-51

It seem that with the sudden increase in popularity, SO is developing some problems, bad/lazy questions (I'm guilty of this myself, it's hard to get a grasp on the SO atmosphere when you first start), good programmers answering less questions as a result, etc.

I'm no expert and wouldn't meet most of these qualifications but I would be glad to ask questions in this kind of platform.

As annoying as it is to see lazy/under-researched questions, it's also very discouraging and counter-productive to have high-rep users down-voting new users' questions so frequently and scoffing at their lack of knowledge. A recent complaint is the lack of care that some users are putting into their questions and such and as a relatively inexperienced developer, I can tell you that it's easy to adopt that attitude when experiencing the aforementioned negative interactions.

So my question is do you guys think that SO would benefit from a structure much like the one I've outlined below? Would it calm the waters between new users and those who want to get down to business and promote more activity and friendly/helpful interactions or would it just make it more difficult to get questions answered and be to hard to manage?

(Reputation points or some other type of question quality based rating would need to be tuned in after some experimenting but I'll give some example numbers.)
====================================================

Tier 1 (reputation ~<=100)

Questions posted by users in the tier 1 show up only to users in tier1 and tier 2.

New users and inexperienced programmers would still be able to learn SO etiquette and get help from those a little more experienced than them without clogging the feed up for the experts.

====================================================

Tier 2 (reputation ~<=300)

Questions from tier 1 and tier 2 show up for these users. Answering questions gets reputation points as is the current setup but to advance to tier 3 you would have to answer, say, 20 tier 1 questions with your answer having at least one upvote.

This would be kind of a probationary tier before moving on to three, if tier 2 guys(and gals) are serious about SO and programming then it will show.

====================================================

Tier 3 (reputation ~<=500)

Questions from and only from (unless they specify otherwise) tier 3 show up for these guys. The exception could be tier 2 questions with a bounty or a set number of upvotes (3?) with no answers that has been open for more than a set number of days (3?).

People who are deploying real world applications and need help or want to offer help don't get tangled up with noob questions and are still available for those questions that really need an expert opinion.

====================================================

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  • 80
    Reputation != Skill. Reputation != Knowledge. Reputation != Knowing to ask a good question. Reputation != Effort.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:23
  • 9
    So "Tier 1" users can't get help from "Tier 3" users? Also, rep != knowledge
    – codeMagic
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:23
  • 39
    Would "Tier 1" users actually be learning SO etiquette if they were surrounded by low rep users with bad questions? Or would they reach "Tier 3" and say "hey, no 1 was ever bothered by my speling B4!" Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:23
  • 19
    This is Meta. Downvotes can and do many times indicate disagreement with the idea.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:28
  • 1
    To a certain extent the downvotes express what people think already @Craig.
    – Ben
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:36
  • 1
    The main reason not to do this is that rep is not a useful indicator of anything, except that if it's not going up you're not contributing.
    – Puppy
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:37
  • I don't think rep is necessarily the answer, the idea is some performance/quality based rating on the user. @Ben, though an interesting idea the link you provided lets the "asker" decide the quality of their question; whereas, In this structure it would be decided based on previous performance. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:40
  • 11
    @CraigPatrickLafferty: Multiple people did comment on why they disagreed with your idea Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:51
  • 3
    Your title alone is inducing people to say/vote "yes, it's a terrible idea"
    – brasofilo
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 21:56
  • 8
    I don't like this idea. In order to get to tier 3, expert users are forced to answer bad, junk questions in tiers 1 and 2. Instant turn-off. Also, downvotes on Meta are used to express disagreement, not just reflect question quality. Yeah, it's kind of annoying and confusing, but at least there's no rep loss for it now after the spin-off of Meta Stack Exchange :/ Also, FYI, calling people "trolls" isn't going to win you any upvotes on this question either :P
    – user456814
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 18:37
  • See also Allow users to optionally filter out low-quality questions and What is Stack Overflow’s goal?.
    – user456814
    Commented May 22, 2014 at 7:27
  • 3
    amount of downvotes on this, combined with the title "Would it be a terrible idea", suggest that it would not be a terrible idea... (sometimes brainless meta voting creates funny effects)
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 14:55
  • It's probably far more beneficial for expert users to be answering these "newbie" questions so that they are more often answered with good quality answers rather than guesses.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:17
  • 2
    What about a two tier system with Jon Skeet in the top tier and everyone else in the bottom tier?
    – Joe W
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:19
  • 2
    @gnat: "my question is do you guys think that SO would benefit from a structure" Problem with titles that are the logical inverse of the actual question.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 23:47

7 Answers 7

53

First, I wouldn't be discouraged by downvotes on a proposal like this. People are expressing disagreement with the core proposal, nothing more. It's not a poorly asked question or unclear, just that many of us feel that what you describe is simply a bad direction for the site to go in.

