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Given the recent blog post, an overhaul of the Stack Exchange Q&A model now seems inevitable.

enter image description here

This image apparently illustrates what Stack Exchange thinks of its own model nowadays.

But all of these design elements are critical parts of what differentiates Stack Exchange from other forum environments. This is what Stack Overflow's success has been built on.

What are Stack Exchange's plans for this overhaul, and can it be done without turning Stack Overflow into another Quora or Yahoo Answers?

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    Yeah, this is a Big Yikes from me. I was going to compile some thoughts on this after leaving a "Mood" response on their Twitter account.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 14:50
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    There'll be a Newbie Filter (tm) that simply makes most of this invisible below a certain rep/age threshold, keeping both camps happy: people who don't like what we have because it might discourage people who generate views and people who think what we have should absolutely not be touched in any way because it's how we got here. (Disclaimer: there probably will not be such a filter.) Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 15:01
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    One suggestion I've seen that seems to fit the mood of that blog post is to replace the downvote tally with a single exclamation mark and give a message explaining the purpose of negative feedback. I really hope this time it gets considered.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 15:06
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    @NickA: A UI divided against itself cannot stand. At the very least, you can't really remove the comments. (But I suppose they can at least stay if no longer "snarky or unhelpful" through our recent focusing on helpfulness.) If any kind of filtering like that were to be implemented, it should probably not focus on the account asking the question but the question itself -- while it's not "cooked" yet you don't get to see all the other cooks shouting "it's RAW!" and proclaiming you an idiot sandwich (with apologies to Ramsay), something like that. Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 15:15
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    Ideally, we need two sites: the rainbow-and-sunshines Stack Overflow for People Who Want Answers And Like Clicking on Things to Generate Views, and the marble-and-jewels Stack Overflow for People Who Enjoy Earth's Most Curated Repository of Interesting Programming Questions (and Maybe Also Like Clicking on Things to Generate Views). Practically, we only have the one, it's not clear we could even have two and be as successful as the one, if tweaking things one way or the other is even a good idea, etc. I'm glad I'm just here to occasionally say things I hope help to answer questions! Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 15:22
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    Those who are in charge of this stuff have already written off the meta / power-user community. So, likely it will just be the one "SOverflow for People Who Want Answers And Like Clicking on Things to Generate Views" and no "Stack Overflow for People Who Enjoy Earth's Most Curated Repository of Interesting Programming Questions".
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:49
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    @Sklivvz: So long as you have some command over the English language, you should be able to interpret and receive feedback in English. It does beg another domain problem entirely if you have a question but you can't understand the responses because of the language barrier.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:55
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    It's how you interpret it that can bite there, @Makoto... Funny story: just last night, a co-worker was kinda down about a response they'd seen here on meta, interpreting it as a snarky put-down. A few of us recognized the author, and relayed that this was likely a function of their cultural background rather than intent, that the comment was likely meant as a bit light-hearted of encouragement. Now multiply that by the thousands of interactions each day on SO... Cultural friction can be a very difficult thing to even see, much less overcome.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:51
  • 6
    @Shog9: Oh, I can totally get that. I'm more speaking to the language barrier issue here. That's not a problem that pure and fluent English prose can fix, and is a problem that sounds incredibly difficult to actually get at the root of since what one person may see as light-hearted and banter-like may be interpreted as deeply hostile or snarky. That said...I wonder if the first step would be to assume good intentions when reading feedback on Meta?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:53
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    @JeroenMostert There are already lots of rainbow-and-sunshines sites out there. SO doesn't need to make one in order to know what it looks like when one is created, or the types of content that is produced as a result. SO was created precisely because, once upon a time sites like that were all that existed, and they didn't work. So if you think that is ideal, then huzzah, you've been living that ideal for the past 10 years.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:32
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    Being able to take criticism is a life skill... It's a shame in the blogpost this is so cryptic: "we introduced a new company-wide policy that I felt was relatively benign." The feedback here is that it wasn't benign, and some reflection should be taken as to why there was an expectation failure/mismatch with reality. Getting feedback is a good thing, it means you can correct yourself - in Stack Overflow this means writing better questions (and answers). Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:11
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    There's taking criticism, and then there's benefiting from criticism, @Andy - and they're not the same thing. In the situation Sara alluded to, I stayed out of the Slack thread - it was chaos - and instead wrote a long, carefully-worded email. Eventually, we were all invited to collaborate on a document that laid out concerns. The criticisms were largely the same in all three venues, but I'll wager the second two were a lot easier to take - and I know they were a lot more productive: they resulted in a new policy. And that - actual change - should be the goal of constructive criticism.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:23
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    @AndyHayden When I read in the blog post "...people feel targeted even when there aren’t unfriendly comments. This problem is on us ...", my initial thought was roughly: "No, this exactly shows that the problem has not been on us all the time!" (and in fact I still think that, in a more nuanced form). But for the first time in a long while, I have to agree to a point made in such a blog post: "The Newbie Experience®" could probably be designed in a way that looks less discouraging, without necessarily sacrificing its corrective effect that aims at keeping the quality high.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:37
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    @ScottHannen The fact that someone from SO now at least seems to have recognized that certain problems are not caused by the ("toxic, inhumane, sexist, racist, dismissive, mean, hostile, incompassionate...") community of SO, but by the way how some people perceive the feedback here is a huge step forward (and I hope that my impression is right here). (And a side note: I wonder which "rainbow and unicorns-SE" you refer to... I could make a guess ... but we shouldn't do this here ;-))
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 13:21
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    @Shog9 The welcoming push has never been an exercise in improvement, though. It's always been the application of a set of misguided social values that SO was set up in opposition to. Askers get frustrated and leave because SO is not set up for individual guidance. They're not interested in the goal of accumulating content with long term value, they don't appreciate moderation, and they typically are missing one of the willingness, the foundational knowledge, or the ability to piece together various parts to construct their solution. As such, they aren't part of SO's target audience.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 18:43

9 Answers 9

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I think there are some AWESOME opportunities to refine the experience just for new users. Particularly in light of the excellent New Question Wizard that was recently introduced for new users.

The plus side is that experienced users won't see or feel these changes at all, because

  • how often do they even ask questions?

  • in the rare event they do ask a question, they wouldn't get shunted to the new user question wizard anyway.

