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As you might have noticed, we launched an experiment on Stack Overflow called Discussions (currently only available within the NLP Collective). This post is the origin story behind this feature, diving into all the research, activities, and milestone decisions that led us to launch Discussions. Settle in—this post’s a long one!

TL;DR:

  • Our core purpose at Stack Overflow is to enable technologists to better and more easily make informed, technical decisions. While Q&A has served this purpose well for decisions that have definitive, objective solutions, Discussions aims to expand upon this by allowing technologists to source diverse sets of perspectives that may be broader and more subjective than what Q&A allows for.

  • We know from prior research that many users want more diverse ways to engage, learn, and share knowledge on Stack Overflow. In multiple rounds of discovery research and concept testing, Discussions successfully provided users with more opportunities to interact with other knowledgeable individuals and engage in ongoing conversations around specific questions, broader technical strategies and approaches, and general comprehensive knowledge-sharing.

  • We recognize that not all users seek the increased sense of community we believe Discussions can help build. Launching Discussions within our Collectives subcommunity space is how we can experiment with this while minimizing any unintended impact to the core site experience.

  • Discussions will not sacrifice the high-quality content that Stack Overflow is known for. Research shows that quality Discussions should be highly focused and technical within the field/area of practice the larger discussion space centers around. This is not an “anything goes” space, and our community guidelines and moderation approaches will work to uphold this.

  • We want to iterate and build with you. The Discussions feature launched this week is a pared down version of what we believe this feature can ultimately be. Our goal is to see how the larger community uses it and what additional features are needed. We will continue researching user experiences in Discussions as well as gathering feedback from the community.

Background and Context

Prior Research

During the discovery and research phase that led to the next iteration of Collectives, one key issue kept surfacing: the desire for users to connect more with one another, bringing "humans to the forefront” but still remaining highly technical. Over the last two years, this is a sentiment that has surfaced across a lot of research activities in a variety of ways — surveys, co-creation sessions, and traditional interviews. Across them all, we’ve learned that — done right — a supportive community that is focused on knowledge sharing, interactive collaboration, and made up of smart, technically-minded peers would be highly valuable to many of our users.

In some ways, Stack Overflow today has some of these elements, but it’s lacking in others. Internally we’ve come to think of this as the “Big City” vs. “Small Town” dilemma. Across two years of research, we’ve come to understand that the most valuable and sticky online communities convey the feeling of a small town, regardless of the size of their user base. The majority of its members understand its norms, feel that it’s approachable and welcoming, can actively ‘connect’ with others around them (we’ll get into what high-quality connection looks like later — but spoiler, it isn’t social media-esque), and can take some time away but easily jump back in when they’re ready.

To the majority of our users, Stack Overflow today feels like a Big City, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. (As a company headquartered in NYC for a large part of our history, we love a big city!) But there are very special corners of Stack Overflow that have emanated the feeling of a small town, which its members speak of with great fondness — those certain chat rooms you keep going back to, the tags of more niche technologies where you start to recognize and appreciate other active users, and some of our Stack Exchange sites.

We want to intentionally create the feeling of a small town on Stack Overflow through Discussions. We hypothesize this will help foster engagement and knowledge sharing by a wider base of our users who might be averse or find it challenging to start off in the big city of Q&A. This directly ties back to our core purpose: enabling technologists to make informed decisions. In order to do this we need a curated, maintained repository of knowledge that’s accurate, credible and up to date. Discussions aims to offer new, diverse ways to engage on Stack Overflow while simultaneously providing technologists the opportunity to share technical knowledge that leans a little more subjectively than our main Q&A function.

Emerging Needs within Collectives

Meanwhile, within the Collectives product, we realized we needed a space for Recognized Members to collaborate and organize efforts. Additionally, through research activities but also general participant feedback, the need for a space that allowed expanded conversation about the collective’s content and area of practice began to emerge. Yet these valuable conversations would fall outside of site guidelines, typically for being too broad to be a good question. We summarized these issues into a mission statement to be explored and validated: How might we provide a space for Members of the collective (including Recognized Members) to engage with one another and build subcommunity in ways that are not currently possible on Stack Overflow?

We knew this would be a large paradigm shift for the site overall and didn’t want to introduce something that could impact the current Q&A experience in a negative way. If we changed the core of Q&A, we could risk damaging the knowledge base itself and causing it to become untrustworthy and unreliable. ​​This kicked off an initiative to allow Admins and Recognized Members a space to communicate within the site. We started by creating a more restricted space to allow us to explore having subjective content on Stack Overflow in a focused and controlled environment — small steps.

Additionally, we ran a test of what this could look like on a slightly larger scale by adding a Discord server for the CI/CD and R Collectives. Even though this received very little engagement (largely due to a lack of discovery and driving people off-site, things we knew would be an issue up front), we started to see some use cases and appetite for such a space. We also learned about some potential issues fairly quickly (e.g. somebody posting a link to their Stack Overflow question in the chat in hopes of getting an answer faster) that we would need to mitigate and solve for in a future iteration.

Other Factors at Play

We had additional long overdue issues that were getting resurfaced as some of these conversations were happening.

  • Large scale research on top user issues on our site found strict rules around objective content have blocked users from being able to get information that would be helpful for decision making around more complex technical problems.

  • The restrictive nature of Q&A has created boundaries and limitations on the type of knowledge that is preserved on the site.

  • There’s a significant number of questions that are posted and then closed due to being subjective despite having significant upvotes for both the question and answers provided (examples: #1, #2, #3).

Key Findings from Recent Research

The new Discussions feature was born out of a series of recent research, design efforts, and user feedback - all iteratively informing one another. Our goals were what has been described above: providing our large user base engagement opportunities that can drive a stronger sense of community, while also positively contributing to the knowledge base of Stack Overflow. All of this ultimately supports the sustainability and value of the site.

