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Link for 10k users for context: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9185/what-is-the-best-mysql-client-application-for-windows


This question has been deleted again by a moderator. It would be nice to read what argument was given that motivated the deletion.


I know there's another question asking for the undeletion, and since despite the outcries of keeping it deleted were ignored, I think a call trying to move the community against this movement is necessary.


Following the format of Should we delete "What's the best C++ JSON parser?"? I will try to assess objectively the actual value of this question, pointing out merits and faults of this post.

Title

Is evident for most of our very seasoned users that the title is very important. Is the presentation card of the question. What the visitor should expect to find when they follow a link and it has been repeated in several occasions that a good title should summarize what the body is about. Well, this question has a catchy title, we agree, but it fails to describe what the question is about. It gives the expectations to the visitor that they will be given a run down of (dis)advantages of several options. The preliminary lookout seems detached from this expectation.

Body

This question seems pretty specific of what the user is looking for. I ask for applause for the OP.

  • It gives a reference framework of what he's looking for "what the Enterprise Manager / Server Management Studio is for Microsoft SQL"
  • Details what specific features he's looking for: "Editing table structure should not be a PITA", "adding a new row in a "column-list table" as it is done in the Management Studio.", "visualize "foreign key relations" between tables".

I feel that this OP read Tim Post before he even wrote it, just a few tweaks in the wording, less verbosity and this question could fly on SoftRecs. Sadly, these details weren't reflected on the title, which reads "what's the best X", which as I said before sets the expectations of what kind of answers you will read/write for the question.

Answers

The real king here. Answers. Most of the time, we are said that great answers may convert a bad question into a good one... well, remember what I said about the title? Basically, most of the software detailed here are answering the title, which we agree is neither specific nor objective, and forgets about the constrains the OP sets on his question. Lets analyze them one by one:

  • HeidiSQL: it makes reference to one of the four "nice haves" (adding columns/rows, database diagrams, price, and being loosely equivalents to Enterprise Manager/ Server Management Studio) and even then fails the single constrain. Then it references another minus point which through I believe is important to know, it wasn't even asked in first place.
  • Toad for MySQL: Through it doesn't have one of the disadvantages of HeidiSQL, which was never part of the constrains, it fails to address the only one referenced, and doesn't address the other 3 requirements.
  • MySQL Workbench: this one, doesn't even address any requirements given, and the only references are "cons". Not sure why was this one useful?
  • SQLyog: finally! One that addressed all hard (?) requirements, it tells you outright price, that "Editing table: works nicely." yet doesn't offer details, and that doesn't offer diagrams. Score 2 out 4.
  • DbVisualizer: it glances over the tables "display" like a spreadsheet, but only as minus, and even adds the term "Confusing"...
  • Navicat: only tells us that it works on Windows and for less than 95 if you are an individual. 1 (?) out 4.
  • Nucleon Database Master: when I read this for the first time, it gave me the impression that this was copied from the product description at the company page, too marketing-y. I only found a 2012 blog post which contained the first two paragraphs, yet it failed to address any of the requirements.
  • List of stuff: only names, zero descriptions.

So, out of 7 proposed "solutions", only one addressed most requirements yet neither fulfilled the two most important: key visualization and adding rows/columns in a spreadsheet-y. As a recommendation question, I have high expectations that what I will find will fulfill my needs at reasonable levels, yet these solutions fails to do so.

Cool metrics

People says that when we delete a question we somehow "break the internet". It uses links, views, votes, and other metrics to decide so. Well, first of all, votes are not equal to quality. If it were, we wouldn't have so many failsafe mechanisms on the review system to prevent audits from selecting posts that are known for having experienced one or more events that tend to skew these metrics, for the sanity of everyone else. Or, given delete votes so users can delete what roomba decides needs human eyes to decide.