It's a long story, but Wikipedia invited me there to give talks back in 2010 or so when Stack Overflow was still "new" and they were deeply concerned (and rightly so!) about the entrenchment of the Wikipedia editor class, lack of diversity in Wikipedia participation, and so forth. Since one of the things I constantly have to remind people of is that Stack Overflow has a heck of a lot more in common with Wikipedia than, say, Slack or Discord, or classic programming forums.. almost ten years on, this feels particularly relevant at the current time.

stack overflow venn diagram

The main advice I gave Wikipedia in 2010 was the same advice I'd give Stack Overflow today — you can radically alter (and improve!) the new user experience without breaking anything the experienced users are seeing. (The second bit of advice was about how painful and confusing the wiki editing experience is on Wikipedia, I do believe they have improved the new user edit tools as well since then, with a "beginner mode" pseudo-WYSIWYG editor?)

That's why I'm so ecstatic 🎉 that work is finally happening on the ask page, which was more or less unchanged from 2011 to 2018. 😭 The ask page wizard changes are the very best place to get leverage on improving the new user experience! And wizards are super amenable to adding, changing, removing steps in the wizarding 🧙‍♂️ process pretty easily … right?

  • you could ask people if they feel like they need extra help (or if they're a part of an under-represented group)
  • you could have some kind of pseudo-question-sandbox to play in
  • you could have other beginners audit the beginner questions and offer the other beginners advice
  • you could connect people who need it with live mentors
  • you could gently redirect people who need more structure to educational sites like Khan Academy, online reference sites, etc

The sky's the limit.

I'm basically an optimist when it comes to "how can Stack Overflow improve". I think there are zillions of things one could do to improve the product in soooo many dimensions, and scoping those changes to new users is easy. Change is good. Calcification is not. Get busy living, or get busy dying.

However, that said, there is one thing I am concerned about. If Stack Overflow currently views its mission as "it is our responsibility to teach every living human how to code from scratch", then that's gonna be.. uhh.. really hard? 😰 I honestly don't feel it's possible to bolt on a completely different mission to Stack Overflow a decade after the fact. Not because I don't believe in that mission (it's a perfectly fine mission) but because that mission takes a completely different product? I alluded to this in my blog post:

What you'd want for a beginner or a student in the field of programming is almost the exact opposite of what Stack Overflow does at every turn:

  • one on one mentoring
  • real time collaborative screen sharing
  • live chat
  • theory and background courses
  • starter tasks and exercises
  • playgrounds to experiment in

These are all very fine and good things, but Stack Overflow does NONE of them, by design.

And to be clear I'm not saying that SO should not do those things either. Plenty of companies take on multiple missions with some degree of success*. But if they do take it on, I think they're gonna have real problems unless they treat it as what it really is -- a parallel product that has radically different goals and needs.

* I honestly feel it's easier to be really good at one thing, but if you're feeling like an A+++ overachiever who sits in the front row of class, who am I to stand in your way?

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    "the excellent New Question Wizard" you mean the one that to this day still tells users that how-to questions are off-topic despite the numerous times that feedback has been given to that effect? Also, are the emoji's really necessary? They just make the post harder to read as far as I can tell.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 0:44
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    Why did you leave the company? (don't answer that) They need you more than they think they do.
    – cs95
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 0:54
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    well Tiny Giant I work on discourse now and these kinds of things are common there as it is more of a casual does-all-the-things discussion system, not highly structured Q&A, so maybe it bleeds over a little 😉 Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:54
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    The example of Documentation is pertinent, it seemed like it was a good mission fit, but despite a lot of good will and effort put towards it, ... it was a failure. That the current Stack Overflow formula provides high quality Q&A is incredible, there should continue to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary change. Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 5:44
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    While I agree that the wizard is naturally amenable to tinkering, many of the specific suggestions you make for things to add to it strike me as kind of terrible. Having beginners audit the work of other beginners seems like it's just inviting the blind to lead the blind, and I can't imagine why we'd ever want to ask people about what "under-represented groups" they belong to as part of the question-asking flow.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 7:01
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    "Documentation...was a failure." I saw a horrible movie last week. It shouldn't have been made. That doesn't mean people shouldn't make movies. We learn from mistakes. What could stifle innovation, improvement, and problem-solving like not doing new things other new things failed? Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 12:49
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    @TinyGiant Thr community needs to stop complaining about emoji. You're allowed to hate it, but we're years past the point where they're now a standard part of informal communication for large fraction of people, like linguistic shifts of the past. A generation or so ago, using "cool" in a company post would have been seen as grossly unprofessional, but it became normal and now you'd be weird for calling it out. The same is happening here, and the community repeatedly jumping on anyone who communicates like an increasing fraction of people communicate makes us seem unfriendly and out of touch. Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 13:36
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    @JeremyBanks emojis have no place in Stack Overflow and serve no purpose but to confuse readers and obscure the content of posts. I was asking if it was necessary, not "jumping on anyone who communicates". I find it a lot more difficult to read posts that contain emojis so I'm communicating that. Inclusivity for everyone but me, right?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 14:57
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    "Dear Next Person Who Opens an Emojis on Meta 'Bug', I will personally come to your house and bludgeon you to death with a giant Red Heart"
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 18:42
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    Back to the topic: I had particularly enjoyed the Venn diagram passage of your blog post. Any efforts towards making it bleedingly obvious that Stack Overflow is a wiki will be worthwhile -- beginning with our own approach as curators.
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 18:50
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    That meme is officially deprecated. Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 19:06
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    "Having beginners audit the work of other beginners seems like it's just inviting the blind to lead the blind" see this response for specifics. Civil comments had to shut down because their business model didn't work (long story, don't sell to newspapers and other companies with basically no money to spend), but the actual product worked like gangbusters. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 4:27
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    "you could gently redirect people who need more structure to educational sites like Khan Academy, online reference sites, etc", This is interesting. Usually any reference to an offsite tutorial is seen as 'RTFM' and unfriendly. (I liked Documentation™ because it was OK to link to in those cases). Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:14
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    Your answer got me thinking... maybe it could be beneficial to find a way to help new users learn to properly answer questions, too. It's less apparent than new users with poorly-received questions, but there's a definite trend of comments-as-answers (esp. for >50 rep users), and to a lesser extent flawed answers in general. An answer tool similar to the new question wizard, which helps new users formulate (and research) good, high-quality answers, could prove beneficial as well. (It might also help to lower the rep requirement for commenting, but that has its own problems.) Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 17:01
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    Can you explain the reason for asking a new user if they are "a part of an under-represented group"? How would the user's experience change if someone notes that they are a part of "an under-represented group"? Does that mean the need extra help? Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 20:52
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Random aside, but as I posted back when there was a push for Stack Overflow to be more friendly, I wonder if wording would help? For example, it can feel bad to have a question closed as a duplicate, but what if instead of just saying,

This question already has an answer here:

Link to existing answer

It said

Congratulations! This question already has an answer here!

