40

As many of you know we have a lot of issues with the NAA flag in terms of its usage, and on a weekly basis we get an inordinate number of questions regarding it as opposed to questions regarding the declination of other flags.

The most frequented question on meta is the canonical When to flag an answer as not an answer? and almost all of the times a question arises with a complaint in regards to the declination of an NAA flag, a massive discussion is had and eventually the question is closed as a dupe.

So the proposal I am making is focused on trying to stop this issue before it becomes an issue; at the flag description.

The current description for the NAA flag is:

This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether.

Now from the outset as new flagger who's never come across the canonical dupe, I'd never know the pitfalls of using this flag and if I go off the flag name (which honestly, I feel is misleading) and the description then I'd think I'm correct to use the NAA flag when in reality I'm not.

So the proposed change is that we add on the declination reason for the flag to the description itself so as to teach the user about the flag before it actually gets used and inevitably declined:

This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether. The (NAA|Not an Answer) flag should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer.

I've tagged this question with both and because I believe this change should be implemented but at the same time, I'd like to know the communities thoughts on this proposal (and maybe a better proposal will be suggested).

A lot of work has gone into making new users feel "welcomed" so why not make a menial text edit to make the lives of those well-intentioned users trying to clean up the site just that much clearer / easier. It just seems like a no brainer, a win / win.

15
  • 1
    Don't flag suspensions stop this from getting too out of hand?
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 16:58
  • 6
    FWIW, relatively few NAA flags are declined - those stats haven't changed much in two years, with over 95% of all NAA flags raised still marked helpful.
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:00
  • 2
    @Makoto but the case here being that the flag itself can be improved and people who are making mistakes (not because they are purposely abusing the system) may get banned.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:01
  • 2
    I dunno. I've never seen it as that much of a problem.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:02
  • 1
    @Shog9 thanks for that, around 8K flags are declined and how many because the description is not clear or because the name is misleading? Who knows, we can't say for sure but what we do know is that if improvements are made to the existing system then hopefully there is a lesser chance that people will wrongly flag which also has the added benefit of freeing up users to moderate other things instead of erroneous NAA flags. I dunno, seems like a no brainer to me as it is just some minor text editing but adds a lot of clarity.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:07
  • 1
    I'm not against making changes, I'm just saying... There's a high bar to clear here: it'll take a lot to move the needle. Flagging altogether wrong answers as "VLQ" or "Other" might improve the NAA stats, but... folks would still get their flags declined. There are other options here that might do more
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:16
  • 1
    I'm fine with adding wording like this, but I don't think it would impact the Meta complaints that we receive. The flags declines that end up getting complained about here usually aren't for cases where the flagger knew it was an answer but thought it was incorrect, they're usually for disagreements over what constitutes an answer. I'd say we get as many custom flags stating things like "this answer is wrong and shouldn't be accepted / should be removed" as we do "not an answer" flags for incorrect answers. The solution Shog9 links above might be a better approach to handle this overall.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:22
  • OK, fair enough, so has the feature request that Shog9 linked been discussed at all internally? Is there anything along the way? Considering it was asked it 2013 and AFAIK, nothing has been done, it might be easier to just change the text.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:25
  • 7
    Multiply the odds for not finding a good flag for "this answer is not good enough to belong here" by the number of users that don't like to lose a point of rep by the odds of them disliking being "declined" in their effort to improve the site and you can still get a pretty substantial number of them that want to speak up about it. No big deal, meta is a pretty good place to blow off some steam. Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 17:26
  • 5
    @Shog9 Is that 95% of all NAA flags? Or of those which are handled by a moderator? I ask because it's not uncommon for bad or totally incorrect (but still an answer) answers to be deleted by the queues - whilst they'd be declined by a moderator.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 22:49
  • 3
    That's all NAA flags, @Rob
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 0:48
  • 6
    The answer to this question is here meta.stackoverflow.com/a/286270/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:32
  • 8
    LOL! We've been trying to get something about the nonsense around this flag done for like 5 years. The answer is no, nothing is going to happen. SO cares even less about active/veteran/curator users than ever.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 10:22
  • @Shog9 Would we be able to get the percentage of declined NAA/VLQ flags which were handled by mods?
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 23:55
  • yeah; post a separate question, @Rob
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 0:02

6 Answers 6

21

I totally agree.

flags should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer.

Is one of the most common decline reasons for a NAA flag. It makes perfect sense to put it in the flag reason, given there is confusion about the flag.

