47

I recently had this interaction with a low rep user who posted a question as an answer:

I then referenced How should one ask for clarification on a question if they can't yet comment?

After this they promptly deleted their answer (So far they have not deleted their account)

(This user has also been registered for almost two years so this wasn't someone who just registered today)

As you can see the user left feeling angry and was considering leaving SO.

Is there any way this could have been handled better so that the user didn't leave feeling this way?

EDIT: Probably notable that someone had already asked in the comments about what the error was

21
  • 28
    Is there any way this could have been handled better so that the user didn't leave feeling this way? Short of removing the 50-point comment threshold - probably not really, no.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 16:07
  • 14
    I tried to formulate a very nicely and respectfully worded explanation of why the threshold exists even though it is a roadblock to perfectly legitimate contributions in this FAQ but it's unlikely to change the mind of a user already bummed out by this
    – Pekka
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 16:09
  • 11
    I feel sad when this happens. It's not just a few new users who are only looking to take, but I see it often from people looking to help. My action would have been to flag as NAA and, if the comment is helpful, post it as a comment myself. And no more. It may take 10 seconds extra, but I'm happy to donate this time in the hope it alleviates some pain.
    – jpp
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 16:14
  • 64
    Don't worry. That's not their first or only account. I may have to clean some of those up now.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 16:18
  • 5
    Note the fact this user may be trolling wouldn't change what I'd do. It's like a negative feedback loop. Any response, however useful, paradoxically, seems to feed them.
    – jpp
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 16:57
  • 27
    I really like that this question frames the problem as "how can we improve the experience for users?" rather than "how can we make users do the Right Thing?". Commented May 11, 2018 at 17:43
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters I assume that there's not really a way for us to know that without having moderator superpowers, though, is there? Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:58
  • 12
    Yet another way the site isn't "friendly" to beginners...
    – rogerdpack
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 21:16
  • 1
    @EJoshuaS: No, there isn't.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 22:09
  • 27
    There is no solution to this problem. It's impossible to both be friendly and welcoming to new users and also prevent them from participating. Stackexchange needs to stop being schizophrenic and decide whether it wants to be welcoming to newbies and allow low quality, or hostile to newbies in pursuit of quality. The two goals are absolutely mutually exclusive and it's asinine to think they aren't.
    – barbecue
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 3:33
  • 2
    @barbecue: it's not "asinine" to think they are unrelated, no. The "be nice" discussions will come up periodically, and we should let them. I don't think each side of the debate ought to police what views are reasonable, or spend time lobbing rocks at the other side. [cont.]
    – halfer
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 8:55
  • 2
    Under Makoto's answer, someone has given an excellent suggestion: get rid of the 50 rep limit and use machine learning to combat low-quality comments. Now, I don't know if that would work, but it sounds worthy of SO research to me, and shows that there may be a way in which the site can be welcoming and maintain quality standards. There are sure to be other practical ideas in the same vein.
    – halfer
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 8:57
  • 6
    @halfer We could also try a sort of compromise. Keep the 50 rep limit, but allow each new user ,say, five comments. If they receive upvotes on their comments (Indicating that they are of value) then they be allotted more comments. If they don't get upvoted their comments will run out and they will have to earn the 50 rep to comment again. Do you think that's a viable option?
    – GBlodgett
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 11:36
  • 5
    @barbecue: heh, I have seen several times that folks on each side of the Be Nice debate have attempted to paint their own views as "rational" and "undisputable" etc. and, by implication, the views of the other party as stupid, beyond the pale, extreme, unpopular, etc etc. I don't think this is a good method of finding the solution - it feels like the kind of divisive language that we need to try to move away from. (It's @halfer if you want to ping me - tab autocomplete is available).
    – halfer
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 12:20
  • 5
    I advocate against anyone, on either side, taking strong views that do not appear to take the other side's view into account. People who are Be Nicers need to show how more welcoming approaches are not going to cause a drop in quality. Folks who are Blunt Speakers or Quality Advocates could perhaps show they they are in favour of being nice too. If you feel strongly about this, perhaps you could write an answer post (here or on another Meta question) that tries to balance these competing themes?
    – halfer
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 12:23

6 Answers 6

66

Not really, no. There's not much we can do to prevent people from acting on a whim and deleting their account if they're unhappy with the policies of the site.

If they don't want to invest the time and energy into getting the 50 reputation required to comment, then that's their choice, but it doesn't give them free rein to comment in answers, so you at least did something positive there.

