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This is not to bash noobs. Also, not a duplicate to these other questions, although relevant.


The problem of Stack Overflow (yes, this again!)

I am certain this is known to everyone. Still, I'll reiterate. Stack Overflow receives an overwhelming amount of duplicate or very basic questions every day. This has many negative effects that can be seen in various other meta posts. In summary:

Why this is a problem

Let me borrow a diagram:

As countless meta posts indicate (many already linked), there is a huge conflict (prediction: this post will have both many upvotes and downvotes (probably more downvotes)) among Stack Overflow users regarding how the problem should be dealt with, or if this is a problem at all!

Why is this a problem again? Like it or not, a percentage of people are unhappy about the system. That percentage happens to be the advanced/experienced users. Whether they are a 4, unhappy and given up, or a 1, unhappy and trying to fix, they are unhappy.

The root of the problem

The root of the problem, hence the great divide among high-rep users and the unhappiness of many is that Stack Overflow tries to serve two conflicting purposes.

Example: I myself don't ask without prior research. An example is the following:

How to parse large amount of data passed to kernel module through /proc file?

Still, due to tiredness or what not, I also have this kind of question:

How do I set the table cell widths to minimum except last column?

Neither of which I feel I should have been banned from asking. My point is that there are two kinds of questions:

  1. Simple questions with one-line answers: They are not bad! They are very common especially if you are venturing in a new field/language. The fact that unresearched/duplicate questions fall into this category is just a sad coincidence.
  2. Hard questions that require deep knowledge and result in lengthy answers: These are the real problems whose answers cannot be found on the internet.

The questions of type 1 are many and the questions of type 2 are few. Many people complain (and ridicule the reward system) how their researched questions/answers don't get attention/upvote while their stupid typo-originating questions/answers get a lot of upvote. But the reward system is not the main issue. The problem is that questions of type 1 mask the questions of type 2.

In other words, the flux of type-1 questions is great (and is becoming greater), such that type-2 questions get lost. Since high-rep users generally have type-2 questions, Stack Overflow wouldn't be as helpful to them.

The solution

This can only end one way. There should be a way to divide type-1 and type-2 questions, the borderline of which is vague, I know:

  1. Define a set of rules (e.g. the post shall contain at least two links, one quote and one code-block) so that Stack Overflow can divide up the questions. Then users could choose to only browse type-1 or type-2 questions.
  2. Have Stack Overflow for type-1 questions where easy questions are asked and everyone who wants (including experienced people) happily answer them, just out of niceness. Have a dedicated site for type-2 questions where experienced people get to focus on their hard problems and help each other out. (It may also help to require a few thousands of rep on Stack Overflow before being able to post questions on the type-2 only site)

Let me reinstate the problem. There is conflicting expectations of Stack Overflow. A group of people want to ask easy questions and some want those questions answered. Another group of people think RTFM questions are worthless and want to see real questions. The former group is unhappy about the later being harsh on them and the later group is unhappy about the former being help vampires and rep whores.

Let's face it, help vampires and rep whores are happy together and they seem to be a big (even majority) of Stack Overflow users. So what right do we have to try to put them in line? What right do we have to force help vampires to research and rep whores not to answer their questions?

So, like I said, what makes everyone happy is a divide. If Stack Overflow implements solution 1, I'll be happy. But having seen the policies of Stack Overflow so far, I'm not at all optimistic about the reception of the idea. That leaves us with solution 2. Note that solution 2 doesn't imply moving the high-rep users elsewhere. Referring back to the diagram above, the users of Stack Overflow will be help vampires, rep whores and caretakers (just as they are now), while the users of the other site would be caretakers and apathics [sic]. Unlike what you may think, non-expert questions won't be left unanswered, since the expert users are still in Stack Overflow too.

If you pay close attention, you will see that solution 2 doesn't hurt Stack Overflow. If anything it would help it. It doesn't hurt it because the three categories of people on Stack Overflow will remain in Stack Overflow just as before. It may help it since the inactive-no-more high-rep users may actually turn back, since the expectation that all Stack Overflow questions must be great and well-researched is lifted and they wouldn't feel so bad about taking part in the system anymore. As a last word on this, I'd like to ask you to look realistically at Stack Overflow for a second. Stack Overflow currently majorly serves as a place to find answers to simple, common, beginner-intermediate questions. Taking that away would be a disservice to the world. We all need it.