A tiered site, following the architecture you describe, would lead to a bad experience for all involved and would create a sort of ivory tower for existing members. By only allowing low-reputation users to see questions by other low-reputation users, you're effectively creating a "blind leading the blind" scenario.

All users by nature must start at a low reputation score. Some of these users ask bad questions, but some ask very good ones. For the latter, this would mean that these good questions would not be seen by many of the people who could answer them. This would not serve the purpose of this site as being a repository of high-quality answers to questions. I personally regularly answer good, interesting questions asked by new users and don't want those hidden from me.

A tiered site also won't help the most common users of Stack Overflow: anonymous visitors who come to the site via Google. They won't care what "tier" something belongs to, just whether or not there is a good solution to the problem they are having. All of those questions by low-rep users will be fully visible to anonymous Google searches. By preventing experts from seeing or answering good questions by low-rep users, future searchers won't have solutions to draw on to those questions.

I can tell you right now that a system that gates visibility of your question based on your reputation will lead to a significant increase in voting fraud (sock puppets, voting rings, etc.). Reputation points mean little now, and still people regularly try to cheat the system. If reputation points determine whether experts will even see your question, you can bet that people will do whatever they can to cheat their way into that ivory tower.

Spam will also hang around a little longer, since spammers are always low-rep users and their posts will only be visible to other low-rep users who probably won't be familiar enough with the site to know how to flag it properly.

There might be ways to address poor questions by new users, but I don't believe this is the right way to do so.

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  • 2
    Many good points. By only allowing low-reputation users to see questions by other low-reputation users, you're effectively creating a "blind leading the blind" scenario. I wasn't very clear, low-reputation users could see high reputation questions and answers, just not the other way around. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 22:36
  • 16
    It wasn't unclear. That's the whole problem. The other low-rep users are very likely to be completely unqualified to give good answers. I shudder to think what horrible answers about Unicode or SQL injection would be the best answers to Tier 1 questions.
    – Wooble
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 22:44
  • Regarding downvbotes, as I point out in the footnote here, all metas proposing strong change are heavily downvoted .. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/255366 SO, both the corporation and the users, are very moribund. It's a late-stage organisation, not a startup.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 19, 2014 at 7:56
  • 2
    @JoeBlow the linked proposal seems particularly moribund - personally I feel fine, as I'm sure do most other users =). Questions on meta proposing change that the users don't agree with get downvoted, because that's what votes mean on meta: agreement/disagreement. Suggesting a drastic change to the model on which SE is based is obviously likely to provoke strong opinions, and thus encourage voting.
    – AD7six
    Commented May 19, 2014 at 12:38
  • 1
    Hmm, I don't see any examples of the crowd going for any drastic change suggestions... it's a mature, slow-moving organisation now.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 19, 2014 at 13:13
  • @JoeBlow - Suggestions don't get downvoted simply because they suggest significant change. If something is downvoted on Meta, it's usually because people think this particular change is a really bad idea. Your suggestion, in my opinion, is a terrible idea because it does away with the one motivator that has been key in the success of the SE sites. Moribund? I'd argue that the pace of change has accelerated at SE as of late, with significant structural changes being undertaken every week.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 19, 2014 at 14:23
  • Gosh, I don't see it man .. significant structural change????? The one you linked to is tinkering with some threshold amounts. (Perhaps even worse/funnier than my laughable, "late-stage corporate America" "size of logo" example...which one could hardly make-up if being sarcastic.) "Significant change" would be: -- move to an entirely paid model. -- make the site operate only with video rather than text -- change to 100% anonymous model .. and so on.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 19, 2014 at 14:32
21

Please note that splitting the platform somehow works with Mathematics. I don't know why.

There is MathOverflow. There you read a question, swallow hard, leave and read silently a book in order to understand the question. You know instinctively, with your knowledge as a math layman, your question or answer won't do any good here. It is marked clearly as "for professional Mathematicians".