They deleted that comment-as-an-answer, so it's fair to simply move on. They're not interested in abiding by our policies, so I don't see much incentive in worrying about how much nicer we could've been to them.

14
  • 12
    This is a fine analysis on an individual basis and I don't disagree with it, but perhaps it would be worth considering whether the system itself could be changed to help avoid this situation? Asking for clarification is a Good Thing that leads to good answers and good triage. Perhaps allowing new users to comment, but with an increased character limit, might help? Or even trialling a machine learning approach to filtering useless comments? It's easy to forget as an established user just how restrictive SO feels when you first start, it's extremely frustrating.
    – user234461
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 17:12
  • 10
    @user234461: There isn't a system in the world that can be designed and implemented to prevent trolling or ragequitting. That's all this was in this case. It's not like the OP was particularly rude in their assertion that answers aren't meant for comments, and it's not like we should really expend the energy on trying to "help" everyone who doesn't want to take heed of our policies and respect them. We have the barrier in place for a reason. (It's also not that hard to earn 50 rep.)
    – Makoto
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 17:18
  • 2
    @Makoto Such a system wouldn't stop trolling, but as we have just seen, trolling and rudeness are not restricted to comments (or to low-rep users for that matter!) I was thinking of the kind of comment that's usually deployed to argue for the 50 rep limit - "+1", "thanks" etc - but besides, the ML suggestion was really tangential to my main point. I knew you'd jump on it though. :-)
    – user234461
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 17:22
  • 1
    @user234461 IIRC, the 50 rep limit was put in place because there's no good review queue / etc. for comments like there is for answers. I find it very unfortunate that there's no review system because the current setup assumes that new users will be able to find non-duplicate questions that are popular enough to get upvotes, that they can answer without asking the OP for clarification that haven't already been answered by a FGITW (from somebody who's been in this position, I'd guess that these days there's maybe a .01% of running into a question like that on a given day).
    – jrh
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:20
  • 4
    While I see the challenge with it, I'd also say that anybody should be allowed to comment on SO. Probably comments of such lowest-rep users should be easier to delete for the community, without moderator intervention.
    – hek2mgl
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:39
  • I mean everybody, not anybody.. :)
    – hek2mgl
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:48
  • Well, we could allow them to post a comment, but such that it would only be visible to them and nobody else (a sort of hell banning). Then none of this drama would happen (there would probably be some meta posts, though). Commented May 12, 2018 at 4:40
  • 5
    @PeterMortensen Being morally disgusting aside, how would that help at all?
    – Passer By
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 7:56
  • 3
    @Makoto We could also try a sort of compromise. Keep the 50 rep limit, but allow each new user ,say, five comments. If they receive upvotes on their comments (Indicating that they are of value) then they be allotted more comments. If they don't get upvoted their comments will run out and they will have to earn the 50 rep to comment again. Do you think that's a viable option?
    – GBlodgett
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 11:41
  • @GBlodgett: No, that wouldn't make sense either. Honestly, this is getting far more discussion and deliberation than it needs.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 13:43
  • 1
    But you've got a system that intrinsically rewards behaviour contrary to intention. It's a lower cost (rep-wise) to write a more important post ('answer') as a question, than a question as a comment. Users flow towards path of least resistance. Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:29
  • 3
    "If they don't want to invest the time and energy into getting the 50 reputation required to comment" - Why should a user who is already trying to be helpful be required to do even more? And this begs the question of what exactly can they do to earn this? Post comments is out. It's unlikely they have a question. Waiting until they do means delaying their response to the other user. What if they contribute something useless elsewhere just to get the comment rights? It's akin to a charity shop demanding minimum qualifications for a general purpose volunteer - beggars really can't be choosers. Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:39
  • @SSight3: If what they contribute is garnering them upvotes, I'd hardly call that "useless". Sure, you get people who still want to paint the bikeshed, but then there are others who reward people for painting that bikeshed, so the system is working as designed. More context here
    – Makoto
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:54
  • @GBlodgett I like your idea but I have to mention my usual complaint about voting, on low traffic stuff you might never see an upvote, even for quality content, especially on comments. A lot of the times I've been the first one to upvote an (IMO) fantastic comment. I think SO shouldn't ever punish users for not getting any votes, but the Roomba kind of screws that up already. I'm just not all that interested in a popularity contest, to be honest. I'd rather spend that energy documenting stuff and helping people.
    – jrh
    Commented May 24, 2018 at 12:30
13

It's a genuine quandary what someone should do if they "need" to post a comment and aren't permitted to do so.

