161

Saw this earlier on Freelancer, and wondered what the consensus was?

https://www.freelancer.co.uk/projects/Javascript-jQuery-Prototype/Build-Stack-Overflow-reputation.html

One view point would be that you shouldn't be able to buy rep, but on the other hand if that person is willing to pay someone to answer questions and those answers make the site a better place then why not!

Just wondered how this was viewed by others?

As others have stated the project as been removed. The description was

enter image description here

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  • 34
    Somewhat related: Selling Stack Overflow accounts The way I read the subscriber agreement, this would technically be illegal.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 10:17
  • 16
    I think that if people are stupid enough to pay for rep, then let them. On the other hand, if they acquire enough rep to get to moderation tools and abuse them, then that'd be a different matter (although I'm sure they'd be quickly identified and banned if that was the case).
    – user142914
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 10:29
  • 113
    If they get someone with the usual talent that seems to go around on Freelancer all their answers will probably get downvoted anwyway.
    – PeterJ
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 10:30
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    Fairly predictable how that's going to turn out. What he needs is a good editor that bangs his questions into shape, completely legitimate of course. What he'll get however is somebody that thinks he can make a thousand bucks with a couple of hours of work. Posting quicky junk answers and upvoting them with a sock account. End result: minus a thousand bucks, no rep increase, a week in the slammer. Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 11:19
  • 13
    I may be missing something. What is the point of having someone else build you a rep when you cannot do it yourself? That must mean this user cannot answer anything on "his" topics anyway. (Unless, indeed, it's a ruse to quickly gain access to high-rep facilities, such as the Executive Bathroom Island.)
    – Jongware
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 11:28
  • 29
    @Jongware Is it possible that someone is paying money to simply buff their CV? "Hey, look how good I am on the top coding Q&A site!"
    – Fluffeh
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:35
  • 18
    @Benjamin I like the fact that it places a 500 bounty worth between $125 and $175... I've been offering them for free so far dammit! :p Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 13:03
  • 88
    @Fluffeh - We've seen many people operate sock puppets or voting rings for just this purpose. One time, we suspended an entire company worth of people for this, at the same time they were advertising their Stack Overflow reputation on their contracting site. It was hilarious to see a listing of accounts all sitting at 1 rep in the flair on their site's front page once we took care of them.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 15:22
  • 40
    "Please post your own stackoverflow account in the response." Is there a way to see these responses? I'd love to have a list of people to watch over like a hawk.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 15:24
  • 4
    This might not be bad for the content on Stack Overflow (a correct answer is a correct answer), but for the quality of Careers this might have a bigger and bad impact.
    – Emond
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 15:58
  • 17
    The project has been deleted by the user. I guess they read Meta Stack Overflow. Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:37
  • 7
    "if that person is willing to pay someone to answer questions and those answers make the site a better place then why not" - Part of the answer to that might be to point out that the question is flawed because it doesn't necessarily make the site a better place. In some ways it makes the site a worse place. For example, it creates a situation where another user could erroneously give weight to an answer they are looking at because of the person's invalid rep. Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 13:01
  • 8
    The guy could be paying because he wants to tell either clients or future employers "I'm great at skill x". Then his employer or clients, he hopes, will pay him more. In that light I think it's totally fraudulent. And as others have said, the answers will probably be lower quality than legit ones, or upvoted with spam accounts the guy makes himself. Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 15:30
  • 7
    This just seems totally wrong and stupid. I don't quite understand the lengths people go to already to gain magical unicorn Internet fart points that are absolutely meaningless in real life, but to open their wallets now too?
    – Aaron Bertrand Staff
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 16:21
  • 15
    At this SO point valuation Jon Skeet is worth almost a quarter of a million dollars, $247,659.40 to be exact. Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 17:02

6 Answers 6

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I always thought rep would become more of a commodity than simply 'unicorn points' ever since the time I applied for a job and they remarked about the score that I had on the site. This was long before I worked for Stack Exchange, I was doing mostly freelance consulting work and it amazed me that employers were more interested in my Stack Overflow profile itself, rather than my Careers 2.0 profile - it was as if Careers was a means to an end for folks not directly using it to hire.

