64

I find myself browsing questions and answers and handing out up votes when I think an answer or question is useful. I am hesitant to hand out down votes but I will when a question/answer exceeds a pretty high threshold of uselessness. I feel that I could improve my adherence to the spirit of the button text by more aggressively down voting. But I probably won't

Gamesmanship

However, I find it disturbing that I start to game my votes. For example, I often find other answers useful on questions that I have provided an answer. I want to up vote them because I know how much effort goes into preparing answers and when a poster provides useful information, I want to click on the up button. But when I've answered the same question, I hold back on those up votes until I see if I get some first. My thinking is that if I up vote another and raise their answer above mine, they then have a higher likelihood to be up voted again and have their answer chosen by the OP. If I'm interested in points and admittedly I am, it isn't in my best interest to up vote others too early. This is exacerbated by the fact that question answers usually only get 3-4 votes total for the tag I usually answer questions for (I'm guessing those numbers).

Question

Is there a way to incentivize people to avoid gamesmanship? Should this be a concern? Or an accepted feature?

What are other's thoughts?

10
  • 4
    Relevant reading: FGITW and SCITE.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 22:19
  • 1
    You know Terry Pratchett's famous Death character? We're speaking in BOLD LETTERS unhearable and silently, using these features. So just take on your responsibility! Commented May 19, 2016 at 22:34
  • 12
    Intellectual honesty and egolessness... Strive for it. :o)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 1:54
  • 5
    I don't see a problem with not upvoting someone else, especially if you think your answer is better. If it is better, you would be helping people for millenia to come by doing what you can to get your answer to the top. Come back in a couple of weeks and vote up that other answer. Commented May 20, 2016 at 6:23
  • 3
    There's also another side: when I see my answer is better, I can upvote the worse ones, because then people would see that the better one have less votes, which increases possibility they would upvote mine.
    – Hi-Angel
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:52
  • 10
    What you could do is gameify yourself in the opposite direction. There's an achievement that you can hunt down if you upvote answers on a question you have a positive answer on: stackoverflow.com/help/badges/805/sportsmanship Hunt that achievement down!
    – DJMcMayhem
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 17:16
  • 9
    StackOverflow is designed around gamification - that's not going to change. It's both a feature and a bug. Honestly, the only winning move is not to play. If you must play, however, there is a built-in failsafe: the importance of the game is inversely related to user reputation. I think you'll be fine.
    – user677526
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 17:58
  • 6
    Gamificating people into avoiding gamification? I like where this is going.. Commented May 22, 2016 at 9:34
  • 2
    I object to the common characterization of SO as a game. It's a place where people help each other, get help, display their expertise, challenge themselves, and learn. Yes, there are nominal rewards in the form of points (which, by the way are called reputation points, rightly so, not winnings or dollars or world domination), and I am one of those who, oddly, care about them, but the competition aspect of SO is just one piece for me. Maybe it's that I know that I like to teach (I get paid to do it). I'll bet anyone with significant rep here does, too, whether they realize it or not.
    – Mars
    Commented May 22, 2016 at 12:14
  • 1
    "However, I find it disturbing that I start to game my votes." If you really find it disturbing, the best advice is probably to try to avoid doing it. Commented May 22, 2016 at 21:25

7 Answers 7

72

It is not just you, out of the millions of users only a small percent have earned the badge for being a "good sport".

enter image description here

In general, badges are in place to offer incentive to activity which would be beneficial to the community. This is one of those places. However, it is simply disregarded by many as evidenced by the low amount of use.

My advice would be not to worry about upvoting other answers if they are competing. Write your answers to stand the test of time and address both the specific issue at hand as well as the broader related issue implied (where present).

Doing this will ensure that your answers garner votes, and will have far more impact than your 1 vote to another answer to the same question.