First, we led multiple cross-functional design sprints. These sprints led to a number of concepts being proposed and then finessed. We then tested two of the most promising concepts in over 8 hours of in-depth user feedback sessions, with representation across a large spectrum of user types. These sessions led to important learnings shared below. Please note that neither of these designs were the exact Discussions feature being launched today, but both included elements of users engaging in online tech-focused dialogue with one another that would likely be closed for being off-topic in Q&A and became the backbone for today’s feature.

Key Finding: Diverse Ways to Engage, Foster Community, and Gain Knowledge

A major finding is, regardless of how users felt about the specific features, our participants all expressed a desire for Stack Overflow to innovate and felt that more diverse engagement options furthered this goal. Discussions - or the ability to be in technically-focused but subjective dialogue with other users - revealed to be very interesting to users participating in our various research activities. Specifically, participants felt Discussions would positively contribute to both their knowledge sharing experience on Stack Overflow and their sense of community on Stack Overflow.

  • Knowledge Sharing: We found that not only does subjective dialogue like Discussions offer new engagement opportunities to users but it also has the potential to contribute to and increase the rich knowledge maintained on the site. Stack Overflow is a trusted platform that our research participants felt could host high-quality discussions driven by the knowledgeable users already on the site. Done well, Discussions on Stack Overflow could enhance how we deliver on the site’s ultimate value: enabling knowledge-sharing to support technologists in making strong, well-informed decisions. The site is already filled with technical content for problem-solving and learning, thanks to you all. Discussions adds the opportunity for our users to interact with other knowledgeable individuals and engage in on-going conversations around specific questions, broader technical strategies and approaches, and general comprehensive knowledge-sharing.

  • Sense of Community: We know some of you might be thinking to yourselves, “I come here for information, not for a sense of community.” To that point, yes, this research also highlighted that different users have different expectations regarding the sense of community they want to experience on Stack Overflow. This is precisely why we are currently testing Discussions within the Collectives space. We don’t want to negatively impact the Q&A experience for those users who are currently getting the site experience they desire (although we know improvements can be made to our Q&A experience too!) But it’s important to recognize how large and diverse our Stack Overflow community is. There are many users, all of varying experience levels who do want a stronger sense of community on Stack Overflow, and who could see themselves engaging more and sharing knowledge more within that stronger community space. Our approach is to create a ‘choose your own adventure’ experience, where users are able to plug into the level of engagement and community they individually desire. Launching Discussions within our Collectives subcommunity space is how we can start building towards this without disrupting the core site experience.

Key Finding: An Active and Streamlined Experience

If our Discussions feature is to enhance Stack Overflow’s value as a trustworthy knowledge repository that supports technologists in making informed technical decisions, it needs to be a streamlined experience. Users flagged the importance of being able to find valuable information efficiently. A “feed” of active discussions helped strike the balance between allowing users to explore interesting conversations vs quickly finding what they need based on their use cases.

Unsurprisingly, we also found that users want to stay onsite when in conversation with other Stack Overflow users. This is a learning that was also validated through evaluative research regarding the launch of Topic Collectives, particularly when it came to the Discord experiment. Not many of us prefer to be taken off site when engaging with a site feature!

Finally, we know from many hours of research that to create a valuable experience for our users, this space needs to be active. And that means it has to be discoverable! As mentioned earlier, Discussions is meant to be an extension of Stack Overflow’s knowledge base - meaning the content within it should be organized, relatively easy to find, and easy to jump back into if a user has taken time away. All of this is also why Discussions is more than a simply reworked chat feature, but if you have further questions along those lines, we’ve shared a more detailed explanation in this MSE post.

Key Finding: Quality

Across all these research sessions, a critical caveat was introduced by our users. Discussions would be a valuable addition to Stack Overflow, so long as the content was high-quality. Users continuously emphasized that the space would need a set of standards and guidelines to maintain quality discussions, otherwise spam and irrelevant content would overwhelm the space. While we intended to keep the same site standards around obviously low-quality contributions like spamming (see our community guidelines on how not to be a spammer), we also wanted to investigate what specifically marks a low vs high quality discussion in a tech-focused space.

To hone in on what makes discussions high or low quality, we conducted an unmoderated card sort activity with over 50 users, whose years of professional experience ranged from >1 year all the way to 40+ years.

What we learned is that high quality discussions are highly focused and technical within the field/area of practice the larger discussion space centers around. For example, discussion posts that centered around topics like “advice on best practices and approaches to a technical problem”, “theoretical/conceptual discussions related to the field”, “providing or receiving feedback on a project”, and others in similar veins had the majority of our surveyed users indicating they’d like to both read and actively participate in these online conversations. It’s for this reason that we are firmly emphasizing in our Discussions guidelines and curation/moderation practices that discussion posts be technical and focused within their relevant field/area of practice.

This research also helped us understand what is less interesting and lower value to our community. Discussion posts centering on career advice and course/certification recommendations captured the least amount of engagement interest from surveyed users. These posts are also likely to be less technically focused compared to the topics mentioned above. Findings like this helped directly inform our guidelines for the Discussions space.

But of course, this is just the beginning of our understanding. As with many of our newly launched features, we will continue utilizing quantitative data and alongside rigorous qualitative research to evaluate the Discussions feature and better learn what our community members find valuable in the space and what needs to change. We expect that the guidelines and best practices around discussions to ensure that all the content on our site is higher quality will evolve as we learn more.

