're going to use, so do things the C++ way.
  • Are C and C++ the same? Can the be considered the same?
    • A joint FAQ question for C and C++, discuss why tagging things C/C++ is annoying and generally nonsensical. Talks about when it's not. Discusses the rationale for keeping C++ mostly compatible, and why idiomatic C and C++ are not the same.
  • How do I manage resources? What is RAII and SBRM?*
    • Discusses RAII/SBRM, The Rule of Three/Four, rationale and guidelines ("either manage a single resource, or use multiple resources; don't both manage and use a resource"), and what C++0x brings to the table.
  • What is the copy-and-swap idiom?
    • Linked to by the previous FAQ in the section when discussing The Rule of Three, discusses the how and why of the copy-and-swap idiom, and what C++0x brings to the table.
  • What are allocators? How can I write my own?*
    • Discusses allocators, when to use non-default allocators, and why. Discusses the changes C++0x brings, and demonstrates how to write a pool allocator and stack allocator.
  • What is a null pointer? Are there null references? Can this be null?
    • Discusses the null pointer constant, pointer representation, and dereferencing null. Touches on whether or not this can ever be guaranteed to be null. (No.) Brings up any changes C++0x makes.
  • What are sequence points? What is i = i++ + ++i?
    • You know the drill. Also covers C++0x.
  • How do templates work with the compiler and linker? Why do I get linker errors?
    • Discusses instantiation, linkage, and possible best practices in this regard. (Note: this question has been asked often enough entering the correct title in a new question, like "template linker errors", will bring up duplicates as desired. Finally.)
  • Why do I get type errors in my templates? What is a dependent name? What is typename?
    • Discusses the usual. Mentions C++0x (IIRC) allows superfluous typename specifiers.
  • How do I do concurrent code in C++? Are the standard containers thread-safe?
    • Again, the usual. Mention C++0x atomics, threading, etc. Mention alternatives to 0x. Importantly, link to further threading resources.

*I'm thinking of writing these soonish, anyway.

There are more, but that's good for now. I think in the same way I tried to compile a list of old mentions of copy-and-swap in the copy-and-swap question (out of respect and fairness), we should attempt to do the same.

If people could be forced to look over this list, or at least be strongly directed to it we'd solve a lot of the headache repeating the same problem over and over. Maybe when a tag X is entered, automatically show a list of questions tagged X-faq in the "searched questions" list. Note in this case, I think (and have always thought), that the tag entry should be done directly underneath the title entry. This way the "searched questions" list could be substantially more precise, filtering by both title, and tag. (And maybe even search content of FAQ questions, for a better search.)

Another thing to remember is, even if you say "it's not that bad, we just teach them again", they aren't always going to get the same information. Maybe one day we're feeling nice and completely explain template instantiation and why linker errors occur; there's a lot of information there. But a week later we might be lazy and say "Put it in the header, go away.". They won't get a why, often don't get linked to a place to find out why, and we've only patched up one person, instead of taught many.

With respect to the actual FAQ questions page, for the FAQ page on tag X it would place X-faq questions first, and then a nice horizontal separator, and then the rest as it is now. This way community-picked FAQ questions are at the top. After all, the people that frequent the C++ tag know what's frequently asked.

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    You cannot force people to really look at anything before they post, and I'm not sure I even want to force them. But just the ability to quickly find that one perfect answer to all those i = ++i + i++ questions, point it out, and close the question as a duplicate would be heaven-sent. And I'd happily have my framed unicorn picture mailed to Jon's address instead of mine for the ability to add a treatment on whatever aspect the new question brought up and that hadn't been part of the FAQ to the latter.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:38
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    @sbi: I agree, your bolded statement is really the central component: a quick way to give people consistent information about a specific situation. It would just be nice if, given a question title and tag, the site put it's effort into searching the FAQ's (the FAQ question would even have a list of "keywords", aside from tags) and displaying those up-front.
    – GManNickG
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 23:01
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    @sbi @GMan How about starting to mark these perfect answers as "masters"? For instance, this would be a master. Would it then be possible to search through these to speed things up? The only issue I see is when there's >1000 masters..
    – Default
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 21:20
  • @Default: For reasons that escape me I only now saw your comment. Sorry. I'm not sure what you mean by "master". Could you please elaborate?
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 20, 2010 at 11:35
  • @sbi: When a question is asked many times with small differences, why not make a "single purpose" question/answer and call that a master question, for which all these can be linked/closed as dups. however, I am seeing some questions like this being tagged as c++faq, so my comment might be redundant.
    – Default
    Commented Nov 20, 2010 at 12:44
  • @Default: Yeah, in essence this is what we're trying to do, although questions "setup" for this purpose have gotten a lot of heat in the last few days.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 20, 2010 at 16:15
  • @Default: I can think of two reasons: 1) you're putting yourself in charge, deciding that this is the true answer, and others need not apply unless they've already earned a C++ gold badge), where SO normally lets the community at large, the readers and especially the person asking the question in char, Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:21
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    and 2) there is no "single purpose" answer and no master question. People often ask the same questions, but coming from different directions, at different skill levels and for different reasons. And trying to close one or the other as a duplicate just feels silly because they aren't, from the point of view of the person asking. A beginner needs a different answer than an intermediate programmer. Someone trying to understand a section of the standard needs a different answer than someone wondering why his code doesn't work as expected, even if the questions boil down to the same thing. Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:21
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One thing that I've noticed is that "FAQ" are often answered again, rather than closed as duplicates. I think the reputation system (unfortunately) encourages this.

It would be preferable imo if the system could somehow encourage exact dups to be upvoted rather than directly rewarding the proliferation of redundant answers and questions.

