76

Today 100 days passed from the day that Meta Stack Overflow was split from Meta Stack Exchange.

I was a initially a bit negative about the split, as I thought that the lack of reputation would limit participation. On the contrary, after 100 days, my experience has been positive for the following reasons:

  • I enjoy having my Stack Overflow privileges on meta, without having to earn them all over again.
  • I like that fact that downvotes are free. I find that people are less annoyed by downvotes, as they don't affect either their reputation, or their proximity to a ban.
  • My experience has been much more positive in terms of voting (up/down ratio = 5 on MSE, 38.5 (!!!)) on MSO.
  • The community bulletin now attracts more people to meta, making it more indicative of the community as a whole.

Disadvantages:

  • We can't offer bounties on meta-posts any more

So what do you think about the split?

  • Was the split a good idea?
  • Do you find the new system better than the old one?
  • Should something have been done differently?
15
  • 52
    It was a horrible idea because now I'm not gaining as much reputation on MSE and Oded has passed me up. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 5:34
  • 15
    One of the things I miss on MSE (and on other SE sites where I don't have enough rep) is the ability to see the details of upvotes and downvotes. It's quite frequent to have opinions that divide on Meta, so a +5 could come from a +5-0 or a +40-35, which actually don't quite represent the same thing. I can see that on Meta.SO, but I can no longer see when the votes were made (on my questions/answers).
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 9:21
  • 11
    It's not the same community any more :-(. MSO isn't as interesting as it's missing a number of the people on MSE who aren't SO users and MSE isn't as interesting 'cause it's not as busy and has lost some people to MSO.
    – Ben
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 12:31
  • 2
    @Bruno: there are some bookmarklet apps (shameless self advertisement) that can get this data for you from the API
    – SztupY
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 16:29
  • 3
    @Bruno I've created a Chrome extension and a user script that adds seamless integration of the vote counts as if the privilege limitation does not exist: stackapps.com/questions/3082/view-vote-totals-without-1000-rep.
    – Rob W
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 16:49
  • 1
    How is this question constructive?
    – djechlin
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:13
  • 18
    @djechlin How is that comment constructive? Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:25
  • 1
    @TheGuywithTheHat it was a question. questions are usually asked to elicit answers, that might inform the asker of something of interest. if your answer is the best, I will now proceed to vote to close this question.
    – djechlin
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:26
  • 8
    Hmm, the discussion tag, "A tag for questions that may not necessarily have a clear-cut right or wrong answer and are often subjective."...
    – Sam
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:33
  • I dislike not seeing MetaSE topics in the bulletin, instead all i see are MetaSO topics. Otherwise, i like the split.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:57
  • 6
    You should also ask this on Meta SE. You would probably get a totally different response. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 19:39
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot I actually thought of that at one point, but cross-posting is generally discouraged. It would be better if somebody else did it.
    – user000001
    Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 4:19
  • 11
    Primarily opinion based? Seriously, on Meta? I've got a wet noodle, and I'm not afraid to use it, you've been warned people.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 15:31
  • The main problem is that I've now visited MSO every day it's been alive (accidentally). Having realised this am I going to try to keep it up?
    – Ben
    Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 18:26
  • A lot of people keep putting bugs on MSO, which is annoying. Also, I actually lose privileges after making bounties. Also also, several questions shouldn’t have been migrated.
    – Ry- Mod
    Commented Jul 28, 2014 at 4:26

8 Answers 8

39

The only real downside, if I could call it one, is that my participation on Meta Stack Exchange is virtually nonexistent.

But, since I'm really participating more with Stack Overflow as a whole instead of the overall network, I'm not seeing it as necessarily a bad thing. It means that I'm participating in less esoteric, network-wide discussions and features, but for the most part, I'm okay with that.

1
  • 14
    Same here. It's not that I don't visit MSE on purpose, I just seem to forget it exists sometimes.
    – user247702
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 22:25
32

My personal thoughts of The Split™,

Benefits,

  • Follows the SRP principle (which in itself entails a lot of other benefits),
  • Better organisation. It's easier to find bugs/feature requests that target the entire SE network (rather then just SO),

Disadvantages,

  • You still get Q/A banned (only applies to MSE. Debatable whether this is actually a bad thing though),
  • Easier to post duplicates, since now you have to search both MSO and MSE (not everyone does this, I certainly forget at times),
  • MSE now seems like a "shiny alienated global Meta HQ" (to be blunt).

Generally speaking, I stand neutral regarding the split. There are both positives and negatives, but at the end of the day (from an objective point of view), I'd have to say there's an overall advantage to having MSE.

