-52

It is clear that there are egregiously bad questions that deserve more than one downvote ... to get the message through to the person who posted the Question.

But it is also clearly a bad experience for someone who has made an innocent mistake. Under most circumstances one downvote is enough to let the user know that they have made a mistake.

So how do we stop people just piling on the downvotes?

Here's a suggestion. Make downvotes on Questions have a variable cost on reputation.

  • If the Question currently has a net vote score >= zero, the reputation cost is zero.

  • If the Question currently has a net voting score of -1, the reputation cost is -2.

  • If the Question currently has a net voting score of -N, the reputation cost is -2N.

This would discourage most people from dumping yet another downvote.

Now I can see that there would be difficulties in implementing this. For a start, it would be necessary to record you much each down-vote cost the down-voter in case they decided to reverse the vote. (But the easy solution is to make the reputation non-refundable!)

What do people think?


UPDATE - Maybe the threshold of -1 is too high:

  • What do people think of only penalizing "piling on" behavior if the threshold was beyond -3? Or -5?

  • What if there was a popup that said: "Dear user: this downvote is going to cost you -100 reputation points, do you really want to do it?"

Is anyone here arguing that "piling on" the negative votes is actually helpful / good for the StackOverflow community? If so, why? Put it in an Answer please, so that other people can express their opinions on your arguments by voting on your Answer ...

21
  • 9
    Casts downvote before reading question, just in case it's bad, to not lose rep
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 8:24
  • That'd loose you nearly all your rep if you were the 20th downvoter on a question, Stephen.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 8:26
  • 10
    What proportion of really bad questions are due to 'innocent mistakes', and how many are,due to selfish deadbeats trying to con other users into doing research, homework, paid work and/or 'Computers 101'unpaid private tuition? Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 8:43
  • 24
    Why does the fact that an "innocent mistake" has been made affect the quality of the question itself? Downvotes are content rating mechanisms, serving the exact opposite purpose of upvotes. They're not "punishment"; they cannot be "piled on". One person; one vote.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 8:48
  • 1
    I think the idea is right, you are judt trying to fix it on the wrong side. On the curators end, downvoting is an important measure of quality. But for the OP, it does not matter wether the question was downvoted once, twice or ten times. Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 9:59
  • 2
    @JonasWilms when my first question got downvoted, my defense mechanism kicked in and I assumed “ok one person didn’t get how great this question actually is”, only after fifth downvote did I consider to follow the how to ask link in the comment. Different people will react differently to amount of critique.
    – ead
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 11:45
  • @ead yes, I try to be that kind of person too ... but honestly sometimes I do take downvotes personal. And there's another thing: Downvotes are proportional to attention. Just link a closeworthy question here on Meta and you'll get from -2 to -20 ... Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 12:38
  • I like that approach, give more power to the reputation "rich" people and try to discourage people with lower reputation to cast their votes.
    – Tom
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 14:11
  • 1
    This is not a duplicate. This is a specific plan separate to the duplicate target.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 5:46
  • "That'd loose you nearly all your rep if you were the 20th downvoter on a question, Stephen." - Would that be a bad thing? Seriously, is there ever any good reason to downvote a StackOverflow question that is on a net -20 score?
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 7:31
  • @Tom - well sure. But from the community perspective, we don't want / need anyone to be punishing people by downvoting questions into oblivion. (And I would hope that the high reputation ("rich") users already know that. But, hey, if they want to burn their reputation, that's their business.)
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 7:37
  • Better to show the score logarithmically. Even better to have people vote for a point on a logarithmic score & show the distribution.
    – philipxy
    Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 9:17
  • 5
    That "punishment" argument again ... you know very well that votes are not against the user, thus can't be punishment. I wonder why you argue for that approach instead of capping the downvotes at a certain level. Also rich users have far less issues with their reputation when downvoting a -2 question to -3 (which would cost 4 points) than low-rep users. So you're punishing (I use that word since you seem to like that analogy) low-rep people for expressing their opinion using a system that is designed to exactly that.
    – Tom
    Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 11:19
  • @Tom - I am talking about people who participate in a down-vote fests. Not people who ask poor questions. And yes, I do think "pile on" needs to be stopped. STOPPED. And if it takes punishment to change people's behavior, then lets punish people. People don't need to express their opinions by heaping downvotes on someone's question. It is anti-social. If they really, really, really want to do it, let them pay.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 13:23
  • 2
    I don't like the proposed solution. I would much more prefer if we would stop displaying questions with a score of -5 or less until they are edited at least once. Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 17:38

3 Answers 3

35

Yea, no.

The problem here is that downvotes are seen as "unwelcoming" and "not nice".
It's just a quality control mechanism.

Sure, a single downvote may not be the most happy experience, but when there's multiple, there's usually something very wrong with the question.

If a question is that bad that it ends up getting downvoted beyond, say, -3, it's often either spam, rude, or so extremely common that it has a bazillion of dupes already.

That's not a "simple mistake". That's a lack of research / effort, or even ill intent.

What you're proposing is a change that would make the third downvote, the one that makes a question deletable, cost 8 rep, while removing any incentive not to downvote a freshly posted question, by making that downvote free of charge.