In this case one solution (which unfortunately would require a small amount of your time) would be to post the question in the comments on the behalf of the offending respondent, and then comment on their "answer" with "I see you're not able to post comments on the question so I took the liberty of posting a comment on your behalf", or something similar.

10
  • 10
    Posting the comment on behalf of the low-rep user sounds reasonable! Good advice
    – hek2mgl
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:44
  • 1
    what would they probably do next would be to post yet another non-answer in some other question expecting similar courtesy over there. That's kind of just-in-time learning
    – gnat
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 21:15
  • 4
    If their non-comment comment is germane to the question being asked, that's a reasonable accommodation to make. Commented May 11, 2018 at 21:26
  • 13
    I used to do this (before I became a mod). I stopped after a funny corner case which I had not imagined. I posted a comment on behalf on another user, commented on their post asking them to delete their answer and flagged it for deletion as well. All went well, they deleted their post, and the other answerer (on whose post, I had commented), also replied back to my comment. Now, after this, the user posted another NAA, asking more clarification from the other answerer. I was now acting like a middleman, and thought that it would escalate further, so I stopped (and decided not to be helpful).
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 21:42
  • I definitely would've done that, but someone had already asked what the error was in a comment
    – GBlodgett
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 0:45
  • 5
    The premise is wrong, no one "need" to post a comment, the community doesn't rely on any specific user. Helping them to circumvent the rule is inviting more poor answers to pollute the site. Especially in this question, the user even didn't bother to spell the word "you", this is not even a comment from a reasonable contributor.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 5:26
  • 2
    @liliscent I rarely say it, but I agree with this point about spelling "you". I am aware that few people on the internet have English as their first language, and typos can happen, so I generally ignore bad grammar. But deep-down secret opinion is that we are all programmers, and therefore have a heightened awareness of the importance of syntax. Not only did they spell "you" the trendy way, there's no punctuation of any kind. I had to look twice to confirm it was in fact a question, not a badly-spoken statement.
    – Stewart
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 8:17
  • I use this approach if and only if the answer contains genuinely useful information worth preserving for future readers. Very, very occasionally I see such an answer - e.g. someone signs up to "answer" that a library function used in another answer was renamed and provide the new function signature, for example. I make sure to preserve such information and thank the users before flagging their answer for deletion, even though they were technically breaking the rules, because they were genuinely improving SO-as-a-repository-of-knowledge as best they could with the powers available to them.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:24
  • @liliscent From the site's point of view, that's fine, but in the context of this user, I worry that we're raising the barrier to entry for new, potentially-valuable members of the community. What you have here is a user who's read this question and thought of a valuable contribution they can make (and asking for logcat output is valuable when trying to assist in debugging). In return, they've been told they're not allowed to make that contribution until they've passed some threshold. I know why we block low-rep users from posting comments, but I can see why it's frustrating for the user. Commented May 14, 2018 at 15:01
  • 1
    @anaximander I'm kind of pessimistic to this kind of users. I see many times when a user being told not to post non-answer, they respond rudely that they don't want to follow the rule. In other words, failure of following some obvious rules is often intentional, they want the site change rules for them to post low-quality content.
    – llllllllll
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 6:12
8

This may be an unpopular opinion and might be breaking some kind of rules, but you could tell the user to take advantage of Stack Exchange as a whole, as while maybe gaining 50 reputation on SO can be challenging for some they may have different areas of expertise. If they gain enough on a different Stack Exchange site they would also receive the bonus (+100) from being a trusted user. Alongside being able to gain reputation (In my opinion) faster than on SO it could be seen as a net positive overall as other Stack Exchange sites would benefit.

As psubsee2003 suggested in the comments:

This is ultimately why the association bonus exists. Users can get around the "new user" restrictions by demonstrating that they know how the site works...

There was also a suggestion on a possible phrasing:

... but I would phrase such comments to make it less about gaming the system and more along the lines of

If you have more than 200 rep on another Stack Exchange site, you will earn the association bonus which will remove most of the new user restrictions by granting you +100 rep on all sites you sign up for, including the sites you are already active on.

My own findings:

Just to bolster my claim of it being easier, I recently gained around 800 total rep on other stack exchanges by answering something like 8-10 questions total. This is very achievable for most I would say. I guess it's a solution of sorts.