I think such a system would solve @Steve Jessop's issue because over time the cream should rise to the top as the 'golden question and answer' attracts attention and upvotes. I have not noticed if the linked questions sidebar already weights by vote totals.

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    Very good point. To be honest, I myself often answer question because I want the reputation instead of searching for a dupe first. This of course only happens because people upvote answers without searching for a dupe first. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:12
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    @Space_C0wb0y - when you post a new q, dups are suggested. But of course then poster does not get credit for the questions upvotes. Altruism is hard, I generally do point to dups (more so as I feel confident about my own rep here) but still cannot claim to be perfectly non-redundant ... I do note that many senior and highly-regarded members comment rather than answer, though. Perhaps some scheme for rep for comment upvotes would be encourage more socially-productive patterns.
    – Steve Townsend
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:17
  • I like this idea. If a question is marked duplicate. Then all its up-votes get drained and appended to the question it is a duplicate off. I think any answers to the question are also moved; thus they got up/down voted in relation to the original question rather than getting lost. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 21:10
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    @Martin: Upvotes should not be transferred. Duplicates are usually pointed out quickly (but if not, those voters can always check back as their interest suits them) and I may think the newer post was very well written, but the other may be poorly written and worth a downvote or at least no upvote.
    – Gnome
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 21:30
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    As to removing upvotes on duplicates: please don't do that either. If I want to reward a well-asked question, I will upvote it. Searching for duplicates can be hard, and I do not want to punish those taking the time to ask a question well. ("Punish" may be a bit harsh, but removing an earned reward is very close.) And don't forget, questions have been closed as duplicates and then reopened.
    – Gnome
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 21:33
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    It's not only the rep system that encourages this, it's also the abysmally bad searching ability. Having one good place to find the perfect answer to a frequently asked question would be gorgeous indeed.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:40
9

"again and again answering the same newbie questions becomes very tedious"

Personally I don't think answering newbie questions need be tedious. What's tedious IMO is fending off incorrect answers to commonly-misunderstood newbie questions because we don't want to see newbies led astray. (Q - "What should be the result of i == ++i + i++?". A - "twice the original value of i, plus 2/3/some other number I've come up with. The operator precedence rules say that...". An argument ensues of the form "you don't know what you're talking about, read the fsck(8)ing standard", "yes I do, the standard is for geeks and posers")

I don't think a FAQ can hurt, but I'm not sure it would help much either unless it's short enough to take in at a glance. Constantly searching for a satisfactory dupes and standard references is annoying, so IMO the goal should be to speed up the process of slapping down wrongness ;-)

Other FAQs aim to be readable as an introduction to their subject. This one doesn't need to do that if it's intended entirely as a resource for answerers rather than questioners. Just a list of the top N most annoying C++ questions might be a really nice resource to help deal with duplicate questions very quickly. There are some of these annoying-FAQ questions in the top C++ questions by votes, but not many. Maybe Jeff or someone could be persuaded to pull some raw data out of the DB, concerning the most-duplicated C++ questions, to start that off?

Fundamentally, we can't hope to write a C++ FAQ that newbies will actually read before posting those annoying questions, so that they don't post them at all. It's been tried, it didn't work, let's move on.

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    the goal should be to speed up the process of slapping down wrongness Agreed: I frequently have a hard time finding a good question/answer pair that addresses something that I know has been asked 8 million times (like i == ++i + i++). The debate with people that "don't know what they're talking about" is important because it's an opportunity to get that person to understand why they are wrong and what the correct answer is. (I know for a fact that I've learned a lot on Stack Overflow because I answered something and was wrong but didn't know it until someone called me an idiot.) Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:10
  • 1
    @James: agreed about the debate, I'm being unfairly dismissive of the wrong people by focussing on the tedious part, assuming that they're wrong and stubborn, where most aren't. I started putting time into SO specifically because I was sharpening my C++ and wanted to be informed/corrected. It's the interactivity that's why those corrections are better than just reading a FAQ or textbook, so it can't be eliminated entirely. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:19
  • 1
    @Steve - agreed but do we really need to duplicate the same debate over and over and over? First and foremost this is supposed to be a repository for people to get answers efficiently, not to give them a choice of 10 threads that answer the same q in slightly different ways. Plus - old questions never die, they just get less 'hot'.
    – Steve Townsend
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:26
  • 5
    @Steve Townsend: well, the debate doesn't need to be duplicated in permanent form, but I think it must be had repeatedly if people are to learn. When I was at university I was taught mathematics that students have been taught for 50 years (or much longer), I wasn't just told to read the FAQ and left to my own devices. SO is not a university, of course, but it is a learning resource. Thing is, it probably requires way too much moderator intervention to determine that a dupe question contains no new information, and just delete it. The result is a lot of dupes left in existence. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:38
  • I think the ideal is that one of these annoying dupe questions should (a) be quickly closed as a duplicate, (b) wrong answers should be commented to say "this is wrong, check the answer to the dupe", (c) the dupe target should contain a good answer and good rebuttals to typical wrong answers, and (d) if the wrong person persists, engage in debate. That's ideal, though, I'm not saying that people should necessarily always want to put in that much effort. Closing the question as fast as possible will, at least reduce the opportunity for people to post wrong answers. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:42
  • @Steve Jessop - yes, my thought was that making changes to channel the continuing debate to a 'best question and answer' would improve things, but perhaps that's neither realistic nor desirable. To be honest, it's no big deal to me (not a moderator). Some of my obscure Win32 answers plagiarize or paraphrase (with URL!) code that's available on the web. I try not to post the same cut-and-paste twice if I can help it though.
    – Steve Townsend
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:46
  • @Steve Jessop: A page listing C++ FAQs and very good answers to them would be a very good way to speed up the process of "slapping down" duplicates.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:45
  • Oh, and I only glared over most of your answer, because my concentration vanished instantly the moment I saw that you attempted to answer the infamous i = ++i + i++ question. Sorry, but it's already a reflex: I see it and cannot, for the life of my, read on.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:46
  • A major problem especially with ++i + i++ is that you can't search for it. This makes closing as duplicates much harder and contributes to everybody asking it again and again.
    – sth
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 23:31
  • @sth ++i + i++ should certainly be in the tag wiki Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 4:51
  • @sbi: I swear, the "answer" is confined to one sentence, and is a parody, not an attempt to answer it. Any further instances of "++" that you saw while skimming my answer, are "C++" ;-) Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 10:32
  • 1
    @Steve: Ok, so I went and read the remainder. I have said this in other comments already, but here we go again: I'm not aiming to have something for newbies required to read through before they post a question, and I don't aim to write a C++ introduction either. A mere tool for established users to quickly find and point out FAQs in order to close duplicates would already be very helpful.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 12:49
  • @Steve Townsend: I don't think you can "continue the debate", the same way that, as in @Steve Jessop's example, university students have to start from scratch, being taught in person the same things that students the previous 50 years have learned. The few expert users can continue the debate, sure, refine it and educate themselves. But the beginners are starting from scratch, every day. And they need to be dealt with personally, interactively, on their premises. That is what SO allows, and earlier attempts at Q&A platforms have never really managed. And a FAQ tag works against that, I think Commented Nov 21, 2010 at 23:01
7