Employers do look for participation on Stack Overflow now. If they're going by your reputation score alone during the interview - ask to go to the restroom and then climb out the window, run like hell and never look back. If they're not looking at your actual answers, and how well you can convey knowledge, then they might as well be counting your Facebook friends instead. That's not to say that hitting 10k, 20k, 50k or even 250k isn't a remarkable achievement, but the rep is just evidence of that achievement, not the achievement itself.

It makes me a little sad that someone would be paying someone to build up a profile for them. I suppose they could be doing it for a number of reasons, maybe they're just really intimidated by the site, maybe they're in a hurry, maybe they're just lazy. The point is, and yes I have one, they're missing the entire point - if you can't defend things you wrote in answers in an interview, you're not going to get hired.

Yes, it's definitely frowned upon, but not just because it not only skirts legalities as well as (possibly) our own terms of service. We have some pretty clear requirements (section 3, subscriber content):

Subscriber represents, warrants and agrees that it will not contribute any Subscriber Content that (a) infringes, violates or otherwise interferes with any copyright or trademark of another party, (b) reveals any trade secret, unless Subscriber owns the trade secret or has the owner’s permission to post it, (c) infringes any intellectual property right of another or the privacy or publicity rights of another, (d) is libelous, defamatory, abusive, threatening, harassing, hateful, offensive or otherwise violates any law or right of any third party, (e) contains a virus, trojan horse, worm, time bomb or other computer programming routine or engine that is intended to damage, detrimentally interfere with, surreptitiously intercept or expropriate any system, data or information, or (f) remains posted after Subscriber has been notified that such Subscriber Content violates any of sections (a) to (e) of this sentence.

Allowing a third party to post on your behalf doesn't automatically transfer this responsibility to them, because it's not their account - hence, if discovered, we'd at the least need to have a chat with the person responsible.

And, there's this, in section 1:

Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, Stack Exchange may offer to provide the Services, as described more fully on the Network, and which are selected by Subscriber, solely for Subscriber’s own use, and not for the use or benefit of any third party.

But that's still not it - you're cheating yourself out of being the communicator you're willing to pay for, and that's the real travesty.

Now, for any of this to come to a head and really begin to suck, we'd have to discover it. If the person he pays ever comes back to contest ownership of the posts, well, we've got a big problem then. If (even more likely) the person you hired just copied content from other sites, and it was determined that you paid them to do this, we'd ask you to leave the site. I can't imagine many scenarios where this goes well.

So, put simply:

Paying people to pretend they're you on our sites is probably going to have the opposite of the desired effect, we're probably going to suspend you for a very long time, at the least.

That shiny profile you just payed $1500 to polish? Yeah, it's not so shiny when there's a big fat notice of being suspended for rule violations on the top of it.

Officially, we do not recommend this practice.

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    As a footnote, it might seem odd to see an opposition to receiving quality content, whatever the source. But that perspective is as myopic as it is flawed, the chances of the person you hire fumbling about (or perhaps accidentally triggering a merge with their own account) are much, much greater.
    – user50049
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 15:49
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    It would be a nice backlash: "Can I see your SO account?" "Sure ... oh wait, I'm suspended until 2027!"
    – Jongware
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 16:53
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    I thnk the biggest point of SO to employers is not the rep but the content of your account, it is an invaluable insight into your true coding and working process
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 16:56
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    "I always thought rep would become more of a commodity..." - Me too. I expected to see Stack Overflow monetize it a bit. For example, allow someone to buy 100 or 250 points for a bounty if they don't have the points themselves. The yield would probably be better than the penny ads.
    – jww
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 23:27
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    @jww Of course that introduces the same problems as Experts Exchange :)
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 0:05
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    I can just about see a value in allowing cash->bounty points. I also think it might be amusing to get paid as a professional repwhore. Not enough to actually do it mind, but the idea amuses me.
    – Sobrique
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 15:23
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    The bottom line is that this is identity theft (even if willing) and is illegal. Not to mention it looks like he is doing this to the end of padding his résumé by lying, which is also illegal.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 15:26
  • Bonus question: Is it allowed to pay someone to put a bounty on a question? Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 17:11
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    And I put a a bounty on another user's post today for free :( Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 17:46
  • "...the rep is just evidence of that achievement, not the achievement itself..." Exactly Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 21:25
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This user is looking for someone to:

answer questions for the topics on the languages listed as skills in the project

Which means there is a high chance is looking to fake the fact he knows something about:

.NET, Java, Javascript, jQuery / Prototype, SQL

In order to get a place on some work, hence we come back to @Arkanons answer of: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/fraud_act/#offences

There is a high chance this is a criminal offence under UK law, unsure as to what other countries say, however, if he is caught by his (new?) employer and/or head of said project they would be in their right to sue and dismiss him, not only that depending on the company loss due to this lie he could suffer prison time.