Then there is Mathematics, where everybody can ask everything: complex theories, funny riddles, homework (well prepared) etc.

What's the reason that this works with mathematics? Could this somehow contribute to the quality of StackOverflow?

Just for an impulse.

5
  • 3
    I believe one key part of the difference is the high possible level of abstraction in mathematics. I have studied maths at the university for five years and can't grasp most of the content at MO. On the flip side, most people can understand just about any programming concept in just a few months.
    – Hjulle
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 4:44
  • My point is that the step toward being an expert on a specific programming concept is not too long. Programming knowledge is mostly wide, while maths knowledge is deep. Of course this is a generalization and there are a ton of exceptions.
    – Hjulle
    Commented Oct 23, 2015 at 4:48
  • 2
    I don't think the MathOverflow/Mathematics split is a good example of what people are actually asking for when they want SO to be tiered. By the time people get out of high school they'll have years of math under their belt, and there is a comparatively much higher volume of "math problems" that people have (or should) figure out in their everyday life than "programming problems". It makes sense that the question about calculating the number of tiles needed in a bathroom remodel and the question about Riemannian manifold would be on different sites.
    – Louis
    Commented Jan 14, 2016 at 12:47
  • The proposals to split SO into a tiered platform would be more akin to spliting MathOverflow into a section for beginner mathematicians and one for experienced mathematicians.
    – Louis
    Commented Jan 14, 2016 at 12:49
  • cs.stackexchange.com is equivalent "need a book to understand answer" tier for SO... Commented Mar 27, 2020 at 0:36
10

I see a lot of questions which are being redirected to here that relate to the concerns of separating the site for beginners from intermediates/experts, so I want to answer the general question and not specifically this tiered proposal.

I like the general idea of separating the site into a section for beginners somehow (not exactly sure how, and I don't think it should be based on rep). I realize there's this concern that you could end up having beginners or intermediates answering beginner questions instead of the most advanced users answering the most basic beginner questions, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Beginners/Intermediates Teaching Beginners

I see a lot of people referring to this as the "blind leading the blind", but only a blind person can understand what it's like to not be able to see. If a blind person wants to learn how to best navigate the world without sight, the best teacher is going to be someone in the same boat but has at least slightly more experience doing it. I realize this is twisting the metaphor, but a child doesn't necessarily learn the most strictly through adults. He/she might learn a whole lot from his/her slightly-older brother/sister, e.g. What the parents teach will start to click more and more as they get older, but even from parent to child, the child often needs the world modeled in a simplistic way to understand it (and their peers, closer to the child's age, will make more sense doing that). People tend to learn the most from those who can relate the most to their situation.

I taught CS 101 and 102 for a brief period, and what I found, especially in 101, is that some of the slower students need a beginner-style answer to a beginner-style question. All the technically-precise answers only served to confuse such students further until a peer student chipped in and explained things in a way to them which was overly simplistic and technically imprecise, but made perfect sense to that beginner student. Beginners and intermediates still remember what it's like to be a total beginner and how they tend to think about things, and what they struggle with.

We're talking about people who couldn't even fully understand a textbook designed for beginners, after all. This is not a case where you want to look around and find the most advanced expert to resolve the confusion.

As an example, I had a student tell another that a C++ class can access private members from external instances of the same class because "classes are basically friends unto themselves". That description made me grimace a bit, but it gave that confused student an eureka moment where everything started to click for him.

The danger of this is that sometimes these informal beginner-style answers can lead to bad habits where the student can end up being convinced that the technically inaccurate answer is accurately describing the situation. We don't want to end up with a 30-year old virgin who thinks that babies are made merely by two people falling in love. Such a simplistic understanding can be a useful stepping stone, but the goal is for it to serve as a stepping stone towards a more complete understanding. Unfortunately there are cases where sometimes the stepping stone is not treated as such and we find this kind of scenario.

But it's often a necessary stepping stone for a beginner to establish some informal mental models of how things work which aren't perfectly accurate. If I showed the ISO C++ standard document to an absolute beginner to C++, little good can be expected as an outcome, only a beginner more confused than ever before. It's the most technically precise document on the language, it's also the most beginner-unfriendly. A language lawyer well-versed in the ISO C++ standard could probably pick apart and tear a new one even for the most advanced answers on this site by nitpicking at the smallest technical inaccuracies and informalities in favor of utmost degree of pedantry, but that level of technical precision would even intimidate a lot of experts if they face this kind of Spanish inquisition who would cite page 647 of the language standard, section 4.7.3, as subtly in conflict with the answer provided when applying the strictest and most literal interpretation.