The C++ tag wiki is really basic at the bare minimum of 10 or so really common questions that are hard to search should be linked from there.

Also, Link furiously to the canonical duplicate questions you find, this will improve the FAQ.

If we had a huge red sign on the site and people will still on occasion ask duplicate questions, it's inevitable, and - as Jeff Atwood says - a bit of duplication can be good. It makes it easier for Googlers to find an answer. I do not think an awesome FAQ will stop all duplication. At best it will make it easier for you to find the original.

I think magical tags like, for example, [c++-faq] which can only be set by users with a certain amount of rep, scare me. It's a slippery slope that ends with people having tags like [hard] [easy] and so on. That said, I accept that our tag wiki and FAQ can be hard to find and we are looking at ways of making the tag wikis and faq sections easier to find and use.

I totally agree our search sucks, but a move to Lucene/Sphinx is going to probably have wait till next year. In the meantime stackexchange.com has a Google powered search and we are adding a lot of features there.

Overall, I would like to make one small change at at time to help alleviate the above problems. We need specific actionable items if we are to improve.

I agree we need better mechanisms for dealing with duplication, I just don't know exactly what they are.

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  • 1
    I don't follow your slippery slope claim.
    – GManNickG
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 5:54
  • 1
    I don't want an FAQ prevent people from asking questions, even stupid and/or duplicate ones (nothing prevents the crowd from doing stupid things anyway), I want it as a tool for the regulars. (And, actually, a way to channel what frustration is among them. But I'd rather not say that in public.:-x) I want duplicates still to be findable, but leading to The One, Perfect Answer for them. (I think "merging" is the term here, but I really don't know if/how this works.) So even if the tag wiki will stay hard to find, it could still help, because it's needed by power users, not by newbies.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 8:24
  • I don't believe in magic, so I'm not in favor of "magical tags". In fact, I can't see someone has suggested them, but I could have missed that. (OTOH, they certainly do exist already, as, IIUC, you can't post a question on meta without one of certain, magical tags.) It's still good to hear one of the gods say that, in principle, they're willing to add features to help with this. If, later, we could have a way to merge duplicates into already existing FAQ questions, that would be great, but I think we could get something flying even without that.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 8:32
  • Your idea to start out with what we have and add features later if we understand what we need is basically mine, too. (Although I think a certain amount of planning might be better than just stumbling around in the dark, hence this topic here.) The more I play with the thoughts expressed so far, the more I think a certain tag (c++faq?) combined with (ab)use of the tag wiki can go a far way to improve usage for regulars. (And channel their frustration, but, again, I don't want to say this aloud.:^})
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 8:36
  • Oh, but here's one feature request that would help to avoid confusion if we really get this going: That tag "FAQ" really is a misnomer, since it doesn't show frequently asked questions (nobody ever asks about "The Definite C++ Book List"), but questions frequently linked to. I agree that there is a certain overlap, but it's not the same. So if we get this FAQ idea flying, renaming this entry...
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 8:41
  • ...might be a good idea to avoid confusion. But this, too, can wait until we see whether there really is a problem. (If the FAQ questions bubble up there in not time, this would be a non-issue.)
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 8:49
6

I think we all recognize the problem that this is intended to solve. That's the easy part.

The tricky part is whether or not this FAQ is really the right tool.

Someone just upvoted one of my old answers, and when I went to see which post it was, it gave me another idea I wanted to mention.

Take a look at my answer

That RAII link is one of those things I need to post all the time, and which takes me so long to look up that all the mediocre answers get there first. If we could automate/streamline stuff like this, the ability to link to/reference existing high-quality articles, then providing good answers to common questions wouldn't be such a pain, and we wouldn't be outperformed by the much faster mediocre (or incorrect) answers.

So perhaps (speaking purely hypothetically here), SO should be extended with a kind of easily indexable wiki, so that, for example, we, the community, write an article explaining RAII, and then, whenever we need to refer to this in an answer, we use some simple markdown extension (say, [RAII)](wiki:RAII), to use a syntax similar to that for regular links), and it will insert a link to that wiki article.