Fast Experimentation and a Willingness to Fail

Foundational research is essential, but ultimately we need to test our assumptions by releasing something and observing what happens. This led to the decision to experiment and test this idea quickly by releasing a pared-down version of Discussions in a relatively small, self-selecting community: the NLP Collective. We’ll be transparent about this—we had to cut a lot of great ideas for features that would enrich the experience. The goal here was to get something out quickly so we could see how people use it and which additional features would be most beneficial. We want to involve the community sooner rather than later and gather feedback from people using the feature as we continue to build out the experience. If this experiment goes well and people are finding Discussions valuable, we’ll iterate and develop it into a more complete experience.

Final Thoughts

If you’ve made it this far, thank you for your time and interest in this space. We have a long way to go still and lots more to learn and validate with this feature. We’re extremely thankful for all the time and energy spent by users to share their opinions and thoughts on these ideas. We’re happy to answer any questions you have about the steps and research outlined in this post. We’ll be closely monitoring engagement and usage data, as well as talking to more users directly and looking into any feedback we receive. Please feel free to share your thoughts and the product team will aim to respond.

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    Regardless of how it ultimately turns out– I really like the data- & research-driven approach, and I like how this was born out of something identified internally as a genuine need. I also like the "big city" v. "small city" concept a lot, and I think it's got a lot of merit to it for informing design decisions & direction.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 19:13
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    So basically you are going to allow carte blanche on subjective, opinion based and too broad questions? No thanks.
    – JK.
    Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 21:11
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    Thanks for sharing! The goal is certainly admirable. Allowing more open discussions and ditching most moderation tools while maintaining the same content quality is easier said than done, but we'll see how it goes.
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 11:31
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    I feel like there are a few hints in this post that Discussions is intended to be a competitor to Reddit's tech forums ("subcommunity" in particular), is that the case? If so, as someone who deleted the Reddit app but still craves that feeling of community, I look forward to this. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 16:12
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    I think discussion guideline should also mention meta and make sure people are not posting something that should be on MSO to there, IMO. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 18:40
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    @dylan-myers too bad the comment "threading" only goes one level deep. seems hard to compete like that. It looks to me more like GitHub discussions, which are also only nestable one level deep.
    – starball
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 19:56
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    @JK. We're are allowing subjective and opinion-based content in this space but it still needs to be related the associated collective and follow the guidelines outlined in the Help Center. These guidelines aren't perfect but they will evolve based on what we see in this space and what feedback we receive from users.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 20:55
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    @Berthold as I state in my answer post, the Help Center already had guidelines for subjective Q&A that were considered workable enough to be enshrined there. All this talk about subjective content not being allowed doesn't seem representative of actual site guidelines.
    – starball
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 20:57
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    @dylan-myers: Actually, "Subcommunity" is what Collectives is referred to as in the code. I don't think that term is specifically intended as a reference to Reddit or anywhere else, just the concept that it's, well, a subcommunity within the broader community of a site. (That said, we're glad you're looking forward to this feature!)
    – V2Blast Staff
    Commented Aug 26, 2023 at 2:21
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    @M-- Thanks for your feedback. We do plan to revisit the guidelines in future iterations as we learn more about how users engage with Discussions, and this is something we are thinking about.
    – Sasha StaffMod
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 18:39

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After looking over this and re-reading things, all I can do is say that I simply...disagree with the conclusions here.

The crux of this site was to make it a bastion of high quality Q&A, not a site where people could "engage". We've always had chat for that, and while it is a clunky, unwieldy, highly dated beast of a service, improving that could start motivating groups to hang out here and become more of a community.

I don't see how any of this actively encourages or supports Q&A. This just turns this place into yet another social media network, where interactions are valued as highly as answers to questions.

What part of "no chit-chat" did this survey miss? Why is this such a difficult thing for us to just...not fundamentally alter?

We want to iterate and build with you. The Discussions feature launched this week is a pared down version of what we believe this feature can ultimately be. Our goal is to see how the larger community uses it and what additional features are needed. We will continue researching user experiences in Discussions as well as gathering feedback from the community.

I don't think the people that want to iterate this are the people you're addressing. Most of us are beleaguered and bleary-eyed from another cycle of feeling let down by leadership, and all we think we're asking for is something relatively simple, only to be given something completely...not in line with what we originally signed up for. But at this point, instead of trying to see in the middle, and speaking just for myself, I can see that there's more of an invisible hand driving this, and driving this hard, for the platform. So I don't think I can actually contribute to this, since "don't do it" is just not going to be absorbed.

I don't like the vibe of Stack Overflow - a site that's geared towards getting answers to your questions - slowly introducing these social media features into its core DNA and marketing that as backed by the community. I cannot recall for the life of me people who think that these sorts of features are a must-have thing, except for those people who fail to understand what Stack Overflow's role really is.

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    "We've always had chat for that.." And now we have chat and discussions for that. I don't see it as that bad. I think that maybe even discussions could be the better chat. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 15:05
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution thus far, discussions is Q&A without the A, it doesn't even come close to serving a purpose aligned with what chat is.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 15:09
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution: I guess the irony of the remark you're making is that it brings the whole "Stack Overflow doesn't listen to the community who is pleading for changes, they just build something else" pattern back into square view. Instead of improving something that exists and is known, it's just an eternal middle finger for those of us who engaged and offered feedback and improvements in good faith on something we already knew and something that could fit this role.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 15:09
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    sad thing is, they indeed already should have really good engagement metrics at SO, thanks to dark more, Following and Saves features which greatly increase value of creating and maintaining SO account. They probably just don't understand that they simply need to collect these existing metrics and properly present them and instead focus on tedious development of dubious new features that likely increase engagement orders of magnitude less compared to what they already have
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 15:41
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    Writing as a user experience researcher, I mainly want to express appreciation for your feedback. You are right that not every user will be interested in iterating on this feature with us and that's ok. We just want to ensure users are aware of the opportunity to. Ultimately, the conclusions of our research led us to determine it was worthwhile to test (in the least disruptive way possible.) As we evaluate this feature we will be closely looking at the core elements you highlighted here: high quality content and a place where technologists can get answers to their questions.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 20:31
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The list of feature-request for chat is a mile long. Why aren't you focusing your efforts on making chat better? There are a lot of rooms which give us "sense of community" and bring "humans to the forefront". Why would you reinvent the wheel? And why would you shape it like a square instead of a circle?