1
  • 8
    Not to mention this opens up a lot of opportunity for trickery, such as upvoting a very bad -1-scored question so someone else can downvote it, only to retract the upvote within the 5-minute window
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 8:42
20

Downvotes used to cost reputation, but that cost was removed because users were not using their votes often enough because of the reputation cost.

Despite downvotes on questions being "free", these are still much less prevalent than upvotes, although the amount of bad questions does not seem to have decreased lately:

votes over time graph

(Kudos to rene for the nice SEDE query)

Adding back a cost for downvoting questions (even more so such a high cost, or even worse a non-refundable cost) would tilt the balance even more towards upvoting, making systems that depend on voting (like the question ban, home-page suppression, etc) much harder to work effectively.

Not to mention the detrimental effects on question curation in general, since bad questions would be much harder to delete.

3
  • 4
    I've also one that is per month
    – rene
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 10:09
  • 3
    I'd be terribly disappointed if you didn't. ;) But I think the yearly aggregation does a better job at showing the voting trends, without the noisy monthly swings.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 26, 2019 at 10:12
  • 1
    Does this include votes on deleted content? If not, it could be skewed. Commented Oct 27, 2019 at 17:41
7

Considering that downvotes are not "punishment" should tell you that your perspective is misaligned. Misinterpretation is a common problem with many of the network's features, but the answer to that isn't to make it harder to show your judgment of a post. It's to educate users about the actual purpose of those votes.

There are going to be cases where votes are "piled on"; that happens, and it's unfortunate. The vast majority of those, however, are going to happen from questions that are brought to attention here on Meta, which is frequented by the most quality-minded users of Stack Overflow. The corollary is also true: posts can equally be "piled on" with upvotes, and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Perhaps they also need a cost to prevent being piled on?

At the end of the day, downvotes are important. Arguably, voting (in both directions) is one of the most important things users can do to help ensure the signal to noise ratio is as high as possible. Downvotes also feed the automatic rate-limiting systems, like the question ban. The less time future readers have to spend finding good quality content, the better. We're here for them, not at the service of the original asker.

A good way to know if a barrier to downvotes will be acceptable is to apply the same barrier to upvotes. If it sounds unreasonable when upvoting, it's definitely unreasonable when downvoting. They both serve the same purpose: to rank content on its utility. Bad content is bad content.

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  • And how do you educate them?
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:36
  • 2
    By making it clearer what the purpose of downvotes are. This doesn't mean that people will accept them for that purpose, but it doesn't change the fact that they're not punishment. Right now, we get users on an almost daily basis coming to MSO to rant about their downvotes, and we have to, yet again, explain that they're not personal, they continue to rant, we close their question, and nobody wins. They are needed to prevent chronic bad askers from continuing to suck up curation resources, beyond just the signal to noise ratio.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:40
  • Sorry, but the purpose of downvotes is already clear, but they are also clearly being abused. And the people who are abusing them are not interested in being educated. The problem of people complaining about downvotes is not relevant to my proposal.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:43
  • 3
    Show examples of abuse, please. I challenge that assertion. If anything, new users are abusing the time of volunteers trying to keep the site clean, by refusing to meet site standards, recreating new accounts to bypass the question ban, and overall, just wasting the time of others.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:43
  • stackoverflow.com/questions/58590331/… This did not need 3 downvotes.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:46
  • stackoverflow.com/questions/33782392/… - Has has this guy been back? I doubt it!
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:50
  • 5
    ...You're complaining about three downvotes? That's not abuse in any sense. I thought you were complaining about 20+ downvotes, not a whole three. I can see why it got a few, though; people are tired of users refusing to search for errors, and just dump their question. It has pictures of code instead of actual code. There's no MRE. Those questions meet the tooltip handily; zero research went into it. That's not abuse on the voter's part. That doesn't warrant three downvotes? I'd say it warrants far more.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:50
  • Yes. I am complaining about 3 downvotes!!! You are actually advocating that multiple downvotes is a good thing. You are one of the people who I have challenged to justify that position.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:50
  • 4
    Well, then I suggest you realign your expectations; that's unreasonable. You're saying people shouldn't judge content because it might hurt feelings, and I feel that's an untenable position.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:51
  • 3
    "Has this guy been back? I doubt it!" - actually, yes, he has, and his second question was much better received.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:52
  • 1
    How do we reconcile the "vote as you see fit, no matter the score of a question" with what you're saying though, @Stephen? Cause, I can see your point (I don't agree to it, but I can see it). However, voting that way is exactly what the site says we should do...... it really points to a lack of alignment in expectations, guidance, and documentation :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:53
  • @F1Krazy - Only once. I guess he must have given up asking questions.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 13:54
  • 4
    I'm a huge proponent of personal responsibility, @Stephen. That means I believe people need to own their actions, good and bad. Sometimes, that means facing a hard truth that's unpleasant. That helps you grow and become a better person. While the impetus is unpleasant, I feel that attempting to soften that feedback does the poster a massive disservice, especially as that's never been the purpose of voting in the first place. Beyond that...you still haven't said if you feel applying this barrier to upvotes would be reasonable.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 28, 2019 at 14:34

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