The same could be done for sequence points (making it much easier to write accurate and high-quality answers to i++ + ++i questions), allowing us to write a brief explanation, and link to the wiki:Sequence Points article.

Of course, this requires additional functionality from the SO team (although it could reuse a lot of the tag wiki infrastructure -- perhaps it could even be the tag wiki, and then we'd just need the markdown extension to make it easier to refer to it). But I think it would work much better. It avoids the pitfalls that worry me with the current FAQ:

  • the FAQ tries to replace "interactive" custom-tailored answers with canned ones written previously,
  • it encourages us to close beginners' question, which may be discouraging and come across as a message to "don't ask questions here",
  • while it may cut down on the number of bad answers, it will also cut down on the number of good ones, by replacing answers written specifically to target the OP's needs with a general answer written in advance to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.

Something like this could make it a breeze to write a high-quality answer, even if we have to do it several times a week for the same questions

Example:

Someone asks the inevitable i++ + ++i question. Rather than simply closing as a duplicate (which might sometimes be appropriate, but not as often as this FAQ implies), what I think we need is the ability to provide good answers faster. What usually slows me down is searching for good references. Either I have to make sure I get the right link to Wikipedia's article on RAII, or I need to find an existing SO answer covering sequence points.

So if I could just write a quick note on why this is undefined behavior, and that there is no sequence point, and turn the "sequence point" part into a link to, say, the tag-wiki article for [sequence-point] (or ideally, a similar wiki article, but not tied to any specific tag), then I could write a good answer in no time.

5
  • 1. It took you quite long to recognize what I wanted to solve with the FAQ. (Heck, it took me long to know that.) Others might have other ideas. So this is by no means the easy part. 2. I don't have the foggiest idea what you propose with this wiki idea. Where would I invoked [RAII] and what would be the result? 3. The way I read @waffles answer it seems that we first would have to get off the ground on our own. If this takes off, and if it later seems that specific, small improvements to the system might improve the FAQ, they would consider implementing them. ICBWT.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 15:32
  • 1
    @sbi: nah, I've known what you wanted to solve with the FAQ all along. Sorry if it seems like I "didn't get it". My problem is just I don't think the FAQ will solve it effectively, and it may have detrimental side effects Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 15:36
  • 1. If you've known this "all along", then you've known more about this than I did. The fact that the quality of those answers vary so much, and that this would be something the FAQ idea would have to tackle to be a success, only occurred to me about one or two weeks ago, while I was actively hunting for good answers to frequent dupes. 2. This is a non-argument for me: If all you want is a definitive place to link to, the C++ FAQ is out there all the time. You could have started using it last year. Yet almost nobody does so. Why? 3. I haven't heard back at all on this.
    – sbi
    Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 20:26
  • you can do it with some kind of text-replacement program, so you have your finished answers locally instead :)
    – Default
    Commented Dec 1, 2010 at 18:10
  • 1
    You can use canned comments pointing to a definitive question and/or answer for the general topic at hand, while still "considering the needs of the person asking" (as you said in a comment elsewhere here) by not proposing the canned response as an answer.
    – Fred Nurk
    Commented May 13, 2011 at 20:21
6

What does an FAQ do different from another (good) question asking that question? It also has the answers to it. And the current system, including reputation, which is not for making FAQs but questions and answers, does not work that well for it.

Another problem is moderation. Who decides what an FAQ is? Who may create and edit it? A high reputation requirement like for the wiki would fit, to make sure only people who hopefully can see what should be marked, asked, linked to, merged, included or removed can edit it. IMO the wiki fits an FAQ like I’ve seen way better than as question-answer.

The main problem is the current stackoverflow is not built for FAQ at all. It’s for ppl. to ask their real, their own questions, and not provide an FAQ.

And I don’t get how FAQ-questions are better then all the previous questions being the exact same question (after all it’s frequently asked) with already voted answers. Why and how should (new) users find and read the FAQ when they can’t find the previous questions? You’ll just point them to the FAQ and close the question? Well, you can do that already with the normal questions. Close it and point to the existing question.

Although I do see the advantage of a good quality FAQ I do wonder if this is the right place and if there’s need for it. FAQs – frequently asked questions. So they’re already there with hopefully top-notch and voted on answers. What’s wrong with editing those questions to make them more readable or sth? We don’t need to create new “questions” for that. Tagging existing questions with faq is also not a problem.

I definitely see the point of

One thing that I've noticed is that "FAQ" are often answered again, rather than closed as duplicates. I think the reputation system (unfortunately) encourages this.

though …

6

Why can questions not be closed with a pointer to the FAQ Lite?

Or with a pointer to one of the C FAQs, for that matter?

If it's technical, can't that be fixed?

Regarding usefulness of a new and SO-specific C++ FAQ, I think it's not unreasonable. It would presumably be at the level of the alt.comp.lang.learn.c-c++ FAQ, which I think was last updated in 1999... Something more up-to-date is IMO sorely needed in general, not just for SO.

However, regarding "closing" questions with reference to the FAQ, I think that's Not A Good Idea. I'm one of the moderators of [comp.lang.c++.moderated]. We can at our discretion reject articles that ask questions that are answered by the FAQ. However, time and time again we find that by allowing apparently trivial questions, fruitful discussion and new insights follow. That might or might not be the case for SO, where discussion facilities are limited, but I think it's worth keeping in mind: even the apparently most trivial questions have seldom any "final" and "the" correct answer...

(I'm intentionally posting this as an answer because it might need a sub-thread of discussion.)