Expert/Novice Pairings

Just like in pair programming, it's often not recommended to establish an expert-novice pairing since the novice can be intimidated and the expert can see it as a waste of time since the learning/understanding benefits are going one way (from expert to beginner). It can quickly shift to a point where the expert is doing all the work and even more work than he would have to do alone because of the novice tagging along.

The same goes for teacher/student kind of settings. You don't necessarily want Mozart to teach a primary school beginner class on how to play harpsichord. To teach a beginner requires thinking like a beginner, and an ultra advanced teacher is going to have forgotten what that's like.

Imagine trying to teach a beginner how garbage collection works in Java from a perspective relating to paging, locality of reference and the CPU cache, machine instructions, thread safety, and cyclical referencing. A very advanced user would be tempted to do that, and it would just fly over the head of the beginner. Albert Einstein isn't necessarily the ideal person to ask a child-like question about how gravity works, even if the question is formulated beautifully and concisely.

Imagine a super advanced legendary programmer like John Carmack or Linus Torvalds answering a beginner C question about pointers. They might provide the best answer from a professional, technically-precise perspective, but it wouldn't necessary be the most helpful answer to the beginner. It'd also be a complete waste of their time and expertise.

Basic Idea

So I really like this basic idea even though all the questions I see related to this are not so popular here on meta. The site has so much traffic for it and both beginners and advanced alike seem frustrated.

Tiered Site

I'm not sure I like this approach of tiering the site based on reputation. While it's often true that very high-rep users are experienced, it's not necessarily so true in the reverse sense that all low-rep users are inexperienced.

After all, if Linus Torvalds signs up today (assuming he isn't already a member), he'd be a 0-rep user. He might even be too busy maintaining the Linux kernel to get far past that point. The last thing we should do is force him to grind through beginner questions just because of his site reputation before he can get to the juicy stuff.

What I find from the attitude of genuine beginners on this site (independent of reputation) is that they seem to welcome this basic idea as well (not tiered necessarily). A basic question about how pointers work in C++ or how to concatenate strings in, say, Python isn't going to benefit much from an expert answer, and the beginners seem aware enough of their own status for the most part to opt into a beginner section/tag (something of this sort) for their question.

This isn't to encourage off-topic questions. Those should be moderated and filtered out regardless. I'm talking about questions that are legit by SO standards but still too basic to be anything more than a waste of time for the most professional and enthusiastic developers.

Intermediates might still partake being closer to the beginner. People who have used SO for a long time but are still at a beginner programming stage might also partake but help to enforce the site's rules given that they're experienced with the site even if they're not experienced developers.

I'm also in the pro category as a professional developer who has been coding professionally for decades and even longer before that, but I might also have a peek from time to time in a beginner's section to see how things are going there. I imagine other pros would do the same from time to time if, say, the number of advanced questions are few in number on a slow day.

It seems like a potential win-win to me if done right, but naturally there are a lot of ways this can go wrong. But I think there's definitely a problem right now where all these ultra basic beginner questions are spilling out, leaving the experts uninspired, bored, yearning to see more interesting questions that can't simply be answered by a beginner or the FGITW, while the beginners are getting frustrated -- exactly the kind of situation that pair programming warns about against novice/expert pairings. Too much of a disparity in experience doesn't often lead to a productive environment. Too little is probably also bad, but too much is definitely counter-productive for both mentor and student, yielding uninspired mentors and intimidated students.

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    The thought had crossed my mind that instead of completely separating into tiers by reputation, questions that don't fit the format could go to a separate site where they don't "pollute" stack overflow but others, including newer users, could still attempt to answer them. The potential result is twofold: questions that don't fit are distinguished from "lazy" questions. They still might not get answered, but the perception is less negative. And then newer users have an opportunity to help others. But it's not a segregation between new and experienced users for either questions or answers. Commented May 15, 2019 at 16:53
  • "All the technically-precise answers only served to confuse such students further until a peer student chipped in and explained things in a way to them which was overly simplistic and technically imprecise, but made perfect sense to that beginner student." - imprecision is not the same as incorrectness, and an effort like this can nearly always be refined (by someone who knows better) to improve accuracy without sacrificing clarity to the target audience. Well-organized material for beginners, of course, should start with something "overly simplistic", as much as possible. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 16:10
4

I agree with BL that, one would guess, a tiered system would just lead to more problems.