7
  • #gaming_the_system?
    – Luuklag
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:47
  • 1
    Gaming the system by using the rules to your advantage, the best kind of gaming. #edgey_content
    – li x
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:49
  • Though I am very interested to hear if this is an appropriate response or recommendation from someone official, it just felt wrong when I was writing this answer.
    – li x
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:51
  • 4
    This is ultimately why the association bonus exists. Users can get around the "new user" restrictions by demonstrating that they know how the site works. But I would phrase such comments to make it less about gaming the system and more along the lines of "if you have more than 200 rep on another SE site, you will earn the association bonus which earn you the association bonus on all your SE accounts and remove the new user restrictions". Some ;links to a few spots will help too Commented May 14, 2018 at 14:59
  • This isn't a loophole, it's just using the system as it was intended. Nevertheless, I would probably not recommend this to a new user. I imagine it might just be confusing or sound like a lot of extra work. Commented May 14, 2018 at 15:00
  • @psubsee2003 Mind if I add that into my answer? @A Boschman You never know some people are jacks of all trades, maybe they just haven't discovered the other exchanges yet?
    – li x
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 15:01
  • @lix sure, go ahead. I would suggest you embedd links to StackExchange.com/sites to show all of the sites in the network, and also to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/141648/… to help describe the association bonus Commented May 14, 2018 at 15:05
5

Don't do anything. Move on. Will they delete their account? The kind of person who interacts with you like that us not the kind of person who contributes good questions or answers. If they delete their account and take all their low quality posts with them, the site has been made better.

-2

This is based on the assumption the comment rep limit is to weed out bots and spammers, not just to stop newbs commenting.

Would it be possible to throw a three-answer test at them, similar in nature (though not content) to those used to check that reviewers can correctly pick out a good or bad edit to a question/answer? The questions could be based on information picked up in the FAQ that new users are prompted to read. The test could be used to grant a single comment privilege, or be used to give reputation - whatever works best.

Personally, I don't think the accepted answer is a step in the right direction in terms of SO Isn’t Very Welcoming. I understand we may be discussing a recidivist in this instance, but I am talking about the genuine newb who thinks they may be able to give assistance, depending on some piece of information needed, but ends up frustrated due to rules stopping them from getting that information so they wind up at yahoo err exper err quora instead.

1
  • You'd need to find a way to present those questions so that bots and spammers can't get past them. That means the questions have to be random and it can't be something where randomly guessing the answers could conceivably work.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 9, 2018 at 11:17
-2

This is a central issue on StackOverflow

I am a low rep user. I'm trying to raise my reputation and to contribute to the site, but I find the 50 rep comment limitation to be incredibly frustrating.

There have been several situations where I run into this. Recently, I discovered an answer to a problem that I have been having for a while, but the solution given had syntax for a different version of the tool I was using (an older one, but I don't know which version). In that scenario all I needed was clarification from the original author. It could have been as simple as "version 2.7.4" and then I could use that for further searches. That clarification could also have been beneficial for future visitors to that thread. But in this case there was absolutely no recourse for getting around commenting short of mining for higher reputation or cheating the system like Mr. Exhibit A in OP's question.

Seeking higher reputation is something of a chicken and egg problem thanks to my relative lack of expertise compared to all you geniuses people. Much of my knowledge of programming is coming from SO anyway, so my contributions can easily suffer from a derivative quality that often comes with comments like, "possible duplicate of..." from other people that visit the question.

When trying to answer questions, I've had an inclination to leave comments in order to greater understand the asker's problem, but I can't even ask clarifying questions on unanswered questions. This further exasperates my inability to contribute such that I can earn the requisite reputation to comment.

To those of you who are beyond me, and for whom this is no longer an issue, I think it's really worth considering the cost that the current comment scheme incurs on well meaning individuals like me. I don't agree with the approach our mystery commenter took to dealing with the issue, but I do agree with their sentiment. I want to be a contributory member, and as I improve my knowledge I intend to share it, but I refuse to believe that this is the optimal solution to balancing the need to prevent bots and spammers while providing a good user experience. Perhaps I'm just not aware of the whole problem.

My solution

FWIW, my solution is this: raise the comment reputation threshold a bit e.g. 60 or so (bear with me), but allow users under 60 and above 10 rep to spend a portion of their rep to leave a comment. This way, to address my two issues above:

  1. I can spend my (perhaps 3-5) rep to comment to get a clarifying answer that I really need. It's painful because it sets me back on my way to unlimited comments, but it's not unthinkable so I can use it if it's vital
  2. I can spend my reputation to comment on their question in order to better answer their question. Maybe the price to comment on asked questions is lower (e.g. 2-3 rep or so?) to further incentivize that action.

