37

AFAIK we have both a behavioural rule (https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior), quote:

Do not use signature, taglines, or greetings.

Every post you make is already “signed” with your standard user card, which links directly back to your user page. If you use an additional signature or tagline, it will be removed to reduce noise in the questions and answers.

and a meta consensus about salutations (Should 'Hi', 'thanks', taglines, and salutations be removed from posts?). I understand that there are situations where you can nicely fit some greetings to compose with the Q/A without explicitly fluffing it (as saying "I'd be grateful if someone could explain me why it doesn't work." - it's still kind-of fluffy, but not as directly as "Explain to me why it doesn't work. Thank you for your answers!") - still, AFAIK, adding a one-liner after each-and-every Q/A is just, by definition, fluff to be removed.

OTOH, we have a user (namely https://stackoverflow.com/users/501557/templatetypedef), who contributed about 3000 Q&A, essentially almost all of which are followed by either

Hope this helps!

(for answers)

or

Thanks so much!

(for questions).

As per what Jon Skeet has said - I choose a world where strangers try to convey information rather than impersonal greetings (they're not really saying "Hi" to me); those greetings/salutations above are mechanically added by the author after almost each and every post. For me, that constitutes both fluff & noise.

I've seen that in some cases (https://stackoverflow.com/posts/4589622/revisions) there have been some attempts (e.g. by https://stackoverflow.com/users/560648/lightness-races-in-orbit) to make his (templatetypedef's) answers/questions adhere to the consensus. Overall, it's still:

  • about 3000 posts (some of them with very high view counts) needlessly fluffed,
  • a high-rep user who breaks the rules/consensus willfully.

I believe in community, in meta discussion and in democratic consensus. I think that on SO nobody should be "more equal than equal"* and exempt from the rules (soft and/or hard) every regular user should/must adhere to.

Note 1: I've commented to him and edited those salutations manually for a couple of his top posts - he ignored the comments and reverted all the edits. Note that e.g. LRIO's edits weren't removed.

Note 2: I wouldn't have raised this problem at all if not the fact it's about >100k rep user. Such a user makes an example - other people (e.g. newbies) will often follow him.

Note 3: quote from https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/267387/719662 for those who responded that "removing salutations/fluff" is "harassing and/or abusing a user":

"Thanks" is just noise. An edit that is removing it is an edit that is removing noise, which is a good thing. (...) It's certainly not abusive.

*Jon Skeet doesn't count

55
  • 22
    @πάνταῥεῖ so you're basically saying "he can write whatever he wants, regardless if it's OK with the rules and site's consensus"?
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:06
  • 64
    Well, there's a choice to make: 1) Do nothing and live with taglines that annoy a small minority of users. 2) Warn/Suspend/Ban the 100k user - possibly resulting in a rage-quit and loss off a great contributor. Personally, I think the choice is pretty easy. We're not talking about someone who repeatedly attacks another user. It's just a stupid tagline.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:07
  • 62
    @Mystical if a contributor ignores the site's rules and consensus, he's by no definition "great". Making exceptions to the rules just to not annoy a good user is IMO what elitism is all about. If he's a smart person, the warning should work. I'm against bans/suspensions for soft (community) rules, but breaking them makes a person work against the community, not for it. If someone rage-quits just because he's told to adhere to the community consensus, his place is on self-hosted blog, not a community site.
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:09
  • 37
    Although I'm a low rep / low frequentation user, and even though I fully understand and absolutely back up the idea of "information over fluff" as a primary driver for SO, I feel that the line that delineates the start of fluff does not need to be autistically enforced under such circumstances : if the user has such high rep, it's because he's flooded the place with useful content. Under those conditions, finishing a large post of heavy payload with one line polite greeting is no fluff ; it's rather the glue that holds unrelated human beings together, and I very much appreciate reading one. Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:14
  • 38
    If a user is rolling back appropriate edits you should flag the post for mod attention and explain the situation.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:15
  • 17
    @FrédéricHamidi for me, it's not about forcing him to edit them (although it's not true that'd have taken years - that could've been done in minutes by a database script) - it's about him not reverting those changes and understanding the consensus; also, it's about "should we make exception to the site-wide rules for high-rep users?"
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:16
  • 9
    @vaxquis In all honesty whenever you have a problem that you need a mod to look at you should flag the post rather than creating a meta post. That's the appropriate way to get a moderator's attention for a problem with a post.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:19
  • 12
    @vaxquis: in case it's not obvious, can you hold off editing any more of this users posts until this is resolved on meta. I'm not taking anyone's side with this request, I just want to end the edit -> revert wars that are going on between the two of you at the moment.
    – Matt Mod
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:20
  • 19
    For what it's worth, the rule about tag lines isn't just a Meta consensus, it's in the rules in the help center: What kind of behavior is expected of users?
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:25
  • 53
    I've always felt the rule against salutations and thanks was a bit exaggerated. Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:38
  • 12
    @S.L.Barth the rule has been made by the people, for the people - if it's "exaggerated", it's so intentionally, to be a benefit to the community, not a nuisance. I'm not arguing with the rule here - it may be right, it may be wrong - I'm trying to know should high-rep users be exempt from the rules - and, if so, *on what grounds*.
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:45
  • 11
    These signatures don't do any harm. how'bout you just leave the heck alone poor templatetypedef? Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 9:30
  • 10
    @vaxquis, as Shog9 said: "stop going after individuals because you don't like something they wrote" and do not "Direct link to a user's profile". Your meta question is important, but public linking the user was a horrible ideia. It would be enough to explain the problem only giving numbers and quote examples without links.
    – Zanon
    Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 9:48
  • 16
    Why is this even a thing? More time and bytes have been spent in this meta post then it has taken to write/store the phrase Hope this helps! 2802 times.
    – robbmj
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 0:08
  • 18
    Lol this is absolutely ridiculous. I truly can't believe what this community is becoming. Insert picture of Dolores Umbridge
    – Epic Byte
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 3:04

3 Answers 3

101

Users are never above the rules and guidelines, whatever their reputation (or status).

To be blunt, this could have been handled better by both parties:

  1. You could have brought to the attention of a moderator sooner, rather than targeting templatetypedef and taking it upon yourself to edit his posts, causing the issue to escalate to what it has become.
  2. templatetypedef could have responded to your comments in the first place, and this could have been resolved more amicably.

... but those are lessons for another day, and what's happened has happened.

I've asked the user to stop using signatures going forward. I'm also asking you (and everyone else) to avoid hunting out all answers ever posted by this user, and editing out the signatures. Not least because he gets a notification for each post you edit, but also because this isn't a witch hunt.

19
  • 92
    -1 because you didn't open with "Hi,". Other than that, good answer
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:58
  • I got temped to add that "Hi!", but I figured I should've been smarted than to edit mod's posts chuckle
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:59
  • 14
    GEOCHET, you're a real fun killer... that was, like, a friday joke, on meta duuuuh can someone revert it?
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:03
  • 17
    @vaxquis the fun will begin when matt rolls it back
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:04
  • I didn't remove it because it was a tagline, I removed it because it was lame.
    – GEOCHET
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:05
  • 50
    News just in: What to do when a moderator is willingly breaking site rules/meta consensus?
    – Matt Mod
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:06
  • 2
    So in the end the fluff stays in his answers (because you've explicitly asked us not to remove it)? That seems wrong. Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 17:40
  • 27
    @GaneshSittampalam: No, he asked us not to hunt those down. If you come across them organically though, go ahead. Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 17:55
  • 3
    As a commentor says above, with 20 plusses, "I've always felt the rule against salutations and thanks was a bit exaggerated". It's really that simple. As for this answer, it says "edit but don't edit". So ...
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 13:00
  • 12
    @JoeBlow Yes, 20 people expressed that they feel the rule is exaggerated. Yet, unless you know how many people don't feel that way, you can't evoke anything from that number. I assume from the linked meta discussion that most of the people don't feel that way - otherwise there wouldn't be any way for the rule to get about +700 rating. On the other hand, I can say that 26 people expressed disagreement with your stance, while 2 people agreed - and that is statistically relevant. Also, this answer doesn't say "edit, but don't edit" - it clearly says "edit, but don't hunt".
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 13:24
  • 3
    If I'm not mistaken the two highest-pluss'd comments above are "it's just a stupid tagline" and "...was a bit exaggerated". Regarding "edit but don't hunt", the "hunt" language is just a wiggle word. If the text in question on the user's posts in question is "wrong", then someone click to edit it away from every post. Could not be a simpler situation. Of course, everyone here realises the rule is so incredibly silly you wouldn't expect children to follow it, and both the answers here are just non-answers which say: "oh, forget about it" with wiggle language.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 13:35
  • 9
    @Joe Blow: Wait a second, speak for yourself. You do not have the knowledge about everyone. When I began reading the question, I was seriously interested in whether it is strongly enforced or not. I don't consider it to be silly. Don't ever go like "everyone shares my opinion anyway", it doesn't work. Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 12:29
  • 1
    @JoeBlow you're mistaken. Tho highest-pluss'd comments above are meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/301016/… & meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/301016/… (well, frankly it's meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/301016/… chuckle)
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 14:57
  • 1
    @Deduplicator: I think they shouldn't even be edited if you come across them. They're old answers, and the edit is too minor. No need to bump the posts. Edit greetings out of active posts that need to be improved anyway.
    – Bergi
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 16:41
  • 1
    @Bergi: Iff one comes across it organically, the post is still "active" as in "actively used", though that diminishes with low views and/or low votes. Still, I would only do an edit doing nothing but removing fluff even under those circumstances if 1. it was overwhelming, or 2. nobody has to review it and I did more worthwhile edits on other posts of the same question, or 3. I had a good reason to comment on that post and also did that. I think that's a reasonable guideline. Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 17:41
10

As @Mystical said, it's probably not worth the hassle to "correct" high-rep users who are going against the (maybe in their eyes silly) rules, as they'll probably leave and deprive the site of their valuable input.

If they've left thousands of posts with a tagline and actively roll back edits in which those taglines are removed, then please, let them be the first world anarchist they want to be seen as.

First World Anarchy

And no, I'm not serious. Every user should be held to the same standards. If they're going to leave because they can't say "Hope this helps" after every answer, then it's their loss.

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  • 13
    now I'm puzzled... I can't figure where the irony starts and where it stops.
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:50
  • 6
    @vax come on, it's friday. My stance is "Every user should be held to the same standards".
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:50
  • 7
    @CodeCaster if that's the case, may I kindly suggest a slight rewording of your answer, removing most of the irony, since otherwise a) it's hard to understand, b) it may receive erratic votes (as was a case with me).
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:54
  • 13
    I've heard from at least one moderator that when dealing with high-rep users, it's becomes a trade-off on whether it's "worth the hassle" to keep the user in exchange for all the users contributions. This means that there's inherent bias toward high-rep users and major contributors. I'm aware of at least one other major C++ contributor who has left SO after two suspensions over taglines. Sure the person didn't have a perfect personality, but I found his contributions very valuable and was sad to see him go. I would hate to see a repeat of that here.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 14:56
  • 4
    @Mystical since it was neither Jon nor Eric, I think the universe will manage chuckle
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:09
  • 3
    @vaxquis those are the C# heroes, not C++ (at least not on SO). ;) Anyway I don't really want to rewrite my answer. I think it's really petty to want to either be allowed to add "Hope this helps" or otherwise leave the site, and I'm sure the guy who we're talking about here is mature enough to decide otherwise.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:10
  • 11
    This principle applies pretty much any time someone has a high volume of mostly-useful contributions, @Mysticial, regardless of rep. See also the rules about self-promotion: folks tend to get far less upset if someone with lots of good answers throws a link to their blog in than they do when someone posts nothing but links to their site. Cheers & hth.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:31
  • @Shog9 I figured you'd know exactly who I was talking about... (Edit: Looks like he came back. But not nearly as active as before.)
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 15:49
  • 3
    The picture here is perfect.
    – Epic Byte
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 3:12
-44

"What to do when a high-rep user is willfully breaking site rules/meta consensus?"

1) the rule is silly

2) the salient point is: "site meta consensus" of pro-sumption sites like this is, simply, formed by very-high-rep users, such as the user in question.

So, it looks like 1x very-high-rep user is ignoring the ridiculous "don't say thanks" rule. Let's say that ten or a dozen very-high-rep users were ignoring the "don't say thanks" rule.

In that case, the supposed "meta consensus" you refer to would be quite different.

Don't forget that the entire point of this pro-sumption dotcom business is to make money for the founders. Rules and "meta consensuses" change over time based on what - ultimately - most achieves that goal. Maybe there's a trend starting to throw in a bit of politeness and that will become a norm.

Looked at another way, what you're essentially saying here, OP, is: "Hmm, I really like the 'no thanks notes' guideline from the old days ... I've noticed one or two high-rep users are moving the site away from that. Shame, because I like that guideline..."

Once again, if the site had 2, 3 and then 10 such very-high-rep users who were moving against this social norm ........... it wouldn't be a social norm anymore.

Thus to restate ... "Such a user makes an example - other people (e.g. newbies) will often follow him or her." ... well yes, of course. That's what social norms are. You're essentially just saying "you don't like his style" and you want newbies to follow "the style of people you do like".

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  • 24
    The linked meta post has >+650 for the top answer affirming the general consensus. If you don't agree, you have the ability to vote it down. The meta site isn't only for high-rep users.
    – mbomb007
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 20:05
  • 3
    Why? One could easily assert that a few weenies discuss things on these "meta" sites.... "so what"? As I mention above: as a thought experiment, imagine if 1, 2 then 20 very high rep users started adding "polite sign-offs" to posts. And say it became a social norm. In that case the existence of anything, one way or another, on the "meta" site would mean ... what? Nothing.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 20:09
  • 7
    From the Help Center: What kind of behavior is expected of users?
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 20:28
  • 8
    1. People are supposed to follow rules regardless of their opinions about said rules. Their alternatives are to campaign for a change in the rules, or break the rules and deal with the consequences. 2. If consensus were different, this user wouldn't be going against consensus, so that means he's not going against consensus, and therefore his style that no one else follows should be adopted as consensus? What? Commented Aug 7, 2015 at 22:51
  • 18
    I'm far from a very high rep user and feel I'm part of the consensus on such rules. Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 9:44
  • 6
    "if the site had 2, 3 and then 10 such very-high-rep users who were moving against this social norm" no... not at all actually. They would just get buried under the hundreds of us low rep which have had a critical thought about it, and reflected that saying thanks and please is useless. High rep still have 20 edit reviews per day. They can't really change the way edits remove thanks and please from posts. Commented Aug 8, 2015 at 10:06
  • 9
    Hi. I have read your input, and disagree with it. Hope that helps! Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 0:49
  • 8
    So by this metric, because many users bad off-topic questions every day, we should accept that as the new social norm? Just because people do not follow the rules does not mean that the rules are then invalid.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 0:51
  • 2
    Hi Tiny - yes, that's exactly correct. You've made it sound "strange" - but look at it this way: An example is the possibly absurd rule about "not recommending packages". As you probably know on SO, many questions lean through this concept: the rule probably existed to stop tedious product recommendations; but in much of ios/android development it's "all about" which package you use for some problem (ranging from cocoapods to networking libraries - whatever). People flaunt this "silly rule" continually: in time, the silly rule will be revised...
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 11:33
  • 2
    ..in that example, just as the "law" in the "real" word is a living thing, the example rule in question will eventually be revised (perhaps, let's say, to something more along the lines of "no questions that purely seek product recommendations, although of course it's ok to speak about common packges" .. or whatever works). So while you make it sound "silly" in the way you phrase it, Tiny, it is, quite simply, exactly how the overall system works.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 11:35
  • 18
    Hi people please stop voting to delete content you disagree with. In fact having dissenting opinions available is valuable. Also, this post directly answers the question - 'nuff said.
    – Ben
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 12:09
  • 3
    Hi Vax. Really neither of those concepts apply here. S.O. is a business started by some people, the owners, to make money to buy diapers and bread. That's all it is. They own it and can do anything they like with it. As it happens, the business model is a "pro-sumption" one, to use the usual Toffleresque term: the "consumers" actually "produce" the content. (Just like many of the large dotcoms of our day.) Given that, pro-sumption sites always offer the users (/producers) a kind of vibe that they! get to make the rules themselves.....
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 19:44
  • 2
    .... (by a kind of consensus, voting, admin privileges, Verified Purchase Review, or whatever.) The question of whether or not it is actually " GOOD " to add sign-offs on posts, is a kind of third-order question at best. ("Good" in what sense? in the actual purpose of the business, ie, Make Money for the owners? "Good" in the sense of "societal good"? Who knows. We can't even answer questions like 'should it be free to download led zepplin'.) The "democratic fallacy" {as an aside, if you think you've solved all the philosophical issues surrounding that, that's cute) is not so much...
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 19:48
  • 3
    ...irrelevant here as just "totally irrelevant here". You might as well talk about such issues in relation to social norms that pervade gameplay in popular RPGs. Indeed, you might as well talk about that because it's an identical situation - ! OF COURSE all you have to go on is popular motions and behaviours. If almost every single user felt (unlike yourself) that sign-offs were a good thing, the site owners would (one assumes) go with that, on the basis of supporting the overall (rather comic, really) "make pro-sumption content creators feel they have control!" vibe. What else is there?
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 19:51
  • 1
    I don't really follow you, but cheers for now.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 9, 2015 at 23:58

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