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Discussions are now available within the following collectives:


Today (August 21, 2023), Stack Overflow is launching an experiment with a new subjective content type. Discussions is a space for threaded conversations where users engage in deeper dialogue and share perspectives on technical topics. As with other new content types like Collections, this experiment takes place within Collectives. The initial launch is within the NLP Collective. Below are some details about how the feature works and general notes about the experiment.

Goals and long-term vision

Discussions provide a complementary technical discussion space on the platform. The discussers of today may become the askers and answerers of tomorrow. Conversely, longtime members of the Stack Overflow community whose Q&A contributions may have declined may find a new outlet in Discussions. By expanding the range of contribution options and ways users can seek knowledge, we expand the sustainability of the community.

This companion post from the Stack Overflow research and design teams takes a deeper dive into the user research behind Discussions, and also goes into how the initial guidelines were developed.

As many of you know, Stack Overflow has mainly focused on objective content: questions that can clearly and definitely be answered. Discussions aims to expand upon this with subjective content.

Discussion threads may not have a specific conclusion with an answer that’s right or wrong. Instead, participants can discuss, debate, and explore varying opinions, perspectives, and implementation strategies in order to make more informed technical decisions.

We expect some Discussion threads to only be relevant for a finite duration in time, while others will become long-lasting points of reference. Our goal is for these conversations can be easily accessible and discoverable in both the short and long term.

Feature details

The format is a threaded conversation with an initial post and then replies. One additional level of nested replies are possible; in other words, a reply to a reply can begin a sub-thread. Discussions replies use mini-Markdown, with support for line breaks and list formatting.

Members of a collective can create new Discussions and any registered user can reply to existing Discussions, regardless of reputation. Discussions posts and replies will be visible in a user’s history.

Voting is available on posts and replies, though the votes are not connected to reputation, which is made clear in a sidebar module. Discussions votes are a new type of vote in the database, and they do not count toward the daily vote limit.

Notifications are limited at this time, only going to the original poster and to authors of replies that receive their own direct replies.

Moderation

For this experiment, we’ve built the moderation functionality in a self-contained way within the Discussions feature. Any user with the flagging privilege can flag a Discussions post.

Community Managers will moderate the space. While Stack Overflow moderators will have access to all moderation capabilities in Discussions, there is no expectation for moderator oversight of this new content type. Moderators can take any action on users or content that they feel is necessary; Code of Conduct violations are not viewed any differently for Discussions. A collective’s Recognized Members do not have moderation capabilities in Discussions.

Guidelines

A set of guidelines are in place to keep the conversation focused on relevant technical topics. This initial set of guidelines has been developed based on research with users of varying levels of experience. The guidelines are also part of the experiment, and feedback on these guidelines is encouraged. As we continue refining and developing Discussions, we’ll work together with the community to iterate on guidelines, and the process will be informed by what we learned in the experimental phase.

Looking ahead

After this initial launch within the NLP Collective, at least one additional collective will have the Discussions feature enabled within a few weeks. We will communicate further details about the next Discussions launch as an update to this post.

This experiment is associated with Collectives because it is the current environment for building subcommunities on Stack Overflow. Collectives provide the proper context for the experiment – focus on specific topics – in a somewhat contained space.

The primary objective of the experiment is to see who’s interested in participating and how they end up using the feature. We’ll be looking at both quality and quantity, assessing retention and the effort required to manage the space effectively. A future version of Discussions could potentially look and operate differently based on learnings, feedback and ideas from the community.

Let us know

  1. Do you see Discussions being valuable to you?
  2. How do you think it will impact your experience on Stack Overflow?
  3. What other Collectives would you like to see Discussions launch in?
  4. What would you like to talk about with other users in Discussions?

For those interested in further details about the research behind Discussions, see The user research behind Discussions.

