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This is a follow-up discussion on this recently raised question, specifically about Shog9's answer.

This part in particular:

If concerns are raised over the appropriateness of a room's conversation, then either the conversation or the entire room is subject to deletion.

This effectively equates to a soft rule of not allowing non-English discussions at all, or at least it allows singular users (via flagging) to shutdown non-English discussions whenever they see fit. I think that's a dangerous precedent to set (that we don't care about the merit of the flag, the fact that it's non-English text is enough to validate it).

I think Stack Overflow either needs a solid policy (like prohibiting non-English discussions period) or solid guidance (only validate flags where you can discern if they're valid or not). Currently for innocent discussion people can trigger automatic chat bans, or for offensive discussion nothing can happen at all.

I think a clarification of policy is necessary for this.

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  • 6
    The problem with "only validate flags where you can discern if they're valid or not" is that it allows offensive content to be obscured by language. It's a privilege that non-English rooms are allowed. If a room causes issues (flags), that privilege can be revoked.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 7:19
  • 5
    @Cerbrus Thats entirely the point. We're in a dilemma about that, and a policy of "when its causing issues" is not well-defined and entirely too muddy for moderation guidances, which are supposed to be clear.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 7:20
  • 2
    @Cerbrus What about a room where the vast majority of the conversation is in English, but occasional posts are not? A drive by troll could flag someone saying good morning in French for example, or some Unicode foreign language text which is being technically discussed. Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:28
  • 2
    @DavidPostill And thats entirely the point. Under current guidance, I could flag anything not in english, and people would validate it. I could close a chatroom because I felt like it. Maybe having that power isn't such a good idea.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:29
  • @DavidPostill: Then it's up to ROs to either remove the message, or the user to dispute the flag with a moderator. Messages like that rarely get flagged, though.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:36
  • 1
    The network chat suffers from a much larger-scale version of this problem, where spam/offensive flags can be seen by every 10k (combined rep!) user in every room in the entire network, regardless of parent site. We can defer to ROs, but people are going to pile on flags regardless.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:55
  • 9
    I am German, and I sometimes see questions where other Germans have a lot of trouble with the English language. If the discussion in the comments doesn't help, and there is a chat offered, I would actually go to the chat and clarify with them in German, and then sum up in English in a comment, or edit their question for them. Is that something that's considered bad? Can I get banned for trying to help?
    – simbabque
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:15
  • 5
    @simbabque No one is getting banned over this. Chatrooms may be blocked/removed - but none of the participants are having strikes against their account (except perhaps the individuals responsible for the flags). So to answer your question: absolutely not.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:30
  • @Rob That's the issue. You can be banned if things are flagged, and those flags become validated.
    – Zizouz212
    Commented May 21, 2016 at 21:50
  • Initial "ban" for a flagged message lasts only 30 minutes, @Zizouz212. Sure, if you keep going it can get longer, but willful behavior becomes a separate issue then.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 4:57

3 Answers 3

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The choice here isn't between carefully moderating non-English rooms and shutting them down.

It's between unmoderated rooms and shutting them down.

There are... A lot of languages that aren't English. Way more than three. Expecting moderators or even 10k users to be able to interpret some abbreviated slang in an unknown language properly is... Naive.

I know this because we tried it for years and it ended badly. Folks were being put in real danger because we weren't stepping in.

So this is the lesser evil. It's an English website, expecting English in chat is not unreasonable.

Up for discussion: Can we be more than just less evil?

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    so does that mean non english discussion is officially forbidden now?
    – Magisch
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 15:37
  • 7
    More directly, does this mean that moderators should freeze/delete non-English rooms on sight? I'd be happy with that.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 15:38
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    Warn if you wish, @undo, but yes freeze or delete if warning isn't given or heeded.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 15:49
  • 4
    A couple of non-English messages in an otherwise English room shouldn't be a problem, @Magisch.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 15:57
  • 9
    I think the question was can anyone exploit this and go around trolling otherwise innocent non-English rooms with false flags and causing them to all get warned/shut down for a crime they did not commit?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 15:58
  • 8
    @BoltClock Sounds like yes, but that's partially a risk that turns up with the creation of a non-English room - we can't risk actual offensive content going through and putting people in danger, so err on the side of caution and ask people to chat in English.
    – ArtOfCode
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 16:01
  • @ArtOfCode: Fair enough.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 16:02
  • 1
    @Shog9 Sorry to be persistent on this, but does this mean that 10k users and moderators are supposed to validate any flags on non-english messages in chat? If so, is going through chatlogs and mass-flagging all non english discussion an abuse of the system? Because somebody is doing that in a room right now.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 6:49
  • @Magisch It might not be abuse per se, but it'd definitely be ill-advised, questionably profitable, and downright irritating. I'd probably tell anyone doing that to stop.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 14:02
  • 1
    So, use a bit of common sense here, @Magisch. If it's one person using non-English in an otherwise-English room, tell 'em to quit (or flag). If the whole room is mostly not English, that's not something you can clean up unless you're a mod - so flag for moderator attention and explain the situation, and let them deal with it. Mods should exercise their judgement and discretion, with this as with all things.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 21:48
  • 1
    @Magisch: Those are two completely separate scenarios. But I agree with Undo - while it's not an outright abuse of flags, people have no business poking their noses into rooms they wouldn't normally join in the first place - especially if they're going to do so just to flag messages. If the problem comes looking for you (or us or anybody else), though...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 6:23
  • @BoltClock All rooms are public, and all messages are public record. If a room does something inappropiate, then its justified to flag, no? Everyone has a business poking into everyone's rooms. I was under the impression that our chat is all public.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 6:25
  • This image was linked in the Androidians room. It seems the SO team isn't up-to-speed about this recent mess. They're using that email as an excuse to say English isn't required, now. @Shog9, would you be willing to clarify the situation in that room?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 6:39
  • @BoltClock According to SHog's response, a room not being english only is enough reason to delete it or freeze it without warning, see the comments above. So yes, rooms have to be english only.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 7:03
  • @Magisch: I have to say I'm now even more confused than ever and I'm going to stop participating in this whole fiasco for the time being.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 25, 2016 at 7:05
21