Link to existing answer

Or something to that effect. Getting closed as a duplicate maybe would feel less bad if presented differently?

You could take it further

Congratulations! Your question already has an answer here!

Link to existing answer

Thanks to your question our search engine now has more data to help lead people the answers they seek.

Or something to that effect.

Could you do the same with other close reasons?

Instead of

Put on hold as off-topic by soandso

This question appears to be off-topic. The users who voted to close gave this specific reason:

  • "Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are not useful to other readers. See: How to create a Minimal, Reproducible Example."

maybe

Could you please edit your question to include the code needed to reproduce your issue

It is really helpful to other users to put the code you're having trouble with in the question itself. It's also important to put enough code that people can reproduce the issue you're having without having to go look at some other website.

Questions with just links to external sites are not useful for other users. Those sites can disappear or the code on them can change, no longer showing the problem.

One you've added the code we'll look into re-opening your question

Just throwing out ideas. I'm sure some people will feel this is coddling and others will rightly argue that users that haven't already included the code probably are not experienced enough to know how to.

I'm just wondering if it would be helpful for most messages to try to be encouraging in some way to offset the feeling of "Closed you idiot!" that while clearly not explicitly stated nevertheless seems to be the feeling many people including myself take from getting a getting a question closed.

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    I remember someone from SE (Tim?) said that it's time to reword the close reasons/canned responses to be more friendly, and I agree with that idea. However, for duplicate, it's only useful for good signposts. I find it hard to imagine a congratulation message to a duplicate with a negative score that will be removed automatically by the system in the end...
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 6:00
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    Maybe then instead just highlight that there is an answer for the question elsewhere and put the question (including the score and comments) into the background. Put a message at the top: “Someone found an answer to your question on the following similar questions: […] Please check those out to see if they can help you solve your problems!” and then some questionaire to further guide the user: “Could you solve your problem with those links? [Yes] [No]”.
    – poke
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 12:04
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    And the “No” has a follow-up that asks the user to explain why those suggestions didn't help. Afterwards, that explanation would be posted as a comment and the question would be put in the review queue, while telling the user that (“Your question is currently being reviewed”). And ideally, the votes shouldn't be visible to the user during that time, to avoid further discouraging the user.
    – poke
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 12:04
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    Yes, but no indirect RTFM: "Congratulations! Stack Overflow has found an answer for your interesting question in 279 ms. Click here to enjoy it." Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 19:10
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    @PeterMortensen Sounds good, but we could even personify Stack Overflow to make it more welcoming! "Congratulations! The Welcoming Stack Bot has found an answer for your interesting question in 279 ms. Click here to enjoy it." Heheh... Maybe not.
    – Davy M
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 21:46
  • Having the questioner see something different from other users upon closing is a really interesting concept. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 5:17
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    I’ve suggested elsewhere that you just don’t tell the user this has happened. The moment it gets a close vote, add the answer from the duplicate under their question. Maybe fake the votes and everything so it looks like it actually was posted.
    – Tim
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 11:33
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    "Could you please maybe edit your post" is too wishy-washy. The site should not play Mother May I with its users, new or otherwise. "Your question was put on hold, please edit it to ____ and it can be reopened." Where the blank is whatever action is appropriate (add code, narrow scope, etc). The form of "[Declarative, but firm statement], please [concrete action] [desired outcome]" maintains a level of decorum without looking like its begging. We have standards and the automatic messages should reflect and encourage those standards. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:30
  • I think that there are two theories in operation .. one is that a closed question that the asker wants to improve should be edited and the other that it should be deleted. This is really contradictory and the messaging that users get is also contradictory. I prefer the edit model because they can get feedback, but it is very hard for a question to get reopened.
    – Elin
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 20:29
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    I find it very frustrating as someone who knows the correct answer when a question has been closed based on incorrect duplicates.
    – Elin
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 20:32
  • Whether a question should be edited or deleted depends on the question. There are okay questions asked badly. Then there's stuff that has no chance. We should distinguish between them. If the question is just a terrible mistake with no hope of recovery we should encourage them to delete it. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 20:35
  • See my meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366779/341994
    – matt
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 3:45
  • "Congratulations! This question already has an answer here!" maybe that's just me but I hate this. First of all - too many exclamation marks. Developers really like putting exclamations in their messages which...often confuses the message. Are you really that excited about that message? I can just picture somebody jumping up and down as a torrent of words hit you in an attempt to convey that message. Second, it really seems a bit condescending "Congratulations, genius - your question isn't really that profound". I understand that's not what's meant but it could also be read that way.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 7:40
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    "Good news - some of our users think your question already has an answer. It happens all the time. Please take time to read the question and answer. We think you'll see the connection even if the other question doesn't seem to ask exactly the same thing as yours. If you read the question and answer and you're certain that it's not related and you can't get what you need from it, please update your question to highlight the difference." 1/2 Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 14:44
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    2/2 Then we give them a way to "contest" the duplicate that doesn't sound like a complaint. "Someone said that my question was a duplicate but why did they say that - it's totally different!" Sometimes duplicates are duplicates. Other times they're totally wrong because someone read too fast and jumped to a conclusion. When that happens, we shouldn't make the user feel like they're begging and complaining. Everybody wins, or at least has a chance to win. Identifying duplicates is good for everyone. False matches are expected. Find a way to route them toward a positive outcome. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 14:48
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Though I can't divine the plans of the company, I feel it is worth highlighting what I believe to be, as far as this discussion is concerned, the key passage of the post:

Over the next few quarters, we’re going to be taking a step back and re-evaluating how we deliver feedback to users about their questions. We want to make sure people are getting necessary feedback without feeling called out or publicly embarrassed. We will be working on new paths to improve content quality and reduce friction between people. Our goal is to have the question asking process be painless and beneficial for new users and Stack Overflow veterans alike.