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  • 24
    Can you please rename either this feature, or the existing discussion feature? Having Discussions and Private discussions when the topics are completely unrelated is just not good UX, and it makes it a pain to discuss the features when "Discussions" is ambiguous Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 16:56
  • 42
    (or better yet, axe both of them; chat and meta already exist) Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 16:56
  • 5
    Sounds like Discord, great.
    – takendarkk
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 19:57
  • 13
    Finally :) I'd propose forum.stackoverlfow.com as domain name when it goes site wide public, so people stop treating main site as a forum. (Also for target audience, which is younger, "discord" may be better generic name for forum-like functionality) </joke> Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 21:13
  • 3
    Maybe time to start some separate meta.collectives.stackoverflow.com Sub-Domain / Sub-Meta Site...? Those semi-fake Announcements on 'SO-Meta' about "Collectives" nobody cares about are slowly getting annoying...
    – chivracq
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 2:19
  • 49
    We just finished have a months-long moderation strike to protest the site ownership being utterly disconnected from the community while pushing AI nonsense that nobody wants, and now we're right away getting reinvention of something we already had, in a way that totally ignores established community practice, and spearheading it through the special-cased new site (also ignoring established community practice) made to champion AI nonsense? Seriously?! Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 3:06
  • 6
    @KarlKnechtel i mean, given it's the industry standard name of what it is, probably not.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 3:18
  • 4
    "As with other new content types like Collections, this experiment takes place within Collectives." Why? I do not really understand this. Why not make Discussions available to everyone outside of Collectives? I could use Discussions, but I don't need Collectives. Gluing both together doesn't seem helpful to me. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 9:11
  • 11
    @NoDataDumpNoContribution Probably money. They're adding features to collectives, and only collectives, so companies have an incentive to buy a collective for their thing. If they're adding something with general value and making it available everywhere, they can't sell it Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 14:47
  • 14
    I suspect the entire reason they're launching this is that they have either current or future customers where their existing or new contract hinges on there being a place to discuss subjective stuff, and not because the community wants it Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 14:51
  • 6
    @NoDataDumpNoContribution From this post: "Collectives provide the proper context for the experiment – focus on specific topics – in a somewhat contained space." This is an experiment and a staged release to learn and iterate, which is the best and least disruptive approach. It's helpful as a way to get feedback from the community as well. There are missing features and we hear about what people notice first. We hear from some, like yourself, who would like to see this in wider release, which is good feedback. Others feel concerned, which is also good feedback, and it all helps map things out.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 16:56
  • 5
    "Collectives provide the proper context for the experiment – focus on specific topics – in a somewhat contained space" - translation: tags don't provide enough of an income to count Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 19:42
  • 22
    "There are missing features and we hear about what people notice first" - translation: people with money asked for a feature. There's plenty of features that were asked for long before this one, many with far more public approval, but that haven't been considered for even a second by the company (especially: onboarding) Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 19:59
  • 9
    Why not start by launching this at the one place that needs it the most, and where it is also less disruptive: meta.stackoverflow.com. As been said multiple times before, the Q&A format is horrible for meta, particularly for discussions, it's anti-constructive by design.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 11:58
  • 5
    @tripleee There's a few one-rep users in there already; looks like there's no limits Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 12:05

26 Answers 26

37

Looking at the guidelines, why is there a distinction between discouraged and prohibited? That's probably just gonna result in rule lawyering... it's discouraged to inform users of open positions at a given company, but it's not forbidden? What does discouraged mean when there's no meaningful tools for curation outside of voting and/or escalating to a CM?

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  • 1
    To add to this is the difference that "discouraged" means "off-topic" and the result would mostly be deletion of the respective content and "prohibited" mean it might result in suspensions etc. (i.e. red flag worthy content)? Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 17:45
  • 4
    It's really just that this is a new thing, the guidelines are a first version, and there's likely nuance to all of this that we'll see emerge over time. Whereas the "prohibited" scenario is pretty clear cut and probably a fast track to action beyond just having the post removed. Indeed, the rules lawyers like to set up their law offices in those nuanced gray areas, but that will happen no matter what the wording is.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 17:56
33

My primary concern with using "discussions" for ordinarily meta-related content is fragmentation. Yes, for people who are following the collective and frequently click into discussions and are averse to meta, "discussions" will be more comfortable, but for everyone else who comes across NLP posts in need of curation... anything discussed/agreed upon within "discussions" is going to be far outside of where they generally go for finding this kind of information. On top of that, it's unlikely many of the "meta" discussions that occur there hadn't already occurred at some point in the past on meta so we're still left going to meta and finding it/linking to it... but without the ability of dupe closing, tagging, or the discussion coming up in a search on meta in the future.

I don't see the positive, outside of maybe hiding the discussion from anyone not interested in collectives.

*specifically for meta-related discussions, that is

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  • 2
    Maybe there is a good search functionality within discussions. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 9:14
  • 1
    @NoDataDumpNoContribution and maybe it also comes with improvements to chat, who knows, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .............. /s
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 14:34
27

Since this is essentially a forum feature and as Zoe pointed out you already have something called Private discussions, shouldn't it be simply called a Forum (or Collective's Forum) to avoid confusion?

I noticed that announcements are avoiding that term for no apparent reason. Is it because "forum" is old and boring term, that is not "sexy" enough to sell it to management, or is there some kind of vision in company that contradicts this project being forum that I'm missing?

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  • 11
    Maybe it's because they do, to some tiny extent, actually pay attention to Meta, at least enough to be aware of how constantly people (such as myself) are reminding each other that this is not a discussion forum. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 3:08
  • 4
    For context, private discussions are essentially a private meta for recognised members. It used to be called just "Discussions", but then they decided to launch this, and rebranded old discussions as private discussions for unlimited confusion Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 13:08
  • @KarlKnechtel IKR! I have even seen a person on SO, rather often, with a creative name that goes something like "THIS IS NOT A FORUM!" and I agree so much! Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 17:57
  • 1
    @KarlKnechtel Of course meta posts tagged discussion is a discussion forum. Forum in the general English/Roman sense meaning meeting place. I think a lot of people might be confusing the main site and meta. Or for those who like to argue and say that not even discussion-tagged posts are places for discussion - then what is?
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 11:54
  • 1
    @Lundin my point is that people on the meta sites talk about how the main sites are not supposed to be discussion fora. My theory is that they worried that using the F word for a new feature that appears to be integrated into the main site, would attract that much more ire from the usual suspects. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 14:29
25

Shouldn't Discussions guidelines also include stance on meta-like discussions?