I think this is a reasonable solution to the problem. It maintains the incentive that people contribute to SO, it leaves a barrier to spammers (maybe it increases spam comments a bit, but it's not unbounded because spammers will eventually run out of reputation to spend) and it allows people to pay a price for the unusual case where they need to get out a comment. Furthermore, it's not an unheard of action, this would be analogous to how downvoting is a costly action, but not impossible.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts.

32
  • It's probably incorrect to regard high-rep folks as "geniuses". People get high-rep for many reasons, including: (1) joining Stack Overflow many years ago, when the culture was different, (2) posting in niche tags and having less answering competition; (3) having an inordinate amount of time free to answer questions; (4) being a good writer and thus being able to ask questions that might get upvotes.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 9, 2018 at 20:44
  • You only have two answers on the main site (though I note they are both upvoted). If you want to bump up your rep a bit, find some low-hanging fruit (there is a constant stream of SQL and regex questions) and add a few answers. Getting a couple more upvotes is easier than you think.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 9, 2018 at 20:46
  • 1
    I like this solution. It still prevents spam, as people are less likely to add trivial comments if it costs them something
    – GBlodgett
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 0:04
  • @halfer I'm being sycophantic, I see you have high rep and I imagine you don't mind being called a genius too much 😉
    – Connor
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 2:32
  • @halfer In regards to your second comment, I appreciate the recommendation for how to improve my reputation. I will use those ideas. What I'm really trying to elucidate is that this is an important issue, and there really are both a) undesirable costs and b) barriers to entry for incoming users. I think that it can be easy for people who joined SO many years ago to miss how the minimum required comment rep can have an unexpected detrimental impact on a new user's experience. So, I think this issue should be explored more, and various new user's thoughts taken into consideration on it
    – Connor
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 2:45
  • @halfer just to make the silliness of the situation even more clear: I can't even participate in the comment chain on the 50 rep comment limit due to the 50 rep comment limit.
    – Connor
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 2:48
  • 1
    @Connor: well, the question is not whether I, personally, like being called a genius - it is whether such praise is generally welcomed. I appreciate your remark was tongue-in-cheek, but I have a theory outlined here that suggests that sycophancy may be a paradoxical barrier to entry.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 8:10
  • I am not opposed to the 50-rep discussion, but since you have just two answers to your name, I do not think it could apply to you. Pick a technology tag you like (I tend to do php and docker for example) and answer questions that you find interesting. It does not matter if they are already answered, and it does not matter if they are the kind of question that attracts a race to answer ("fastest gun in the west"). If you have 10 answers are are still struggling, that would be worth raising.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 8:13
  • FWIW, I am not opposed to your proposal, but I have found getting traction on ideas has been a hard slog for years, since development time is expensive, and recently SE have some new projects to polish!
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 8:17
  • I have latly talk to a low rep that make this joke: "I can easly reach 50 rep by edidting some English into all your post". He simply don't wanted to get rep from edit. But still 50 Rep is easy. People are incredibly generous on First post if it's well formated and readable and show some effort. Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 9:57
  • @halfer I touched programming for the first time about 9-12 months ago. Only in the last 2-3 months has my level of competence reached the degree where I can provide valuable answers. In other words, php and docker have not been available to me as options, because until recently I knew nothing. That's what I'm trying to convey: that the level of knowledge for a new user is probably lower than that of a more established user. That differential contributes to a barrier to entry to achieving the requisite rep, which can conceivably denigrate their early experience on Stack Overflow
    – Connor
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 14:27
  • 1
    Thanks @Connor. My 'confident questions' post is just a pet theory really, and I'm not a psychologist! However, it seems to have been received well, so perhaps there is something in it. As to your proposal, could you post it as a question on Meta? It won't get any attention hidden in an answer.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 20:01
  • 1
    It sounds like you should post this as a standalone feature request instead of an answer to a question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 11, 2018 at 20:07
  • 1
    @halfer I have had a hell of a last two weeks, but I'm writing the feature request today, so I'll get it off to you hopefully this weekend
    – Connor
    Commented Jun 23, 2018 at 20:50
  • 1
    @Connor: It is inappropriate to use comments to solicit feedback of another post. Just post it; if I have anything to say, it'll be in that question, not in comments.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 25, 2018 at 14:02

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