10
  • 3
    "If it's technical, can't that be fixed?". I would say not. "Already covered by another resource elsewhere" isn't a valid reason to close a question because, for better or worse, StackOverflow is designed to be the One Resource to Bring Them All And In The Darkness Bind Them. You can disagree with that purpose, but I doubt you can convince the site's owners to change it. Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:05
  • @Steve Jessop - agreed, but a combination of technical and social engineering could alleviate this I think
    – Steve Townsend
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 18:20
  • 4
    Also source like the C++ FAQ Lite are controlled by a single person and a lot of the answers are opinions masqueraded as facts (and there are a couple of horrible errors). Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 20:29
  • 1
    @Alf: What Steve Jessop wrote. It's SO's goal to be the place you find an answer at when you enter your question at google, not the other way around. And Martin also has a point or two.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:42
  • @Martin: the FAQ Lite is very much a community effort, but it has an editor (Marshall Cline). In spite of the "anti-FAQ"'s ramblings there are not really many opinions expressed, or errors, because each item has been discussed in public, multiple times. A Wiki is perhaps less of a guarantee of correctness; to wit, Wikipedia articles about C++ generally have errors, and correcting them is not as simple as starting a discussion thread and e-mailing the FAQ editor. As another example, my "best" answer at SO long had a popularity score of -1. :-) The issue is IMO not correctness, but practicality. Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 2:36
  • 1
    @Alf: Voting up can be done with 15rep, so basically everyone who's asked two questions can do this, and sometimes this shows. This is the reason behind ideas like a special tag (you need 500rep to re-tag) or the tag wiki (takes 1500 to edit that). This would assert a certain "seniority" and "community approve" of the people changing things in the FAQ realm. So there's a notably difference between Wikipedia and this idea: While everyone can damage a Wikipedia article, it would take a certain amount of reputation to fiddle with SO's FAQs.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 8:02
  • 3
    If the question is one of the standard ones, then it's a dupe, and by SO rules should be closed. The FAQ would simply be a well known, easily findable, original question. I'm not saying anything against trivial questions; I've upvoted my share of them, and one of the explicit SO goals is to be a respository of all sorts of programming information. That's not the same as FAQs. Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 13:50
  • And suddenly there are 4 anonymous downvotes for this posting... :-) Would anyone care to comment on that? Commented Oct 28, 2010 at 4:06
  • 2
    @Alf, welcome to MSO! Since you haven't been around for that long, you might want to see How does MSO work? Here, downvotes mean "I disagree" or "I don't want this to be implemented," not "this is a poorly written post." Also, the current score for this post seems to be +1/-2.
    – Pops
    Commented Oct 29, 2010 at 0:26
  • 3
    @Popular Demand: thanks, so, the downvoters find my questions disagreeable, or alternatively, they disagree that a FAQ would be useful, or they're mindreaders who disagree that I think closing questions with reference to a FAQ is not a good idea, or they think a FAQ should not be implemented. Well, that clears that up! :-) I had simply not understood how this works. Cheers, Commented Oct 29, 2010 at 6:38
4

To add my opinion to the discussion:

Let me start by saying that I and many others appreciate both the knowledge and clarity of many of the C++ experts here at SO, and I believe that they should in fact be rewarded for that time and effort. However, I believe this idea of having a C++ SO FAQ unfortunately has several flaws that must be addressed before it can be fully implemented:

  1. How will the community decide whose FAQ is the SO canonical FAQ? Obviously others will add to the FAQ over time (although see point 2), but what will happen if another user creates a new FAQ covering the same ground? While it may seem like a simple merge, what happens when the FAQs are not exactly the same but very similar? At that point the community in general will have no way to express their opinion on whether they should be merged or not will be either be abusing the voting up/down feature (if the content is very clear and correct but a duplicate, should it be up-voted or down-voted?) or else voting to close the question (in which case the voice of only 5 users could outweigh the rest of the community).

  2. Why shouldn't it be marked CW? If this is something that will be edited by many people over time, it will eventually be marked CW. But why shouldn't the editors get credit as well? Although as I said before that I agree that the OP putting forth the time and effort and having the expertise should be rewarded with rep, why should only the OP get the rep? Marking it as CW will ensure that all writers and editors of the FAQ will get treated fairly. (Although it perhaps leads to another question. Is CW really CW? Perhaps the function of marking a question / answer as not deserving rep as is common on "favorite comment" or "best joke" type threads is different from the function of having an open question / answer for people to collaboratively edit? But I digress.)

  3. Somewhat related to the idea of credit: should the writer not use any of the material already found on SO, or how should the original author of the material get credited with this deserved rep? Should the writer of the FAQ insert an obligatory "If you think this topic / answer is good enough to be upvoted, also upvote these answers found (link) here, (link) here, and (link) here, as they deserve the credit and therefore rep for this information I'm using?"

  4. If these are actually frequently asked questions, why do we need to specially create an additional question asking the same to answer it? Either the question will come up again very soon (or has come up recently), or else it isn't quite so frequently asked.

  5. (somewhat related to 3) How does the community express their opinion on what is or isn't a frequently asked question? Do we start allowing just plain articles on C++ and other topics in general under a thinly veiled guise of a FAQ?

I think the collection of experts here at SO are in fact an incredible force, and awesome things could happen if we gathered even more of the SO community's in-depth knowledge of many topics into various FAQs. However, the possible problems with this idea go down to the core design of the SO process. It is an asker-initiated process. Somebody needing information on a topic asks a question at which point it is answered. Creating this FAQ flips the process on its head -- SO answers the question before it is asked. I'm not saying it is impossible, or even overly difficult, to answer common questions before they're asked -- obviously FAQs in general are popular for a reason. However, can it be done within the structure of SO as it currently stands? If not, what changes should be made?

Just my $.02.

3

This might work with the Portal/Community concept that Pekka posted about.
The Team is also working on a similar concept to his, as per the podcast.