I means since you are positioning this as a "threaded conversations ... on technical topics", meta discussions should be probably discouraged.

Otherwise we'll have a situation where collective is effectively a separate site with its shadow meta and separate curation community consensus, that is not available/obvious to broader community of the rest of the site.

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  • 2
    "a situation where collective is effectively a separate site with its shadow meta and separate curation community consensus, that is not available/obvious to broader community of the rest of the site." That honestly sounds like something the site ownership would actively like to happen. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 3:09
  • 1
    It has "Discouraged ... Discussions about the Stack Overflow experience broadly". Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 15:20
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen, but this wouldn't prevent this from becoming shadow meta for collective.
    – markalex
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 15:22
  • 2
    This is also a response to Kevin B's answer on the same subject. We are definitely not looking to create any kind of shadow/duplicate Meta experience here, and the focus of Discussions is meant to be topical technical conversations. At the same time, there are people highly active in certain tags whose input is valuable but who (whatever their reasons may be) don’t frequent Meta. As part of this experiment it seemed interesting to try a post that was about the collective itself (and by extension, the tags). (1/2)
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 22:23
  • 1
    We’re seeing what people want to talk about and we can evolve accordingly. We may well end up with processes that help route people to the Meta conversations they need to find, and get more people involved in the curation conversations there. (2/2)
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 22:23
  • 1
24

This might be more on the nose than some would like it to be, but this feature smacks of introducing more social media-style features to the Q&A platform which has always had its strengths in Q&A.

Why are we choosing to do this? Why do we, as a Q&A site, require a place to facilitate conversation which is not specifically catered to getting answers to your question?

Adding more social media elements to a site which has never billed itself as social media does not feel like the correct decision to me.

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  • 1
    It looks like an effort to extend the active user base and the community activity on the "public Q&A platform". Posting questions and answers according to the SO quality standards and workings seems too hard for the broad audience / community. Closing questions and downvoting don't help to increase the user base / activity, on the contrary they are deterrents for broad community participation.
    – Wicket
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 16:49
  • 1
    @Wicket ideally the solution to that shouldn’t be shoving users away to a half hidden part of the community.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 17:21
  • 1
    @Wicket: None of this feels experimental. All of this feels like a direct march towards a deliberate direction. If the intent is that this is more experimental than permanent, something needs to be done to shake that perception.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 19:05
  • I think that your comment is good feedback for SO. P.S. The homepage already has the Stack Overflow Labs logo next to the page header. Also, there are several mentions that this stuff is an "experiment".
    – Wicket
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 19:18
  • 4
    @Wicket Obviously, but what's unclear is what it being an experiment actually means. No deadline or endgoals have been set, so from our point of view, it mightaswell be a newly released feature that has no plans of ever going away regardless of feedback. A newly released feature that still needs work isn't an experiment, it's a prematurely released feature.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 19:20
17

As it stands this feature looks half baked. It has no sorting, no search, there's no indicator for last activity at the top level, voting serves no purpose given there's no sorting, no rep, and no removal of posts, what even is the point of this without these features? What will happen to all these posts when the "test" is done?

Did we release it just to test functionality and prove users would click on it, despite that being easily skewed by doing it through meta thus guaranteeing it will receive a lot of engagement because that's what we do here?

4
  • The voting, even if it doesn't result in sorting, can still be a quality indicator. Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 6:33
  • Quality of what? Subjective discussions that’ll be outdated in a month?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 13:18
  • 1
    It's not so different from votes on comments. Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 14:00
  • 1
    @NoDataDumpNoContribution exactly. so just put reactions here. Votes don't belong, having them here only dilutes the meaning of voting further.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 14:47
14

The share button is missing

I'm looking to link to a particular reply which I expect will be buried in other threaded replies at some point. There is no share button or link or anything. There's not even a share link on the question.

I would provide a link here to what I'm talking about but…

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  • 5
    Thanks for calling out this missing function, and very sorry it was frustrating for you. We will look at getting that added.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 21:58
12

Please don't aggregate everything on a single metric in the Discussions Activity scorecard.

Stats

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NLP discussion posts, replies, edits, and votes

The category, volume and weight of the entities are not similar enough to be aggregated together.


