25

This is a continuation of this question however, the proposal is slightly different:

(Edit: as pointed out by @Braiam the off-topic description in the image is too exclusive due to the mention of programming, so the actual suggested text has been amended below, I'm open to any and all suggestions)

My proposal aims to please people on either side of the fence, meaning:

  • Those people who want to flag irrelevant answers as NAA because they aren't actually answering the question (answer is using different language than original question or is just completely off topic).
  • Those people who argue that if you look at it literally, it is answering the question by the mere fact that it is an answer and not a question, comment, or follow up.

With the addition of the off topic flag, we should amend the description of the NAA flag to become:

This was posted as an answer however it should possibly be an edit, comment, another question or deleted altogether.

and have the off topic flag's description to be:

This was posted as an answer but does not address the original question.

Obviously, the descriptions can be amended to be worded better, hence this has been tagged as a too.

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  • 16
    This is the first time I like a proposal about the infamous NAA problem. This could evolve in something really good for all of us. Separating "it's not an answer at all" from "it's not an answer to this question" might solve the ever going issue about this flag.
    – Eric Aya
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:27
  • 7
    I support this idea, it would also be good to have a separate queue for this that can be easily filtered by tags, because assessing this really requires knowledge of the involved technologies.
    – Erik A
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:44
  • 11
    I'd be very cautious about how such a flag is presented to users. We don't want answers being flagged for deletion just for missing a point in the question (either a subtle or an obvious/explicit one) when they are otherwise clearly attempting to address the question to at least some degree. Ideally, I'd reserve this flag for answers that appear to have been posted under the wrong question altogether by mistake, or are otherwise so far detached from the question that it's impossible to relate the answer to the question, not even by programming language, concept, or problem being solved.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 13:28
  • 2
    @BoltClock Why don't we want answers to be deleted if they miss an obvious point of the question and don't really answer it? Those seem like noise to me, that's what I'd like about it. Deleting noise/not NAA but also not really an answer answers is near impossible currently, I'd like that to change.
    – Erik A
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 14:55
  • 12
    @Erik von Asmuth: Partial answers to the question are still answers and whether they are noise depends entirely on the voter. If the missing portions are so critical that whatever is there is not useful, that's a reason to downvote, not delete.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:21
  • 4
    @BoltClock hold on, the whole premise of SO is to collate quality Q&A, if an answer is partial / irrelevant, is it really useful? Does it really fit into the sort of quality we want to keep around? Down-votes should be used to identify bad answers, not partial answers or irrelevant answers for that matter. As a side point, your opinion on this matter makes me seem that you are part of the second group of people that I described and I was hoping that this would appeal to you too.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:23
  • 6
    @Script47: A partial answer, as its name suggests, isn't totally irrelevant. (Neither are wrong answers for that matter.) Whether such an answer is useful is subjective, because whatever is there, if it addresses the question, may be adequate for one reader (who may upvote) and not useful to another (who may downvote). But the answer is still on-topic, and therefore isn't breaking any rules by existing. Contrast that with an answer that appears to be a complete non-sequitur, the kind of answer that makes you wonder what could have gone through the author's mind to have posted it.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:27
  • 5
    @Script47: A very common example: question asks why their code behaves a certain way, and how they can achieve their goal. (Often these two go hand-in-hand, if the question isn't simply asking for the latter.) An answer may choose to address either point, but not both, and while neither answer may be adequate for the asker (at least), neither of them are completely off-topic either since they both clearly attempt to answer the question, even if only partially.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:30
  • 1
    @BoltClock yes, I agree with you that in your scenario I wouldn't personally flag the answer either. I pictured partial, in my head, to be more of a comment than an answer.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:31
  • 8
    @BoltClock A large part of the problem for me are these 30-answer threads that people tend to pile their doesn't-address-the-question-but-same-topic answers because they were struggling with the topic and glad they figured something out. Usually, they're an adaptation of an existing answer but instead of providing a general solution they solve a localized different problem no-one asked about, the author just stumbled upon the topic, copy-pasted an answer, didn't work because didn't copy-paste in the right spot, ruins the code a bit to make it work, ta-dah new answer.
    – Erik A
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:32
  • 3
    @Erik von Asmuth: Those aren't the types of answers this proposal was designed for. There are a number of ways to describe those answers, including my go-to "late answer that adds no value to existing answers". But the one thing those answers usually have in common is that they aren't complete non-sequiturs to the question. And that's why I say they aren't what this is designed for.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:34
  • 5
    Flagging the answer for something like this isn't useful. Mods aren't there to discern the usefulness of an answer... that's what votes are for.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 17:17
  • 2
    Right, but, flagging has a very specific purpose. Either it puts the flagged thing in a queue for mods to look at, or it puts it in a queue for the community to look at. Mods aren't the right people to look at this kind of thing, it's more of a community thing because in many cases, it will require domain knowledge to know that the answer is in fact for another question entirely. The only reason we would need a review queue for this would be if it was such a rampant problem that we actually needed to draw more eyes to it.... I don't think it happens problematically near often enough for that.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 17:38
  • 4
    such answers are precisely why we have the ability to downvote.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 17:39
  • 2
    This would be fine if we want to just have such flags automatically cast a downvote as the user and not send anything to anyone else, given that that's a reason for downvoting an answer and not reason for any further moderation action. Having "honeypot" flag reasons has been suggested before. They have downsides, but I'm personally curious to try them out and see how people react to them.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 18:09