1
  • Sounds indeed interesting, although I somewhat doubt that c++ would get its own portal under that idea as I understood it. +1 anyway, since this might give that place to put an FAQ. (Those questions/answers are just the only crutch we found to get this flying.)
    – sbi
    Commented Jun 26, 2011 at 20:35
0

I have been a member for less than a year here on Stack Overflow so I haven't seen the issues that are described here to it's full extent. But I'll make the assumption that the real issue here (that makes people leave the Stack Overflow community) is the repetitive tasks of, either linking to duplicates or correcting people about the same things over and over again.

If we consider that this behavior is here to stay, I do only see two possible solutions to this, either increase the motivation for doing these tasks or automate it.

Motivation

The only motivator we have here is reputation (and perhaps some peer credibility) and that's pretty hard to play with. How do you award commentators that comment on answers that are incorrect? The real problem I believe is that there is no accomplishment when one has been correcting these issues, because they keep coming back. And finally you give up, as Neil Butterworth did. (1)

Automation

So how do we automate this task? First off, I believe that this is up to how the high-rep users think. The automation tool should function much like how high-rep users think, such as "I've seen this one before" and "this is completely wrong" (and other thoughts and processes that these users/moderators use when sorting out bad answers and duplicates). (2)

My suggestions

(1) One solution would be to award this behavior somehow. I am thinking that this is an incitement for building a FAQ. Posts are marked (for instance with a checkbox: possible FAQ?) as FAQ by users who commonly handle these posts, building a separate wiki/FAQ/.. and thus awarding the person who performed this action, either by badges, reputation or something else completely.

(2) One solution I can think of could be to have a "how-not-to-write" (HNTW) section somewhere. Every time a new answer is posted it is matched to this section and then flagged to the poster as "This looks suspiciously much like how not to write. Are you sure that this is correct?". I guess it could work much like the search function when posting a new question, which tells of possible duplicates, however here it tells of possible don't's. How this section would be moderated I do not know, but it doesn't even have to be visible to mere mortals (like me).


I encourage a FAQ section, but at the moment I feel that it is well hidden. I do not know if it is different for new users but at the moment I have to actively search for [c++] to find it. Why not trigger this section when posting a new "C++ newbie question" or "c++ what is vector used for?". Is it linked to new users who just joined the site? Is it found on Google?

Finally

(First of, I do miss Neil as well and I haven't been here that long (I don't think 8 months is that long). Even I noticed his departure)
Does anyone have contact with Neil and listened to what he thinks? How would he be motivated to continue with the tasks that made him leave? More reputation, more badges, a price sum, helping in building a separate FAQ, etc., etc.? I think that this is really valuable input in improving, listening to the people who gave up.

How would other high-rep users feel motivated to do these tasks?

I have an idea in my head on how a FAQ could function, but time flies when you're having fun.. So I'll have to get back to that.

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  • 1
    Thanks for your thoughts, Default. (BTW, I'm a member for only 15 months by now.) However, I disagree with some of them. AFAIK, Neil went in frustration over constant bad quality and duplicity of questions, the rush of the community to harvest rep even from bad or duplicate questions, and the toothless tools to fight this. From what I understand, some highly reputed and very knowledgeable users express similar sentiments. In the comment discussion I link in my question, GMan writes "My activity is slowly waning because of these types of questions..."
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 18:45
  • 2
    Everyone who has been answering questions for a long time knows this: You see a question, know exactly that this has been asked many times before, and go on a search hunt to find something to link this to as a duplicate. After 20mins of furiously googling you give up, only to discover that 7 users have already given answers (all of them poor, because everyone who could answer better was busy trying to find these duplicates). Or you finally find one, and vote to close the question, but by then the crowd has already moved on and the question rots away with 3 close votes.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 18:50
  • That's what I want to address. I don't think requiring users to carefully read lots of text before they post a question is going to work. It's not because, if those people were that thorough, they wouldn't be posting such bad questions anyway. So what I want is for us to somewhat ease the tedious job of cleaning up after them. If I know i = ++i + i++ is in the FAQ, it takes me seconds to find it, and close the umpteenth question regarding it with a pointer to a perfect answer. That could make SO a much better place for newbies, regulars, googlers, everyone.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 18:54
  • Oh, my misunderstanding.. I'll modify my answer. But rep harvesting is hard to stop, it's the currency of SO. example: you play a game where you have two roads, one is shorter and gives alot of money (representing the wrong answer, hopefully getting rep) and one is longer but you build your empire or something for the future (this is the task of the high-rep user, building the FAQ). Players/users who don't plan on sticking around take the short road, because that's much more fun/rewarding. I don't think they think of the community in the same sense others might.
    – Default
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 19:05
  • @sbi: I just figured this was the case based on Steve Jessops answer.. Also, I unfortunately don't know about the cleanup job, because I haven't enough rep (because I try to find the correct answer instead of just throwing something in there :P). Thanks for the comments however, I'll see if I can think of something based on your input.
    – Default
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 19:10
  • 1
    @sbi: that makes me think of two things. (Actually, I still think my automation argument stands, because if we can remove the tedious tasks it might work..) first, I do believe that you come to SO to learn, that's why I am here. If I can find the answer in some FAQ that works for me. second, it could be a possibility to reward the behaviour of finding the answer yourself instead of posting your own duplicate. Although, this doesn't really address the incorrect answers...
    – Default
    Commented Oct 27, 2010 at 19:34
0

It's now more than three weeks since I posted this question and I thought it's time for a recap and to summarize what has become of it.