Entities

  • Discussion posts
    • Discussions posts might look similar to "questions" because they are "thread" starters. Each thread can only have only one discussion post.
    • This entity should have the highest weight.
  • Replies
    • A single discussion could have none, one or multiple replies.
    • Replies can have none, one or multiple reply-to-replies'.
    • This entity should have a weight less than the weight of Discussions.
  • Edits
    • Discussion posts and replies could have none, one or multiple edits.
    • Edits might be trivial, fix grammar and spelling, add additional details or completely change the discussion posts and reply.
    • This metric should not be compared to Discussion posts, replies, replies to replies and votes.
  • Votes
    • Discussion posts, replies and reply-to-reply might have upvotes and downvotes.
    • This metric should not be compared to Discussion posts, replies, replies to replies, and edits.
5
  • 3
    Indeed, I first disregarded this complaint of yours, the first time I read the post. Only upon revisiting, and re-reading it a total of 5 times did I realize they actually did something as insane as considering a vote equal to a post. I saw the number, and thought: "huh? Activity indicator over 60? I'm on the page of discussions (the list), and I only see 4. This number doesn't reflect anything useful." Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 20:42
  • 4
    yeah but it looks really good, throw in views for good measure
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 20:48
  • 4
    Also, as far as edits, only the owner of the reply or post can edit, so they're not really that interesting as an interaction metric.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 21:05
  • 3
    Not just is the volume of each entity similar enough; their weights are completely different too. A post, as well as a long reply, are very different from a simple vote. Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 23:32
  • 2
    This whole thing feels like a "Hah! you downvoted my meta post, that proves me right!" Anyone who participates there from meta, even from downvoting stupid ideas that don't belong there, are increasing metrics that are going to be abused to indicate it is useful.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 15:02
12

Do you plan to regularly share a data dump of the content, and if so, how often and under what license?

11

Flagging is confusing

...Maybe even for both sides. When I click on the "flag" button I get a browser popup saying "Are you sure you want to flag this discussion?" The discussion isn't spam or abuse (or maybe it is, but it's really subtle in this hypothetical). How will those moderating (i.e., CMs) know why I'm flagging? (Is there actually something after that popup? I assume not, since there would be no reason to have a popup like that then.)

For that matter, if the discussion was spam or abuse, do we have to wait for CMs to be around or is there some type of mechanism to remove that automatically if enough flags are raised, like with normal posts or comments?

I was expecting something more like Collections flagging, which has "spam", "rude", and "other" options — plus an explanation of what should and shouldn't be flagged.

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  • 5
    "How will those moderating (i.e., CMs) know why I'm flagging?" - they'll guess. "Is there actually something after that popup? I assume not, since there would be no reason to have a popup like that then" - no. Also, this is the entire flag "dashboard". Note the lack of any form of reason. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 13:06
  • 5
    "For that matter, if the discussion was spam or abuse, do we have to wait for CMs to be around or is there some type of mechanism to remove that automatically if enough flags are raised, like with normal posts or comments?" - realistically, you'd have to wait for CMs. Without separate categories for red flags, there can't be an auto-removal threshold (at least when the content isn't comments). Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 13:06
  • 2
    I guess this what they meant by "basic", but I didn't think it would be this basic.
    – Laurel
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 13:29
  • 5
    Yeah. I figured there'd be a bare minimum of reasons (i.e. spam, rude, other), and for that to expand when it became clear what flags were needed. Just storing it as, essentially, a boolean is... really bad Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 14:26
10

Skimming the other answers here, it seems like other people have alluded to this, but here's my two cents: I think that Discussions, as currently implemented, have the risk to be harmful to the overall Stack Overflow community because they aren't sufficiently differentiated from the standard Q&A functionality.

Looking at the interface of a top-level Discussion post, it looks a lot like a regular Stack Overflow question: it's got a title, a body, up and down votes, it's tagged like questions, the creator is identified in the same place. And unsurprisingly, people seem to be using Discussions to ask a lot of things which, to my eye, could just as easily be regular Stack Overflow questions.

When new users start to stumble across this new content type which looks exactly like the Stack Overflow questions we're accustomed to but explicitly encourages open-ended discussion in the responses, do we really think it isn't going to encourage them to engage in those same behaviors in the Answers and Comments of other public questions, which look so similar to the untrained eye?

1
  • 2
    Discussions should be clearly marked as such and some guidance should be given as to when a Q&A is preferred and when a discussion is preferred. Maybe there should be the possibility to extract a Q&A from a discussion and refer to it, then close the discussion. Something like an incubator for Q&A. Commented Aug 30, 2023 at 7:03
8

This is similar to a previous answer, but it's not a duplicate.

One of the first discussions is a Meta discussion: Scope/tag change proposals for NLP Collective.

Discussions about "administrative" matters about a collective should "flagged" as off-topic and "migrated" to Stack Overflow Meta to be coherent with the guidance provided about the new Discussion feature; it's instructed to be used about technical matters related to the collective.

Thinking out loud

The following is intended to share a thought, not an actual

Claim

Suppose the scope of the new Discussion feature includes meta-discussions constrained to a specific collective that doesn't affect the overall Stack Overflow workings. In that case, the Discussions feature should have something similar to the Meta-required tags to tag a discussion as "meta," but that should not be mixed with the main site tags, something closer to the SOFT articles than to questions.

Rebuttal
  1. Many users can't differentiate between posting a question in Stack Overflow and posting a question on other online forums; they can't understand that there are many types of online forums, and each might have its norms and workings.

    • There are already some Discussions that should be posted as Stack Overflow questions.
  2. The Collective Discussions are not intended to replace or fragment Meta

Conclusion
  1. The current discussion about NLP Collective tags should be moved back to Meta.

