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Please read this older answer by a SO moderator about another question, a widely visited community wiki.

This post is regarding this question (image here)

This question was recently deleted (edit: currently it is locked due to the dispute) after being locked. I consider that questions should only be deleted (by someone that is not the owner) if they are completely inappropriate for the site, and they are useless.

In my opinion, this question should only be closed, not deleted. Downvoting and closing are already two very effective mechanisms that serve as a triage for good or bad questions. I understand that to delete a question the thing has to be blatant.

Even though in this case it is arguable whether the question is off-topic or not (on the one side, 'pros and cons' questions generally tend to be bad quality, but on the other hand, it is referring to a very specific issue of programming), there are several reasons why I consider that it should not be deleted:

  1. The content of some of the answers is valuable and concise. It is useful for other people having the same question (which is a typical, specific dilemma in programming).

  2. Users answering have invested time and effort providing a summarised, concise recollection of reasons supporting the features of each architectural option, raising interesting points that have research and reproducible examples.

  3. Other users have engaged and helped with their comments polish the content of the answers.

  4. Bad answers can be deleted or down-voted, and the question can be locked and put a notice mentioning the position of SO on whether it is recommendable to follow this post as an example for asking.

In summary, even if closing it prevents bad content from appearing, deleting it disables people from accessing good content (I am not boasting about my answer being great, I am generalizing). I think that deleting knowledge is never good. I believe that this step has to be taken after weighing whether it would do significantly more good than harm.

(Disclosure: besides from the reputation loss, which I confess I do not fancy, this is not the point I am trying to make).

I would like to receive an explanation on why despite all my points the question should be deleted. Honestly I don't understand how it can be good deleting it, I am certainly unhappy with it but I am not trying to complain. I don't expect a "because SO rules say so", but rather a "why SO rules say so".

Edit: the flag for the question being closed is:

Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise.

The premise is the answers will be opinionated rather than based on facts and references, but in this case it does not hold to a considerable part of the content.

I consider appropriate enough this notice that is put when questions are locked:

This question exists because it has historical significance, but it is not considered a good, on-topic question for this site, so please do not use it as evidence that you can ask similar questions here. This question and its answers are frozen and cannot be changed. More info: help center.

You can have several examples; one might be this. As a user mentioned in the comments, if the answers are good, I would not consider the post as a whole to be noise.

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    It's admittedly a terrible, overly broad question, one asking for opinion, and looks to have been appropriately closed. I wasn't involved in closing it, but I surely would have avoided answering it. Commented Oct 7, 2018 at 20:09
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    Yeah, and I agree with it being closed, but I don't see the point in deleting it. @HovercraftFullOfEels
    – user4396006
    Commented Oct 7, 2018 at 20:10
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    Off topic questions should be deleted, and so I do very much see the point as it helps improve the signal-to-noise ratio of the site. Commented Oct 7, 2018 at 20:11
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    @J.C.Rocamonde: I don't argue that your answer was good, but someone could write a terribly helpful and informative answer about automobile repair, but since it is off-topic, no matter how good it is, it is at risk of being closed/deleted. Commented Oct 7, 2018 at 20:30
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    @HovercraftFullOfEels According to the timeline, no mod was involved, just 3 users.
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 7, 2018 at 21:06
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    Also, just a point of note: "there are many other SO posts that happen to be in the same circumstance" Examples of off-topic questions that are not handled appropriately is not a valid excuse for new off-topic questions to not be handled appropriately; there are millions of questions and only around one or two hundred users who actively moderate the site... the reason an off-topic question is not closed or a delete-worthy question is not deleted is always: "because it hasn't been seen yet by [enough] moderating users".
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 4:20
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    this is going to be a del/undel vote war... 2 delvotes again so far. Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 12:58
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    In regards to your latest edit: It is an old answer about a (now very) outdated pile of garbage of an answer... It's not a very convincing stance to suggest that shouldn't be deleted.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 15:06
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    And that question is still off-topic...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 15:11
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    @J.C.Rocamonde Actually, no, it's not really clear what you are asking. There is, quite literally, no question statement at all in your post. The question was deleted because it was off-topic and downvoted. You seem to have some misunderstanding about question deletion, such as "As far as I know, questions can only be deleted (by someone that is not the owner) if they are completely inappropriate for the site". No need to be completely inappropriate, slightly inappropriate is enough to warrant deletion. Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 15:20
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    i mean... i'd rather lose the contributor if it means less crappy questions staying around. There's more joining every day.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 15:46
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    You could have posted your answer to an on topic question instead of an off topic one. that's the risk you take when you choose the off topic one.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 16:01
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    ah gdi. there it goes, the welcoming hidden card. gg everyone. Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 16:01
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    I do not wish to prioritize new users. I wish to prioritize good on topic content. Leaving an off topic post open is counter productive to that goal, regardless of whether or not it results in the loss of a long-term contributor.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 16:05
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    Couldn't be biased since you have answered with currently 7 upvotes ? ;-).
    – JonH
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 19:34