6 Answers 6

42

To get to the US Capitol Building from the Pentagon, enter the Pentagon station of the Washington Metro (subway) which is just outside the main entrance. Get on a Blue Line train to Largo Town Center. Ride the train until it reaches Federal Center SW, then get off. Walk north on 3rd St SW until you get to Independence Ave SW. Walk east until you reach the US Capitol building, which will be on your left.

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    @BSMP It is in fact an answer, mods aren't expected to critique the usefulness or accuracy of said answer
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 17:16
  • 9
    @BSMP it absolutely is an answer and it would get down-voted to oblivion but it the NAA flag would get declined which is what this off-topic flag I'm pushing for would solve.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 17:21
  • 3
    @BSMP If it's clear to you that someone is intentionally trolling people by posting answers that they know full well aren't trying to answer the question, but that look vaguely like answers, then that's a good case for a custom mod flag. That's effectively someone being abusive (although the stock flag isn't good for that either, as it's too subtle and would require further explanation). You'd want to include in such a flag why you think they honestly don't think it's an answer, rather than simply being a misunderstanding of the question. It being a pattern is good evidence of this.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 18:32
  • 6
    @BSMP It also doesn't need to use a stock flag (or be a new one) because it's simply super rare. It's common for people answering in good faith to misunderstand the question. It's not common for people to post "fake" answers just to troll people. Custom flags exist for very rare problems that just don't merit a stock flag reason.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 18:34
  • 11
    This is wrong. 3rd street doesn't allow pedestrian traffic, you have to go over to 4th street. (source)
    – Davy M
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 19:34
  • 19
    @DavyM if you feel it is wrong, you can downvote it. That's what downvotes are for. Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 19:39
  • 11
    @TylerH I would absolutely disagree. This paints my picture perfectly (albeit in a hyperbolic way) and it is very effective in portraying the problem right now thus making it extremely constructive.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:04
  • 19
    This answer is illustrating the type of answer that falls through the flag cracks and serves a good purpose.
    – user3956566
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 23:00
  • 3
    “Not An Answer” to this question. Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 1:06
  • 2
    I have no doubt that, if this answer was posted to a question on Stack Overflow and was flagged as NaA, any moderator reviewing the flag would delete it. Whereas that is not the case with the original linked answer. So a more accurate statement would have been "This answer is an attempt at illustrating the type of answer that falls through the flag cracks and serves a good purpose, albeit hyperbolic and not representative of actual answers that may occur."
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 1:27
  • 6
    Flagging as off-topic: I wanted directions to the Kennedy Centre, not the Capitol Building.
    – cs95
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 4:32
  • 10
    It's always fun watching others attempt to divine and deconstruct the meaning of illustrative/self-demonstrating/meta answers such as this on meta.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 9:25
  • 5
    @Script47 this is exactly the problem. This is supposed to be what NAA is for - it makes no attempt to answer the question. People don't read the NAA description and think as long as you attempt to answer a question then that's somehow fine.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 11:57
  • 3
    @OrangeDog This is not an NAA according to the official interpretation. My interpretation is, we must assume that each answer is a result of the "best effort" on the part of the author, this is how the author of the answer understood the question and this is honestly the best that they can offer, if you disagree you downvote, but it's still an answer.
    – artem
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 5:23
  • 4
    @user202729 Just because you think that they understood the answer and you are the one that understands it doesn't mean you're correct. It's just as possible that you misunderstood the answer and they were the one to interpret it correctly. That's why rather than having moderators judge answers on their technical merits, you let the community vote, so readers can incorporate what others think while still being able to evaluate all of the answers posted by people trying to answer the question.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 10, 2018 at 14:30
7