    • Instead of using Collective Discussions to point people to Meta, use one of the other Collective features like Bulletins, Articles or whatever.
    • Having Meta discussions and questions posted as Collective Discussions doesn't help. Staff should quickly delete or "migrate" this kind of post.

Onboarding to Discussions banner

enter image description here

A new space for technical discussions about NLP Share your insights, advice and experience with peers and experts Engage and discuss in threaded post replies

From What is the Discussions feature, and how does it work? The Learn more link on the onboarding to Discussions banner points to this help article.

Discussions is an experimental feature on Stack Overflow, enabled on some collectives. It is a space for threaded conversations where users engage in deeper dialogue and share perspectives on technical topics.

From Discussions guidelines

Content in Discussions should always be related to the topic of the collective that houses it.

0
8

Putting aside the solid points mentioned by other answers, I am only thinking that does Stack Exchange Inc. even take the clauses mentioned in the recent conclusion of the moderation strike seriously?

I mean, I just opened Stack Overflow yesterday and received a notification regarding this "NLP discussions" feature since I am a member of the collective. Really SO? No meta post to discuss the idea? no nothing? I only see this very post appear in my meta feed a few moments after I receive this notification.

Quoting the terms agreed to by Stack Overflow from the conclusion post of the moderation strike:

Stack Exchange, Inc. staff will be as transparent as possible about product development and policy, regularly sharing updates and proposed changes. Releases will be communicated in a timely manner. Whenever possible, staff will provide insights behind key product and policy decisions to the community.

And:

Staff will work with the community when making decisions about product development and policy, taking into consideration community feedback and suggestions while also considering other data points and research. Feedback on releases that substantively impact the user experience will be sought at the earliest possible opportunity, ideally during an initial ideation and requirements gathering phase of work, but absolutely far enough before the release of a “beta” product such that the feedback given can still influence the direction of the tool or change, and be incorporated into the design.

I actually felt happy seeing the recent design vision post, as flawed and lacking the design shown there is, you guys at least managed to ask the community for feedback before taking any action on the site itself. Why not observe the same behavior in this case as well by asking us before launching this beta testing phase?

It would have been really nice if you guys were to at least share this idea and a few "vision" screenshots perhaps before launching a functional beta of this. I suggest you take a look at the terms agreed upon in the strike conclusion every once in a while, perhaps when you are about to launch a drastic update or beta testing. In reality, it benefits Stack Exchange Inc. as well as it benefits the community because they don't have to develop something into existence and have to remove it all after just in case the community does not like it.

Just follow the way you guys did with the design vision, write meta posts containing your idea, and if possible, a visual representation of it, asking the community for feedback, and if they would like it on the site in the first place. Once it's reviewed and approved by the community, proceed with your beta testing in any way you want.

9
  • Also, please excuse and edit if there are some comprehension problems in my answer, I wrote this in a hurry and for some reason my grammarly extension is not working ATM. I'll have it reviewed and edited if I find any comprehension problems myself in a little while once I get off my work. Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 10:13
  • 2
    We’ve kinda known this was coming for a month at least, so it coulda been handled worse
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 13:22
  • @KevinB :/ I only removed the "on strike" from my name a little while ago because I was expecting some more stuff from them... it doesn't matter by now though. Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 15:23
  • 1
    Don't worry, they'll be sharing all the "feedback" they collected to support this shortly. given it wasn't immediately provided, there's no chance it will be curated to primarily include the positives
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 15:25
  • 3
    We remain committed to working with the community when making decisions about product development and policy, but the form that takes can vary depending on the specific project. Discussions is released as an experiment, presented under the “Labs” banner with other development projects that are being tested. There has been an extensive amount of consultative research with various types of users that preceded this initial release of the experiment, detailed in this post. (1/2)
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 19:25
  • 2
    It’s always a tough balance to strike with experiments, alphas, betas and community consultation. Release too early and there’s a risk that the full picture and potential value isn’t clear. The potential value of Discussions is for the broader community of users that don’t necessarily interact on Meta, so in this case, a usable experiment on the public platform is the first stage. (2/2)
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 19:26
  • 5
    It seems kind of odd how, every time this feedback method is used, we end up with... this.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 19:32
  • Can't Grammarly be taught (like on-the-fly word additions in Firefox' spell checker) about Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange (not a rhetorical question)? Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 11:48
  • @PeterMortensen It can only be taught words at best afaik, it doesn't generate them for you. So basically, if I add "warahmatullah" to Grammarly, the next time I write "wahmatullah" it will correct it to its original spelling. That's the most it offers ATM afaik. However, they've announced this new AI-based tool called Grammarly GO that I have yet to try, so I am not sure regarding that. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 12:35
7

Replies formatting

  1. Contrary to what is said in this question, replies don't support full formatting: Headers and quotes aren't supported.
    From this question:

    All components of a discussion have full text formatting capabilities (like questions and answers, rather than comments which are limited to mini-Markdown), though images and tables are not supported in replies.