How about the other more focused site? The people it would attract are:

  • experienced users, possibly currently already high-rep in Stack Overflow: these are both the active and inactive users. This helps the inactive users become interested and helpful in another site as well as being hopeful in having their problems solved. It also helps the actives, who still like to help "the noobs", have a home to have their problems solved or take on a challenge every now and then.
  • help vampires again! These should be redirected to Stack Overflow. While distinguishing type-1 and type-2 systematically could be hard, in practice it's easier. For example, if you see the question and you can answer it immediately in less than ~5 lines (excluding code and quotes), it's type-1.Furthermore, questions from help vampires are really easily distinguished from honest researched questions anyway.

In other words, the bar should be set high for this site and remain high.

Conclusion

More than half of you don't like the idea? It doesn't matter. I don't intend on taking Stack Overflow from you.

Some of you are sick and tired of the huge influx of low-quality questions? I just proposed Race Condition.


P.S. The Area 51 FAQ says:

Should my idea be part of an existing site, or its own site?

... Site X should be subsumed by site Y if:

2. If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is complaining

There are surely many people on Stack Overflow complaining about this, so I believe Race Condition doesn't qualify for subsumption by Stack Overflow.

"Stack Overflow" is a basic error happening more often to beginners. "Race Condition" is a more advanced, harder to detect issue occurring to people with at least some programming background.

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  • 1
    I'm marking this as feature-request for that 1% chance where Solution 1 is actually implemented.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:26
  • 3
    divide type-1 and type-2 questions So... separate but equal? That seems like a great idea. Then, all the people who think their questions are more important- or that they personally are better- will flock to the second site / designation. And those who self-identify as the founderingly mediocre will swarm in droves to site 1. Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:31
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    I disagree with this proposal, because Stack Overflow is supposed to be for everyone. And we shouldn't create a special site just for l33t programmers. There's a reason why we close questions that are too broad, or code dumps, etc. and that's to keep the question quality level high.
    – hichris123
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:39
  • @ParthianShot, if they think their questions are more important but their questions show no effort, they will be redirected back to Stack Overflow.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:41
  • @Shahbaz The two main problems I see with that are: (1) Yet another place people need to check for an answer to their question, which requires them to guess what category the community probably decided made the most sense, and (2) it would create yet another reason for people to flag questions for moderation, requiring more moderators, but not necessarily creating any more moderators. Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:44
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    @hichris123, I don't expect most to agree. Nevertheless, I would like to point out that even though we are all trying to improve quality by closing bad questions, the quality keeps decreasing. It's a failing plan. More importantly, it's failure to understand that people actually have problems with those basic stuff. Like I said, Stack Overflow is already divided on where to stand on this (and hence the decline in activity of the more advanced).
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:44
  • @ParthianShot, if you have a problem about bash, do you search Stack Overflow? Or do you search Super User? How about Unix & Linux? I'm pretty sure you search in google, so (1) is not an issue. About (2), maybe. Didn't think of it.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Jun 6, 2014 at 17:46
  • @Shahbaz Are you basically saying that hateful people easily gain reputation, so the +/- system is more an issue than a benefit? Because it (a) perpetuates hate-driven/'bad' questions, and (b) divides the weak and genuine at the hands of power-hungry fools/whores? If so, I totally agree. The most popular forums always have this issue: the people who rise to the top are the ones who need someone to throw them a good beating. Commented Jun 8, 2014 at 8:41
  • 2
    Allow users to optionally filter out low-quality questions is probably as close as you're going to get either solution getting approved. While I think there's some validity to this proposal, the (Meta) community and Stack Exchange seems to like proper separation about as much as a proposal to pull the trigger of a shotgun that's being held to their head. Commented Jun 9, 2014 at 16:24
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    Anyone who refers to novice programmers as noobs is not an experienced programmer. Commented Nov 26, 2014 at 20:11
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    @Qix, "noob" is slang for "newbie" and there's nothing wrong with it. Maybe once upon a time calling someone noob was insulting, but it's a well-accepted term now.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Nov 28, 2014 at 9:53
  • 1
    @Shahbaz says who? Noob is, and will always be, a derogatory term for someone who is an 'idiot' or 'inferior', stemming from the word newbie. It's colloquial and doesn't just evolve like you claim it has. Commented Nov 28, 2014 at 21:59
  • 1
    @qix, search SO for noob and bask in the number of people who willingly call themselves noobs. If it helps, I'm a noob with debian packaging. I'm afraid you need to update your dictionary.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Nov 29, 2014 at 14:02
  • @Shahbaz dictionaries don't contain colloquial terms... Commented Nov 29, 2014 at 23:09
  • A problem with this is that if you divide the 2 types, many recently popular questions will become drastically less popular. (Mostly pointing to type 1 questions.) Many questions that were asked over 3 years ago have more the 10K views. So in a way, I feel like you are criticizing them. Commented Apr 13, 2016 at 21:31

