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Intro

I'm asking this question on behalf of stretchr:

Is this question a good fit for Stack Overflow. If not, is it a better fit for Server Fault? If not, can the question be improved in some way so that it becomes a good fit for either?

Here is the complete question for those users who don't have enough reputation to see deleted posts yet:

How does Discovery service work?

IT firms have an application that allows client applications to discover services that run on different ports and machines. This is called Discovery service typically.

How can I learn more about how Discovery service works?

Can someone explain it in detail? Tried finding resources online but I am afraid I may not be googling it well enough as I can't find sufficient depth in the current results. Links would also be appreciated.

Found some relevant info here on stackoverflow, but isn't really explaining much.

Background

Stretchr recently asked this question on Stack Overflow:

Which then prompted this Meta question from another user about whether or not it's on-topic for Stack Overflow:

In the Meta question, I wrote an answer that basically said that network protocol questions can sometimes be on-topic for Stack Oveflow, but that there were other issues with the question, and why it should be closed and/or downvoted.

After some back and forth on Meta, I recommended to Stretchr that the question should be (temporarily?) deleted for now, to stop the downvotes from making him/her lose so much reputation that commenting is no longer possible. Stretchr then promptly deleted the question.

Can This Question Be Saved?

I'm asking for your help. Can this question be saved so that it's a good fit for Stack Overflow or Server Fault? Stetchr will need to be a part of this discussion in order to figure that out.

Maybe the scope can be narrowed down into a specific programming problem?

Or is the question un-salvagable no matter what is done, and it should be taken to a help or recommendation forum somewhere?

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  • It is not a good fit for serverfault.
    – Zoredache
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:50
  • Can you share more details @Zoredache
    – stretchr
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:54
  • 4
    Serverfault is for practical problems not protocol design problems. This question might fit in the Network engineer site maybe. See the On-topic: Network Protocols' Design or Theory section maybe? networkengineering.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic
    – Zoredache
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:57
  • @stretchr if you're still unsure after reading the help page on Network Engineering, then I would recommend asking on their Meta before you post a question.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 4:10
  • 4
    NetworkEngineering might take it, but the question is still drawn too broadly. How DHCP works in its discovery phase is not the same as, say, Bonjour. If the OP pins down a particular protocol it might fit better, but then I'd ask 'Why not just read up on Wikipedia?'. I really doubt the question can be saved. I would recommend that the OP look at two or three protocols and focus on the common elements. That should give a good start.
    – user1864610
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 4:33
  • @stretchr did you get all of that?
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 4:38
  • @Cupcake..yes got it all. Thanks lots everyone, esp you Cupcake.
    – stretchr
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:06
  • @stretchr related, if you want to check it out: Is it okay to ask “how does * work” questions?.
    – user456814
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 5:50

5 Answers 5

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Narrow your question

You mentioned you wanted to implement a discovery protocol. You didn't mention what you want discovered? A printing service? A printer? A web service? A website? A media server? A file server? A router?

They all have different discovery protocols and some protocols overlap. Therefore a general "how do discovery protocols work?" question requires a textbook or two (or three) to answer. Which is obviously too much for a question on StackOverflow.

Tell us what you want to implement and someone may be able to answer you.

Good questions would be:

  • How does network printer autodiscovery work?

  • What is the most widely supported discovery method for media servers?

  • How do I advertise my file server with uPNP?

  • How do I advertise my file server with DNS based zeroconf?

  • How do I advertise my streaming service on my local LAN?

The key is to be specific. It's not only a more productive way to ask questions on SO but also a more productive way to learn something new.

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  • thanks @slebetman, i'm very new to discovery service, I want to learn about how a web service is discovered.
    – stretchr
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 9:57
  • I agree that the scope of the question should have been narrowed, but I don't think any of your suggestions are narrow enough, they all still seem overly broad, e.g. "How do I do X?". You're often on shaky ground when your question doesn't involve any actual code on Stack Overflow.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 2:15
  • 2
    If that is what SO has evolved into then I'd strongly encourage everyone to campaign against it. Questions without code exist because the asker doesn't know where to even start. If you don't know where to start then you can't write code.
    – slebetman
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 2:23
  • @slebetman related, if you want to check it out: Is it okay to ask “how does * work” questions?.
    – user456814
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 5:51
  • The first two examples of "good questions" fall into the networking topic, no programming involves, so they don't belong on SO. The remainder probably aren't programming-related either, but the title isn't definitive, the actual body of the question would be important.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Nov 13, 2014 at 15:38
  • The first two examples are definitely about programming because discover protocols are primarily exposed to implementers (programmers). Sysadmins never interact with them since they're "automatic" thus they don't belong as networking topic.
    – slebetman
    Commented Nov 13, 2014 at 16:03
  • I also fail to see how implementing uPNP for file servers is not a programming question. Or implementing zeroconf for file servers. Remember - those who ask how do I advertise are not sysadmins since these protocols are 99% invisible to sysadmins and network admins (all they see is a checkbox saying "enable uPNP).
    – slebetman
    Commented Nov 13, 2014 at 16:06
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I believe that this question is off-topic as it stands, but that it can be salvaged. Right now it sounds more like a question asking for an off-site resource of interest to a broad range of topics, such as distributed service architecture, rather than an answer to a question about a specific implementation of the technology. This is what I believe others are referring to as scope or the need to narrow down your question.