Now, outside Stack Overflow, Google says there are 603 references to this question. I don't know neither Russian, Japanese or Chinese so I can't vouch for those, but the English sites are basically mirrors/scrappers/translators (the last one is new for me) of Stack Overflow. One of the blog which has a link to this question, I'm not even sure what is doing the link where I see it. This 2013 blog only use the content to make its own list of clients. Doesn't reproduce the content of the answer and apparently it wasn't important anyways. I feel that the internet didn't even felt when this question was deleted a bit more than 2 years ago, and it should have stay like that.

Can this be re-deleted, so it doesn't pulls downward the median quality of the site, and makes more users frustrated because their expectations of the high quality curated content wasn't fulfilled?

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  • 3
    Fwiw most of these were cons because most of the "answers" were imported from the question body, where it was primarily commentary from the author explaining why he didn't think each of those solutions solved his problem, which is also why they don't really make sense as answers. They weren't really meant to be answers - they were meant to be more "anything else other than these which I don't want to use?"
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 4:35
  • 8
    @Drew then it has been a WIP for 4 years, I see no interest of anyone to "finish" this... nor to maintain it after it's finished. Is dead weight.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 4:50
  • 2
    We should not make it a precedent to delete questions that have had massive positive impacts like this one. There are always exceptions and if this isn't one then I don't know what is. It would cause more harm deleting this question then keeping it, simple as that.
    – Epic Byte
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 4:55
  • 3
    @Drew it doesn't fulfill a need. People are given the impression that this will be a curated list of the best MySQL clients, we are far cry there.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 4:56
  • 1
    @EpicByte did you read the framework question that I used as template to write this one. Metrics of "impact" is as useful as a arbitrary metric. Current usefulness is and will always be the baseline.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 4:58
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    Whether or not anyone agrees with you, let's be clear: 12 votes is not an "outcry", it's barely a "meh".
    – Ben
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 4:59
  • 5
    @EpicByte "massive positive impacts" On what are you basing this assertion? Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 5:00
  • 1
    @EpicByte can you be more specific? Specifically in that "community contribution" that you refers to.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 5:04
  • 3
    @EpicByte As several of us have said, views are not an indication of quality. Votes maybe, but how do you evaluate votes from 7+ years ago? I really don't see the community contributions to the question as being exemplary though, although I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this point. Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 5:04
  • 14
    @EpicByte I'm more worried about establishing a precedent of undeleting every crap question asked on the Dark Times of Stack Overflow.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 5:18
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    @Drew well, if he says that breaking links is a problem, I think I demonstrated that the internet as whole isn't even linking that question in a useful way, unless I'm missing something?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 6:04
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    @Drew blow them all up! Why would anyone care that scrappers have broken links?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 6:09
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    @Drew I'm still missing on what topic you want to construct over. Broken links are not an issue, and George is, in my opinion, using that fallacy as argument. No one will give you the constructive discussion you want, because no one consider that something that we should bother with. Now, if you feel that broken links are something you care, make your point, so people can discuss with you that. Don't expect that people will figure out what you want if you don't tell them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 6:14
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    I must state that I find it incredible that a moderator has devoted so much effort to this. A significant effort at consolidating answers, at least two long meta-answers, and all the thought processes required. Why? Isn't there something else to do?
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 22:53
  • 2
    @EJP formally, 200K+ views justify Atwood's cleanup. Informally, moderator likely wanted to demonstrate readers how they stand by their claim that question shouldn't be deleted - and answers that were there before cleanup made such claim totally ridiculous
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 27, 2016 at 22:45

2 Answers 2

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To quote George himself,

We do not delete good content.

This question is not good content. Its "answer" is even worse. I'm not going to go into what's bad about it, because @Braiam has done an excellent breakdown of that already.

High upvotes and favourites are not an indication of quality, number of views is not an indication of quality, number of links from Google is not an indication of quality. There is no justifiable reason to keep this question around.

This question is junk and it should be deleted, unrecoverably, as soon as possible.

Addendum: To address the point that Jarrod Roberson brought up in his comment below, I don't give a flying f__k about "good content" that generates many impressions (and neither should you). If Stack Overflow has descended to the level that we have to keep rubbish around to clickbait users in to find something that is so low-quality it doesn't help them one iota, then Stack Overflow has failed.