I would strongly recommend reporting this immediately, I will; you will be doing both him and employers a favour.

One other thing I can see (if this keeps occuring) is that it could hurt us if we wanted to use SO on our CV...

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Under UK law I would interpret that person's actions to be fraud by false representation. That person is falsely representing themselves as the person who provided the answers in order to gain the reputation increase and the trust that goes with it, knowing that his account status would be untrue and misleading to others.

I can't imagine that it's easy to detect that such a thing has occurred, but if evidence was found to show that an account had been boosted in this way I would hope that the account would be locked, the reputation score zeroed, and the answers marked with "attribution in doubt".

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    I highly doubt that anyone could be prosecuted successfully just for that. If they included the SO profile on a CV and this helped them get a job under false pretences maybe this could happen though. Students told they face jail for lying on their CV Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:35
  • Can I be interpreted as falsely presenting myself by this law? Can grandchildren of Salvador actually decide that most probably he can not know mongodb and under UK law sue me? Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:37
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    Sorry, I meant that it can't be easy for Stack Exchange to detect such abuse, not that the police would spend effort in trying to detect such behaviour. I agree that the justice system is unlikely to be concerned, but I do feel that the Stack community should come down hard where such behaviour is proved.
    – Bobulous
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:37
  • @MartinSmith I would say there is a 90% chance they are using this to get onto a project, hence they want rep in the projects subjects
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:39
  • I can't imagine any perceived (let alone actual) gain from a tribute nickname, so I think you're safe @SalvadorDali.
    – Bobulous
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:40
  • @SalvadorDali If we uncovered that you were in fact three people unrelated to you answering all your question then yes
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 12:41
  • @SalvadorDali as long as you are not saying you are the famous painter, no. It can be a nickname or another person named like that.
    – Davidmh
    Commented Sep 6, 2014 at 13:02
  • How is this fraud? Suppose you got hired by some businessman who wants you to build them software. By contract, your name will not be mentioned anywhere, and you will help build their reputation (by delivering quality software). In return, they will pay you money. Forget software, some companies legitimately build brands, i.e. reputation, out of thin air, for money, it's been their business for decades. If this was considered fraud, there would be no TV ads and/or mass media. And no politics. :) Commented Dec 13, 2016 at 21:58
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The goal of SO is to provide high quality answers to professional programming questions. Whether you answer those questions from your own head, you find an answer in the documentation and summarize, you ask a colleague and post his/her response, or you pay someone else to answer the question for you, the important thing is that the community is enriched with high quality answers.

Now, if you take the credit where credit is not due and attempt to use that credit in a duplicitous way to gain something you could not have otherwise gotten, you are probably breaking some anti-fraud law of one sort or another (or at least your employer's policies). But I don't see any reasonable way that Stack Exchange can control or police such nefarious activity. Certainly, outing yourself on a job board isn't a very good idea, but you'd be caught anyways when your on-the-job skill set fails to match what you represented in your resumé. I've seen this happen plenty of times before with people who managed to pass a certification test by studying to the test rather than understanding the subject matter - they typically don't last long after being hired.

Stack Exchange is not an accreditation company. "Reputation" is not certified. User accounts are not verified to a particular individual. Any employer who uses a reputation score from Stack Exchange must recognize this. They must judge candidates by their claimed reputation score at their own risk. It certainly should not be relied upon as a trustworthy analog for a thorough interview process.

In short: It's probably a very bad idea. I don't think Stack Exchange can effectively prevent this. Any employer who actually makes employment decisions based solely (or mostly) on a Stack Exchange account is very foolish.