15
  • Almost forgot about that badge. Commented May 19, 2016 at 22:50
  • @πάνταῥεῖ - You have one too :D Welcome to the club haha
    – Travis J
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 22:51
  • Think I remember earning it during a winter bash (was it even a hat before becoming a badge??) ... Commented May 19, 2016 at 23:21
  • 53
    What badge do I get for downvoting 100 answers where my answer has a positive score? Commented May 20, 2016 at 6:24
  • 18
    @ButtleButkus: Gamesmanship?
    – Pavel V.
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 7:38
  • 15
    Perhaps, a gold badge named forthrightness can be invented - given when people "Up vote 500 answers on questions when an answer of yours has a positive score" :P
    – Ian
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 13:02
  • 6
    @Ian I like it
    – Barry
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 17:08
  • 1
    @πάνταῥεῖ was it even a hat before becoming a badge The first winter dash was 2012. The first sportsmanship badges were awarded in 2010 Commented May 20, 2016 at 17:22
  • 27
    I'd like to point out that I've posted fewer than 100 answers, let alone 100 answers with positive scores. I think that might be as much, if not more, of the reason few people have the Sportsmanship badge than people trying to get their answer to rise to the top.
    – Kevin
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 17:25
  • 4
    @Kevin True, but you can vote up more than one other answer per answer of yours (assuming that there is more than one answer other than yours.)
    – reirab
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 19:59
  • 2
    @Kevin for people with < 100 answers, Barry has an interesting idea
    – Ian
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 0:54
  • 3
    There's a solution - socially-engineer away gamificiation with gamification!
    – Fattie
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 14:33
  • Not sure if a badge is enough to change gamesmanship much. Commented May 22, 2016 at 21:21
  • You can get Sportsmanship while still doing the described “Gamesmanship”. It may take only slightly longer than without. But apparently, most users don’t upvote other answers at all, not even in a “Gamesmanship” style. That’s what the rarity of the badge (awarded only 2091 times) tells us.
    – Holger
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 18:19
  • @Holger - Exactly, other users seemingly avoid upvoting "competing" answers even when the content would imply usefulness. However, that does not show a lack of voting. I wonder what the inverse situation would be, as in how many times would a "downvote 100 answers on a post where you have an answer" badge have been awarded? I would assume there would be many more. Although, to be fair, sometimes other answers are just flat out wrong and as an answerer you are already observing that content - which is what is slightly dismaying about the behavior of not upvoting quality content when observed.
    – Travis J
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 18:27
24

You are just one of many who will consider voting on the material on the page. Don't worry about avoiding gamesmanship.

Given enough time and attention, marginal/poor answers that aren't downvoted will likely start to receive upvotes from well-meaning but uneducated voters.

As a strong answerer, you are likely knowledgeable on the subject at hand, and know good answers from bad ones. Use that knowledge for the benefit of others. Comment on poor answers and discuss their flaws, and downvote them.

People don't usually downvote because it costs them a reputation point, so your downvote means something - it contributes signal and proportionally reduces noise. By downvoting, the rest of us get the benefit of your knowledge.

Don't feel badly about not upvoting, as well. You can't vote for your own answer, after all, so you shouldn't feel obligated to vote for others when they compete directly with your own. Let other voters vote, as they give your answer a fair consideration against the others for their upvotes. If you would downvote your material, you should probably just delete it in the first place.

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  • 2
    One could even go as far as forbidding answerers to vote on anything in a question they answered, even on the question itself. Commented May 22, 2016 at 21:23
  • I focus on Python. When I answer Python questions, I usually check out the other answers and I downvote the bad ones. Thus other readers can get the benefit of my downvote. If we forbid voting when you answer, we'll have less signal, and that's bad. If you have an expert looking at a page, you would want the greatest benefit from them. You would want their votes and their answers as well. Wouldn't you?
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented May 22, 2016 at 23:44
  • You're right, that would be the disadvantage. But if you would feel that you start gaming your votes like the questioner here feels (for example not upvoting good answers from others to questions you are also an expert on for some obscure reason or just so that your answer shines more), then we would also have biased signal and that is almost as bad as noise. You would lose signal but also you might lose bias which might in the end give an overall benefit or not - I don't know. Commented May 23, 2016 at 7:30
  • You might see increasingly negative comments being made to compensate for the lack of votes, which could improve the signal, but may lead to more kerfuffles, more mod intervention, and more rage-quitting. When a user is having a bad day, the silent downvote is probably better than a comment made in the wrong mood.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 11:53
11

SO is built upon the concept of gamification. You're meant to be treating it as a game -- hopefully a fun one. There's nothing wrong with playing a game strategically against other players -- they'll be doing the same to you. If you're more experienced (i.e. have spent more time perfecting your gaming skills), then you'll know tricks that your opponents wont until they gain the same level of experience as yourself.

I will upvote a question I've answered (I don't even read bad questions, so if I've answer'd it then its a good question. I'll go through and downvote answers that are simply wrong. And, I'll not add any up votes to another person's answer unless it is simply stunning.

So, carry on, and enjoy it.

7
  • IMO this is the correct answer. SO is a 'consumer-production' startup waiting to be bought by google which is based on the risible "gamification" idea. Incredibly, a percentage of folks have so little "life" that they get in to this. But then, we live in a historical era where 'The Kardashians' are a thing. So there's no surprise. The magical upside of this is the astounding advances in engineering possible due to the crowd-cloud QA concept. You just have to ignore the sewer of the "gamification" aspect. In answer to the OP's question, it's absolutely impossible to change behavior.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 14:29
  • ie, the question at hand would be like asking "I observe we live in a historical period where 'The Kardashians' are a thing - no, really - what can I do about that? How can I stop people watching?" The answer is there's no way to do so. Just ignore it. Try to teach your children that it's an unbelievably lame look to get in to 'The Kardashians' or 'gamification on a startup web site'. Social engineering is impossible.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 14:32
  • @JoeBlow I think that Google would only buy SO to shut it down, which I guess would be a good windfall for the SO shareholders. Only the programming forum has any net presence worth consideration, and that would just conflict with Google Groups. There's probably no revenue stream worth mentioning so it's unlikely to be an attractive investment. SO primarily seems to be a massively multi player on line brinkmanship game.
    – Paul Uszak
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 21:40
  • @JoeBlow As for social engineering, I think that you'll find that it's not only possible, but done all the time. Consider that western governments have taught you that terrorism is the greatest threat in the world even though hardly anyone gets killed. In the UK cars are evil and the bicycle must be promoted above all else and that these days the interests of the child outweigh the interests of the family. Any of these sound familiar? Try watching some Adam Curtis documentaries to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
    – Paul Uszak
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 21:56
  • only governments can do social engineering - coz only they have fiat currency
    – Fattie
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 22:09
  • @JoeBlow -- you are insane. 1) Almost every person on the face of the planet engineers the society around them. We start the second we exhale our first breath and we stop only when we exhale our last. 2) There is nothing about the Kardashians that defines this era as historic in any way. 3) There is nothing wrong with gamification -- it serves many purposes. Personally, I'm a contractor, and I have been for thirty-five years, I can now use SO to show off some of my work and my rep has been helpful -- if I spent more time here, it would be more helpful (and if we got rid of homework). Commented May 22, 2016 at 20:45
  • @EngineerDollery - you are insane. Heh!
    – Fattie
    Commented May 22, 2016 at 20:50
5

For what it's worth, here is the policy I have privately adopted and it works pretty well for me.

  • I only post an answer when I believe that the question is valuable and none of the existing answers covers it sufficiently.
  • I only up-vote competing answers when I believe that they are strictly better than mine.

In combination, these two guidelines seldomly put me into a position where I'm undecided what to do. The following three cases might cause me to have an answer with competing good answers but none of them is a dilemma to resolve.

  1. The question is brand new (not answered yet) and the solution is very short and obvious. It might happen that similar answer appear while I am typing.
  2. There are already good existing answers but I feel they are all missing a certain point.
  3. A good answer appears at a later point in time after I have already posted mine.

I rarely run into these situations, though.

For (1), I try to be a good citizen and search for duplicates before posting an answer. If I cannot find one after some time and the question is still unanswered, it won't be that hot any more and the chance of a racing answer appearing while I'm typing mine is low. If it does happen or the question seems very unlikely to have an existing duplicate (so I'm skipping the search), I don't vote (after all, the other answer isn't any better than mine) and walk on. These trivial questions aren't that important anyway. Actually, I try to avoid them in the first place when possible.

For (2) I'm usually not having problems deciding what to do either. If I feel that the point that is missing from the existing answers is essential, then its omission is a clear flaw and justifies my answer to be better, so I have no reason to up-vote the others. On the other hand, if I'm only adding a niche-point (which I usually indicate in the first sentence of my answer), then I don't want my answer to become the accepted one as I know it is not the most relevant one but only a nice addition. Therefore, I have no problems up-voting other answers in this case.

If (3) happens, there are two scenarios. If the new answer is truly better than mine, I acknowledge it and up-vote it. If it is only good but not better than mine, I don't think it deserves an up-vote from me. After all, my own answer was already there and answers the question at least as good. So why did the other person post their answer in the first place? I'm not using my votes to reward the effort of typing posts if they don't contribute anything significant.

2

Is there a way to incentivize people to avoid gamesmanship? Should this be a concern? Or an accepted feature?

Yes, there are ways. What you would have to do is make gaining rep less relevant. There are many possible means to achieve that. The easiest would probably be to have an option or use/create a user script that print the rep smaller or does not display it at all.

However, it should only be a concern if it influences many users negatively. Not sure if this is the case yet. So far, the advantages of the gamification of StackExchanges still seem to outweigh any adversial effects. Anyway it is not sure, which alternative is proposed here exactly??

In the end, the best advice is: make yourself free of virtual internet points. Only take the good effects of gamification with you and ignore the rest.

1

but I will when a question/answer exceeds a pretty high threshold of uselessness

Hard to define that threshold without a assuming personally opinionated suspicion needs to be stated.

However, I find it disturbing that I start to game my votes. For example, I often find other answers useful on questions that I have provided an answer.

Well, there's nothing hindering you to up or downvote concurrent answers on a question. Just make yourself innocent regarding being informed about When is it justifiable to downvote a question? (extrapolate for voting answers).


I think I don't get right what you're asking in your title and explain in your post regarding Gamesmanship.

Well, everything here is gaming about reputation points and badges.

There's some behavior observed frequently aka Rep Whoring, and there are also frequent debates, if such posts should be downvoted.

You may consider tactical voting to get/keep your own posts on top, but that's also mostly debatable (unless made it clearly superior to other answers).

-2

I don't think the chances of an answer being selected is significantly affected by upvotes. The original asker has taken the trouble to write a question that you found intelligible enough to answer; he's likely to take the effort of reading all the answers to select the one which helps him the most.

I also think that upvoting others' answers will make them more likely to upvote yours; some have noted the Sportmanship badge, but I'll note that other answerers can only make progress toward the Sportsmanship badge if their answers are also upvoted.

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