The Public Discussion space on NLP is already filled with low quality posts, posts that are more suited for meta, or even questions that belong to the main Q&A. To rub salt to the wound, there is no way to curate them. When flagging, we are not given an option to add a message or provide context. And those flags won't even show up in the flagging history. It seems that flagging a discussion is only reserved for content that violates CoC, but beside that, everything is considered acceptable, at least as of now.

P. S. I am not against an experiment with a limited scope. But the major issues such as lack of a clear guideline, limited curation tools, etc. should be discussed and addressed if this is going to achieve anything. Remember that even good ideas with problematic execution can and will fail: Sunsetting Documentation

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    I can't even flag one of the discussions that belong on Meta, anymore. The flagging button is gone. The first reply is mine, stating the discussion belongs on Meta. Then later on, I reply to a staff member's reply, again stating that this discussion belongs on Meta. It doesn't seem like they want to curate that space. At least not so far. Commented Aug 23, 2023 at 23:57
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    @AndreasismovingtoCodidact I flagged that same discussion, was expecting something like mod-flags, but it just said flagged, and now shows that I flagged it at the top. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 0:00
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    I flagged it twice. I now flagged another comment under a reply in another «discussion». It’s NLN. I’m curious to see what happens. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 0:28
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    Got deleted, but I also pasted a link in a comment section that a staff member later replied to, so, I kinda messed it up. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 23:10
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    It's true that our chat feature could use some attention. That said, we don't see Discussions as a replacement for, or alternative to chat. You can read more in this answer about how we see the differences between the two features. The feature set is very limited for Discussions right now, including the flag functionality. We're make small iterative improvements based on what we learn from seeing who’s interested in participating and how they're using the feature.
    – Carrott StaffMod
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 17:48
  • @Carog thanks for the response. Chat can be more accessible and "glamorous" to eliminate the need for Discussions (my point). While I am not quite on board with the concept, I understand your objective. I just think it has shortcomings and material issues that would cause more problems. That's anticipation though, so to clarify, I am not against the experiment. But expanding it before straightening out the major issues, such as flagging (curation tools in general), will be detrimental and even if there's a use case for it, we'll end up with an unusable feature (remember Documentation). Cheers. Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 18:17
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The new Discussions feature was born out of a series of recent research, design efforts, and user feedback - all iteratively informing one another. Our goals were what has been described above: providing our large user base engagement opportunities that can drive a stronger sense of community, while also positively contributing to the knowledge base of Stack Overflow. All of this ultimately supports the sustainability and value of the site.

How does subjective content positively contribute to the knowledgebase of SO? The whole reason we don't allow it is because it doesn't. It's usually comprised of lists of links without much support, opinions that can't be trusted, statements without supporting facts/details, all of which age poorly. SO has never been the place for this kind of content. If it's going to live on the side where it rarely gets curated/moderated it'll never rise to the level of being a valuable addition to the knowledgebase because it isn't valuable knowledge.

I'm all for supporting smaller sub communities within the platform, however, this doesn't do that. If anything this, and collectives as a whole, has instead shined a spotlight on these smaller sub-communities causing them to be subject to more outside views from people who aren't in those sub communities, turning it into the "big city" you're seemingly trying to avoid.

The whole... thing that causes these unknown corners of the network where people tend to gather and hang out to prosper is being away from the lime-light. A place where you can just chill, chat, get a quick opinion from a friend, etc.. Any time the company has interfered with that, it's resulted in an exodus of users. Look at chat participation changes between 2016 and 2020. You should be able to easily tell where the company initiatives occurred.

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    @chivracq subjective content from people with credentials is valuable. Subjective content from every random person with an opinion is not.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 0:15
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    Let me rephrase. Subjective content can always be "useful" if one just wants any opinion that sounds right from a random person on the internet, possibly with some interweb points on SO, but there's nothing there to really judge how... "correct" that content is. Yes, we have voting, but history has shown even wrong answers often get upvoted... that isn't the best tool for it. with non-subjective content, the content is objectively provable, anyone can take the solution and try it for themselves to validate it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 0:19
  • I don't think subjective content is bad, rather, I don't think it's what should come up when someone is trying to solve any regular problem. If that's the kind of content they're looking for, great, show it to them. (semantic search should be great at figuring out intent in this case, right?)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 0:24
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    We believe subjective content can make a positive contribution to the SO knowledge base when it comes to high-level technical decisions and approaches. We heard from many users that at a certain point, the "problem" they're trying to solve is less about a coding issue and more related to weighing trade offs of decisions. For nuanced situations there might not be one objectively right answer, but there is still valuable knowledge to be gained from subjective answers. We agree link-dropping & statements without supporting details are low quality which is why the guidelines encourage more detail.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 14:15
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    As for this being new on Stack, you're right that this is new for the platform which is why we wanted to test this on the site with the least amount of interruption to the core experience. The idea that our attention to the sub-communities has shined a detrimental light hasn't come up in our research but it's a point we'll make sure to watch for as research continues. When we conducted research with users who aren't Collectives members but participate in related tags, the most common reason those users weren't members was due to issues with discovery (a whole separate issue being worked on.)
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 14:19
  • I agree, that there's some value there, but the value is within our existing guidelines. There's a reason a subset of subjective questions are allowed. I have trouble trusting "We've heard from many users" when there's no data with questions the data is based on. That reason has been used repeatedly over the past 10 years to push forward awful changes.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 14:31
  • More often than not, this "research" method feels like a thinly veiled justification for a paid or otherwise marketing/profit related venture rather than something the community actually needs/wants.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 14:40
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    Effectively, you identified a problem and implemented something to solve it... without getting the community involved in figuring out whether A) it's actually a problem, and B) if maybe there's better ways to solve it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 15:48
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Discussions aims to expand upon this by allowing technologists to source diverse sets of perspectives that may be broader and more subjective than what Q&A allows for.