The primary concern thus appears to be how the community feedback is delivered to posters. I expect, and hope, addressing that will involve features in the vein of:

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    Staging area for new askers? Not convinced that it's viable.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:54
  • @Makoto It is a tricky proposal, as discussed in Pekka's feature request, but I'd love to see it being given a shot.
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:56
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    Isn't that what the wizard was meant to be in some capacity? Or am I seeing "staging" area a bit less literal?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 16:59
  • No, the wizard is not the same thing. It's more like the "kinder, gentler" version of Stack Overflow, with online etiquette/protocol guidance.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:00
  • So maybe my interpretation is too loose. If the objective is "guidance" then the wizard also guides new users to the site. A staging area would provide more feedback beyond that, but I'm reducing them to effectively the same thing in principle. They're both guides meant to get a new user familiar and comfortable with being here. In that vein I still don't believe that they're viable. Yet.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:02
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    @Makoto Pekka's proposal was about new askers having the option to initially have their questions shown only to guide users, who would assist with putting it into shape. Participation would be voluntary on both sides.
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:04
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    Hm. Okay then. I think I was seeing it similar since in both cases, participation is voluntary, and in the interest of playing Devil's Advocate, if someone doesn't have to do something, it's not likely going to get done. That's why I don't see it as viable long-term.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:06
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    The idea of a "staging area" was mentioned in the blog comments, and I considered to propose it, here, but Pekka already did that long ago. The justification would be that, according to the blog post, the feeling of not being welcome comes from "lots of people publicly disagreeing with you". So there are not many solutions for that. 1. Make it impossible for people to disagree with you. No downvotes, comments or close votes any more. That's not an option. (I hope...). 2. Make sure that the disagreement is not expressed by many people, and more importantly: not publicly. [cont'd]
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 20:00
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    [cont'd]: One could now nitpick of whether downvotes are "disagreement". I'd say they are a message - phrased harshly: "You did something bad/stupid/wrong". This is not "disagreement", but equally (or even more) distressing when it's visible publicly. The conclusion could be that people should try harder to not do something "bad/stupid/wrong", but that won't happen, for sure. So even though SO should be a Q/A archive and not a "personal tutoring site", the Q/A might be drowned in bad question unless some sort of tutoring happens. @Makoto Who's going to do it is the crucial question here.
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 20:07
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    I'd be interested if up and down votes were replaced by symbols or messages that indicate there may be an issue with your post, maybe with a more neutral color like grey, or "warning" color like yellow instead of red, then give people the option to change the downvote view vs symbol view, and make the symbol view default, and don't tell the users they can do this outside of meta. That way people will just see "there's an issue with my post" rather than "5 people hate me already! f*** this site". if the post had a net positive up vote ratio, then you would just see up-votes.
    – Krupip
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 21:02
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    [1/2] @Marco13 Good analysis, though I think the rabbit hole goes a little deeper. While the site aims at building an impersonal Q&A archive, it does so through a process which is very much personal, by taking in questions from individuals and prominently displaying their user cards (contrast that with Wikipedia, which has a process about as impersonal as it can reasonably get). As experience shows, conveying this dual nature of the site, with all of its nuances, to new users is hard, except perhaps when they happen to be enthusiastically committed to the SO model from the first moment.
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 23:10
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    [2/2] That's why improvements in messaging and guidance are needed. It is also worth emphasising (and this has to do with the voluntary nature of Pekka's proposal -- cc @Makoto ) that this isn't merely about keeping the influx of bad questions under control. Bona fide vampires won't care about any guidance, and a large share of them will ignore any messaging. Rather, initiatives and proposals like Pekka's aim at bringing an oft overlooked third group into the fold: people who could, within a reasonable time frame, thrive in the site, but instead give up after an early bad experience.
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 23:10
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    Recent discussions have shown that it's not a rabbit hole... it's a rabbit canyon ... full of snakes ;-) But for one, people always have the option to stay an anonymous user1234. Then, even though setbacks may still be discouraging, the element of being "shamed" publicly and personally does not apply. Further: What is the "time frame" that you are talking about? People can quietly accommodate to the site, reading, observing, learning and understanding the "spirit", before asking their first question. I think one source of the problem exactly is that they are not doing that...
    – Marco13
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 0:47
  • @Marco13 [1/2] People can do such things, but they often won't, and sometimes we can hardly blame them. In particular, there is any number of understandable reasons why someone might not choose an anonymous handle (including simply not having thought of the idea).
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:07
  • [2/2] By timeframe, I mean how much time (and, correlatedly, guidance effort) is needed for the user to get the hang of how the site works. For instance, a careless student posting homework dumps might eventually grow into a stellar contributor, but it will likely take them a long time to care about and internalise the principles of the site. In contrast, an user acting in good faith but who didn't get the message about, say, opinion-based questions the first time might need just a nudge to set them in the right track. Users like that are the ones who can really benefit from on-site guidance.
    – duplode
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:08
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TL;DR: The Q&A format will remain exactly the same; it'll just look nicer.


I read the blog post, and I think this is great. We've got two problems:

  • High rep users are keeping the site clean, but are being told they're being unfriendly.
  • New users who post bad questions¹ experience this (necessary) moderation as unfriendly.

We need high-rep users to keep the site clean, and we can't make drastic changes to the way the site behaves because that ruins the Stack Overflow model that's served us so well. We can't keep telling high-rep users to be more friendly, because downvotes and close votes appear inherently unfriendly.

Something we haven't tried is just making close votes and down votes look nicer.

Constructive criticism is useful. It's even better if you can make it personal, kind and specific. If we can tweak the UI to let new users know:

  • Stack Overflow's aim is to produce a collection of high-quality, canonical Q&A pairs, and moderator actions should be viewed through this lens.
  • Duplicates are useful, since next time somebody searches what you searched, they'll find this question and be pointed to the correct answer.
  • If your question's too broad to be answered, please edit it to be a specific, answerable question.
  • If it's unclear what you're asking… actually, this one's pretty good at the moment.
  • Downvotes suggest that a question is unclear or not useful – improving the question will make these go away.

then we can make new users less annoying, and guarantee them a better experience of the site. Reducing short-hand, and explaining what things mean (e.g. off-topic → off-topic for this site; too broad → too broad to be answered) will make these actions seem less arbitrary, and reduce frustration by suggesting an action that the asker can take (e.g. off-topic for this site implies there are other sites, instead of a paper-pushing refusal to help).