I've been active on the site for a year and a half, and I've seen my fair share of questions (and answers). Most of the situations I've needed to flag an answer that wasn't a NAA answer, it was either to report spam, or an abusive user. I don't think I've come across a situation where neither the spam, the rude/abusive, nor the custom flag was not appropriate.

Can you think of some situations where this flag would come of use? What would the protocol be for handling them? Should flagged answers be sent to one of the review queues? Or should moderators handle it? I've seen quite a bit and I understand different people have different definitions of what an "off-topic" question (or answer) is. Can we guarantee that the wordage describing the flag is clearly interpretable enough to prevent people from accidentally abusing it?

I don't think this flag should become a reality unless we can answer all the questions above with 100% certainty.

5

I cautiously support the idea.

My biggest concern is that these flags should be directed to those who know the topic well. Perhaps, we should only allow reviewers who have subject knowledge of the tag the ability to review these flags.

I think we could put this on a trial run and allow users with silver or gold badges in the respective tags to review these. It can require 4 recommend deletion and/or delete votes to fall in line with LQP - but with gold badge holders votes counting as two.

I am sure someone will come back with the question:

"What happens if the answer is in a low traffic tag???"

The answer is simple: nothing. The answer will just do what every other answer has done to date, remain on the question and the flag will just expire.


If this is implemented, the queue shouldn't suffer from the same issues as it always has, which would be vague recommendations as how to handle the post. Triage for the longest time had recommendations that placed a lot more questions into the "Requires Editing" category then there should have been.

There need to be clear cut instructions that:

  • Partial answer should not be deleted
  • Somewhat incorrect answers should not be deleted
  • Only delete answers that are blatantly wrong and add zero value to the question.

If 80% of the answer is wrong - it needs to be downvoted, not removed.

1
  • "My biggest concern is that these flags should be directed to those who know the topic well" which is easy to do. Just recourse yourself from them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 12:53
-2

This new type of flag isn't needed. Just use the VLQ flag on a completely ridiculous answer attempt. This puts the answer in the Low Quality Posts review queue, which is filterable by tag. Here's the description for the flag (emphasis mine):

This answer has severe formatting or content problems. This answer is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed.

Image of the flag dialog:

Flag answer dialog

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    VLQ on answers is treated as equivalent in meaning to NAA by the mods and is also reviewed without context, so isn't appropriate for Script47's intended use-case of an answer that could conceivably be relevant to some question but not to the one it was posted on.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:11
  • 7
    I dont think that an "off-topic" answer qualifies as "obvious, unarguable garbage".
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:13
  • @MarkAmery the VLQ review queue includes the answer's question for context.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:25
  • @TinyGiant not even within the context of the question it's supposed to be answering? On this meta discussion, the answer above (if it weren't satirical) would indeed be obvious garbage since it doesn't contribute to the meta question being asked about a new flag.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:27
  • @ryanyuyuRyan it's not obvious if it requires domain knowledge. The above answer would qualify because it isn't an answer to a question conceivably asked on Stack Overflow. If it looks like an answer to a programming question, then it requires domain knowledge to verify topicality, and that fails the obvious test.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:29
  • @TinyGiant sure, but that's what tag filters and skips are for. Which is pretty much what the proposed new flag would have to rely on.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:30
  • @ryanyuyuRyan but it still fails to qualify as "obvious, unarguable garbage" meaning the VLQ flag does not apply.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:31
  • 1
    As I said in a comment on the question, the only way I would support the proposed new flag would be if the outcome was simply the application of a downvote on the flaggers behalf and nothing more.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:33
  • @ryanyuyu "the VLQ review queue includes the answer's question for context" - but that's only relevant if your flag gets handled in the VLQ queue. If I remember rightly (I'm afraid I can't find a source and might be wildly wrong), that's only about 40% of such flags, with the rest being handled by the mods, with no context surrounding the answer by default (but with the option to open up the question page in a new tab).
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:35
  • @MarkAmery if that's true, then yes the VLQ workflow would not be sufficient for the proposal.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:37
  • @TinyGiant I personally think the minimal amount of domain knowledge required in those cases to satisfy the proposed "Those people who want to flag irrelevant answers as NAA because they aren't actually answering the question (answer is using different language than original question or is just completely off topic)" qualifies as obvious.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:40
  • @ryanyuyu I disagree. If any amount of domain knowledge is required then it is impossible for it to be obvious. Otherwise a javascript answer to an html question that didnt include the javascript tag would qualify for deletion, and that would be just plain bad.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:52
  • 4
    Everything looks obvious when you have domain knowledge.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:55
  • 3
    The "content problems" alluded to by VLQ refer to incoherent content or content that is so heavily marred by formatting problems as to be incomprehensible. They don't cover all content problems.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 7, 2018 at 9:22
  • 1
    This is not what VLQ is for. Being off-topic does not necessarily mean it has "severe formatting or content problems".
    – Picachieu
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 3:56
-6

I disagree with this proposal because the wording of the NAA flag already suggests that it's appropriate to use it for this purpose:

This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether.

(Bolding mine.)

If we want to allow flagging answers for deletion because they're irrelevant to the specific question that was asked, the mods should just start acting on NAA flags on such answers. The problem is that at the moment we have a NAA flag description that unambiguously says that it's appropriate to use NAA flags for answers that don't attempt to answer THE question that was asked (which is precisely what you want your new flag to cover), but guidance from staff that actually we should act like the NAA flag means something significantly different to what it says. Adding another flag that looks to a new reader like it's strictly a subset of NAA doesn't fix this situation; we first need to bring the NAA description and the completely contradictory official interpretation of it into alignment with each other.

