225

Signal vs Noise

I find that when a question warrants a close vote, it usually violates a number of rules, sometimes a majority of the rules, and it is hard to decide which is the most appropriate.

Also with the dearth of high reputation points users compared to the influx of anonymous/new users flooding the site with incomplete, homework questions, begging for code to be fixed without any clue what is actually wrong and the general laziness of the Internet since it has "discovered" Stack Overflow.

Now that most of the time when you google for something the majority of the top 10 hits are Stack Overflow links, and it just draws more and more people that don't care how the site is supposed to work; they just want a quick answer.

The signal-to-noise ratio is getting pretty bad in the last year where it discourages me from even trying to answer questions, because I have to dig through so much cruft to find the actual honest-to-goodness questions that need answering versus the noise.

Statistics that I could dig up from https://data.stackexchange.com/

Closed Question Statistics

Closed Questions: 312,039
Closed Questions Score > 0: 111,117
Closed Questions Score >= 0: 210,392
Closed Questions Score < 0: 101,647
Closed Questions Score <= -5: 13,866
Closed Questions Never Edited By Owner: 236,892

Questions that were actually edited after being closed:

Closed Questions LastEditDate > ClosedDate: 33,474
Closed Questions LastEditDate > ClosedDate and LastEdited by Owner: 12,500
Closed Questions Never Edited By Owner After ClosedDate: 15,092 

Questions that were successfully re-opened after being closed:

Closed Questions Re-Opened: 12,061
Closed Questions Re-Opened With No Edits After Closing: 864
Closed Questions Re-Opened Edited After Closed & LastEditedBy <> Owner: 205
Closed Questions Re-Opened Edited After Closed & LastEditedBy = Owner: 60

Only 60 questions that were last edited by their owner after being closed made it to re-open status out of 312,039 total closed!


Those are some pretty depressing numbers and confirms my suspicions. Trying to moderate right now is a losing battle, because if the people don't put effort into the question, they aren't going to put any more effort into it to fix it to get an answer.

Custom close reasons are too much effort and time consuming

It takes more effort to moderate out these questions than it did for the person that posts them in the first place many times, and you just sigh and give up.

Maybe an MRU list of custom close reasons where I don't have to type in the same belongs on XXX message over and over.

Maybe custom close reasons need to weight more since I took extra time to create it?

##Maybe some close reasons need to have a higher weight than others?

I think the powers that be should consider allowing for multiple close votes or some better weighting scheme to close things quicker that are noise.

Maybe duplicate votes for "exact duplicate" that pick the same answer independently count for more, only need 3 instead of 5?

Maybe if you are in the top 1% in the most popular tag in the question your vote weighs more?

##Why don't closed questions get downvoted more?

Too many questions on my front page linger at 4 close votes for too long, discouraging me from looking for more relevant good questions to answer.

I see too many on hold questions with positive scores or zero. If it is bad enough to be closed, it shouldn't show up on the front page at all.

I think a close vote should also be an automatic down-vote. And a on hold question should be set to at least -5 automatically.

##More creative algorithm

A better algorithm weighting of who is voting to close vs who created the question should be experimented with at least. Maybe a bleed out, once close vote(s) are cast if the question isn't edited sufficiently automatic close votes or downvotes or both get cast by the system until it bleeds out! Or something like that, be creative!

There is way too much noise on the site in general for me to feel like engaging on a daily basis anymore

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  • 35
    Jumping on one point you made: If it is bad enough to be closed, it shouldn't show up on the front page at all. Why? What if the close vote was wrong? For example, something is marked as a duplicate, but it turns out the two questions are using radically different versions of the API. Or maybe the question needed improvement and has received it, but has not yet been reopened. Remember, closed doesn't mean "cannot be redeemed", it means "something needs fixing" - that's why it was changed to "on hold".
    – thegrinner
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 18:42
  • 77
    if 5 high rep users flag it as a duplicate, it probably is, in the rare case they get it wrong the OP can always flag for moderation. In the case of edited questions, the close voters should be notified to re-evaluate the questions validity, most of the time, edits are superficial and of little effort to redeem a question. I would not be surprised to see the number questions successfully edited and worthy of reopening to be much out of the single digit percentages. The burden should NOT be on the people answering and moderating, it should be on the person getting the FREE help
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 18:43
  • 2
    I would like to see numbers on how many questions with 5 close votes actually get edited by the OP, ever; much less improved enough to warrant re-opening. I would bet overall, not many. Most of the time I see crap, gets closed, sits on my front page for a week, and the majority of the page is closed questions or ones that are on their way to being closed. Usually they put so little effort into the question they aren't going to come back and try and improve it, they will go somewhere else more forgiving like reddit or some forum like site and just weight it down with their laziness.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 18:56
  • 3
    If a question is edited within five days after closure, it's automatically sent to the reopen review queue.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:01
  • 5
    @thegrinner The reopen review queue doesn't tend to get very large; items there are usually handled rather promptly, so in the rare cases that post really do get edited into proper shape, they actually have a very good shot at being reopened quite quickly.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:06
  • 8
    @JoeW I don't care about their rep, I care about the crap filling up my front page! -5 and I never see it!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:46
  • 12
    Forcing a -5 on a question just because it was closed (and might not be that bad) won't fix the real problem of bad questions being asked. All you are suggesting is hiding the problem rather then try and solve it by encouraging bad posts to be fixed.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:49
  • 8
    60 questions reopened that were last edited by the owner after being closed out of 312,039 questions closed is a pretty damning statistic! I think you guys have too much faith in the denizens of the Internet ...
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:56
  • 15
    @JoeW It does actually help. When the bad questions are hidden they're much less likely to be answered, when they aren't answered, the authors aren't given incentives to continue asking them. That's on top of not wasting a bunch of people's time reading the question.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 20:01
  • 6
    I was correct, the number of questions closed and NEVER edited by their owner is pretty bad. Closed Questions Never Edited By Owner: 236,892 out of 312,039 that is over 2/3 of the closed questions that get abandoned.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 22:55
  • 5
    Maybe if you are in the top 1% in the most popular tag in the question your vote weighs more?: Unfortunately, most of those in to 1% would rather prefer to answer than to close in order to maintain the top 1% status. Not only answer, they would also upvote the question!
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 3:12
  • 2
    Would there be a way to let lower rep users access moderation tools based on a history of consistently good quality posts?
    – Cape Code
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:40
  • 9
    How about educating before the question instead of investing community time in correcting it after the fact.
    – A. Webb
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 5:27
  • 8
    @JarrodRoberson I agree with you on that the question should not have been there in the first place. But what looks natural and simple to you and other 30k's may look puzzling and discouraging to those who have just started. I had been getting much advertisement that I should join the site and take part - and ever since I did, I struggle hard not to feel very unwelcome to the already long running party. This way, quick-come-and-go's are the only new people SO is gonna get. Having been able to move my (upvoted) answer would have taught me, having it just plain deleted is a frustration.
    – Pavel
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 7:18
  • 5
    I think a close vote should also be an automatic down-vote. And a on hold question should be set to at least -5 automatically. It would be great. +1
    – rpax
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 14:42