4 Answers 4

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The guidance on the delete questions privilege is rather brief:

Closed questions that are of no lasting value whatsoever should be flagged and deleted.

In my opinion, the question does have some value, and is not blatantly inappropriate/off-topic enough to be deleted solely based on the fact that it's not an appropriate question (it can provide insight to people looking into interprocess communication in Python, since one answer provides a brief overview)

Especially considering the answers, that should be considered when deleting a question, the question should have remained closed (to indicate it's not an appropriate question), but not deleted, so people may view the question and answers on it.

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    "the question does have some value" how about extracting that value into a good question?
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 13:20
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    Well, it was removed again. I think it should be undeleted and locked. This is ridiculous.
    – user4396006
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 13:57
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    I tend to agree - the question isn't the greatest, but answers do have significant value, especially the security issues mentioned. Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 14:00
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    @J.C.Rocamonde You've already raised it on meta. The next step would be flagging it for moderator attention and requesting an undeletion and a lock, but since it's not a very clear-cut, I don't know how that'll end for you (edit: also already undeleted again)
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 14:05
  • Occasionally I see questions that are closed and immediately deleted because they aren't easily comprehensible, so their askers aren't given a chance to clarify or paraphrase them. Commented Apr 4, 2019 at 18:36
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There are two distinct (but related) concerns here:

  1. Should this question and all its answers be deleted?
  2. Should this question even be closed?

For simplicity, I'm going to try to address these in reverse order...

Gorilla vs. Shark: when do "versus" questions need to be closed?

The identified problem with this question is that it demands opinions over facts, not because of any unfortunate wording choices but because of the fundamental needs its author seeks to address: choosing one option over another. This is an age-old dilemma:

Ah... But those aren't all quite the same sorts of questions. While folks might pit bears against dogs (or aliens against predators, or gorillas against sharks) for their own twisted amusement, there are lots of scenarios where one might have the necessity of choosing between, say, fasteners or editors or even beverages.

The keyword here is necessity.

Most folks don't actually need someone else to choose their editor for them. Unless you're building an OS distribution and only have room for a single editor, in which case you probably do want to do more than just wing it.

Most folks are free to drink whatever they wish to. Unless they have a problematic allergy, in which case this question suddenly becomes a lot more necessary and a lot less subjective.

If you're building a bird house, screws and nails are more a matter of personal choice than anything; if you're building a house that has to comply with local building codes and come in under budget, you better not wing it.

This was the crux of Jeff's blog post on the matter:

And most critically, give us context. Explain why you’re looking at this, and what you mean by “better” [...]

If there's no need - if this isn't based on actual problems that you face - then you're just trying to stage a fight for your amusement. And if there is a need, then that need takes center stage.

Jeff lays out a whole four-point test for identifying problems with these questions, but I think we can make this a whole lot simpler:

If you can rewrite the question to take the form "What X should I use to accomplish Y in scenario Z?" then it's not too opinion-based.

...And also, you should probably rewrite the question.

Now, let's see if we can apply that to this question:

  • What's the scenario?

    These two processes are launched by multiprocessing.Process. That data is usually of the sort of dictionaries, lists, and so (just like the data that JSON would allow).