For you to remember, these were my original thoughts on the matter, as I had formulated them in my question:

  1. I believe that Stack Overflow is a great place to setup an FAQ as a highly dynamic, collaborative, wiki-style community effort.
  2. I believe such a project to be worthwhile and the result could be a great knowledge resource, and be a step into the direction of Stack Overflow's goal to make the web a better place.
  3. We should start with what we have (I currently see tags or the tag wiki as possible way to go, but you might have more/better ideas) and see where this takes us. In time, we could see what works and what doesn't, and whether an additional feature here or there would be an improvement.

This has sparked an incredible amount of interest and led to many hours of discussion on meta, in comments on Stack Overflow, and in the C++ chat. Here's what I see as the current state of affairs on the matter:

  • There's an effort underway to create Stack Overflow C++ FAQ.
  • It is centered around the c++-faq tag, with the tag wiki currently giving a minimal introduction.
  • Given that, anyone could tag their own question c++-faq, and anyone with enough rep could re-tag other users' questions. So this relies on collaboration of the community. I think this is seen as an advantage by most involved. Changing the tag wiki, however, requires considerably more rep. I think this, too, is seen as an advantage.
  • As the tag wiki (currently) says, the main goal IMO should be to convert existing answers to FAQ entries. Quite a few existing answers have been tagged c++faq since.
  • However, there are questions that are never asked (but which should have been asked instead of some of those which were asked), or where a good answer given would apply to many questions users ask instead, or which could only be asked once you know the right answer. Many such questions are asked repeatedly because, without knowing the answer to them, it's neigh impossible to come up with the right keywords to search for an answer. (The infamous i = ++i + i++ is such a question.)
    Many regulars are especially tired of answering these questions or pointing out existing duplicates. Because of this, many of these questions currently do not have a good answer.
  • Consequently, a few regulars set out to ask these questions and provide good, definitive answers to them. Good examples of these are this one (created even before the discussion started), this one, this one, and this one.
  • The last one sparked a discussion on meta, when one of the moderators stepped in and turned it Community Wiki, aparently after a user had flagged it for moderator's attention. From this it seems the majority of the users interested in the matter think that, when a user takes the time and puts a considerable amount of knowledge into a very comprehensive answer on some matter, then that user is entitled to gain the rep coming with this.
    (Quite a few regulars in the c++ tag expressed that they think they would make such a question/answer CW, should they provide one, but wouldn't begrudge other users the rep they might gain by asking such questions/providing the answer without flipping the CW flag.)
  • Despite the short time and (as of this moment) not even three dozen question being tagged as c++-faq so far, they have already come in very handy several times, to close duplicates. I can't speak for others, but doing this felt quite rewarding and has lifted my spirit considerably. :)

Interestingly, in the course of hunting for duplicates I found a user Kevin, who hadn't been here for more than a year, who had apparently started a similar effort more than two years ago, even using the same c++-faq tag.
Thinking about how much of what we do now was discussed and refined in the chat, and how much contribution was sparked by these discussions, I think Kevin might have been hindered by the fact that many of today's Stack Overflow features (tag wikis, chat, etc.) were still missing then, which must have been a severe hindrance to communication about th issue.

So this might be a good place to thank the Stack Overflow/Exchange crew for their work and for creating this community. I have learned so much here!

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  • 4
    Just wanted to say thanks for all your efforts. You've been putting in a great deal of effort to solve what is perceived by many of the C++ regulars (myself included) to be multi-faceted problem with SO. I don't know what is going to become of your efforts, but I do know this. If it weren't for the efforts of you and several others, this discussion wouldn't have even gotten off the ground. If this goes all the way to fruition, it will be one of the single greatest one-stop-shop resources on C++ programming in the world. You will have a lot to do with that, and I thank you. Commented Nov 18, 2010 at 17:08
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    As John said, we can thank you for the discussion ever getting off the ground, which is definitely a good thing. I'm still skeptical that this particular FAQ is the right answer to the problem, but having this debate can only ever be a good thing. Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 14:06
  • come to think of it, I think your emphasis on "closing as duplicate" is one of the main things that concern me. I've recently seen some very "forced" closes, where yes, an expert can see that these questions are the same, or that the answers are the same, but from the point of view of the person asking, they were completely different. I also think it might be too discouraging to newcomers if their questions just get closed over and over. Perhaps we need a better way to reuse answers without "close as duplicate"? I don't think closing as duplicate should "feel rewarding". Commented Nov 22, 2010 at 14:10
  • as an example of this, see stackoverflow.com/questions/4557723 for example Commented Jan 6, 2011 at 11:25
0

The FAQ part of c++faq is a meta tag. Meta tags are considered harmful.

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0

Honestly IMO, I do feel that C++ FAQ is required for the Stack Overflow community. But the problem would be on educating the same to the newbies as well as the existing users.

On the facility of editing tagged questions, I think the editing facility should be available with moderators only and as for other people who have editing facility on normal questions can actually have an option similar to flagging for C++ tagged questions to bring moderator's notice if required.

Also, most often the questions are repeated because people are probably lazy enough to not search for answers that are already available.

1
  • Sachin, regarding the mixed level of knowledge, I see myself as quite knowledgeable when it comes to C++, and yet I learn so much every week, I wouldn't mind being pointed at an FAQ entry.
    – sbi
    Commented Oct 26, 2010 at 22:53
-1

Why create Stack Overflow factions? The honest answer is the C++ "community" on Stack Overflow is not a unique snowflake. The R "community" on Stack Overflow is similarly territorial about "their" questions I've found.

There is already a feature which handles "creating a FAQ" for common questions, Vote to Close as Exact Duplicate and point them to the user asked question with the canonical answer. Ask a moderator to merge your questions.