  2. The error letters are in red. There is not enough contrast when using the dark theme.

  3. The formatting help says that replies use mini-markdown, contradicting what is said in this question.

Add to the discussion showing "Invalid formatting" error

7
  • hmm... Why would replies not have the full suit of markdown formatting, doesn't that heavily hinder the ability to provide a great useful reply? if we're limited to effectively comments...
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 16:41
  • It is weird that this was called out specifically in the post, and yet appears to directly contradict the guidance given under the reply box (which states that "Replies use mini-Markdown formatting").
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 19:54
  • 5
    Thanks for calling this out. Our intentions are to fully support markdown in replies, but as we approached launch day, we needed to cut some scope and decided to utilize the mini-markdown UI element for now. Unfortunately, that late decision didn't get communicated to the CM team, so the documentation (including this meta post) had incorrect info. I've alerted the CM team and later today they'll be updating this post and the product documentation to reflect the actual implementation. Apologies for all that.
    – John Wright StaffMod
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 15:39
  • @JohnM.Wright should this be [status-planned] or [status-completed] marked?
    – QHarr
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 2:43
  • 2
    I marked as status-completed, since the post was about the product not matching the documentation, and the docs have now been updated. I don't have an ETA for the product supporting full markdown -- that depends a lot on what comes from these meta posts and other feedback we recieve.
    – John Wright StaffMod
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 16:03
  • 1
    Update: Replies now have the same formatting options as an initial discussion post, though image upload is not supported in replies.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Nov 28, 2023 at 19:17
  • @Berthold Great! Very grateful that you have posted the update here.
    – Wicket
    Commented Nov 28, 2023 at 20:01
7

Currently, when you go to post a reply to a reply the textbox appears at the top of the list of replies however when you submit it, your reply goes to the bottom. The textbox should be where the reply will end up instead.

Image demonstrating where the box is and an arrow pointing to below the reply list where it belongs

1
  • 2
    We'll be making iterative updates based on user feedback and this is exactly the kind of feedback that's helpful to us, so thank you.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 18:20
5

A discussion post should be differentiated from posting a question.

On the first days of NLP Collective Discussions, including today, there are a few having questions as titles and bodies that don't look like an invitation to discuss something. I found this confusing.

How should we differentiate a "question" to be posted as a question from a "question" that should be posted as a discussion post?

The following are rhetorical questions. I don't expect to have a straight answer to each of them; they are an attempt to explain the above question.

  • Should we enter into the philosophy domain and ask ourselves, "what is a question"?
  • Many users are already struggling with how do I ask a good question. Should we take the road to writing "how to write a good discussion post" or should we chill down and not worry about discussion post quality?
  • Should we use discussion replies to provide feedback about a discussion post, or should we make a meta post instead?
3
  • As far as feedback, I think it shouldn't be a problem, generally, for now we can't edit posts or replies from other users, so the best we can do is add a reply for that purpose requesting an edit; I'd hope that changes as time goes on and the need to be able to edit things becomes more obvious
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 20:47
  • 1
    I wouldn't be concerned with users asking Q/A questions in discussions, if one feels strongly enough that it'd make a good Q/A pair, encourage that via replies. SG-lite
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 20:48
  • 1
    @Wicket You said your bulleted questions were rhetorical, but for the third one the answer is definitely -- reply to the post if you have advice on making the post better or give other feedback on the post itself. For the second one, I'd say chill down, but not to the point of not worrying at all. A good Discussions post doesn't have to be a question per se, though that's probably going to be pretty common. Best practices ultimately should focus on one specific quality -- Does the post prompt more conversation and knowledge-sharing?
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 22:16
4

What will happen to all the user-contributed content if the project gets sunset like the Documentation project?

1
  • 3
    This doesn't need to have already been decided. Typically SE archives most content of bigger experiments and makes it public in some downloadable format like Documentation or Sites that ceased to exist. Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 9:18
3

Edit replies

When clicking edit on a recently posted reply, the editing box is blank.

Workaround: Refresh the page.

3

Could you hire some NLP experts who are good for starting compelling, attractive technical discussions to bring subject matter experts from the broad community, preferably "outsiders", people not having a Stack Overflow / Stack Exchange account before the launch of Discussions?

You might start looking for them asking to the top answerers and askers of natural language processing tags across the Stack Exchange network:


After three days, the "NLP Discussions" having more replies and views are meta discussions that should be "migrated" to Stack Overflow Meta. Only one NLP-recognized-member posted replies, and they are the community liaison.

4
  • Getting more visibility for Discussions is certainly one of the next steps! We did not expect huge crowds to magically appear in the first few days. We are grateful to you and everyone else for this initial period of usage and feedback.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 22:08
  • I suspect Prosus already has NLP specialists. I'd be interested in hearing from SO how the SO and Prosus AI team are already collaborating to steer SO, if at all.
    – QHarr
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 2:55
  • Thanks for your reply @Berthold. I think it will be beneficial for this "learning in public" experience to be more effective for your team and the community if the experiment plan ensures the participation of a few subject matter experts that match the intended participants, in this case, SME on NLP that are new to SO or at least aren't regulars. It's just a kind suggestion, nothing else. I tagged it as "feature request" because it is the more related meta tag.
    – Wicket
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 17:23
  • One would think it being done within the collective would do exactly that, if collectives are doing what they should be.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 17:49
3

How should we reply to a reply-to-reply?