Although, there is room for improvement, such as,

  • Include posts from MSE in the "Questions that may already have your answer" box when you go to ask a question,
  • Make it possible for posts on here (MSO) and all other Meta sites to get marked as a duplicate of a post on MSE (and vice versa),
  • Include posts from MSE in the "related" sidebar for all Meta sites.

Besides that, I can't think of anything else that hasn't been already mentioned.

5
  • 2
    I like the ideas for improvement, especially the first and the third bullet.
    – user000001
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:18
  • 3
    "You still get Q/A banned" - Question bans are disabled on Meta.SO. I think answer bans are still enabled, but I'd need to check on that. I don't know any non-spammer who's hit an answer ban on any Meta site. If someone's asking a series of poorly-received questions on Meta, we'd need to manually suspend their main account to get them to stop (they'd need to be seriously abusive for this to even be considered).
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 17:53
  • @BradLarson You still get Q/A banned on MSE. I guess I should've been more specific.
    – Sam
    Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 18:21
  • "Make it possible for posts on here (MSO) and all other Meta sites to get marked as a duplicate of a post on MSE (and vice versa)" If this happens, the duplicate question should probably be automatically migrated to the site of the original question. The original is usually a good, quality question, so it's most likely on the right site.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Jul 27, 2014 at 4:02
  • A similar proposal was here meta.stackexchange.com/questions/230105/…
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Feb 11, 2015 at 15:57
21

Posting this question on Meta.SO is an indication of why the split is good, and bad.... and it is a great example... ;-)

So, the answers here (because this is Meta.SO) are weighted heavily toward the feelings/attitudes of SO members/users. That is the way it should be. That is why the split is useful.

If this question was posted on Meta.SE, the answers would be completely different (for the most part). That is why the split is useful.

There is a third group of people though (and I mostly fall in to that situation), which is those people who mostly participate in other SE sites, not SO. For the people in Skeptics, Beer, Hebrew, RPi, and in my case, Code Review, the split means we have a 'neutral' ground to go to for 'network wide' issues, and a place where there is not a massive bias toward SO-only issues.

Problems on smaller sites are in many cases so different to problems on SO that even asking on the pre-split meta was going to get you downvoted by many. Now, on Meta SE, questions affecting smaller sites get better, and more objective consideration.

For the smaller sites, there is only positives from the split.

1
  • 2
    "the split means we have a 'neutral' ground to go to for 'network wide' issues, and a place where there is not a massive bias toward SO-only issues." fantastic to hear, over time I really began to dislike the fact that SO didn't have its "own" place for both sides of this: one place that's about SO, and one that is not about SO. Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 6:17
12

I joined right before the split, so I can't really say much in the way of comparison, but I'll give my thoughts on the current state.

Overall, I think the decision was a good one for a few reasons:

  • It just makes sense. Why have the mechanism for site-wide discussion be Stack Overflow-centric? Though SO was the first site, it certainly isn't the only one, and it makes sense to treat it the way others are treated: give it its own child meta and make the global Meta (yes, as in the Meta) its own site that pertains to the network as a whole. If we're going to have a site to talk about Stack Overflow, we might as well talk about Stack Overflow.
  • It levels the platform. I've been a member of this site for ~4 months, and, though I've been coming upon it in Google results for years, I became an active member ~3 months ago. I'll say, for one thing, that despite many arguments to the contrary, Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange network as a whole have been very welcoming to me. Since I became active on this site during the split, I was able to take part in the construction of the new MSO, which has been interesting. In fact, according to the Users page, I'm the 10th most active member here, which is quite surprising to me (but, of course, we'll never know how that is calculated). Having reputation correspond to the main site gives a better idea of the involvement a particular user has there, which can be useful. You don't have to gain privileges twice, so whatever position you're in on the main site is the same for its meta. Both of those things create a necessary coherence to the workings of any meta.
  • While some active users from Meta's past state may have been lost, it's not like they're gone. The MSO/MSE split was...a split. Nothing vanished: things just moved around.
  • It created a tighter-knit community that is an integral to any site that seeks to remain relevant. The people who actively maintain a community should be the ones who make the decisions for it regarding policy and site-specific changes, which is central to the Stack Exchange model.
  • It lowers the barrier to entry. If you use another SE site that has nothing to do with programming and you want to report a system-wide bug, seeing Stack Overflow everywhere might be a bit intimidating. Stack Overflow is a strong brand that might turn away some people who aren't familiar with its core subject matter.