1 Answer 1

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Our goal is not to make people happy. It is to build a useful and comprehensive set of answers to programming problems.

How would the site you propose make the Internet a better place? I submit that it would not. To quote myself from a comment to this similar question:

Worse, your proposal would create a vast wasteland of questions that the true experts ignore entirely. Answers would get posted, alright, but who would verify their accuracy? Without community review, Stack Overflow would be no more useful a resource than Yahoo Answers or any number of other online forums.

There is nothing wrong with "simple" questions on Stack Overflow. There is something wrong with bad questions on Stack Overflow, and any new site you propose would have the same problems with these types of questions.

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    Our goal is not to make people happy... I certainly hope I don't end up with you as my boss.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Jun 8, 2014 at 10:10
  • 1
    Also, There is nothing wrong with "simple" questions on Stack Overflow. I agree. However, "simple" questions are not interesting to the experts. It's great to have a place to have your simple questions answered. I myself greatly appreciate it. But it eventually becomes boring to the advanced people.
    – Shahbaz
    Commented Jun 8, 2014 at 10:11
  • 13
    Unhappy people leave (i.e. stop answering questions), so really making / keeping answerers happy (enough) is part of the goal of building a useful and comprehensive set of answers to programming problems. Commented Jun 9, 2014 at 16:28
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    What makes you think some "true experts" won't be happy helping on the "noob" part? I've seen plenty of high-rep users (even 100k+ ones, and a mod or two) who are more than happy to answer the worst of questions. I think that's pretty much what this proposal is dependent on. Commented Jun 9, 2014 at 16:32
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    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your boss's goal is not to make you happy, either. It is, of course, possible that you are happy with what you do. Certainly most of us are here because we're happy. We're here because we enjoy the high quality of questions and answers that Stack Overflow strives for and prides itself on. But our sole motivation is not to make people happy, or else we'd allow all sorts of things that would ultimately compromise our core values. Ask anyone with management experience, they'll tell you the most important thing you can learn is how to say no.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 6:20
  • 2
    Simple questions can be quite interesting to experts, and quite educational for everyone else. Good answers to simple questions are great for other people, and they allow new questions that rehash the same ground to be closed as duplicates of an authoritative, definitive reference question that has already received a high quality answer. Experts don't mind answering simple questions once in a while, they just don't want a whole site full of them. Your proposal would create a site full of "simple" (or perhaps just noob) questions that no expert would ever want to look at. That's a mess.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 6:22
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    Also, @duke, note that I didn't say "our goal is to make everyone unhappy". Big difference. Of course we want to keep people who answer questions happy. The point is, Stack Overflow's sole reason for existence is not to make people happy. If it were, we'd allow people to ask whatever they wanted. Poll questions are extremely popular, as are other types of non-constructive, "discussion"-style questions. That's a common area of friction. If we just wanted to make people happy, clearly we'd allow them. The issue is that they compromise our model, which is based on values other than "happiness".
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 6:24
  • I honestly have no idea whether a low(er) quality section will work, but we need to do something big to stop the inflow of low quality questions (for the experts, that is, because a lot of them aren't happy with the way it is). Commented Jun 11, 2014 at 8:39
  • Perhaps it may be useful to introduce "simple-problem" and "complex-problem" tags?
    – daiscog
    Commented Jun 25, 2015 at 11:38
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    Downvoted for the sick "Our goal is not to make people happy" attitude.
    – KarolDepka
    Commented Oct 21, 2016 at 0:03

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