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The voting system on Stack Exchange community is a very great tool, many users complain about downvotes seeing them as personal and punitive. This is completely false and even if people can perceive many downvotes as harsh and the whole mechanism imperfect, it's not that big deal.

The objective behind the voting system is

  • discouraging poor quality questions
  • having an objective validation of the quality of a question

The question is: does avoiding a cap of downvotes fulfil this objectives?

The only way to have a trustworthy answer is to make an A/B test organized with very strict parameters. Refer to Evidence Based for getting a better knowledge.

Without a specific experiment we can just base our opinions on previous social experiments. The one which I'm citing were done by two famous social psychologists: Robert Cialdini and Elliot Aronson.

Pros of having more than 2 or 3 downvotes in a question

  • teaching people that they must put an effort to write a good question (my opinion)
  • avoiding the website to become like Yahoo Answer (my opinion)
  • It's not so terrible to get a downvote (my opinion)

Cons of having more than 2 or 3 downvotes in a question

  • it's scientifically proved that people tend to replicate the behavior of the majority (see social proof) . This effect is so strong that can work also during homicide (see "Genovese Effect)" → many downvotes or many upvotes are not trustworthy unless they are invisible to the other voters.
  • People tend to be strongly emotional and pseudo rational thought follow (→ see rationalization). A strongly downvoted question shows mostly that it hurted someone emotions (i.e. this refers to the interpretations of the post)
  • All human beings tend to take thing personally. It's related to a feature called cognitive fusion, personality defence mechanism and self serving bias → Many downvotes may hurt people's ego. The number of polemics on downvotes excess may provide a strong evidence of this hypothesis. So it seems to be pretty common to perceive too many downvotes as a punishment.
  • There is a strong difference between saying "the voting system works" and "it works better if not capped". The inability to perceive any difference between the two statement is bound to an istinct called confirmation bias. People tend to defend their opinions.
  • People are often unable to recognize their irrational behavior and their error in reasoning → see cognitive bias and distortions. Both are in all human beings, no one excluded.
  • Most of people, included moderators and people who got strongly downvoted, tend to defend in a very irrational and strong way their ideas once they have publicly expressed their position → See Commitment and Consistency
  • it's pretty easy to find posts were downvoters were completely wrong. We are humans we make mistakes.

Question:

Has there been any statistical investigation to check if capping downvotes would improve or degrade the objectivity of the voting system and the customer satisfaction?