/help/dont-ask defines "good/constructive subjective". Subjective Q&A is not completely disallowed. And we already provide clear guidance on how to ask subjective questions constructively.

a supportive community that is focused on knowledge sharing, interactive collaboration, and made up of smart, technically-minded peers would be highly valuable to many of our users.

Public Q&A here is that. (Though the "supportive" part may depend on interpretation, and is subject to sullying from those who make actually rude comments- that is to say- it at least can be that or already is that thanks to the people who volunteer their time on the platform to make the internet a better place every day).

We want to intentionally create the feeling of a small town on Stack Overflow through Discussions.

Stack Overflow is Big City because it's renowned. I don't see how making a new space with no reputation requirement and where anyone can enter the conversation will create Small City. I'm pretty sure the only way you get Small City like this is if most people don't know that the space exists.

In order to do this we need a curated, maintained repository of knowledge that’s accurate, credible and up to date.

And who will curate this? How? It has been stated that CMs will be moderating- not the elected mods. Who will deal with duplicate comments? Do CMs really have the bandwidth for that? How do you get curated when things can't be edited?

Meanwhile, within the Collectives product, we realized we needed a space for Recognized Members to collaborate and organize efforts.

Why not use meta? If there are pain points with meta, why not just solve the pain points in meta? I've already commented that the mixture of main and meta content in the NLP discussions space is... weird. Also, chat is a thing if extended discussion is needed.

Large scale research on top user issues on our site found strict rules around objective content have blocked users from being able to get information that would be helpful for decision making around more complex technical problems.

Again, subjective content is not banned on Stack Exchange.

The restrictive nature of Q&A has created boundaries and limitations on the type of knowledge that is preserved on the site.

I'd like to see further explanation of this statement. It's hard to talk about problem solving with problem-statements as general as this.

There’s a significant number of questions that are posted and then closed due to being subjective despite having significant upvotes for both the question and answers provided

If they can be edited into good subjective or already good subjective, they can be reopened.

The new Discussions feature was born out of a series of recent research, design efforts, and user feedback - all iteratively informing one another.

When did this start? I never heard anything about this until the announcement dropped that it would be released in the We Are Developers talk.

Our goals were what has been described above: providing our large user base engagement opportunities that can drive a stronger sense of community, while also positively contributing to the knowledge base of Stack Overflow

Why not explore changes to chat? You already said that chat has succeeded in building spaces for community. Why not explore ideas about it? The main thing keeping chat for being this (I think) is the reputation requirement, which has its uses. But you could explore ideas like letting high-rep users invite low-rep users to chat.

I come here for information, not for a sense of community

I will wager that it's not just some of us MSO readers, but the vast majority of users of SO. SO is a community, but it's highly-anti-social by design. Votes are anonymous. Comments are second-class citizens. We don't say thanks- we vote. Anonymously. Pleasantries and other sweet nothings in posts are removed as noise. We don't vote on people- we vote on content. Non-answers like bumping a post to see if an answer has been found are deleted. All of this is by design to serve the goal of Stack Overflow: Q&A with no noise. Q&A that gets to the point. Q&A where the best content (eventually) rises to the top.

I'm invested in this place enough that I do want community. And I get it from chat and meta. But I mostly only talk shop (curation) in chat because I generally prefer not to put a bunch of personal info about myself on the internet- at least not tied to my identity here on SO.

Users flagged the importance of being able to find valuable information efficiently

This is pretty much why what is written in /help/dont-ask is written there. To be able to find valuable information quickly, it needs to be well-defined/qualified so that everyone is talking about the same thing, needs to to solicit depth and reason so people can come out of reading it with "why" and not just some flimsy "what", and needs to be well-scoped (focused) so that it is easily searchable.

Finally, we know from many hours of research that to create a valuable experience for our users, this space needs to be active. And that means it has to be discoverable!

How many times have we expressed that this is a problem with meta and chat- that they aren't very discoverable? And yet we're still waiting for change.

In the linked MSE post:

Our current Chat tool does not easily facilitate extended lifespans of particular conversations, and previous conversations are often hard to find.

A fruitful discussion in chat can be converted into a Q&A post(s), which should by design make them easier to find. Meta can also be used for question workshopping or design before posting. I also don't see how discussions will make things that much easier to find. If it's because you're have search features, it'll only be better because chat's search is ignored in its rather sorry state (see also [chat] search [feature-request] is:q -[status-completed] on MSE).

Across all these research sessions, a critical caveat was introduced by our users. Discussions would be a valuable addition to Stack Overflow, so long as the content was high-quality.

The hardest part of doing subjective is getting quality and depth. That's the whole point of the guidelines for constructive subjective Q&A. I still don't get why you think Q&A plus chat for extended discussions can't be what you're looking for.

“providing or receiving feedback on a project”

But... Why? There's already the Code Review site, and it has chatrooms for extended discussion.