I'm no UX expert, but I think this idea is genius. Teaching people is hard, but making the knowledge of our format (and rationales for moderation actions) implicit in the UI will reduce friction with new users – people don't read instructions, but they tend to pick up on the implications of what they do read better than an explanation of that implication.


Post-script feature request idea

Regarding downvotes, I think it'd be nice to be able to be notified when questions I've downvoted get edited – I don't want to leave a downvote on a question if it's no longer bad, and it'd be immensely encouraging if an edit meant the downvotes started going away. (I currently use new tabs for this, but on some devices I don't have endless tabs.) I don't want this clogging up my inbox or achievements pane, though, so perhaps a new (opt-in, probably) section akin to the Moderator Diamond would be good.

But seriously, I can't begin to describe how encouraging this would be.

This is available (sort of) via a userscript! (thanks Makyen)


¹: That's two revisions of my first question, by the way. I never felt personally unwelcomed (probably because I'd made anonymous edits in the past), but I did feel that my question didn't shape up to standards, and that once I'd made my question better that I was being unfairly judged (it "still wasn't good enough").

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    Also, the notification when a question has been updated? That should have happened a long time ago.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:05
  • @RobertHarvey Rewording stuff to be self-explanatory, and making close messages more content-like, is probably sufficient. (I basically wrote this on empathetic nostalgia, thinking back to my first question experience on Stack Overflow and then, in that mindset, thinking about the UI elements in that image.) Adding this as a "new-user mode", and having an unlock for an "established user mode" switch, is one way of doing it.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:05
  • 1
    Also, yes. Please sneak into the SO offices and put that on the dev room board. They can't fire you.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:06
  • 7
    I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I think we've gotten to the point where we need to create an alternate universe Stack Overflow that is only visible to new users who get downvotes, an alternate universe whose sole purpose is to make new users feel better about themselves.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:10
  • @RobertHarvey We don't have to go that far. We just need to make feelings match intentions by changing the UI, and implement the downvote-then-edit notifier.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:12
  • 4
    Seriously, try the unicorns, kittens, puppies, etc. Let them choose in advance which they prefer. It would be funny. Instead of getting downvotes you get flowers or clown fish. Same message, but it makes people smile as they curse us. Everything is better when you're smiling. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:21
  • @ScottHannen I have a feeling you're not taking this seriously. ☺
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:22
  • 3
    Interesting that we both picked on the difficulty of reversing downvotes. I really hope this is on Sara and the team's list of problems to tackle, because right now we punish users who haven't learned the system yet the same way as users who just can't be bothered. We need to make sure the effort of transforming a bad question to a good one is rewarded, not just grudgingly accepted, with the question crawling back up to a score of zero.
    – IMSoP
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 15:44
  • 1
    @wizzwizz4 - I'm not kidding. Only the user who asked needs to see it. We're sorry, your question isn't the sort we can answer on Stack Overflow. But here's a macaw swinging upside-down. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 18:33
  • 2
    So that you know, you can get what you're asking for in your second section with the use of a userscript: Get a list of posts you've voted on that have been edited
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 20:00
  • 1
    Let's take the idea of unicorns and rainbows a step further. I'm just brainstorming. Imagine if you ask a question and you're given a choice of pictures. "Sometimes there are issues with a question - it might be unclear, lacking detail, or not a good fit for this site. The community might have some feedback for you. Which of these encouraging/funny/comforting pictures would you like to see as reminder that we mean well and it's not personal?" Now we've set the expectation. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 14:58
  • 1
    I realized something while typing the above. A principle of website UX is that a site should have a "voice," like a tone. Look at IBM, Starbucks, and Woot to see a spectrum from deadly serious to casual and silly. Stack Overflow's QA has no voice. It doesn't know how it wants to sound. It substitutes the voices of its individual users - cheerful, serious, annoyed, friendly but having a bad day, etc. Different from one tag to the next. That's a mixed bag. Good UX includes a site setting its own tone. You can't choose a voice and expect thousands of users to somehow reflect it. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:02
  • @ScottHannen That's a silly idea, but it's not a bad one.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:08
  • 2
    Sorry, one more. That's the disconnect. Whether it's the case or not, SO users perceive that SO expects them to express a particular voice, or tone. That's going to create friction. It's impossible and unrealistic. And I don't even know if everyone sees that fault line. The frustration is expressed as "They want us to be welcoming." That's a good goal, but you can't put that on the users, and I don't know if that's even the intent. All you can ask of the users is not to be snarky or rude, which is reasonable. But the site itself needs to own being "welcoming." Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:13
  • @ScottHannen I think you've summed it up quite nicely, there.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:47
18

Based on prior very similar experience I think we can expect that nothing substantial will change. They may even start implementing something advertised as a solution to the problem but it will be abandoned midway.

That past experience I am talking about is a . Worth noting that problem it intended to solve is the same, reduce friction between veteran users and inexperienced askers. Because of that it seems particularly useful to recall how it started and ended.


The way how triage was sold to us from the start was, it was intended to make troublesome questions visible only to users willing to work and review these. This was supposed to help both groups - first, it would spare veterans (willing to deal only with appropriate questions) frustration of seeing flood of poor ones and second, it would relieve askers from votes down and snarky comments from frustrated veterans.

Further down this way, askers of troublesome questions were expected to be getting guidance on how to improve - again, from users interested in giving such guidance (in H&I or close reviews) - without frustrating those willing to just answer appropriate questions.

The way it ended, we all can see now. Triaged questions still leak to active views (probably tag pages) and the friction and frustration for both groups of users remains the same, nothing has improved. Integration with close review hasn't been done and as a result, questions triaged as unsalvageable hang and drown in review queue and eventually expire thus depriving askers guidance on how they could improve.


You see, back then it all ended in One Big Nothing and I see no reasons why it will be different this time.

The problem of friction today remains the same as it was when they started working on triage. It didn't get any easier. And they throw away all past efforts and start from the scratch without even attempting to leverage prior attempts. You see, nothing has changed from previous time so it looks only natural to expect that result will be the same as in previous time - that is, one big nothing.

A while ago I wrote that repetitive fruitless crusades for friendliness start looking like mere tricks to gain points in some internal company performance reviews. This time it feels even more so. Maybe we need to be less gullible and stop treating these as serious attempts to really improve things.