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  • 7
    Not a single one of your "cons" is actually relevant to the existence of a cap. Even if your assertions were all correct (which I would dispute) they would all apply equally even if there was a cap in place.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:06
  • 8
    A person with a post at -200 has posted content that is much more problematic than one that is at -2, so I would expect someone to justifiably be more concerned, because they've done something much more wrong. It's a good thing for someone to be much more concerned if they've posted a -200 post, and they're getting that valuable feedback that they've done something that's not just wrong, but very wrong.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:12
  • 5
    Stating that I've made a logical mistake doesn't really mean anything. What did I say that was mistaken, and what's your reasoning for why it is mistaken? Just asserting that I'm mistaken without any evidence or support for your position doesn't mean anything.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:14
  • 6
    You're talking about capping downvoting as if not doing it would be illogical. Also, you're not taking the voters feeling in perspective. If a question had that 3 downvotes, and I would feel it was a really bad question, I would want to do something about this. Votes are a good way of signaling others that a question isn't properly asked. Limiting downvotes removes this power from the users.
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:14
  • 4
    Also: It's pretty easy to find posts were downvoters were completely wrong? I doubt that's true for more than 3 downvotes, and single downvotes can still be wrongfully placed.
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:15
  • 5
    So you're saying that you're completely confident, with absolute certainty, that all posts that have a negative score are equally problematic and have exactly the same problematic value? You've just done the exact thing that you're claiming shouldn't be done. Sure, votes aren't a perfect metric of quality, they're an approximation, but they've been shown to be a useful approximation nonetheless. While it is certainly possible that, in certain exceptional situations, a given post's score won't accurately reflect its quality, it is a useful signal as it true often enough.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:16
  • 11
    @Revious yes, please do. Examples help questions, but as you probably know when referencing statistics and social science, n=1 doesn't say a lot. If you can provide us with multiple recent questions that suffered from excessive (>3) incorrect downvotes, that would certainly increase the validity of your point.
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:23
  • 21
    @Revious So you're saying that because you can't be bothered to provide evidence to support your extreme accusation, that flies in the face of considerable evidence and established facts, we should just accept your extremely bold claims without evidence and make radical changes to the system? That's...not how things work. If you expect people to be convinced that your position has merit, you're going to need to provide evidence to support it, rather than just telling people that you're right and that we should believe your rhetoric alone.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:31
  • 4
    @Revious I'm not bothering you with homework just to annoy you, I just sincerely doubt if there are actual good questions that get incorrectly downvoted more than 3 times shortly after being asked (they still can get incorrectly downvoted up to 3 times if we cap it). For longer existing questions, certainly, misplaced downvotes can accumulate, just as misplaced upvotes can, but their relevance is limited (since questions tend to get answered within the first few days) (and of course, meta doesn't count, since downvotes here express disagreement and don't reflect on the quality of the question)
    – Erik A
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:33
  • 12
    We are more than willing to look into the problem. Provided there IS a problem. So yes the onus is on you to prove the point you are trying to make. It's not homework, it's just proving your theory. You advanced a lot of claims using social science. None of these points are relevant if we can't see an example of these behaviors in place. So unless you can provide a couple of valid examples, this will likely not go anywhere. And I love how you think that a user with high rep = automatic good questions... isn't this an "argument from authority" fallacy?
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:41
  • 13
    "it's pretty easy to find posts were downvoters were completely wrong." But not a single example given... Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 17:54
  • 4
    capping at 3 seems absurd to me. That would mean we are to trust 3-6 (because we'd have to cap upvotes too) users and ignore the opinions of the rest of the community that happens upon that post. It would disallow the possibility of something having, say, 10 upvotes and 5 downvotes, because you'd cap at 3/3 before getting there. we'd lose valuable information.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 18:06
  • 16
    I did warn you to properly research before posting. Looks like you didn't take my advice. I fully disagree with this suggestion.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 18:35
  • 8
    I can't recall seeing a pile-on that wasn't the result of one of the following: wildly off topic question, homework dump, extremely common duplicate, OP actively refusing to provide clarification in comments, OP being rude in comments (or post or on meta), edit wildly changing a question after being answered, answer being flat out wrong, answer is not actually an answer. There are posts that eventually get a lot of down votes over time but getting slammed with a lot of down votes at once usually requires more than just "already down voted once".
    – BSMP
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 19:11
  • 5
    Discarding people's opinions because, "They don't understand the topic" isn't going to fly here. Are you a programmer? Are we? Yes? Then we're just as qualified as you. Your reception is going to be extremely chilly if you try to pull the, "You don't know what you're talking about" card. Either argue on the merits of the discussion, or don't, but telling us you know better won't do anything but make people ignore you.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:55

2 Answers 2

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I don't agree with your proposed solution of limiting down-votes. Brad already addressed that in his answer and I don't have much to add to that.

I do agree with some of your observations, so let me expand on that a bit.

"You deserve all the down-votes you get if you provide crap content" is more or less the current meta zeitgeist, but that strikes me as ... cold, and lacking in kindness; and more importantly, it's not necessarily the most effective way of doing things. Most people respond better to criticism if it's stated in a kind and friendly (rather than harsh) way.

And make no mistake, receiving loads of down-votes is harsh. People on meta say that "down-votes shouldn't be taken personally", but as you already said they do get taken personally, and not a whole lot we say on meta is going to change that.

The question here is if can we do something about it, or is the current system simply "the worst system, except for all the other ones that have been tried"?

I'm not sure what the answer to that is, but I strongly suspect that we can do better.

For example, there is no reason we need to use the same indicator for both the author and the rest of the community. For example we could display the score to everyone except the author, who will see a textual description such as "excellent", "good", "neutral", or "poorly received". I suspect that such text labels would result in fewer hurt feelings and be more effective in prompting people to fix their question/answer.

In other words, the current system is fine, as such, it's just the communication that's not always ideal. It's the difference between telling someone that their question is stupid and lazy vs. telling them that they should consider buying a Python programming book to pick up the basics followed by some encouragement by telling them that learning to program was hard for all of us. Unfortunately, down-votes are closer to the first example than the second.