The problem with "only validate flags where you can discern if they're valid or not" is that it allows offensive content to be obscured by language.

It's a privilege that non-English rooms are allowed.
If a room causes issues (flags), that privilege can be revoked.

A solid policy would help clarify the process to users in chatrooms like these.

Steps like these could be considered:

  1. Non-English chatrooms are tolerated.
  2. On a first "incident" (Flags), the room receives a warning.
  3. On a second incident, the room is locked. Room owners can dispute the lock by contacting the moderator that locked the room.

(This is just a rough idea)

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    These are exactly the steps we already take when dealing with flags from non-English rooms.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:53
  • 3
    @BoltClock: Then all that's left is to document them somewhere :D
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:53
  • @BoltClock Your process doesn't adress what consitutes an "Incident". Does that mean a singular troll can flag and gets validated flags from a chatroom, and the room is warned/punished for that? As per Shogs own admission, these flags are notoriously hard to moderate, and err on the side of validating. What then, stops a single troll from just taking a dump on a chatroom they dont like? I feel like there needs to be a more clear process for this.
    – Magisch
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 8:58
  • English rooms that have a handful of non-English messages, which get flagged for no reason aren't at risk of being locked. Our resident overlords can usually identify whether the problem is with the room (It's not English, so impossible to moderate), or with a user.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:08
  • Perhaps (and I'm not sure if this is already the case?) ROs should get first dibs on flags. Perhaps 10minutes to handle the flag themselves before the flag goes public. At least in this case, it's harder to get a non-English room shutdown because of a few unsavory characters.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:33
  • @Rob: As far as I know, RO's don't necessarily see flags. That's something 10k+ users see.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:36
  • @Cerbrus That may be the case now, but I'm proposing the above - that they do get to see flags in their own room before the rest of the network, regardless of reputation.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:37
  • Flags go public as soon as a message is flagged. Delaying that could lead to complications when no RO is active, and a message is clear spam or insults. (To be removed ASAP)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:37
  • 2
    Funny thing. We always "request" the people (specifically ROs) in chatrooms that don't use English to use English as much as possible and try to keep flags (or situations that could potentially lead to flags) under control. The room that we are talking about was not frozen because we saw flags from it but because too much discussion was going on about who flagged and for what reason etc.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 9:58
  • 1
    Yes @Cerbrus, RO does not see flags. Confirmed, because I can't see flags in the Tavern Commented May 20, 2016 at 13:15
-3

Stack Overflow has become an international icon, not only in just English-speaking but every country where C++, C#, Java, et al. is "spoken". Such a move can make non-English users feel a bit panicked.

I can totally understand the headache of moderating too many languages as non-English communications will never be scrutinized as much as English and can put the reputation of the website into danger.

The solution to me is:

Stack Overflow should designate 4-5 major languages (Mandarian, Arabic, Urdu/Hindi, Spanish look automatic choices there) and advertise about "hiring" the moderators for these languages and assign them the duty to police these chatrooms. Hiring criteria should be something like this:

  • Minimum two years "experience" on Stack Overflow
  • Reputation points in excess of 2000
  • Ability to show proficiency in the given language

I am sure it will make Stack Overflow much popular in Latin America, the Middle East and mainland China. All in all, we can't ignore more than 2/3 of world's population by disallowing non-English chat (even posts - there must be Stack Overflow's recognized translators for it as well - or some points awarded for translation can also work).

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  • If one cannot speak english, one cannot read all QA on SO. SO is and will always be english-only for actual Q/A. For non-english versions there are localised SE sites, but they largely stopped launching these (IIRC).
    – Magisch
    Commented May 22, 2016 at 12:53
  • 3
    Even if we managed to get 5 good moderators for those languages (which is a challenge all on its own), that still leaves every other language as a problem here. As a illuatration of the difficulty here, I'm pretty sure the incident that sparked this discussion wouldn't have been mitigated by such an arrangement.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 23, 2016 at 4:54

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