Looking at the guidelines you wrote up (which I was pleasantly surprised to read and think are not bad, so hats off to you), I'm particularly... piqued by this point:

  • Collaboration on open source projects
    • Brainstorming ideas for a project
    • Providing or receiving feedback on a project

This is the kind of stuff that's highly localized, gets outdated quickly by nature, hard to focus to specific points of discussion, and well suited for chat, but unlikely to produce something of long-term and easily searchable value.

Though on the point of you having done well with writing up those guidelines, I notice that most of those are just pulling on what you've learned from how to do Q&A on SO well... and that what you end up with is a set of guidelines not very much unlike a subset of those for doing Q&A on SO, which just furthers my thinking of... why this?

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    Responding to a few points across multiple comments. Although not completely disallowed, subjective content it is still very restrictive & limiting. Foundational knowledge such as learning design patterns, how to write unit tests, and functional languages were closed for being a poor fit for the current Q&A rules, despite the fact that, from significant upvotes, there is a clear, recurring need for users to be able to find & learn about these topics on SO.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:36
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    If you're curious, other examples of closed Q&A that demonstrates this are: which style guide/rules should be considered, comparison of two frameworks, algorithmic complexity, package manager comparison, and how database indexes work.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:40
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    For "who will curate this?" - We know that moderation for this space is different than Q&A, and we didn't want to force our elected mods to take on a whole new type of moderation that they never signed up for in the first place. See more in the launch post under Moderation. We are aware that CMs won't be able to sustain all moderation in this space forever. We are looking at scaling strategies and a big part of that is moderation and how we can best do that effectively.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:41
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    For parsing my sentence around "enabling technologists" - First off, apologies, on second reading I agree this line is clunky and I've edited it for clarity. But to respond to the larger question: Subjective responses (like varying opinions on different approaches or tools to achieve the same goal) help technologists get more information needed to make the right decision for their purpose and context. We want technologists to see all the options and facts and be able to make the best decision on which solution to use for their specific use case.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:43
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    For "why not use Meta?" - the line you cited was specifically around the need for Recognized Members to collaborate (just one piece in all of this.) Unfortunately, not all SO users are on Meta. We explored similar concepts to discussions using a Private instance of Teams (for Private Discussions with Admins + Recognized Members) and Discord. One of the main pain points from that trial was that it was 'off site' — creating another place a user had to go 'check.' That extra layer creates more disconnect & greatly affects discoverability & usage of the feature which in turn, affects the value.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:49
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    For "when did this research start?" - across the last 2 years, themes around the value of more subjective content and stronger community connection have risen up across various research activities: initial and follow-up research for sub-communities; user needs in online, technological communities; evaluative research on our current Collectives, etc. Building off the findings from prior research, in spring 2023 a cross-functional team formed to more explicitly research, design and test various concepts that led to Discussions. Please keep in mind what launched recently is a pared-down version.
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:51
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    And, for "why not use Chat?" - The response here does a better job of answering this than I can in our comment section! We appreciate you asking all these questions and offering your thoughts on the matter!
    – Lizbee Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:51
  • @Lizbee For 244706, resource recommendations can go in tag wikis. 3258733 is too broad- you could write a whole book about it (see /help/dont-ask). 36504 is a bit on the broad side (I'm on the fence, but I'm also not an SME with functional languages, so I'm not a good person to speak on whether more focus is needed), but I think it has potential for long-term value.
    – starball
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:53
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    @Lizbee "there is a clear, recurring need for users to be able to find & learn about these topics on SO" I'm not aware of upvotes being a qualifier of what belongs on SO. There's tons of off-topic, highly upvoted content.
    – starball
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 21:56
  • @Lizbee I think 4678178 is fine if it can be written up with some better qualifiers of what should and shouldn't be listed in answers (does anything go?). As for comparison questions like 60812883 and 35062852, I just wrote meta.stackoverflow.com/a/426216/11107541. 75102854 is rather broad (asking for an open ended list of things that do X. the list could be virtually endless). I would rephrase 1108 to ask for what techniques are commonly used to implement indexing in a specific class of databases (question could better spell out that it's asking about relational databases).
    – starball
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 22:20
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    @Lizbee "Unfortunately, not all SO users are on Meta" that seems like a poor reason to me. like- "oh some of our users don't know that we have a pool, so we decided to spend money and time to build more pools instead of just doing better at telling people that we have a pool".
    – starball
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 22:25
  • @Lizbee was it announced on meta that this research was being conducted when it started being conducted? Were active users on meta invited to participate in giving feedback?
    – starball
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 22:27
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    @Lizbee I think this recent problem which was recently brought to Meta, shows that people actually need to come to Meta, and that Discussions are no replacement. You have a recognized member here that fails to understand basic properties of this platform, how it works, and doesn’t follow community consensus in their moderation. This kind of thing should’ve never taken place in Discussions; they need to come to Meta. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 7:51
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    @Lizbee You say that research shows the need for more subjective spaces. Now, I don’t think SO’s research was well grounded, but that said, for the remaining public research; does that really apply to Stack Overflow? People want lots of things. I want lots of things in life that I don’t want on a site like SO. It’s outside of the responsibility of the site. Part of why SO was created, was exactly to combat/counter spaces like these. That is why the site has been so successful. This subjective content is in opposition to what the site is about. Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 7:56
16

In my experience, most "technologist"'s opinion-based questions (aka "discussions") do have a definitive, measurable, objective answer. It's just that most discussions stem from an ill-defined question.

If you can narrow down a discussion with questions like "What is your budget in implementation time, runtime, memory or disk usage and buying third-party solutions?" and things like "What is the input domain and what outputs are acceptable?" and "Which attack vectors are you considering?", you'll see that most discussions stop being discussions and start being "Oh, we haven't thought about that".