13
  • 5
    I'll note that a large portion of people casting these flags know that, they just disagree with the assertion that NAA shouldn't be used that way. It's not necessarily a reason to not add this, but I've seen more people who didn't care than NAA shouldn't be used for technical inaccuracies than people who just didn't know that NAA shouldn't be used for technical inaccuracies. Part of this stems from the fact that people who just don't know cast one flag, get corrected, then stop, people who don't care just keep on flaggin', so they may account for more flags, even if it's less users.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:24
  • @Servy possibly true for some people. I do think a lot of people are confused about the flag.
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:26
  • So speaking anecdotally, I flagged 3-4 answers as NAA and came to meta for around 3 of them until I confidently understood the usage of NAA. Since then, I don't believe I've had an NAA declined. I wasn't intentionally being awkward, I was just blissfully ignorant and in some cases I just didn't understand how an answer was an answer in literal terms.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:28
  • @Script47 is that comment to me or Servy?
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:30
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb a generic comment as I noticed that this is the second time someones made the claim that people are generally maliciously making these wrong NAA flags. I've always thought it was the opposite based on my experiences.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:31
  • 1
    @Script47 I'd like to see the evidence that people do it intentionally. I don't have any at this point. So it's not something we can say people do deliberately for certain. I'm more inclined to think that there's unclear usage surrounding NAA and low quality flags. In fact for using flags altogether.
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:35
  • @YvetteColomb you and me both.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 4, 2018 at 21:51
  • 1
    must...resist...flagging...this...answer...as...NAA... Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:55
  • @YvetteColomb Does this count as evidence?
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 19:01
  • 1
    @RobertColumbia let the power of the flags flow within you voice of emperor palpatine
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 19:43
  • @Servy I'm not sure how. Are you sure you used the right link?
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 19:46
  • @YvetteColomb Someone saying that someone trying to answer the question, but who failed to find an answer that you consider a good answer based on its technical merits is Not An Answer? Looks like the right link to me.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 19:51
  • 1
    @Servy come on! That text was suggested by Shog to solve a very specific issue "stop using the word "answer" to refer to both the post itself and the action of addressing the asker's problem". Do you even follow links? BTW, the title of this question is "Can we have the NAA flag description changed?" I suggest said change.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 20:00
10

Improving the flag description is good, but the suggested wording is a negative command so it isn't ultimately as helpful as it could be because the user doesn't know what to do instead (many will opt to use a different or custom flag). Instead, the wording should provide positive guidance:

This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether. For technical inaccuracies or an altogether wrong answer, use voting and do not flag.

That sentence doesn't particularly need to be inside the NAA description, it could stand alone in the flagging dialog.

2
9

One of the biggest issues I see with NAA flag disputes is when there's physically an answer, but it has nothing to do with the question. If you answer "how to add two integers in c++" with "using std::numeric_limits you can find the max value of an integer" it isn't any more of an answer than "Use a mop to clean the floor". These are total non sequiturs that have no business being on the site.

A whole heck of the amount of times I've seen NAA fights come up in meta, its because of issues like this. And people moan that since the flag description states:

" but it does not attempt to answer the question "

this garbage should stay. There are no other answer flags that are relevant to this situation. This logic is wrong anyway (if you are attempting to answer a different question, then you aren't attempting to answer the one posted, or the one the question poster actually has).

While its possible this suggestion will solve some issues, I believe the most heated meta fights happen when the pedants come to fight people who recognize trash and want to get rid of it. We need to make it clear that you must be attempting to answer the actual question posted, and not some random topic you decided to come up with on your own.

3
  • 2
    I'd have to agree with you, that has thrown me off too and if you look at questions I've asked I've argued about this case specifically.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 17:55
  • 1
    Closely related: Using NAA on jokes that make no attempt to answer the question See especially the comments on the question itself.
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:09
  • 2
    @JoshCaswell I would say that this answer covers all those points succinctly.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:33
7

What if, instead of "does not attempt to answer the question" followed by a general explanation of what that might mean, the flag text corresponded closely to the delete reasons in the review queue? Something like:

This was posted as an answer, but it is either a comment ("thank you", "I'm having this problem too", or commentary on another post), a different question posted as an answer, or a link-only answer (not spam).

The phrasing could be improved, but mainly my point is that some of the debates/arguments over declined NAA flags might be avoided if the flag indicated exactly the specific types of answers on which the flag should not be declined.

0

Given that the standard guidance we get from staff and mods is that we're not supposed to use NAA on answers that, when read out of context, could theoretically be the answer to some question, it seems to me that your rewrite still makes it look reasonable to use the flag for purposes that are actually against the rules.

I'd propose going even further, and changing the wording to this (my changes bolded):

This was posted as an answer, but it is clearly not an attempt to answer this or any other question. It should be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether. The (NAA|Not an Answer) flag should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong or irrelevant answer.

Besides the bolded changes, note also that I dropped the "possibly' in the sentence starting "It should be". Our official marching orders are that by raising this flag we are stating the post is total irredeemable garbage that could not possibly be relevant even as a partial answer to any imaginable programming question, anywhere. Given that, the description of the flag should not be using qualifiers like "possibly".

While we're at it, we should also entirely eliminate the ability to flag answers as "Very Low Quality", since the effect of doing so is identical to flagging as NAA and the flags are judged according to the same rules.