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    The blog posts suggests something a bit more fundamental: that the UI itself is flawed.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 21:16
  • 1
    "You see, nothing has changed from previous time so it looks only natural to expect that result will be the same as in previous time." Was there a previous time the previous time? Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 22:44
  • 3
    Triage really sounds like a good idea. A pity it was not implemented like this. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 8:26
13

I feel like the wording of this question somewhat misinterprets, or over-interprets, the blog post.

This image apparently illustrates what Stack Exchange thinks of its own model nowadays.

The image attempts to illustrate what Stack Exchange, and particularly Stack Overflow, feels like to a new user. Nobody's claiming that these labels are objectively true, just that if you come here and don't get things right first time, this is the impression you're left with.

But all of these design elements are critical parts of what differentiates Stack Exchange from other forum environments. This is what Stack Overflow's success has been built on.

Let's test each of the elements against this claim:

  • Negative score. Scoring is definitely an intrinsic part of the site, although scoring of answers maybe works better than scoring of questions, in terms of cream rising to the top. It's not clear what a user should do if their question reaches a score of -7, though, other than give up - they could completely rewrite it, but there's no way for the score to be reset unless all 7 voters reassess it.
  • Placed on hold as too broad. The "on hold" concept is an earlier attempt to improve the feedback to users while discouraging answers on poor questions. Closing questions sounds fundamental, but the way it works has changed and could change again.
  • Deleted by moderators. It's definitely right that things should be tidied away if they're not going to be useful to the site, but again there's plenty that can change in how that happens. It's also notable here that the negative rating, closure, and deletion are all actually trying to do the same thing, but are shown to users as three independent processes; can they be combined in some way so that the user sees one piece of constructive feedback of how to do better next time?
  • List of people. This is not fundamental at all, it's just part of the presentation. It's supposed to show the user how the system works, but it's perfectly reasonable to ask if there's different ways to explain what happened. I'd also note here that new users will put these names in the same category as moderators - they don't know or care about reputation vs election, they just see "users who can do things to my posts that I can't do to theirs, or even to my own".
  • Comments from other users. This is the trickiest one, because it's social, and subjective. However, comments are often used just to repeat the same things shown in the previous pieces of UI; maybe again they could be better integrated?
  • Comments from the asker. The commenting system here is almost deliberately crippled; it's kind of fundamental to the platform that comments are second-class, and discussions are discouraged. However when trying to improve a question, this can be really frustrating, for everyone - out of date comments hang around, replies are to people not comments (if users guess how to use them at all), and it's hard to filter unhelpful comments out, because comments don't have negative scores. That doesn't mean we should just give up and become a forum, but given this part of the system is one new users will encounter early on, maybe it should see some love.

Over all, I don't agree with the premise of this question that changing the impression conveyed in that screenshot would be a radical overhaul of the whole site, and shake it to its very foundations. There are some things that could be done just by changing wording and moving UI elements around.

Imagine for a second that screen, but with the feedback arranged coherently rather than all over the screen:

  • "Your question needs some work before it's ready for answers".
  • The post is currently { on hold / closed to answers / hidden } based on reviews from other users. (Only display one such status.)
  • Here are some suggestions users have made to improve the question. You can discuss these suggestions here, but please make the changes to the question itself, as those answering may not see this discussion. (Include close reasons here, and lead into a comment UI.)
  • If you think you have resolved the issues, click here to notify the users who reviewed it, so they can open it for answers.
  • Maybe don't show the score at all at this stage - does it really matter of the question reached -5 or -7 before being closed? If the user makes an effort to improve it, should voting carry on independent of efforts to reopen it? Perhaps the score should be reset to zero if successfully reopened.
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    "If you think you have resolved the issues, click here to notify the users who reviewed it, so they can open it for answers." I think this is an important point. Also information about how to reply to people in comments. Most have no clue that it's necessary to use @UserName; in a "forum" everyone in a discussion is automatically notified. Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 16:12
  • 1
    @CindyMeister Yep, like I say, it's sort of deliberate that the comment system is a bit rubbish, because we want to force people to write questions and answers, but the way notifications work (or don't) sometimes leads to new users shouting into the void waiting for someone to see their comment or edit out of dumb luck - "Hello! I'm trying to be better! Why are you all ignoring me? Anyone?"
    – IMSoP
    Commented Jul 21, 2019 at 16:17
  • 2
    "Your question is on the way to being ready for answers". Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 5:16
-6

First off, I fully agree with the observations made in the blog post. We have many ways of telling people that their question is bad (downvotes, close, deletion, as well as comments or even edits). We also have a couple to show the opposite (upvotes, stars, and of course useful answers) but you rarely get a mix of both.

I am also very glad that we got some official recognition of "people are scared by SO" not being the same as "our community/users fail to be welcoming", which appears to have been the conclusion previously.


It's been on my mind to suggest a change to the voting system, and this might be a good opportunity. In my opinion, we should focus on the users that are trying to ask good questions but fail to do so (rather than those who put in no effort in the first place). They will have optimized their question in the aspects that they understood to matter (e.g. described the problem, researched, added tags), but there are a lot of aspects to consider and people are encouraged to downvote if any of them is incomplete - which is likely the case for questions asked by new users (e.g. insufficient [mcve]).

Let's look at the current tooltips for the up- and downvotes:

enter image description here

This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear

This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful.

There are already three criteria mentioned here. What should I do if one of those three is insufficiently addressed in the question? According to the particular choice of "and" and "or", I should downvote unless all of them are good.

This makes for a terrible learning experience - you did your best and all you get is an indiscriminate -1 from lots of people because there's something you missed. Yes, there are comments to give more detailed feedback, but it doesn't change the inherent negativity of getting downvoted (see again the blog post). It can also be a tough call for the voter - if a post clearly has effort in it but falls short on one criterion, do you downvote?

I think the experience could be improved significantly if each aspect could be voted on separately (which could be aggregated into an overall score).

As a start, one could directly translate the three aspects mentioned in the current tooltips:

   /\     The question is clear
Clarity
   \/     The question is unclear

   /\     This question can help future readers
Usefulness
   \/     This question is of no use to future readers

   /\     This question shows appropriate research effort
Researched
   \/     This question lacks appropriate research effort

This provides actionable feedback for the asker - they are directly made aware of whatever aspect they neglected (which would currently require comments or close votes). More importantly, it gives the opportunity to give positive feedback even for questions that don't fully meet our mark, which is currently 100% absent (or rather relies on the variance in individual voting preferences).