And we have close reasons for that, denoting a question as unclear, unfocused, unreproducible.

Removing those reasons will only cause one thing: people spouting unvetted and inexperienced opinions.

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    Ironically of course this is my opinion.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 6:55
  • 7
    Good thing we already have the staging ground to fix questions needing to be better defined… oh wait, they put that on halt to work on new features. Like this one, probably. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 14:10
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Thank you for sharing your plans. I am afraid that I have a negative response. I will do my best to share the source of my reaction.

I am involved in Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange because I believe in the original mission. Our mission, as I have always understood it, is to build a high-quality archive of knowledge that will be useful to others in the future, in the form of questions and answers. Not a social site, not a discussion forum, not a place to build community, not a place to interact with other knowledgeable individuals, not a help desk, but a shared effort to build a knowledge base that is useful for humanity. Optimize for pearls, not sand. A combination of the best of Wikipedia, Reddit, and blogs. That is the basis on which I have participated in this site. That is always how I have understood the purpose of Stack Overflow. It's a mission that the founders articulated with great effectiveness, built a group of users around, and designed the site to support.

Now the company comes presenting a vision which does not seem to advance that mission. Indeed, I interpret the post as saying that the company is focused on things other than the original mission. I interpret this as saying that the mission, as I understood it, is not so important to the company; the company's priorities are elsewhere, in expanding in directions that are orthogonal to that mission.

I find this disconcerting and disappointing. What happened to the mission?

I see Stack Overflow as a place that is polarizing -- in the best possible way. Some people love it and are deeply energized by the mission and become power users. Some people hate it (and they go complain on Twitter). To me, this sounds like a great thing, it is what has powered Stack Overflow and enabled it to be so successful. It doesn't need to appeal to everyone -- it just needs to find a core group of people who are inspired by the mission and pour their time into its success.

I find it sad that this seems to be lost. The company seems to have lost its way and lost its connection to the mission. Instead, the company seems to want to be something for everyone, and the old mission doesn't seem to be prioritized any longer. The company views it as a problem that not all users love Stack Overflow, and is trying to find something for those who are left out (e.g., who don't feel a particular connection to the mission). And as I look at what is being proposed -- Discussions -- I see something that won't contribute to a high-quality knowledge base and I suspect will suffer from all the problems of discussion forums that originally inspired the creation of Stack Overflow. (The world doesn't need another php discussion forum or Experts Exchange or Yahoo Answers or Quora.) There seems to be little point in offering feedback on the details of the proposal, as the values and mission seem to be off-base.

So I view this with sadness. New people have arrived at Stack Overflow and are in charge, and the original mission doesn't seem to be the priority any longer. The company has other priorities and values. Improvements to the site that would benefit the original mission seem to be a lower priority. From the outside it appears the company is chasing engagement and number of users and such metrics, and trying to be something for everyone. I anticipate that focus will not be healthy for the future of the site. I anticipate that chasing dollars and profit will ultimately be harmful for the site's health and the company's finances.

The future looks negative to me. I predict those users who were deeply engaged by the original mission to continue slipping away and becoming less active as they repeatedly observe the company de-prioritizing the original mission. I predict the new discussion venues will be full of chat and noise, the experts won't want to engage there, so people won't get expert answers to their questions, and when there are useful insights, they'll be buried deep in discussions and so not findable or useful to others in the future. I predict a downslide into mediocrity.

I know staff have shared that they don't appreciate coming to meta and being hit by an onslaught of criticism. I apologize if I'm making your life worse with my negativity. I'm hoping that you will find value in the perspective from one user.

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    Don't worry, the "research" shows this is what community members want! i just wish the research was performed in a way that we could actually see the results and methodologies... because at this point it's basically "Trust us! the research is sound and says X!" It might as well be made up.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 14:27
  • 3
    @KevinB, Yeah, I can appreciate that reaction. I'm prepared to believe there are people who want it... or who think they want it, if they are asked during UX focus groups/surveys (they might not realize the reasons why it won't work). Even if so, I don't think that's a good enough reason to build it. Having a mission polarizes people, so if you have a strong mission, you will always find some people who want something else. That is OK, and doesn't necessarily mean one should try to please them. Trying to be something for everyone is not necessarily good as you can lose your mission.
    – D.W.
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 17:44
  • 2
    It also appears that Stack is pursuing literally a different mission. "Our core purpose at Stack Overflow is to enable technologists to better and more easily make informed, technical decisions."
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 28, 2023 at 17:46
8

I feel like I might be a bit confused, with the goals here.

If the intent of this feature is to allow the subjective, x vs y or what's better type of discussion to occur, wouldn't a Q/A style environment better serve that compared to the, Q/threads style that discussions is? I get the style it was released as possibly fitting for meta-like discussions where there are no "answers", but even in that scenario... having actual answers in those cases allows for the full set of features that the existing Q/A solution comes with.

I don't know how to allow subjective content like this to co-exist with the knowledgebase material we already have, but I don't think it simply being another place is a good move. New users won't know to go there, we'll need systems to push users there when they make a mess of things, it's just the same "toxic" loop that exists today. If instead there were a way to allow these kinds of questions to exist and be answered in the main Q/A area while still allowing us to indicate and sort/handle incoming questions to ensure the things that don't belong get removed or marked as "opinion based" so that it can live in this new "space" without all the negativity, that'd be above and beyond better than putting this content somewhere potential experts may not even be looking.

Such a labeling feature would also be useful for, say, indicating what questions are simply debugging questions, or how to questions, etc, so that people who are answering can zero in on what they enjoy answering.