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  • 6
    The main issue I have with that (and I usually am on for a kinder experience for everyone) is that going in nicely results in US getting abused. I got tired of being told to shut up and just answer questions. Granted, some OPs aren't rude and don't push back quite as hard... but I agree we can still provide a slightly nicer feedback to the OPs. The one thing about your scale though is that it's skewed positively. If we have both "good" and "excellent" on the + scale, I'd believe we need to differenciate between "poorly received, try to edit it" and "poorly received, please nuke it from space"
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 19:51
  • 9
    So your solution to "people get upset and take things personally when they're politely told that their post has problems" is "don't tell people when their post has problems, so they don't get upset". That...just doesn't work. If people aren't told that they're doing something wrong, they're going to keep doing what they're doing, and have no reason to change their behavior, and for the types of people that complain about downvotes, the problem is the mere act of being told that you're wrong, not that it's being done inappropriately.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 19:55
  • 3
    @Carpetsmoker And what different way are you proposing? For most people the problem is the mere act of being informed that they're wrong that is problematic, regardless of the manner.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 19:58
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    I would very much disagree with that. People are already defensive when they receive negative feedback, and attaching labels to it doesn't change that. I've lost count of the number of times new users respond to critique with, "if you don't know, then shut up and let someone else answer". They don't want opposition; they want an answer, and don't care about quality standards.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 20:10
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    I'm a nice guy and great mentor, but the last thing I want to do is to have to fish a question out of someone asking me for help. If you don't fully understand what you're asking about or you don't provide a good, clear thing that you're asking about, I see nothing cruel about downvoting your post. On the contrary, I find it cruel for one to assume that I'm being cold on purpose, or that I do this out of some vindictive nature. I don't care what you're asking. If it isn't well-formed, you're getting downvotes. You may not like that, but I value my time slightly more than your feelings.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 20:14
  • 3
    @Carpetsmoker I would estimate anywhere from 95-99% of responses are negative; even on Arqade, where I'm most active, the same attitude persists; shut up and help, screw quality. And as I'm a very prolific commentor, I get more than my fair share of hate. Not always from new users, either. The point is that users have to adapt to the community, and most don't care to even try.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 20:28
  • 8
    The problem with your approach is that the negative emotions expand to fill the allowed space, as seen in grade inflation phenomenon. People who now feel bad for receiving > 3 downvotes will feel just as bad about being "poorly received" after a while. Eventually anything that's not "excellent" will be considered abuse.
    – user3458
    Commented Sep 7, 2017 at 20:41
  • 5
    I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. There is nothing "harsh" about a downvote. It's way nicer than some snarky comments, so I am all for driving people towards the downvote button instead of the "add comment" link. The chances that someone who would otherwise downvote would leave a snarky comment are just too high. It's also way too much effort---the amount of effort users spend interacting with a low-quality post should be commensurate with the amount of effort that the poster put into it. It's nice to think that everything should be kitties and flowers, but reality says different.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 5:42
  • 4
    I see this argument presented a lot, so I want to think that it might have some merit, but I just cannot see it, no matter how many times I evaluate it. (Similar to certain other arguments currently circulating in popular political discourse.) I just don't follow the assumption that a downvote is "harsh", or that it says a person is "stupid and lazy". It doesn't do any of those things. It serves as an indicator that a post is unclear or not interesting to your peers (i.e., other software developers). It's no different than your "excellent", "good", etc. scale, except it's quantitative.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 5:45
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    "Cognitive psychology"..."scientific" <-- tee hee
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 12:20
  • 3
    You have absolutized the opinion that all downvoters are always wrong, entirely incorrectly, and you've absolutized the opinion that I feel votes are infallible, despite the fact that I've indicated the opposite many times. Rather than providing anything to support your position, all you're doing is accusing people of saying things when they have specifically said the opposite of those things. Now will you kindly stop making this mistake? Are you taking it personally?
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 13:19
  • 4
    @Revious If you feel my conclusions are wrong, then explain how they're wrong. Stating that I'm wrong with no explanation for how I am wrong is meaningless.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 13:34
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    @Revious So you're example of "emotional and unconstructive" downvoting is people downvoting a question that you personally agree is not a good question and that needs improving, and is therefore a question that merits being downvoted. That's...not supporting your position. You've just demonstrated a case of people accurately providing feedback that a question that you agree is bad is in fact bad, and the result of that is that you've been incentivised to try to figure out how to improve it. Huzzah! The system works.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 13:37
  • 4
    @Revious Many of those points are subjective, yes. I never said otherwise. I did however back up those points with evidence (something you appear to be largely unfamiliar with doing). Rather than just stating that you're disproving your own position, I explained how you're doing so (that you've provided an example of a question you think is bad and providing it as evidence that people downvote good questions).
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 13:56
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    I'm going to make a few final comments here, because I'm starting to think we're feeding a troll. Your first example, as already explained, shows poor quality, and so was downvoted. The other three examples of "questions that don't show effort yet were upvoted" are from 2010 and 2011, back when the standards of quality were much more relaxed. Using these as any sort of evidence pertaining to what is happening in present time is inappropriate.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 14:05
38