If the question were phrased differently and better narrowed, my opinion would probably change. I think it would be sufficiently narrow to receive well formed guidance if the question was more like this:

Could someone please explain to me how Microsoft's Windows Communication Foundation discovery service works? Specifically, I am curious about how remote clients might receive advertisements for active services and their metadata.

As you can see, my thought on what a discovery service is might be different than yours. slebetman has a good point in that you do not specify what thing you intend on discovering.

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  • Once again, I agree that the scope should be narrowed, but again, I don't think that you've narrowed the scope enough with your suggestion. I would still close a question like "How does X work?". If it was more like "I read A, B, and C things about X, but I don't understand this one thing about A, like in this situation under these conditions, can anyone elaborate on that?", then I think that kind of question is much more viable.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 2:35
  • @Cupcake I agree, more specificity would be good. Your suggestion would be ideal and the one that I provided would be on the lower end of what is acceptable. Commented May 6, 2014 at 21:33
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Personally, I think the question in general is on topic for SO, as it deals with the design/implementation of the protocol. Server Fault deals with network protocols as far as it would be concerned for an administrator. An administrator while leveraging existing protocols through the use of various hardware/software, but an admin would not be implementing a new protocol.

I disagree with the comments in the linked question regarding it not addressing a programming problem. There are plenty of great questions on SO that aren't addressing a specific problem. After all, this isn't a troubleshooting site, and in fact the extreme side of troubleshooting will result in question being closed as too localized. So that "it's not a programming problem" logic is invalid IMO. You could also view it as a problem statement of "How do I design/implement (which implies programming) such and such protocol"

That being said, I agree with those here who have said your question is too broad. It's hard to provide a canonical answer to "I am lost and need some reading material that is entry level." People who already know about the stuff probably wouldn't have on hand links to reading material that is entry level, as that stuff is second nature to them. It's somewhat of a niche question, and thus difficult to find entry level reading materials, and you're basically asking others to do the same leg work you are doing of trying different google searches. By "niche" I mean the vast majority of programmers leverage existing protocols, not create new ones.

I personally have been tempted to post a question trying to get some insight into getting started when dealing with something confusing. For example, recently trying to compile Mono, and getting into the community is quite confusing because there are some "official" sites that are now dead since Xamarin bought them up. However it'd be difficult for me to phrase a question in a way that allows someone to provide a canonical answer.

4

I think this question could be salvaged in two ways:

  1. If stretchr(depending on his/her programming experience) were to select one of the many discovery protocol tutorials that can be found on google. (found a chapter of an online book on bluetooth in 1 first result page) and were run into specific roadblocks and post them as questions. I think those questions would be appropriate for SO.

  2. If stretchr were to setup a small networking environment with specific programs or devices and had questions regarding specific errors or problems it would be appropriate for Server Fault.

As it stands its too general, but I don't think there is anything preventing stretchr from learning about Discovery Protocols and advancing the goals of the exchange at the same time.

2

The question presupposes a falsehood, that there is such a thing as a general "discovery service".

There are for example many resources that can be discovered, and generally several different, currently deployed, ways to discover each.

  • Printer discovery
    • Active Directory
    • WINS
    • NetBIOS
  • File server discovery
    • NetBIOS broadcast
    • WINS
    • DFS/DNS
  • RPC Services
    • RPC Broker
  • Sun RPC Services
    • I don't know how these are discovered...
  • Corba Services
    • ORBs

And of course for each there is always static configuration, or deployed configuration (using e.g. Group Policy or Puppet) as an option for "discovery".

Therefore asking how a "Discovery Service" works is not a well formed question for any Q&A site. Commenters should have pointed this out, and questioner would realise that if he wants to know how a discovery service works they need to identify which discovery service they are interested in as they are all different.

That done, it would be a good question for Server Fault.

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