I have mixed feelings about SE's response, though. On one hand, I feel like this account should be suspended. I certainly wouldn't want such a user gaining moderation abilities as I doubt their veracity. On the other hand, you'd have a hard time arguing what exactly it should be suspended for. Afterall, most users post answers that are not entirely original - many of us consult documentation and peers. This is just an extreme end of what we're all doing (in a way). There are also much more harmful ways of gaining quick reputation, such as answering very low quality questions.

In the end, if this behavior were commonplace, I think it'd be bad for the site (and could, perhaps, lead to messy legal entanglements for Stack Exchange). If there's evidence to suggest that this practice is commonplace or growing, I'd recommend a change to our terms of service to make it an explicitly suspend-able offense.

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  • Just because they look, and take into account, profiles does not mean they are a bad employer. I know most IT employers who will not hire without GitHub and community related profiles. They wanna see you on the internet and they wanna see you in action, wow you have a degree in whatever science...who cares everyone else on the list has the same degree, they look for something that stands you out and SO provides that ability. Why do you think Careers 2.0 exists?
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 0:44
  • @Sammaye Two words: "...based solely..."
    – JDB
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 2:40
  • If you they cannot you apart from other people another way then they will hold a lot of weight on your SO profile, since you also said "mostly".
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 10:42
  • @sammaye - most hiring decisions are based on connections anyway. If it really came down to two identical candidates except for their SO score, then it would still be foolish to hire based on the SO score. It doesn't really mean anything outside of this site.
    – JDB
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 11:46
  • I would that the guy talking about paying by rep was just to add a measurement he could work with, what he really wanted was answers in a projects subject areas as such most likely he was looking to say: "Look at what I have done on SO in these areas"
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 12:44
-1

IMHO buying rep really negates the value of rep. I completely understand why people would want to do it, but generally speaking people want to do the easy thing most of the time (my own biased opinion).

Once you can game the system in a way that is not distinguishable from actual value, the system becomes untrustworthy and therefore no longer a valuable measurement.

Personally, I'm not concerned with rep. If someone with 0 points has a great answer, then they've got a great answer regardless. However, if you're going to position something in a way that suggests higher rep == greater respect/value, then every effort should be made to ensure that it's meaningful.

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    IMHO buying rep really negates the value of rep Suppose you invite your friends for dinner and pay for everyone. Did you negate the value of rep by doing this ? :) Commented Dec 13, 2016 at 21:51
-12

Do you seriously think anyone will pay $25 or $35? I think it is just a ruse to get people to answer questions on his behalf, for free. I doubt he would actually pay the $25.

Idea! He should instead, post, "I will pay $25 if you explain to me the concepts behind a solution to a SO question and provide me with hints to come up with the next solution to a related question, by myself". This way, he will be taught the concepts.

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    Sad thing, yes. Look at World of Warcraft, it happens much more often there.
    – gunr2171
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 17:16
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    The concept here is cheating. On World of Warcraft you pay to cheat, here the guy is paying to cheat rep on a certain project, assumption being that he will actually earn that and more back most likely
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 0:42
  • @Sammaye I am sure the SO founders will be flattered, but I don't think anyone can "earn that and more back most likely". That is why I think this is a ruse.
    – likejudo
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 15:37
  • If the project he wants in on has a good wage and bonus on it and SO would put him forward ofother condidates I don't see he couldn't earn more money than he would pay. It is all about puffing up your CV and profiles like SO are a good way of doing that, and it can give you a job whereas someone without will not get it.
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 16:18
  • @Sammaye No one ever asked me for my SO login id in an interview
    – likejudo
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 19:19
  • They normally won't look at something unless you put it on, you have to make the effort that's not their job plus I don't think they are legally allowed to ask you, for example they are not actually allowed to ask for your facebook (though some do...)
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 19:24
  • @Sammaye Well, then the simplest way is for him to go to SO and look up the id of someone with a decent number of rep points, in the same field - and put that id on his resume, claiming to be that person. (Of course, I am not condoning cheating but adding to the discussion...)
    – likejudo
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 19:52
  • This comes back to the age old question of lieing on a CV, even though there is nothing that stops you it is illegal and quite easy to uncover in an interview, presumably this guy was somewhere in between of that, where he wanted to have a SO account he could add his own layer of questions on top maybe (unless he was a bit dumb, posting on freelancer would say that he is) and easily pass it off as his own
    – Sammaye
    Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 20:01

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