Pile-ons for voting can happen in both directions. To make this truly "objective", you'd need to cap voting in the positive direction, too. That's clearly not going to happen, so any cap on downvotes allowed would skew voting in the positive direction.

If you allow unlimited upvotes and limit downvotes, you get the biased voting we currently see in comments. 100 people might think something is wrong, but five people think it's right, so a comment shows as a score of 5 even if it's wildly wrong or harmful. This has bothered me for a while, and I think SE should revisit allowing downvotes on comments for just this reason. People should be able to express that something is incorrect as freely as they do that something is correct.

Since we're talking about the psychological influence of seeing a vote score as someone is voting on a post, maybe you meant that downvotes should be hidden to the viewer below a certain threshold. Cap the displayed sum of votes at -4 or something, so that people can still cast more downvotes but the lowest score ever shown for a post it -4.

First, the pile-on effect for voting starts the instant something flips into positive or negative territory, so I don't know that any cap other than 0 would make a significant impact on this.

Once again, you'd have to provide an argument why the opposite shouldn't also be true and a cap placed on displayed positive score. If you limit displayed negative scores but not positive scores, wouldn't that skew overall voting to the positive and make things less objective? I'm not as certain about this as I am about limiting the votes themselves, but I bet that'd be the case.

To be completely objective when it comes to voting, you'd have to hide the score until the point someone votes. That negates the core value of the SE system, so that's not going to happen.

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  • +1. Yes, you are right.. if the objective of voting would be reaching the mosto objective score for the question, according to social psychology, we can suppose that the previous voter's score should be hidden. (see the point on social proof). Anyway first of all a serious objective speaking about the voting system should start on what are the objectives?
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:50
  • One of course is involvement of users, especially the kind of users which answer a lot. Rewarding them, making them feel part of a community is one of the primary objectives.
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:51
  • Another important objective is to easily find the more fitting answer.
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:52
  • 1
    Another is discouraging unconstructive behaviours.
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:52
  • (sorry if I write in many comments.. it's a bit problematic since I don't have formatting here)
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:53
  • Now, as you can easily check, downvoting is not discouraging non constructive behaviors but simply favors pre-built standard answers which often do not fit at all the specific question. Have a look to this question. It was perfectly ok, as I will prove in a few seconds, but not fitting on SO. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/356250/… - The comments are completely misleading, the community did a poor job.
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 11:59
  • The same question was well received on other two section where it fits better: dba.meta.stackexchange.com/a/2837/50702, math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/26942/… - the only suggestion I got is: "why did you asked in the meta instead of on the main site?"
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 12:01
  • We both know that SE have to deal with many different people from 15 to 60 years old and that managing communities require an autoritative approach, but the system is perfectible and if someone really wants to get deeper I'm open to speak of it. If not, no problem
    – Revious
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 12:03
  • "One of course is involvement of users, especially the kind of users which answer a lot." Although there is indeed a need for people to answer questions, that is only secondary to the main goal of creating a repository of programming knowledge.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 14:19
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    "Now, as you can easily check, downvoting is not discouraging non constructive behaviors but simply favors pre-built standard answers which often do not fit at all the specific question." Not at all, it actually prevents people from wasting their time with poor quality questions. Your examples are from Meta sites, which obviously do not function the same way. If the communities around them agree that such a question could be on-topic, then they won't be displaying the same form of disagreement as shown here.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 8, 2017 at 14:23

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