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    Good Content is that which brings crap tons of eyeballs to the site and pays the bills with ad impressions. You are conflating good with quality, the later was removed from the charter for the site over a year ago. This is how it is now. It is very clear that this question is considered what they want the site to be now regardless of how much community wants it gone.
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 7:46
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    @JarrodRoberson "Stack Overflow is run by the community." Moderators are only a small part of that community. If the community says a question is bad, and a moderator says it's not, then it doesn't matter what the moderator says; the community has decided, and the moderator has to respect that decision. Otherwise SO has failed, because it's no different than any other forum where the admins and mods decide what goes and the community gets the scraps.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:12
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    I would say it is a bad idea to delete any high traffic question. The reason is that it is clearly one end users want to ask as such if you delete it the question will just reappear as new content on the site now to be answered by some new user who doesn't know. This completes the cycle of bad content which is something that would be good to avoid. Instead they should be locked and closed and any future versions closed as duplicates of that one imo.
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:19
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    @Sammaye there are two kind of traffic: good traffic and bad, toxic traffic. This question only attracts the later.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:21
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    That toxic traffic will always be there, without these questions to close to the toxic traffic turns to toxic content as well
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:22
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    @Sammaye Having a canonical, closed question as a dupe target for similar questions is not a bad idea, but at the end of the day nobody should be asking this type of question anyway because it's off-topic. If we leave this question open, someone has to close the duplicated questions as such; if we close it, somebody has to close the duplicates as off-topic. Either way, somebody has to action them.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:25
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    @IanKemp though gold badge holders can action without oversight now, don't forget that
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:58
  • @Sammaye on what tag, if I may ask?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 13:30
  • @Braiam in this case mysql?
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 13:39
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    As I see it we have two choices. The first is to make the content bearable as it will be, at best, that. The second choice is for it or a replacement to have a home on some other site where it truly belongs. Landing on a dead page seems not to be an ingredient of a good business model.
    – Drew
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 13:56
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    @Drew, remember that this was deleted - with a dead link to nearly everyone - for over 18 months. It was only in the last 24 hours that the link was available for users that have less than 10K reputation.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 14:32
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    Then I say deep six it again. The world seems to have survived those last 18 months.
    – Drew
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 14:36
-6

Why not move this to Software recommendations? With a title change (MySQL Client application like Enterprise Manager / Server Management Studio for MS SQL?) it seems fit for that site (as the OP states, the answers are not that good, but the question looks OK).

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  • meta.stackexchange.com/a/10250/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:30
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    @Braiam You mean to say "It is too old"?
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:32
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    Arg, it didn't have the "Don't migrate crap" rule... well, that works too.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 8:41
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    I think it has been said a few times on SO that we shouldn't migrate crap to other sites, so even though it can be asked there, there seems to be a consensus that it shouldn't be moved
    – Sammaye
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 9:11
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    SR.SE has specific topicality requirements (see What is required for a question to contain “enough information”?), and - although I'm not intimately familiar with the site - I suspect questions of the "what's the best foo" variety don't satisfy those requirements.
    – yannis
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 11:58
  • @Yannis. I know, that why I said 'title rewrite'. The question is fine over there.
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 12:02
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    I don't see how rewriting the title would be enough of a change to fit SR.SE's requirements. There simply aren't enough constraints in your rewritten title (and I assume question body) to help it avoid the kind of answers the current version got. How does one objectively pick the better answer in that question?
    – yannis
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 12:05
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    I second the idea to move it to SR.SE, I'm sufficiently active there to know that it can be brought into shape. Saying: Yes it is not a great question, but I've polished worse ones. Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 13:54
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    Good to know that the question could find a home at SR.SE @AngeloFuchs, however migrating it wasn't really a possibility (questions older than 60 days cannot be migrated).
    – yannis
    Commented Jan 26, 2016 at 15:52

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