Edit: basically, it appears this is a proposal to circumvent how Stack Overflow works (through no CW's, a desire to restrict edits to high rep users, "meta tags", et al).

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  • Re your first paragraph: I have no idea what you're talking about. Re the second one: You might want to actually read the arguments we had over this last year. And if you don't find them convincing, then please go and show us the perfect question to close all the ++i + i++ ones as dupe of.
    – sbi
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 18:56
  • @sbi: I read the For arguments and remain unconvinced. I'm not sure how ++i + i++ questions (which are frequent as you point out), don't have plenty of duplicates which can be merged. As for my first paragraph, I'm referring to questions which would be "off topic" save for a vocal community which keeps them open.
    – user7116
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 19:01
  • @sixlettervariables: Well, I said what you might want to try in case you were unconvinced: Find the perfect question to close all the ++i + i++ as dupes of. And all those "aren't arrays and pointers the same" ones. And the ones asking for a crash because some newbie didn't know the Rule of Three. And find them fast. For me, it takes about 45secs to find those now (which is faster than even the fastest never-mind-the-dupes-I-want-rep answerer can sneak in their first draft). Can you do better without the FAQ? (Heck, just find me a good ++i + i++ candidate in any time.)
    – sbi
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 19:07
  • @sbi: so instead of either closing the question as a dupe of an existing user question (because it is one) you're going to tell them not only have the C++ Experts asked it better, but they've answered better than anyone else as well! I find that to fly in the face of SO. I don't doubt the efficacy of the FAQ, nor the legitimacy. I just doubt it belongs on SO. If the C++ Experts are that tired of "again and again answering the same newbie questions" they can start up a blog. If it is worth reading, people will visit. I still fail to see where C++ is unique to needing an FAQ on SO.
    – user7116
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 22:17
  • @sixlettervariables: I can't help but notice that you still haven't shown me the ideal ++i + i++ question to close all new ones as a dupe of. Nor any of the others I suggested. Please excuse me if I can't take someone too serious who explains that our means to solve a problem aren't necessary, because what we see as a problem isn't one, but then can't fix it either.
    – sbi
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 22:49
  • @sbi: I'm asking if they aren't dupes of each other are you proposing to close them as a dupe of the FAQ? If that is your plan, then my comment stands. I'd close any question asking ++i + i++ which does not add substantively to this question as a dupe. I'm still failing to see your problem. If they aren't dupes, don't close them. If they are dupes, close them. If the C++ Experts find answering to be tedious, they don't have to answer.
    – user7116
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 23:14
  • @sbi: In short, you haven't shown me you have a problem besides not wanting to answer questions (or close them).
    – user7116
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 23:19
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    @Tomalak: It seems odd to me that C++, above all others, needs a "FAQ" to close down "tedious repetitive questions", when other languages (say C#) get by without it. I haven't seen Jon Skeet or Eric Lippert (C# Experts) ask a question, tag it as [C#-FAQ], and vote to close repeated questions pointing to their self answered questions.
    – user7116
    Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 23:27
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    @sixlettervariables: That other groups "get by without it" is not, in itself, an argument against doing it. It wound me up earlier this year when I kept hearing people in the UK say "we shouldn't introduce the Alternative Vote, because there's a reason that only four other countries implement it", as if suddenly all the other democracies in the world could be considered as perfect and beyond improvement. It's a complete logical fallacy. (Note, though, that, along the same lines, this comment constitutes neither a "for" nor an "against" vote for C++-FAQ in any way.) Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 23:38
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    @sixlettervariables: Yes, C++ as a tag is a bit of a cesspool. I don't think that this is entirely un-"StackOverflow-like". I'm also not entirely convinced whether it's appropriate to have a FAQ like this, but at the same time I'm intimately familiar with how damn well it seems to work in practice, so... Commented Jun 23, 2011 at 23:51
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    @Tomalak: self answering a question to use to vote to close other questions with is a bit SO-unlike. Also, a meta tag like C++-FAQ is similarly un-SO. The "cesspool questions" on SO are not repeated newbie questions, but usually fluff like "What is the name of -->" or "Printing 1 to 1000 without loops". Those questions distract from questions that have value: user questions.
    – user7116
    Commented Jun 24, 2011 at 0:03
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    @sixlettervariables: ... which is precisely why we close them and direct the OP to a catch-all FAQ entry on the general topic. Although I have reservations about arguments being based on whatever your personal definition of "un-SO-like" might happen to be, this all does work well in practice. Avoiding it just because it doesn't fit your idea of how SO should work seems counter-productive. Commented Jun 24, 2011 at 8:55
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    @sixlettervariables In fact, asking questions and answering them yourself has been an accepted practice on SO since the very beginning (unless that has changed recently without my noticing) so the C++ FAQ appears to be much more in-system than you claim. Furthermore, I don’t think the C++ FAQ is inherently tied to self-answering. Several genuine user questions have been converted to FAQ entries as far as I know. The [c++-faq] tag just makes them imminently more findable. Do you oppose that? On what grounds? Commented Jun 26, 2011 at 18:13
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    @sixlettervariables But it isn’t a useless tag, that claim is trivially false. It is used to classify questions and greatly improves searchability. Which is the prime use of tagging. Commented Jun 26, 2011 at 18:42
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    @sixlettervariables “What makes it worthy of [C++-FAQ]? No objective criteria exists besides what the "C++ Experts" deem worthy” – Congratulations, you have succinctly described how Stack Overflow works – and basically any knowledge curation system. And even if that were a real problem, it wouldn’t change the fact that the [c++-faq] tag is imminently useful for the reason I mentioned: it makes searching for particular solutions much easier. Commented Jun 26, 2011 at 18:50

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