BUT ......

As I mention here,

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/252967/294884

you can see the insanity that is the possible future of SO, if you glance at the (once excellent) answers.Unity site.

There's simply "no hope" for that site now, jot's past the point where any action could be taken.

By the way - I thin your "tier" system is way too complex. What you'd do, perhaps, is simply have "an advanced section", that simple. Just sort of an extra-bonus area up top of the page; rather than a ghettoisation of poor questions.

You could try a few different mechanisms on that: only high-points users could click something in to the danced section, high-points users can demote questions to not-advanced, high-points users could put their own questions in advanced .. whatever; you'd have toy try a few.

Again my point here is, glance at answers.unity to "see the future" - maybe something as radical as a tier system is the answer.

3

Proposals like these miss the point completely

I see people suggest things like this all the time, and indeed many questions get dupe-hammered back here. It's time that I said my piece about the subject.

These suggestions are all, every single one, based on a deep and fundamental misconception.

Beginners vs. newbies

The appropriate place for beginner-level questions - meaning, questions about things that a beginner needs to know about, and have explained on a level that a beginner can understand - about programming... is Stack Overflow, side by side with all the complex stuff. Sometimes, such a question is just the start point for deeper considerations that entail much more sophisticated understanding. There is no reason why such answers can't be side-by-side: a canonical, community-wiki answer that presents an overview of basic techniques, with simple code examples; and then separate answers offering more technical detail and sophistication.

There is absolutely nothing about "becoming an expert" that prevents someone from being able to explain a concept at a beginner level. It's true that many experts are not good at explaining their ideas, but that's because this is a completely separate and independent skill - one which many people have never bothered to develop, if the idea even occurred to them. However, for someone who is already good at explaining ideas, more domain knowledge is only ever an asset, not a liability.

On the other hand, the appropriate place for a newbie question - meaning, asked by someone who is behaving like a newbie, regardless of actual experience level or domain knowledge - is not on Stack Overflow. In an ideal world, the appropriate place for such questions is not anywhere on the Internet - or indeed, anywhere outside the originator's own mind; they would go un-asked, because that thought should be the prompt to start the process of creating a properly-asked, beginner-level question.

After all - just look at any of the actual discussion forums out there. They're magnets for such questions, and it's often readily apparent that the people answering hate that. All the code-of-conduct-enforced smiles through gritted teeth in the world can't hide this simple truth.

It is my sincere belief - from decades of life experience, attempting to learn about many topics, arguably gaining something resembling expertise in some of them, and sincerely reflecting on all of that - that this principle is universal. It applies just as well to recreational, or even purely physical, pursuits as to the most academic, cerebral ones.

Stack Overflow loves easy questions

And it should. It's perfectly fine if we have Q&A that can be easily answered by a web search - after all, in a large fraction of cases Stack Overflow is the reason why that's the case. Documentation for libraries usually doesn't go far enough; what's needed is "reverse documentation" that maps the task to an API call (along with explaining the arguments), rather than documentation that maps an API call (along with its parameters) to its functionality.

I'm going to cite myself from a post in the Meta category for Codidact Software (with some minor content edits, and adding more links that didn't seem relevant to that discussion):

...the reason SO has been successful (to the extent that it has) isn't because there are millions of questions; it's because some of those questions get millions of views. Here are the top ten most viewed. By my reckoning, that is:

None of this is esoteric or complicated. ...questions in general aren't bad because they're easy. These questions are superior because they're easy.

What makes a newbie question?

Essentially, a bunch of the existing closure reasons (allowing some minor variance in interpretation, which I know I've butted heads with other curators about in the past) capture the idea pretty well. Duplicates aside, they:

  • fail to establish a proper problem specification and/or MRE as applicable ("needs debugging details");

  • ramble, and/or misuse terminology in idiosyncratic ways that confuse would-be answerers or would make it difficult or impossible for others with the problem to search for the question (typically "needs details or clarity"; potentially "not reproducible");

  • demonstrate a basic failure of analysis or logical reasoning that stands independent of actually writing the code (typically "not reproducible" unless it reflects a common and recognizable logical fallacy; sometimes "needs details or clarity"; rarely off-topic);

  • last but certainly not least, fail to break a complex task into logical steps and then consider which if any of these are actually causing difficulty - or whether it's actually reasonable to expect a built-in solution for the combination ("needs more focus").