    [...]

    Processes are able to send each other strings or bytes.

  • What needs to be accomplished?

    I have two processes in Python that need to communicate data.

  • What's the problem to be solved?

    I have though about either using JSON strings and loading and dumping the data in each side, or doing the same with pickle.

Ok, that's a little awkward, but it's pretty clear we could rewrite this question:

What serialization method should I use to pass data between two Python processes?

Ok, so the underlying needs of the author are fine; they could've asked this in a less controversial way and been fine (which is good, since lots of other people have already asked essentially this question).

Does that mean we should just rewrite the question? Hell no! At this point, that'd invalidate most of the answers, and we'd probably just end up with a duplicate anyway. But this does give us some useful questions to ask the asker:

  • What sort of data will you need to pass?
  • How much of it will you be working with?

The asker may not know the answers to these questions. But asking them - and trying to answer them in the question (or admitting that they're unknown) gives us more context, a better understanding of the core need here. Anyone can guess that JSON is going to be less flexible and less efficient; identifying where that is likely to become a problem makes for a useful answer and by extension a useful question.

When should a closed question be deleted?

I'm gonna make this one simple: a closed question should be deleted when there's no chance that it should ever be reopened.

Some folks always get real sad when I say that, but... They really shouldn't. A closed question is like a rock sitting on top of a steep hill: it might roll one way, it might roll another, but it probably won't stay put forever; if you really don't want it to roll North, then you'd better push it South.

Artist's rendition of a question pending deletion: large rock about to roll down hill onto someone trying to reopen it.

By the same token... If you really don't want a closed question to be deleted, then you'd better reopen it. A question becomes eligible for deletion pretty fast after being closed; don't suppose that you have years to sit around and think about it.

In closing

The big issue here wasn't that the question got deleted. It's that it got closed. And that in the month before it got closed and the month after it got closed, no one tried to ask those questions and build up a more concrete context, no one tried to dispute the reason for closing, and no one voted to reopen. That big rock just sat there, waiting for someone to give it a little nudge...

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    Yes, that's why I always say: fix the freaking question. I don't get why people get so hung up in these issues when the solution is easy. Make the question better, or make better questions.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 23:57
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I'll go a step further than just advocating undeletion and say that I think - unlike most of the commenters on this Meta question - that there is nothing profoundly wrong with this question and it deserves reopening.

Having to make a choice between two standard serialisation formats for some data is a situation programmers regularly face - a "practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development" in the help center's lingo - and in this particular case the pros and cons are objective, few in number, and straightforward enough that they can be completely enumerated and explained in a few paragraphs. Asking for such an enumeration of pros and cons is neither "too broad", nor "primarily opinion-based".

The final paragraph, which currently asks "If anyone has any alternative that is better, I would also like to know about it.", does admittedly broaden the question considerably and take us into tool recommendation territory. The proper remedy to that, though, is surely to just delete that paragraph entirely and thereby narrow the question's scope to only that implied by the title. We don't need to resort to closure just to deal with a secondary question in the final paragraph.

I'm going to make precisely that paragraph-removing edit, and then vote to reopen.

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    Questions comparing two products without well-defined criteria don't fit Stack Overflow very well. This is a Gorilla vs Shark question, guidance on those has generally been to close them. I'm not that familiar with multithreading in Python, but my general experience with such questions is that they essentially only can be answered with a thorough explanation about how both products work, highlighting the differences, and such content is usually too broad, or with an opinion, and those are of little value.
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 20:32
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    @ErikvonAsmuth I don't think the details of how multiprocessing works are relevant to the question; the existing answers don't explore them, and I don't see anyone suggesting that they're incomplete. As for the characterization of this as a Gorilla vs Shark question, I disagree, for the reason in this answer: the pros and cons here are few and objective. There are already answers posted to the question that describe them all. Jeff's canonical Gorilla vs Shark example asked to compare two entire programming languages; that's hugely different in scope to comparing two serialisation formats.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 20:48
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    @ErikvonAsmuth Or to put it another way: the question that you're labelling as Gorilla vs Shark does not exhibit any of the 4 bad traits that Jeff says are characteristic of Gorilla vs Shark questions in the What, specifically, is wrong with asking Gorilla vs. Shark? part of his blog post. This question has immediate practical relevance to a specific problem the OP has, it's specified narrowly, it could easily become a useful resource for people facing the same choice to learn from, and as a consequence of those things there's nothing about it that should "drive away experts".
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 20:48
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    Meh, afaik multithreading and multiprocessing are broad enough subjects to have this problem. The answers aren't that objective, things like faster in this undefined test are strange and might not be applicable (the OP is way better off testing himself, which the answers sort-of say), and the security arguments are unsubstantiated (limiting the available types != security) and it's also unclear if this applies to the OPs problem, it's all very vague imo. Imo argument 2, it's not nearly specific enough, is applicable, this question is too broad.
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 20:54
-3