Just for parity, the negatives:

  • Cross-site duplicates come up fairly often, and there's no way to mark/flag them as such.
  • There are no suggested edits on MSO.
  • There are no bounties on MSO (however, they are not as necessary here as they are on MSE, and, at least for me, bounties aren't even that effective on MSE).
  • The lines become blurred between MSO and MSE because many things that are on-topic for MSE are also on-topic for MSO.

The results seem overwhelmingly positive to me, at least, and most of the issues should work themselves out over time.

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  • 4
    RE your first/last bullets the combined meta was a major pain point for users of all the other stack exchanges, because network wide issues were utterly buried in stack overflow specific concerns. Commented Jul 25, 2014 at 20:45
9

As a new Stack Exchange user the one issue I encountered is with the split is that it hides old answers. When trying to get a better of understanding of a Help Center guideline I switched to Meta Stack Overflow and did a couple of simple searches. I found a number of questions and answers that addressed the guideline, but didn't really deal with the question I had.

I noticed that questions didn't seem to go back all that far (though there was at least one from the 2012 that had been migrated), but wasn't sure if that was because the search was limited to a certain time frame, or if there had been some sort of reorganization. As I thought the issue might be relevant to more than one site I decided to search Meta Stack Exchange as well. There I found a question that was exactly what I was searching for.

I think many users in my situation wouldn't even know there was a Meta Stack Exchange site to search. Unlike Meta Stack Overflow, it's just one site buried in a huge drop down list of over 100 other sites. It wasn't until I saw this question that I found out there had indeed been a split, and that Meta Stack Overflow was much younger than I had initially presumed.

As a new user I can't speak to whether over a the split was a good idea overall, but it does seem to have made it harder to research meta questions before asking them.

1
  • Good point. This will diminish over time, but some indication for new users would be nice. The bottom front page text Looking for more? seems the perfect place for that. Since this is only a comment that will sink down I've made this a feature request meta.stackexchange.com/questions/248422/…
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Feb 11, 2015 at 15:47
4

Was the split a good idea ?

In my view it's been a good idea.

Do you find the new system better than the old one ?

However, it seems that many people either do not know about MSE, or maybe just ignore it, e.g. due to its quite poor visibility.

For instance this question (of mine, sorry for that), had a bounty and was asked 9 days before this one (they are duplicates, though the one from SO meta should have been moved to MSE since the problem was on many sites). Views count is much bigger for the one from SO meta at this time, 488:123.

And I think that 54 from those 123 views I attracted by my comment to that SO meta question. So, even though I've tried to report a global problem, even tried to pay more attention, I've got no response from any moderator from any site, nor even sufficient view count. And that is quite odd.

Should something have been done differently ?

Attract MSE somehow (though have no idea how), so the people who wants to contribute to the overall site network development will be there rather on SO meta. And remove reputation system there as well.

2

There are cross-site dups. I have a solution!

  • Meta SE is for stuff about the whole network,
  • Child metas are about the site they are a meta for,
  • The site they are a meta for is part of SE,
  • Meta SE posts should be shown on child metas because they are relevant (in addition to the site-specific posts).

Duplicates should be able to be closed as duplicate of posts on MSE, even if the duplicate is posted as site-specific. (And MSE stuff should be searchable through child metas and displayed on the front page (weighed less so it doesn't overwhelm site-specific questions).)

My solution for reputation is:

  • All meta rep is combined
  • +5 for upvotes on questions and answers
  • +50 on status-complete/status-planned
  • +20 for accepted answer
  • -2 for downvote on a question
  • -3 for downvote on answer on a non-discussion question
  • No penalty for casting downvotes
  • Cap rep/(moving)week spent on bounties, rep gets too inaccurate when people dump 500 rep on everything
1
  • I don't care about reputation, but the search (and dupes, links, suggestions, related…) should definitely auto-include MSE (especially since there are still many old SO-specific questions lying around).
    – Bergi
    Commented Jul 29, 2014 at 19:13
-5

The two big negatives are

1) Not being able to award bounties for feature-requests, so there is no mechanism to get them more attention.

2) Poor migration from MSE, so there isn't a good mechanism to direct duplicates to tried and true questions and answers.

Personally, I'm bummed that I've got to earn badges all over again.

3
  • 1
    Did you lose any badges on MSE? (We tried very very hard to keep that from happening), or are you just letting out a bit of a sigh looking at the daunting task of earning them here as well? I'd feel pretty bad if you lost a shiny one on MSE, despite the effort to not let that happen.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 15:36
  • The 2nd @TimPost, nothing lost, just more to work on. Commented Jul 26, 2014 at 15:43
  • Well, it's a new site. We're all starting with a blank slate, as it were, on badges. I don't see that as an issue.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 28, 2014 at 20:02

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