17
  • The first and last part of your proposal contradict each other, no? '[...] but it is clearly not an attempt to answer this or any other question. It should be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether.' and then you say: 'The (NAA|Not an Answer) flag should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong or irrelevant answer.' So by definition if an answer doesn't answer this or any other question it is irrelevant yet further on you say NAA should not be used for irrelevant answers.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:42
  • "Given that the standard guidance we get from staff" [citation needed!] Shog says to remove oranges.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:45
  • @Braiam then the question arises, what the heck is an orange? How do we class what an orange is? I've come across some oranges in my time but I've been told that they aren't NAA worthy.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:46
  • 2
    @Script47 If you ask for apples and you get anything but apples, that is oranges. For example, this is clearly an orange. "but I've been told that they aren't NAA worthy." by who? I bet by the same people that think that anything posted on the answer box qualifies as an answer.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:48
  • 1
    @Braiam I would absolutely agree with you there but I don't believe that is the actual case and yes, but individuals on meta who have said an an answer is answer irrespective whether it is in the wrong language / answering something else completely.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:49
  • @Script47 Hmm. By "irrelevant answer' I mean something like posting a quote from a Haskell tutorial in response to a question about embedded C, where the answer could conceivably be an answer to some question but not to the one that was asked. I don't mean the final sentence to mean "if the answer is irrelevant, it cannot be flagged, even if it meets the criteria outlined earlier", in much the same way that the existing "altogether wrong" clause doesn't mean that; if I post "Donald Trump is an eight-legged rhinoceros made of energy" that's "altogether wrong" but still NAA.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:49
  • 2
    @Script47 "but I don't believe that is the actual case." only on Stack Overflow. As I said on another comment, other sites doesn't have such a problem with NAA flags. Moderators will remove answers that doesn't fit in the context of the question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:50
  • @MarkAmery that makes more sense, maybe we should introduce the off-topic flag for answers too for those answers that are answering something completely different and use NAA for answers that are comments, requests / asking questions?
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 11:52
  • 1
    @Braiam By the way, here's your citation: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/341596/…. "NAA flags are meant for blatantly obvious situations, where users have asked followup questions, just posted a thank you, or otherwise. Stuff that a reasonable person could just look at with no other context and immediately hit the delete button. If the moderator needs to look further into the flag than that, you probably need to use a custom flag"
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:00
  • @MarkAmery animuson is stating the behavior of the moderators, not that he suggests that to be the actual behavior. Said behavior hinges on the assumption that moderators wont look at the context. Shog, which sets out the NAA standard, says "[...] we're not here for things that bear superficial resemblances to answers, for whatever words someone cares to type into the form. We're here for answers. They won't always be correct, but they'll damn well be recognizable as an honest attempt to answer the damn question and not just share your train of thought with the world."
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:08
  • 1
    Also, said context isn't actively hidden from the moderators. It's just a click away SO moderators, by choice are willing to forgo context when it is available, and are the only ones in the network that do so.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:09
  • @MarkAmery meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/377539/…
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:24
  • @Braiam flags should not be used to indicate an inaccurate or altogether wrong answer. Use downvotes and delete votes instead.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 16:49
  • @TinyGiant that, as everything, can be changed.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 17:18
  • 2
    @Braiam no it is the way it is for a reason. That reason is that evaluating whether an answer is inaccurate or altogether wrong requires domain knowledge, which cannot be expected of moderators. Unless you're suggesting the change be that we mandate there must be a moderator for every single topic domain that could possible be represented on Stack Overflow.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 18:36
-7

I re-suggest this text instead

This was posted as an answer, but it does not address the problem being asked about. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether.

That will make everyone happy.

8
  • 3
    If i'm understanding correctly, the OP is trying to address the fact that people are using this flag against technically inaccurate answers. They're valid answer attempts, but they're wrong -- so this wording wouldn't help at all in the target scenario. It is an attempt to address the problem. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:51
  • 1
    It would also open the can of worms where the user fundamentally misunderstood the question -- possibly due to poor english skills of the asker. I have fallen victim to this problem myself; I left the answer as-is because i did outline what i thought the question was asking (a valid interpretation of the non-grammatical English, in my opinion) and the answer to that interpretation of the question. It turned out to not be what s/he was asking at all, but it seemed clear enough to not merit an 'unclear what you're asking' close vote at the time. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:53
  • 2
    @RoddyoftheFrozenPeas no, most of the biggest discussions is between "but this is an answer" vs "it isn't even a wrong answer". Which, btw, you fall for in your first argument. The other side isn't arguing whenever or not is an answer, is whenever or not it even read the question asked. See this answer for more information.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:54
  • 1
    I dunno, but the proposed addition of "The (NAA|Not an Answer) flag should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer" seems kind of clear to not support your understanding of the discussion in this question. Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 18:58
  • 2
    @RoddyoftheFrozenPeas because that's based on a misunderstanding of the OP. opa's answer is what they are flagging for. Read that answer, then this answer. "One of the biggest issues I see with NAA flag disputes is when there's physically an answer, but it has nothing to do with the question."
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 19:02
  • And yet, my second point still stands with regards to opa's answer and your addendum. If my answer addresses my understanding of your problem, but your english was so bad that you actually meant something else, is it not still a valid answer? Yet it does not address "the problem being asked about". (I use "you" in that sentence generically, not at you specifically, of course.) Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 20:03
  • @RoddyoftheFrozenPeas in that case, another flag applies: very low quality. We, sadly, don't have a flag for crap.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 5, 2018 at 20:11
  • @Braiam meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/377539/…
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:24

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .