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When I answer product-specific questions, I include links to better resources for those products -- especially but not limited to help sites provided by the product supplier/vendor/producer.

Tonight, TheEvilPenguin (his choice of name, not mine) followed me through several such responses, and wiped those links out, calling them "other site advertisements". I resent the implication.

Further, I inserted whitespace in several questions, which increases readability and comprehensibility, as is well documented by years of graphic design research. This whitespace was also removed, without explanation. I very much disagree with this.

I find no way to send a message to TheEvilPenguin to ask him why he's doing this; only this meta-space is available...

So I ask...

Who watches the watchers?

Update 1

Additionally, in response to this question's previous wording, I have been informed that StackOverflow is for "questions and answers about programming problems."

While that may be (or have been) the intent, and may once have been the focus, of this site -- I see a much broader range of questions in practice. It may be that many don't notice the product-specific questions, because they're watching for questions on their language of choice -- and that's fine -- but it leaves the product-specific questioners at sea.

Further, if this site really is for "programming problems" then it seems to me that questioners asking about different subjects (including but not limited to configuration and use of various software products) should indeed be pointed elsewhere... and again I'm left wondering why I've been spanked for doing so.

Update 2

OpenLink staff, including but not limited to Virtuoso developers, are more active on our "home" sites than elsewhere -- and we (not necessarily me) are usually the best source for the product-specific answers sought. To analogize, asking random drivers how to switch your car from 2 to 4 wheel drive might eventually get you the right answer, but if you can speak with the people who made it, you'll usually get much more relevant and accurate guidance.

As to putting explicit instructions into all Answers, I have to wonder whether folks here have ever maintained software docs? Because software changes, these are moving targets, and the more places you post your docs, the more places you have to edit when changes are necessary -- and the more external sites the docs get echoed to, the more likely some will be missed, potentially leading to major issues for the user. For this reason among others, I believe that "the right thing" for the users, of this site and otherwise, is to link to the authoritative docs.

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    "Who watches the watchers?" Why, the mods, of course. Unfortunately I never read or watched The Watchmen, so I can't insert some clever reference in here...someone else will have to do it for me.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 4:47
  • 6
    "Who watches the watchers" goes back to the Roman Empire, @Cupcake, although you could certainly also content yourself with a Star Trek episode.
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 6:08
  • @JoshCaswell Star Trek? I hope that was a joke, otherwise, I might have to revoke your geek badge :) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 6:10
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    @Cupcake: en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Who_Watches_The_Watchers_(episode) You don't like Star Trek and we're talking about my geek badge?! We're different strands of geek, I guess. :)
    – jscs
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 6:17
  • 4
    You never really say why the alternatives are better in the special cases of the questions in question. A simple "you may find ... more suitable" is just too vague and really sounds like unwanted advertisement. Consider putting it in a comment instead. :) Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:40
  • 2
    @Cupcake: here is something useful :) "Users will look up to us [the mods], and shout 'Save us!' And we will look down and whisper, 'No.'"
    – Jongware
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 19:00
  • 2
    @TallTed I do apologise if you felt targetted. To provide some insight into my thought process, I found some suggested edits adding shortened URLs from you in the review queue, which I voted to reject due to the aversion to shorteners here. I noticed some had gone through, so reverted them. After that I noticed the header you add to answers and comments, and honestly felt it wasn't in the spirit of SO - building a database of questions and answers for future reference. I do think I should have been more communicative, but I was under some time pressure yesterday. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 22:14
  • 7
    Sorry, but the answers you reference were inappropriate here. The goal of SO is to provide answers here, not links to other sites that contain them. If you provide the relevant answer here sufficiently, and then post a site-specific link for additional information, that's great. If your sole answer is "Go to <some offsite link> to read our docs", then your answer is inappropriate; it should be a comment to the question instead. Posting off-site links is meaningless if the off-site location is unavailable for some reason.
    – Ken White
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 22:19

5 Answers 5

30

Your recent answers probably looked overly promotional in nature to the other user, especially since you didn't disclose your affiliation with OpenLink Software:

Screenshot

Examples

Include Java cartridge in Virtuoso Sponger

Questions specifically regarding Virtuoso are generally best raised on the public OpenLink Discussion Forums, the Virtuoso Users mailing list, or through a confidential Support Case.

That said, you may find the answer you seek in the Sponger Cartridge Programmer's Guide. For your particular project, you may find the Virtuoso Developers mailing list more suitable than the Users list linked above.

Then there's this one,

Error in installing Virtuoso Conductor on CentOS

Questions specifically regarding Virtuoso are generally best raised on the public OpenLink Discussion Forums, the Virtuoso Users mailing list, or through a confidential Support Case.

That said... You report you "installed the latest version of Virtuoso using yum" -- but what version did you actually get? We provide a CentOS-specific guide which may now be outdated if someone has produced a yum package -- but that package may also be outdated.

Please check the version you have actually installed, and be sure it is at least 6.1.8 (if Virtuoso v6) or 7.1 (if Virtuoso v7). If not, I would suggest a clean rebuild/reinstall, following our instructions, based on the latest source from GitHub.

Here's another,

Shell select data with SPARQL and upload to virtuoso

Questions specifically regarding Virtuoso are generally best raised on the public OpenLink Discussion Forums, the Virtuoso Users mailing list, or through a confidential Support Case.

That said, I think that as in this other question (do I sense homework?) -- your call to ld_dir() is likely not to have the correct arguments to produce your desired data load.

Here are even more that follow the same "Questions specifically regarding Virtuoso are generally best raised on the public OpenLink Discussion Forums" boiler plate,

and the list goes on...

Stack Overflow doesn't like overly self-promotional posts, but were these legit?

I haven't closely read the questions and answers, so I personally can't judge whether or not your answers were indeed appropriate responses to them. However, speaking generally, Stack Overflow users highly discourage and frown upon overly self-promotional posts, particularly undisclosed ones:

Try to resolve the situation with the other user first

Try @commenting the other user to ask why he's editing out your links in your posts:

Hi @user, I've noticed that you've been editing out my links, can you please explain why?

You can then try engaging in a constructive, productive, polite conversation to explain your situation.

If all else fails, call the police

If trying to discuss the matter in a civil fashion with the other user doesn't work out, then as Michael points out in his answer, if you feel like another user is being hostile and treating you unfairly, you can flag one of your affected posts for moderator attention using the Other option, and explain the situation in detail.

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    From what I can see, Virtuoso is a product made by OpenLink. I don't see how "You should ask about X's product on X's support forum or support ticket site" could possibly be taken as promoting X, in a question about that product. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:16
  • @BenAaronson as I said, I haven't closely read the questions and answers, I'm only pointing out a possible reason why this other user is claiming that the original poster is "advertising" on Stack Overflow. I'm not making a claim that this is indeed a case of inappropriate over self-promotion.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:18
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    I mean, I guess that's useful, but maybe you should make it clearer that it's a really stupid reason. It'd be like editing out any link to msdn documentation from any of Eric Lippert's answers where he didn't "disclose" that he worked for Microsoft. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:19
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    When I recommend my employer's products as solutions to questions where those products haven't yet been mentioned, I explicitly say I work there. When people ask questions about my employer's products, they've already got the product in place, and they want help with it, which is generally provided faster and more accurately through my employer's support pages/sites. I didn't think it was necessary to say "I work there" in such case, but I can start doing so if that would stop the radical edits. Many edits without any conversation strikes me as unfriendly, and that's where this started.
    – TallTed
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:21
  • (I also thought that disclosing my affiliation through my user profile was sufficient, as it has been elsewhere. The other user who edited all my answers discloses nothing except his city -- which leaves me with many questions, indeed.)
    – TallTed
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:23
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    @TallTed: To be honest, we really don't need your public service announcement on every answer you post.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:23
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    @TallTed: Maybe put it in the Virtuoso tag wiki. If the question were "what is the best place to post inquiries about Virtuoso (which would get closed, since it's off-topic), then your public service announcement would be the proper answer. But it isn't, and it's not.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:31
  • 2
    @TallTed, just disclosing in the profile is not enough. Did you read What behavior is expected of users?
    – brasofilo
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:45
  • 2
    @brasofilo Ben actually made a good point, disclosure doesn't seem as necessary in this case...though I wonder what other users do? I've seen Atlassian folks answer questions about Atlassian SourceTree, but I don't remember if they ever disclosed their affiliation when they did.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 5:48
  • 1
    @BenAaronson I don't think that's a fair comparison. I've never seen, and feel free to link me to an example if I'm incorrect, Eric Lippert start out any answer with "This question would be better suited for social.msdn.com". Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:29
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    @LeonNewswanger It was a bit of an exaggerated analogy for effect. He hasn't (as far as I know) ever suggested an msdn forum, but he has (I'm almost certain) linked to msdn documentation, which is similar. I'd also say your example isn't very accurate either, perhaps even less than mine. There's a difference between social.msdn.com, which as I understand it is a general forum, and a support forum/ticketing site. Though may be correct that the tag wiki is a more appropriate place for this information Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:12
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    The net result of all this will be many fewer Answers from me (and so, many more unanswered Questions, as in my experience, questioners rarely post answers to their own questions, and even more rarely accept them). No skin off my nose. shrugs
    – TallTed
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 16:49
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    To clarify my above, as it seems to have been misconstrued -- I will provide fewer Answers and more Comments. Comments don't reflect on karma (which is its own meta topic I don't have time or energy to argue today), but karma's not my focus. I don't think this pattern serves anyone, but I don't generally waste my time fighting a dominant culture when my goal is helping people therein.
    – TallTed
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 17:48
  • 3
    I think it would be sufficient to try and answer the question first, and then as a footnote direct them to the support forum. This makes it seem less promotional. Also, if they intend to use the support forum ask them kindly to post the solution on SO for future reference.
    – Matt K
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 21:49
  • 1
    As someone who has a question in this area, I'm saddened that the community has been so ready to apply the letter, rather than the spirit of the law in this case. I'd rather see people engaging in a altruistic behaviours, and it seems natural to encourage members of organised development teams to drop in and help out here from time to time. If that includes some well rehearsed suggestions to look at resources hosted elsewhere, then that's no bad thing - the important thing is to encourage specific, actionable advice here - and the response above, I fear has done the opposite :( Commented Apr 20, 2016 at 16:32
23

I scanned through a few of your recent answers, and encountered a few that underwent the edits you mention. Since I hope that you asked this to get very open feedback: I don't think TheEvilPenguin was all that evil. The pointer to the company support web site looked like a repetitive banner, and the links were not selectively targeting specific questions.

The way I look at it, if you post answers on this site, your primary goal must be to provide help on this site. This means that your solutions should be part of the answer. This is not a software support site. It's a repository of questions and answers about programming problems. The goal is not to redirect users to different sites, even if the other site might be more efficient at helping some of the posters.

Your answers that I quickly read were somewhat of a mixed bag, in my opinion. I certainly saw a few where you provided legitimate in depth technical information that addressed the question. Others looked more like comments. And some were really borderline link-only, e.g. this one:

Load Freebase full dump file to Virtuoso

You have a possible conflict of interest posting on a web site like this one about products you represent. I don't think there are clear and easy rules on what exactly you should or should not post. At the end of the day, you'll have to be very honest with yourself. When you post here, your goal must be to help the users of this site, with information that is directly part of your posts. If you ever catch yourself putting the interests of your employer ahead of this goal, you're moving in the wrong direction. I think it's perfectly doable if you apply good judgment. The fact that you asked here shows that you care and want to do "the right thing".

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  • Previous comments moved into question.
    – TallTed
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 18:36
7

Having been in the same situation as @TallTed, I feel for him.

The spirit of the law should be that you're not promoting your own (company's) products. At least without full disclosure.

In this case, @TallTed isn't saying "Buy XXX software - it does exactly what you want and I've had a great experience using it" - THAT would indeed be promotion. Instead, in response to specific questions about the software, he's saying "There's another site that you may not be aware of that may well have the answers you need". How is that promotion?

As to @Reto's answer, yes, ideally you should answer the OP's question on this site. But if that basically means cut 'n' pasting an answer from another site, then how is that more beneficial than sending the user to that other site?

"The goal is not to redirect users to different sites, even if the other site might be more efficient at helping some of the posters." (from @Reto's answer)

The goal is to provide answers to questions. In many (most) cases, that means providing an answer in situ. But if directing a user to an external site is more helpful to that user, why do you consider it a bad thing?

FWIW, when I've been in @TallTed's shoes (on other websites), I have prefaced my response with something like "(disclaimer: I work for XXX Software, so I may be biased)".

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    It's not a problem to include links in the answer but directing people offsite as the meat of the answer is bad because the offsite content changes: Companies come up with new products and just remove old product pages. Random structural changes in corporate sites are also very commonplace. Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 12:31
  • Not to mention different software versions and backwards-compatibility. If for example someone is maintaining an outdated site with jQuery 1.2.6 or built to support IE6, over time they are more and more likely to find Stack Overflow answers than official resources, as the latter tend to die out.
    – Boaz
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 15:05
  • @jku: Sure, offsite content changes, but I would think there is more likelihood that the site which developed the software will include more information than we ever could - including for older versions. Perhaps the link to an external site will become outdated, but the basic information ("There is external site X which has information about their own products") is still there in the SO answer.
    – roryhewitt
    Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 15:30
  • @Boaz: Really? I've found the opposite to be true - added to which, you're less likely to get the snarky "Why are you still using such an old version?" answers I see here on SO. I love SO, and have gotten many useful answers here, but we should EMBRACE other sites, rather than try to 'beat' them (I'm not syaing that's what you're saying, but you get my point...)
    – roryhewitt
    Commented Jul 7, 2014 at 15:33
5

To answer your question in a very literal fashion, and borrowing from Cupcake's comment:

I find no way to send a message to [other user] to ask him why he's doing this

That's by design. Stack Overflow takes a pretty active approach to moderation. The messages you're envisioning, they would be unceasing.

Who watches the watchers?

Stack Overflow's moderators. If you feel that another user is treating you unjustly, raise a flag. flag -> other (needs ♦ moderator attention).

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5

Looking at this edit, I don't think the issue had anything to do with self-promotional links.

Rather, it must have had to do with using URL shorteners, which are generally not welcome.

As for the white spaces, it was mainly a matter of replacing <br /> with an empty line, which might be a preferred way to create paragraphs with Markdown.

I don't personally mind you not revealing whether or not you work for OpenLink, as long as the answer is on-topic and doesn't try to promote a product. (Here, of course, the product was already used, so there was little point promoting it.)

However, the boiler plate effect of "Questions specifically regarding Virtuoso are generally best raised [...]" doesn't feel like it belongs to most of these answers. It's at best a comment, or if you insist maybe at the bottom of your answer using <sub>...</sub> perhaps. This being said, this is rarely required anyway. Whether you like it or not, a lot of programmers use StackOverflow and will seek help here regardless of what your company would prefer. You might as well embrace it. If needed, make it clear on your site that your prefer questions to be asked there instead of here. In addition, those pointers to other support channels are definitely worth putting as comments on questions that are not a good fit for SO (discussions, off-topic, too broad, ...).

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