It's not a fully fleshed-out idea yet, but maybe this is something to consider when an "overhaul" is on the horizon.

There are most likely several other aspects one could include and add or dock points for (e.g. for [mcve]?). Also, the different close reasons overlap with this - merging these systems would reduce the UI estate that is used to "scold" the asker (as lamented in the "contentious" picture). Enough people downvoted for "not enough research effort" and provided a duplicate? Close as a duplicate with little noise. But this is not the primary objective here - different axes of feedback (some of which can be positive even for lackluster questions) is.

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    I hope I get 3x as many votes so I can downvote 3x as much... Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 8:59
  • 1
    'focus on the users that are trying to ask good questions' Do. Or do not. There is no try.
    – user11044402
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 12:07
  • 2
    @LutzHorn Seriously? You think all users can be divided into those who get everything right first time, and those who are beyond all help?
    – IMSoP
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:33
  • @LutzHorn: No. But they can be divided into those who have the willingness and ability to adapt to their surroundings, and those who don't.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:44
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey (Your comment reads as if you intended to reply to IMSoP - I will assume so in my reply). My suggestion is specifically for the former group. But just that they do want to adapt to their surroundings doesn't mean they are immune to the almost exclusively negative reaction to their initial imperfections. And the whole point of the suggestion is to make the desired path of adaption implicit in the feedback they get. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:50
  • 4
    @LutzHorn I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that it's impossible for someone to genuinely try but ultimately fail at asking a good question. I see it happen every day... Do you want examples? Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:53
  • 5
    In my experience, those who complain the loudest about their Stack Exchange experience are also the ones least likely to modify their behavior.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:54
  • The only problem I see is that voting three times as much is a lot of work. Some people may decide not to vote at all then. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 8:32
  • 1
    It might be interesting to combine this with an official "sandbox" area: let new users draft posts, and give experienced users tools to point to particular aspects that they should improve. For the experienced user, it's more effort than "DV, VTC, move on"; but less effort than engaging in a long discussion. For the new user, it's a bit impersonal, but potentially less discouraging than the current UX signals of "just not good enough".
    – IMSoP
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 8:48
-14

The frequency of the person asking the question knowing the answer is low and when presented with the answer people (including the asker) don't always know if the answer is any good - that results in informed votes being diluted with uninformed votes, a frustrating experience for the people whom take the time to answer questions for free.

It's also frustrating for persons whom search through existing questions trying to sieve through the multitude of answers to determine if they can distill a solution for their own situation. Some people are good at using the search tools, on and off site, others simply ask again, or in the wrong place.

The frequency of the person answering the question knowing the answer is usually quite good, but that relies on having a clear question and an understanding of what level of detail the asker requires in the answer - otherwise unsuitable answers are offered and must be refined after a series of back-and-forth, the very model we seek to avoid and a frustrating experience for the people whom take the time to answer questions for free.

The solution offered is always a blog post outlining our shortcomings and what we can do to improve the experience of people wanting free help, served just the way they like it.

The newbie experience (a driving analogy):

  • It's never the driving instructor's fault

  • It's probably not the fault of the vehicle design

  • It's very seldom the fault of the people whom designed the road

  • The passengers are by default blameless, except in exceptional circumstances

  • The blame must fall upon the driver, and what ails them

From the MADD Campaign "Glasses" where drivers are depicted as lacking good judgment

Many questions can be answered by reading information that is already available: whether it's the help files here or elsewhere, a search (off site) using well chosen search terms which leads here or elsewhere, or applying what is already known.

Much as one might suggest that this problem of newcomers not understanding what is offered is a subject that couldn't be answered by looking at existing writings, another round of change is always the offered solution. Off sites blogs are often unkind or detailed in their perception of their experience here, while on site blogs write kindly of our efforts. The message is the same - yet another change will fix things, we'll need to redouble our efforts until it's right.

            The Finger of Blame

Deciding whom to blame, and the inevitable outcome - Good Bye

Some people only learn by repetition, but that's usually repetition of the same thing and usually not repeatedly offering a new way of presenting a different example. That simply leaves them to distill the common thread of the varied examples, a skill that they probably did not excell at in the first place.

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    I think there's a good post in here somewhere, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what you're trying to say.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 21:25
  • @RobertHarvey That point is made throughout the post, though I don't think rolling back the mess Peter made will assist.
    – Rob
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 21:58
  • 16
    I read your entire post, and still don't get the point. Can you summarize it in a couple sentences? I see some anecdotal statements, but no conclusion or clear call to action.
    – mason
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 22:00
  • 17
    I'm having a really hard time understanding how you can classify Peter Mortensen's edit as making a mess. I think it was a mess to begin with and Peter improved. It was still a mess after Peter's edit, but it was definitely better than before his edit and after your rollback. The community is telling you that your post is hard if not impossible to read and understand. As someone once told me, if there is a problem between you and everyone else in a community, it probably isn't them, and maybe you should try looking at the situation from the standpoint that you might be wrong.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 23:31
  • I'll add my voice to not understanding the post. The GIF was also particularly confusing - it's so slow that I didn't even get it's animated. As for the edits...aside from the edit that removed "satanic references" (what?) the seemed good.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 7:58
  • @TinyGiant If you review the edit history you will note that Peter made a trivial edit to unnecessarily change the tense of a few words and add a spelling error, over on the main Meta.SE he edits closed posts causing them to re-enter the queue. We've pinged about that and he doesn't reply. Simply accepting, rejecting or rolling back is what we are left with. Removing his edit privileges has been discussed. As to your last comment, compare our flair. As pointed out by VLAZ it is clear that some have clairified that they are being rude. For the others, ask to abolish the CoC; or see a lawyer.
    – Rob
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 12:26
  • 2
    I don't know about any other site, but we appreciate Peter's improvements 'round these parts.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 14:42
  • @TinyGiant - Politely, you have good rep. on one site, well done. So rather than explaining here I'll help elsewhere. I retired several months ago when I hit 20K and I'm almost 29K Flair; so I gain over 1K per month, but I don't get that from writing comments here. Instead I do something else, which is what I'm off to go do. If the answer in my Profile doesn't explain everything that's how it goes. You don't think that there are sites where I see a question or answer that I don't understand, well that's not true. Do I take it up with the person that I don't understand what's being said, no.
    – Rob
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:24
  • 1
    So everyone else in the world is wrong and you're right? Good luck with that.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 15:27
  • @TinyGiant That's not what I'm saying.
    – Rob
    Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:18
  • 2
    @Rob - look at the upvotes for the first three comments. Sometimes people agree and something they disagree. They don't usually comment to say that they can't understand what you're saying. "Much as one might suggest that this problem of newcomers not understanding what is offered is a subject that couldn't be answered by looking at existing writings, another round of change is always the offered solution." Sorry, we just can't understand what these sentences are saying. Paragraph four is followed by a list. I cannot see the connection between that paragraph and the list that follows. Commented Jul 22, 2019 at 16:40
-19

@RobertHarvey, thanks for your great question. One thing I heard as feedback when I got my role is that in the past we've sometimes talked about things like this more openly, but as a consequence, if things aren't built exactly as they were talked about (this happens often if you are using an iterative process) people are disappointed and express frustration that a commitment that has been broken.