14
  • 7
    The fact that the description of NAA includes this, but we can't use it for it, is a reason we should have a separate flag for it imo, not a reason we shouldn't. Also, assessing if a answer is on-topic for that question requires domain knowledge and the LQP doesn't have filters.
    – Erik A
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:47
  • 3
    I appreciate your sentiments and what you are saying, however, it just is not the case. I've flagged an answer which was in a complete different language to the original question and it has been decline and I was told that it is an answer. At least this way there would be no confusion going into the queue at to why someone as flagged it (as we have broken NAA down).
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:48
  • @ErikvonAsmuth I would have no objection, I guess, to changing the NAA description to not cover this case any more and adding the new flag (although I don't see the point; why not just agree to change the mods' interpretation of NAA to match what the description says, which explicitly includes this case?). But adding in a new flag such that both it and NAA appear to cover this case, and requiring the arcane knowledge that the new flag really can be used for this purpose but that the NAA flag that seems to cover the same thing really has a false description, seems perverse.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:49
  • 5
    @MarkAmery The question does suggest that the NAA flag description should be amended.
    – user202729
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:50
  • @user202729 D'oh, you're right - I didn't read fully. I think the proposed amended wording can still be reasonably interpreted to cover this case, though, so much of my objection still stands.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:52
  • 9
    @Script47 Right - your flag was perfectly correct according to the current NAA description and yet incorrect per the interpretation that the mods actually use, which flatly contradicts the description of the flag. My point is that, if the staff are going to have to change the rules around flagging and the guidance given to mods anyway, they might as well just tell the mods to start interpreting NAA to cover the kind of question you're asking about, which its current description clearly says that it does. Changing the flagging dialog itself isn't necessary and adds no additional value.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 12:53
  • 1
    @MarkAmery hmmm, let me think your response over and come with a counter response (not that there is a guarantee that there will be a response) but I do see what you mean. I would honestly suggest that you put that comment as part of your answer, it clarifies your stance much more.
    – Script47
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 15:35
  • 2
    @MarkAmery The flag description says that a post is NAA if it's not an attempt to answer the question, not when it fails to answer the question. An attempt to answer the question that you think is not actually answering the question is still an answer. Downvote it if you think they misinterpreted the question or didn't provide a correct or complete answer.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 21:45
  • 1
    @Servy Writing a load of technical prose about a totally unrelated topic, which as far as I understand it is what Script47 wants their new reason to cover, isn't "an attempt to answer the question", though. It's either outright abuse, or, at best, a case of someone accidentally putting their answer on the wrong question due to a copy-and-paste error. In the case where someone has genuinely "misinterpreted" the question, their answer would (as I interpret this proposal) still "address" the question and so Script47's proposed new reason wouldn't apply either; as such, it's irrelevant here.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 21:52
  • @Servy Hmm. Although rereading I see that Script47 initially included the case of writing an answer in a different language to that which was asked for as an example of an "off-topic" answer. That seems kind of inconsistent with the question also saying that this is aimed at "irrelevant" answers, since an answer in a different language is still at least relevant. Meh; I'm too confused about the intent of the original proposal now to be sure whether my objections to it stand up.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 21:56
  • @MarkAmery Yes, someone going around intentionally posting unrelated content just to troll people is abuse, as I mention here. But it's not NAA. Use a custom flag when you see abuse like that. And it's also super rare. Default flag reasons are for things that happen thousands of times a day, not once every few weeks.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:08
  • 3
    @Servy It's not NAA as the mods interpret NAA, but it clearly meets the written description of the flag, which was the point of this answer. If you're happy to not have a canned flag reason to cover wildly unrelated answers at all, that's fine by me; my objection is to adding a new reason that is entirely to cover that "super rare" situation when we already have a reason whose wording purports to cover it, but collectively choose to pretend that it doesn't. We can ignore that "super rare" situation or we can start interpreting NAA to include it, but it makes no sense to add a new reason.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:15
  • You can make an argument that such an answer is technically not an answer, but that the NAA flag shouldn't be used because the flag requires additional explanation from the flagger, in the same way that some spam should have a custom flag instead of the spam flag when you need to explain why it's a subtle or tricky spam instead of obvious spam, even though it's still technically spam.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:18
  • @Servy You certainly can. I think we are violently agreeing again.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 6, 2018 at 22:20
-9

I am not sure that I understand the issue you want to solve.

IMHO, regular SO users do not have difficulties with flags on theirs answers, just because there is message that advice how to improve it. Regular SO users have difficulties asking questions - but this is a different story.

So I guess you are trying to help "new reviewers", you want to make 'not an answer' more intuitive for them.

And when I agree that SO 'not an answer' is not intuitive, more complex menu would just mystify "new reviewers" additionally. Goal is not achieved.

Whole menu should be "remastered" if there is a goal to achieve better UX.

2
  • 3
    The OP is trying to delete off-topic answers, nothing related to your answer.
    – user202729
    Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 16:46
  • who is OP? why he is trying? all offtopics or not? And again what real problem additional "offtopic" menu item should solve? Commented Dec 8, 2018 at 16:55

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