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    I think the right move would be launching sites with different set of rules and objectives, so they'd allow such content to be posted on them. We have Software Rec, Data Science, Super User, etc. which cover some of these topics/questions. But then they don't have a user-base like SO. TBH, I think fighting against this feature is a lost battle. Best that we can do, is trying to get it closer to something tolerable. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 0:10
  • @M-- the reason i disagree with that is it doesn't solve the problem. The current solution to users posting subjective stuff is to send them away, opening new sites for them to go to doesn't stop that for the same reasons discussions doesn't. Yes, stack gets to "retain" some of it, but it's no less "toxic" to the user involved.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 18:08
  • Well, if we care about user experience, then we need a better on-boarding process. That sounds familiar but I "heard" SO is not working on that no more. Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 18:28
  • 1
    I haven't heard that they aren't working on it anymore, what i've heard is it has been delayed. It seemed pretty close to being "done" anyway. (i am in the beta)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 18:31
  • 2
    @M-- I don't think it's going to fail, but i highly doubt they're gonna have the participation long-term to keep it open to all incoming questions from new users. That won't cause it to fail, because they'll simply cap the number of pending questions to fit the participation. hopefully that won't be the end of research on it, and they'll then use data/results to determine how to best filter incoming questions so that the ones that benefit most from it make it in more often than those that don't.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 18:57
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    Some version of the type of solution you mention could be within the realm of possibilities for a future iteration of Discussions. The idea of being able to redirect opinion based (or otherwise subjective/out of scope) questions from the main Q&A to Discussions, where they may be a better fit, is intriguing. We didn't want to disrupt the current Q&A experience too much with this initial experiment. Collectives gives us a more contained space to test out new features, but where it goes from here will depend on what we learn as we gather feedback and iterate.
    – Carrott StaffMod
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 18:01
4

I'm glad to see this kind of research being done. Unlike some other comments here, I'm perpetually positive about new efforts to revise SO's product offerings.

I recognize that QA as it is does indeed feel like a big city and this is daunting to new users. Much like NYC, its hard to fit in and thats a real problem for company growth.

However, QA does do a decent job of structuring technical knowledge, and makes it easier to find what you want to learn (you know, search could always be better but I presume thats a work in progress)

Unstructured discussions, like the chat forums before QA, may be more approachable, but suffer from a harder time finding and structuring the knowledge they contain.

Now, putting two and two together, one might wonder if a first party AI tool, like chatgpt, could use those discussions, synthesize them, and make them easier to find and structured.

And its possible this could work. But I think it misses a good opportunity to leverage SO's greatest resource, which is not AI, but its community. If there were a better way of formally transforming discussions into QA, you'd be able to make your pie and eat it too. Discussions could remain an open, inclusive wild west of varying quality, and QA could remain a structured searchable reference of technical knowledge.

So, how would that work? Perhaps there could be an auto prompt that appears at some point in a discussion when it seems like things have reached a conclusion, prompting either the questioner or answerer to formally write up a QA pair. While this sounds tedious, you really could use AI here to synthesize a first draft and just allow the participants to revise as needed. Or, you could go full manual and just provide rep for doing so. Never underestimate the power of fake internet points.

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    One might wonder that. Sadly, the technology just isn't there. (There's some recent innovation that might work a little, but it's a different direction to ChatGPT; it'd have to be actually first-party, with all the development effort and expertise that implies, to work.) The only suggestion in this answer that we do have the tech for is identifying when it "seems like things have reached a conclusion".
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Aug 24, 2023 at 18:28
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    We really appreciate your response here and the ideas you shared. We are thinking about that connecting loop between discussions and Q&A when it makes sense. Again, we love seeing this type of feedback.
    – Carrott StaffMod
    Commented Aug 25, 2023 at 15:17
3

I'd like to take a look at the discussion guidelines and the list of "encouraged" topics. Would I like to see those here in a discussion format?

Advice on best practices and/or approaches to a technical problem

This one I am sceptical about. In my experience, there are too many "evangelists" around, touting the horn for their one and only approach to problems.

Theoretical and/or conceptual discussions related to the topic

Basic or foundational knowledge about the topic

Will there be a need for discussions? I find that I learn about concepts the best by reading comprehensive materials. Short answers to questions lead me to start serious research, not asking follow-up questions.

Also, I am reminded of the long-deleted documentation feature that definitely did not work out.

Collaboration on open source projects

Based on how often I use comments to offer ideas where I see a technical path, but have never taken it myself or wouldn't be able to provide a proof of concept in reasonably short time, yes, that definitely makes sense to me.

Discussions that expand on existing Stack Overflow questions/answers

I've been known to nitpick on other's answers when I find some detail is either wrong, misleading or comes short, while as a whole the answer was fine. Having an extra space to discuss such cases would change the focus from "how to improve on the answer" to an opportunity to go off the rails and focus on things only marginally related. Pro: it might help to avoid a public one-upmanship between experts. Contra: it won't help to improve the answer.

Sharing resources and information (articles, videos, etc.) related to the topic

Recommendations on software or tooling

Yes, that was what I immediately thought about would be a good thing. Currently, I learn about resources and tools mostly by stumbling upon them in answers written by my co-experts in my field. Always keeping in mind how fast these things tend to age, it would be great to ask about them directly.


And finally, you already know that: It's the quality, stupid!

1
  • Just quoting the comment by Sasha (a CM) on the question itself, since your comment is focused on the Discussions guidelines themselves: "Thanks for your feedback. We do plan to revisit the guidelines in future iterations as we learn more about how users engage with Discussions, and this is something we are thinking about."
    – V2Blast Staff
    Commented Aug 29, 2023 at 16:59

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