The question was not following the rules of Stack Overflow (at first). You can see my comment about it (first comment on the post). It blatently violated this rule of the help center:

Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it.

Those are all problems you don't want. Opinions and spam should be avoided. But if you take a look at the answers, most of them are not opinionated (ironically the user with nearly 40k rep left the only opinionated answer), and none of them are spam. My answer is a list of facts (and a recommendation), and so is the selected answer.

Furthermore, the question was changed to be more pointed and ask about the pros/cons of each. It's since been edited again to ask something different, but that's sort of contrary to the point.

It turns out that we ask questions like JSON vs pickle all the time in real life. These are reasonable questions (in reality), but you just have phrase them the right way in order to avoid opinions on this particular forum. Opinion based questions can still share knowledge and be extremely useful, and can usually be re-interpreted to meet the rules of the forum. (i.e. which is better JSON or pickle vs. List some pros and cons about JSON and Pickle).

Anyway, I wouldn't get hell-bent on reading the rules verbatim. Everything in English can be interpreted in different ways. We're all here to learn and contribute, and if a question is borderline rule-bending (but useful), I say we let it slide.

P.S. I only came here b/c I noticed wild rep changes. It took me a while to find this particular post on meta. There was a link telling me that the question was locked and to visit meta for more info, but it might be nice to actually just link to the meta question so I don't have to hunt for it:

locked by Jon Clements♦ 4 hours ago
This post has been locked while disputes about its content are being resolved. For more info visit meta.
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    "i.e. which is better JSON or pickle vs. List some pros and cons about JSON and Pickle" the only difference between each is that the former is opinion based and the later is too broad.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 19:34
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    @Braiam How is it too broad? It's not like the question is about comparing applications or programming languages, it's just about comparing two data serialization formats. The pros and cons can be comprehensively explained in a few paragraphs.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 19:48
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    @MarkAmery compare all properties of a gorilla and shark.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 20:29
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    @Braiam That's not a valid analogy, since I specifically said some pros and cons not all pros and cons. Furthermore, do you answer questions you're asked with absolute completeness? If I ask how to print to console in C, do you answer with all that happens? Are you going to walk through tokenization, lexing, parsing, build a syntax tree, optimizations, and assembly generation, and then explain how that assembly actually displays the content in my console (EE lecture incoming about signals and systems, too)? There's always an interpretation that a question can be "overly broad". Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 20:48
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    @MattMessersmith which pro and cons should you list? "Some" is ambiguous and open to interpretation in which every potential answerer will have its own set of differences varying importance. That wouldn't happen if you narrow the difference to an specific context or situation.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 23:52
  • @Braiam You're right, but all questions are like that. There's always some interpretation you have to apply. For example, how to print a string to console in C is a perfectly valid question. But which string do you print to console? There's an infinite number of strings you could show how to print. It doesn't matter which string you pick, because no matter which string you pick, you've answered the question. Same thing goes for pros/cons to list. List as many/few as you want: in any order desired. It's up to the answerer to use discretion in this regard (and it always has been). Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 16:22
  • No, @Matt. Only too broad questions asking for the differences between objects without establishing the context and goal against what they are evaluated are like that.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 18:23

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