It's vital to emphasize here, again, that absolutely none of that has anything whatsoever to do with the difficulty of the material. Nor does it have anything to do with the person asking. While one would generally hope that people with more experience are better at asking questions generally, that often doesn't bear out.

There's nothing that prevents a beginner from typing "How can I list all files of a directory in FooLang and add them to a list?" into the form, choosing some appropriate tags, and submitting it. (The actual initial effort for corresponding Python question was, indeed, not substantially different from what we have now.) Of course, it's 13 years too late to do that for Python, but duplicates are duplicates - that says nothing about the actual question quality.

On the flip side, I have seen many users with accounts over a decade old who seem utterly clueless about the fundamentals of both a) asking questions on Stack Overflow, per the how-to-ask guidelines and b) analyzing a task, debugging code (e.g. per Eric Lippert's excellent guide, also linked via the how-to-ask page) and otherwise thinking about problems.

In my mind, those users are newbies, and it might not be correctable at this point.

Recap

Quoting myself again:

The bad questions on SO mainly don't suck because of being about things that beginners need to know, want to know, or could wonder about. They suck because beginners are asking them, and because beginners are asking them in the context of their own personal struggle, lacking the necessary perspective to ask a good question.

When you let a beginner ask the question, what you get often doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Often multiple entirely unrelated problems are conflated or combined. Sometimes it takes considerable experience to ask about a basic problem correctly. Often it takes experience to notice a pattern (or here, or here...) in how beginners fail, even if it's "a typo", and look for ultimate causes of that failure.

A "good easy" question is one where the refinement has been done up front.... Beginners usually don't know how..., which is where the bad impression of "beginner questions" really comes from. Worse, the bad questions often get followed up with help vampirism, for basically all the same reasons that led the question to be bad in the first place.

-10

We cannot expect from beginners to estimate themselves correctly. Also beginner (mainly as programming experience but also as SO user) probably will not know that there is newbie tag and will not use it. I.e. only other users can flag a question as beginner's and this cannot be normal tag because only the author can choose tags. Some people say that there is voting system and a downvote is enough to do the job. But even beginners have the right to ask for help and there are people who want to answer on such questions. So, it is not correct to delete downvoted questions. If there is new feature, it is new flag (like close below each question) for newbie questions and corresponding option to hide such questions (or show only them - for these who want to help newbies).

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  • 7
    You are right with everything, until you assert they have a right to ask their questions. Asking questions is a privilege, predicated on asking a useful on-topic question. And the problem with that overwhelming majority of beginner questions this question is about is that they aren't, at best they are requests for personal tutoring... Commented Jan 14, 2016 at 13:44
-15

I would think that a simple Beginner tag could work wonders. Self-conscious users could tag their own questions, or they could be tagged by readers.

My rationale is that readers unwilling to deal with trivial or imperfect questions can gray beginner questions out by putting the Beginner tag in their ignore list. But they could still work on them if they feel like it!

The currently available means are sometimes not appropriate: A close vote seems to harsh, a down vote helps only the other readers (that's something, admittedly), an edit or comment for clarification is often too much effort for the non-rewarding question.

Tagging a question would require little effort, be fair and still expose the question to experienced readers who have time or are in a generous mood or just happen to have a quick answer. A tiered system, by contrast, would rather not do that (the experienced user would have to make a conscious effort to go there).

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    We can't have a tag that basically says "this question is allowed to ignore question guidelines"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:18
  • 1
    @KevinB It wouldn't say that. It would not allow anything that would not be allowed without it. Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:22
  • So, the poor quality questions would continue to get downvotes and closevotes, and these new users would continue to get annoyed. What does the tag solve?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:23
  • 1
    @KevinB It would be a message to potential readers where a downvote (which is currently used to communicate "don't bother") would seem to harsh. But perhaps you are right -- if it's an original question, no dup, clearly worded, not trivially findable in the man page: it would not get that tag.-- I htink my idea was that there is a category of questions which need some editing and prodding to make them acceptable. But the effort is too big for the question, unless it's the good deed for the day or something. Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:29
  • 1
    @kevin the idea was that users who don't want to see those questions can hide them.
    – Pekka
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:33
  • 1
    Ah, so, kinda like the new "triage" and "help and improvement" queues, only less automated.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 21, 2015 at 22:35

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