In order to ensure that I'm not committing to things we haven't delivered yet, I'm not going to be prescriptive as to HOW these things will be fixed. Like I said in the post, we have an amazing PM, a data team, UX researchers, CMs, designers, and engineers that will be working together to build and deliver these changes and I'm going to get out of their way so they can do just that.

What I can say is we're all being super conscious about what makes Stack Overflow special and making sure to keep the things that set us apart and improve the things that can be better. The internet has evolved a lot over the past 10 years, and we can use a lot of the learnings that have disseminated throughout different communities to our advantage as we design these changes.

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    I get the feeling that a lot of users see this as a self-resolving issue: People who do not take the time to read the asking guidelines get downvoted/shouted at/their questions closed and are therefore discouraged from participating, and those people would similarly not be a good fit for a site where taking time to understand the asking process is essential. How would you respond to that? Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:13
  • 56
    While I can understand your desire to not run into the issue you mention, my impression is that there is far more backlash from rolling out significant changes without discussing them first. At a minimum, it's usually a good idea to have the changed version available as a preference option and get feedback prior to having the changes go live throughout the site. Note that this isn't a commentary on how good the people are who are making the changes/doing the design, but is a indicator of how much SE cares about it's existing users, which is an area where SE has been having image issues.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:13
  • 38
    In addition to @Makyen's excellent observations, I would point out that, in the past, you've successfully created new features without asking on Meta about them first, rolled out a beta version, and got incredibly valuable feedback on meta, without creating a firestorm. Meta is terrible at doing design (always has been), but it's great for fine-tuning your features with the help of the people who care the most about seeing them succeed.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:21
  • 12
    You've done a great job with the blog in recognizing the problem that needs to be solved. I think most of the complaints now are from the apparent lack of a plan or direction to actually solve that problem. To be fair, you so say it's coming in the future. It's just that a lot of us who've been waiting for years have gotten a bit impatient to say the least.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:27
  • 58
    As to the woes of new users, let me just say this: we can't be everyone's therapist. There will always be people who don't like your approach (no matter what it is), especially those who have a sense of entitlement. Regardless of how nice you are, saying "no" to someone's question will always be seen as curation by some, and as a put-off by others.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:28
  • 41
    I feel the swing to complete vagueness and refusing to commit to anything is actually hindering you, Sara; the trust that SE had engendered isn't something that can be spent frivolously anymore, and you can't count on infinite patience anymore while you work on these things in the dark. We've been told to wait for months; at what point do we get more information? If you want people to buy in, you need to give them more than this.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:37
  • 23
    @fbueckert: Perhaps the admission by Stack Exchange that their problems don't arise solely from a cadre of mean-spirited veteran users is enough, for now.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 17:40
  • 12
    Going off the extremely vague post, I'm probably not alone in reading into that more than necessary. "Overhaul" in my head involves changing the core mechanics, and that worries me. While I get the main goal you're trying to reach is better feedback for askers, at what cost? Will the users be excluded from that? By improving the way people give each other feedback, we can improve question quality without putting the burden on our users to police the website. makes it seem like users will get reduced moderation abilities, because <something else> replaces the need for it. Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:05
  • 17
    Like I said, I'm probably reading more into this than what's intended, but when you're promising changes so big they're worth calling an overhaul, and promising it in 6-8 quarters with an undefined meaning of what the final outcome will be, at least to me, that sounds like a complete re-write into a Quora/Yahoo Answers/etc-style site, mainly because one of the core issues in this question was left unanswered: What are Stack Exchange's plans for this overhaul, and can it be done without turning Stack Overflow into another Quora or Yahoo Answers? Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:05
  • 11
    That being said, for all I know, "overhaul" implies scaling the website to its current need, and not a complete change of the core mechanics and moving away from the original purpose of the site, but there's too few details to back that up, especially when we don't get any answers as to what it implies. Details can be worked out, but the general implication of an overhaul should still be available early. What are you moving towards, and at what cost to the current site mechanics? Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:08
  • 27
    Do you have an examples of times where there was backlash from the community due to a difference between a proposed design and the actual implementation? I can only think of cases where there was backlash due to the community not being informed about features before they were rolled out, or cases where a feature was proposed, problems were pointed out, and then none of those concerns were addressed before rollout (and then the problems pointed out in advance came to pass, after the company ignored the warnings it would happen).
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:27
  • 10
    I think the good-faith interpretation is that "we don't 100% know", @Zoe: it's obvious that things needs to change. We've all recognized this for years now: the asking process sets folks up for failure, the closing system is less effective than it needs to be for the purpose it is put to (JNat has some stats for you BTW, he'll post when he gets back), the only mechanisms we have for providing feedback are roughly the equivalent of a conversation in the middle of the street... But it's a complex system and changes need to be made carefully. So we're starting slowly: nailing down the problems.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:36
  • 7
    After thinking some more, the only feature that comes to mind of a situation where there was much backlash for a feature being different than an initial proposal is the Help and Improvement queue. The initial plan (before the beta was even rolled out) included all sorts of lofty ideals about what the queue might do, and only a fraction of that ended up being implemented, and there was backlash from that from users (myself included) saying that major problems would result due to the missing features.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:40
  • 10
    Of course, it quickly turned into, and stayed, a mess, so I don't think the take away here is, "Discussing ideas of unimplemented features is a bad idea." The problem with that example was that important features necessary for the success of the feature were cut.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 19, 2019 at 18:40
  • 33
    Listen to the community. We are the ones running the site.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 20, 2019 at 1:39

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