I posted a reply to a discussion and then got a reply to my reply. This reply-to-reply clarifies my misunderstanding, but still, some things might be worth continuing to discuss. I want to reply to continue the conversation. There is no reply button on replies-to-replies.

4
  • 4
    Type in the text box that is beneath the initial reply that is the start of the sub-thread. You can @-mention the person you are replying to if needed (unless they are the author of that initial reply). Your response will appear at the bottom of the sub-thread.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 19:54
  • 3
    @Berthold Thank you. This is not what I understand as threaded. I don't know yet how to call this. Anyway, that doesn't mean that the design or docs are wrong. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh or negative, I'm just trying to be direct and brief.
    – Wicket
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 19:56
  • 4
    My interpretation of the UI is, effectively, the top level replies are "answers" and the ones below are "comments" on those "answers", looking at it from the standard UI PoV, given the restrictions to how "deep" the threads can go. I think it'd be useful to at least have the UI indicate this in some way past there just not being a reply button to avoid people leaving "replies" in the wrong place.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 21, 2023 at 20:01
  • 1
    @Wicket your understanding of "threaded" matches mine (Ex. reddit comments). I had the same feeling (disappointment? confusion?) when seeing the nested comments feature in Staging Ground.
    – starball
    Commented Aug 22, 2023 at 9:16
3

At this time, it is hard to notice which Discussion Posts have recent activity. While the Discussion post excerpt is shown in the Discussion posts pages and shows the name and timestamp of the last user that made an action, it's the viewer should remember the number of replies each Discussion post had the last time they visited the NLP Collective Discussions page.

Snapshot showing the oldest Discussion posts of the NLP Collective Discussions page.

First (oldest) three Discussion posts on the Discussion page

Snapshot showing the bottom of the third Discussion post (the one at the top of the above snapshot)

Snapshot of the bottom of a Discussion post

I don't find it helpful to know that the discussion post was "modified / edited". Contrary to what happens with questions and answers, a Discussion post edit should not be relevant compared to having new replies. A Discussion post should not be updated to add new content.

2

(or maybe ) See vote counts works on top-level posts but not replies.

When clicking on the score of a discussion post, I can see the vote counts:
enter image description here

However, this is not the case on replies.

4
  • There's lots to try and fit into a small space, and it's helpful to know what stands out as missing, so this comment is appreciated. We'll be working on how to include additional functionality into the layout.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 22:22
  • I mainly think that's a weird inconsistency because the voting buttons look similar on the original post and on replies.
    – dan1st
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 6:32
  • this specific functionality is already available, we're looking into why you might not have been able to see it.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 17:51
  • Viewing vote counts on replies seems to work for me now.
    – dan1st
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 18:27
2

This might look similar to answer, but it's not. The previous answer was posted when there were very few discussion posts. This is about what to expect in the following days as the number of Discussion posts increases.

  1. Will the Discussion posts of the current experiment be shown using pages, or will it be required to keep scrolling down until finding the first discussion post?

  2. During the current experiment, will the most recent Discussion post always be shown on top?

2

Say you're a beginner in a topic, like me, trying to use Kubernetes and Helm charts, and you have a question about it (I know a lot about other topics, but Helm is very new to me). As a novice, it's difficult to know what to search for (there's a lot of terminology and concepts that I'm not yet familiar with), how to make a given general solution work specifically for me, or even what information people need from me if I were trying to ask a question.

In other words, Stack Overflow's Q&A environment does not mesh well with novices who aren't entirely sure what they're trying to ask. Often, questions written by novices are closed due to lack of clarity. Yes, they'll be given a bit of feedback in the comments to help them improve their question before re-opening, but it's not a very effective way to probe someone for contextual data, and, for some, it can feel fairly discouraging. In the end, most of these questions end up being a bug that users have encounter thousands of times over, but the asker just didn't know how to search for and apply a solution with their limited domain knowledge, so it gets closed as a duplicate, or as a spelling error, or some other trivial reason, because it's not good search engine stuff - it's not a good unique question that is well suited for Stack Overflow.

What's really needed is for these kinds of questions to be in a forum format, not a Q&A format. If you have a clear idea what your question is, Q&A is awesome (it's why Stack Overflow has had so much success), if you don't have a clear idea, you need a forum.

Because of this, I'm excited that Stack Overflow is adopting forum-like functionality. I just hope that it can be incorporated in an effective way to help guide askers to know where to place their question. This will be the tricky bit. As a user is asking their question, we need a way to guide them to where they need to go (Q&A or forums?).

The ability to ask opinion-based questions in these forums is cool I guess, but what excites me is the prospect that we can have a better home for all of those questions that get asked every day where the users really just need a bit of guidance in a more casual discussion.

16
  • 4
    What you're saying is the solution to your problem, is constant and endless duplication of the same issue. Surely there's better solutions to XY problems, etc. A better search experience that somehow accounted for this, would be useful. Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 22:56
  • The JavaScript error "Can not read property 'foo' of undefined" has thousands of underlying causes. Do they not understand how async code works and at what time their assignment executes? Maybe they're missing a semicolon somewhere? Maybe their data is getting mutated without them realizing it? You'd need more than a better search to help with this kind of error, you'd basically need an AI helper - and we do have some of those available already, but they don't always work well. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 2:29
  • 5
    But SO isn’t a help desk. And that’s the issue. The volunteers aren’t paid employees. Based on the success of this platform vs others, it’s reasonable to say that the volunteers in general aren’t interested in what is described here. I certainly am not. But then again, I’m kind of done with this place regardless. But I’m not interested in it where I move, either. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 7:40
  • 3
    Reddit is a fairly successful platform as well (aside from the recent strikes happening over there). It's more forum like and it has a strong volunteer base. People are able to ask novice-style programming questions over there and get tons of feedback from volunteers. Novices will use SO like it or not, the question is if we should try to make the environment more friendly for them or not. The way I see it, we either provide a forum format for them, or we continue to deal with tons of unclear questions daily without an easy way to really help the asker. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 16:53
  • 1
    I didn’t really consider Reddit, so maybe you are correct. But what is the quality of this? You say it’s novices helping novices. Is it practically possible to maintain quality with this? Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 20:29
  • 1
    @AndreasismovingtoCodidact it's not about quality, it's about generating clicks. People want answers regardless of how wrong they are, and SO seems happy to oblige.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 20:31
  • @KevinB You know that I know that, and you know I have already given up SE. I’m not discussing this because I care about their experiment; I don’t. I’m discussing it because I happen to be interested in this particular part of the discussion of Discussions. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 20:36
  • 1
    @AndreasismovingtoCodidact i don't see what you not caring has to do with receiving response to a query you posted. If you would like to not be responded to... don't post?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 20:46
  • 1
    It's anyone helping novices, not just novices helping novices. As for "maintaining quality" you may need to be a bit more specific about what your concerns are as there's a lot of ways I could interpret this. (Are you worried about how easy it is for Googlers to find content in a forum thread? Or perhaps discussions getting unwieldy and toxic without enough moderation to prevent it? Or...) Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:05
  • 1
    Quality includes assurance of correctness, best possible solution, security issues pointed out, links to further reading, XY problems resolved, meaning, the guidance the asker needs, not the one they asked for, etc. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:09
  • I don't see why it would be any different. I do lurk around on Reddit, so I'll go back to them as a reference - there's many experience developers helping out the newer ones who do exactly that - they'll point out mistakes, security issues, provider further reading, and can arguably do a better job at providing what the asker needs vs wanted because they have the back-and-forth discussion to discover their true needs. And the voting system helps other readers quickly spot what's likely correct from incorrect among the various responses. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:13
  • @ScottyJamison The difference is in the kinds of solutions being presented. When presenting objective solutions, we don't really care who is presenting them given we can try the solution ourselves and verify the results. That isn't true when the discussion becomes "Which is the best X for Y." At that point, the results can be influenced by marketing/money, favoritism, not understanding the results you're presenting, etc
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:15
  • 1
    If your main gripe with this feature is that their focus is on the fact that it enabled opinion-based discussion, then I'm cool with that. I don't really feel like SO needs a spot for opinion-based discussions, there's plenty of other places to have those. So... if we could transform the focus to instead be on "a safe place for novices to ask questions that may need clarifying", and maybe even ban "opinion-based" questions from this discussions feature, maybe we would be on the same page? I know that's not what their vision is, but that's really all I want out of it. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:20
  • 2
    I do understand that aspect of it, but what i'd prefer to see as the solution to that is staging ground, where you can ask your question and have curators/answerers help you curate your question prior to it ending up live on the site so that you and everyone else can benefit from that question and answer existing. That and maybe some tweaks to the way downvoting works so that it isn't such a permanently negative mark in practice, particularly once a question is improved.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 21:26
  • Hmm, I wasn't very familiar with the staging ground, but it seems like, with some modifications (like you suggested) it could work too. In a way, and maybe this is a bit of a stretch, staging ground almost feels like it's (ab)using comments to mimic a forum-like discussion, so the user can have the needed back-and-forth discussion to figure out what they're even trying to ask. Many users will probably get their answers from the back-and-forth in the staging ground. Everyone else would have their question "graduate" and become a Q&A question. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 22:14
1

Editing sometimes doesn't work:

enter image description here

1
  • 1
    This was reported on a previous answer. TL;DR: Refresh the page and click reply again.
    – Wicket
    Commented Aug 27, 2023 at 23:54
0

I think this would be better if it were more similar to Stack Exchange Chat (e.g. No upvoting/downvoting).

2
  • 2
    Why's that? Could you expound? Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 22:41
  • 1
    @ScottyJamison Voting is a quality indicator, but discussions are supposed to be subjective content. Subjective content may be difficult to judge. The votes may distract from the discussions and may indicate an ability to recognize high quality contributions which is not existing or desired for those who simply want to chat a bit about their problem within a discussion. Just some thoughts. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 6:41

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