14 Answers 14

151

This is how gamification works, right?

The rules of Stack Overflow: The Game are as follows.

  • Your rep is your score.
  • You want your score to be the highest, because then you WIN. Winning is good!
  • Downvoting bad questions does nothing to your score. Who cares?
  • Voting to close bad questions does nothing to your score. Who cares?
  • Downvoting bad answers, or answers to bad questions, lowers your score. Avoid at all costs!
  • Posting a quick answer to a trivial question generally nets you an accept, plus maybe a couple drive-by upvotes. Which makes it the best strategy.

The game isn't designed to increase the SNR. The game is designed to encourage everyone to do things that raise their scores. Which basically means posting, anything. There's very little risk involved, either.

And of course the people posting the noise questions in the first place don't care at all; they just want an answer, and they're lucky enough to have found a site designed to encourage several people to fight over giving them one. Or several!

I don't know what the answer is, because it's hard to measure "how good is the site" and match that up to individual actions in a meaningful and immediate way. Give rep for voting to close, if the question is ultimately closed? Give rep just for casting votes at all? Those are pretty obviously ripe for abuse without adding on convoluted rules that wreck the action/reward feedback loop.


For what it's worth, I don't care too much about the mere presence of junk questions. I care more that they steal attention from everything else.

I have 16k rep on SO and have never posted a single question. Sometimes I consider it, but I'm always convinced that I can always find a better answer by myself in less time than it would take to write up the question and wait for a response. Because I've seen far too many interesting and specific questions float by and eventually drop off the front page, while the latest "how do I make a div blink with jQuery?" immediately attracts ten answers.

So here's an actual concrete suggestion: Give more rep for having an answer accepted (or upvoted?) on an old question. People will do what gives them the high score, so shift the incentive towards mining the existing depths of unanswered questions instead of racing to paste a line from a manpage.

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  • 13
    Downvoting bad answers, or answers to bad questions, lowers your score. Avoid at all costs! - This isn't entirely true. If an answer is so bad that it is removed, you get that -1 back. It's a short term loss, but on truly bad answers does nothing to your score.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 15:09
  • 56
    @Andy That still just makes it a gamble that, at best, gains you nothing.
    – Eevee
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:19
  • 6
    If StackOverflow is a game then why is high score leader Jon Skeet and not A S S?
    – dav_i
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 12:00
  • 12
    Great post. An economist is what's needed...this idea + @JarrodRoberson -type research. I'm tired of reading: "everyone except me is either a whore or a charlatan" posts.
    – danh
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 16:20
  • 10
    @danh if only everyone else acted the way i wish i acted, i'd act that way too! it's really all their fault.
    – Eevee
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 17:11
  • 1
    @Andy interesting, I didn't know you get the rep back if it's closed. Maybe there should be bonus rep for downvoting a closed or moderated question/answer? Then your downvote becomes a rep gamble instead of a service to the community. i.e. "this is so bad I bet I can gain a few points by downvoting" instead of "this is so bad i don't care that I might lose a few points by downvoting" Commented May 6, 2014 at 22:57
  • @RembrandtQ.Einstein Not closed, removed.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 23:46
  • The incentive structure is the reification of the will of the organisation. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/…
    – Ben
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 15:34
  • Downvoting ... answers to bad questions Are people supposed to down vote answers to bad questions? If the question is bad, but the answer is okay, should the answer be down voted? I never down vote the answer in those instances. Commented May 9, 2014 at 21:46
  • 1
    "The game is designed to encourage everyone to do things that raise their scores. Which basically means posting, anything. There's very little risk involved, either." - the payoff gets even better with bounties that don't answer the question. Twice I had mine auto-awarded to answers that did not answer my question....
    – jww
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 11:53
  • @Eevee Well I get a nicer gaming room for just a -1, which is nothing of a cost. IMO a worthy gamble. And negative score answers are deleted (wild broken crystal ball guess) 90% of times or more.
    – luk32
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:26
  • 2
    "I have 16k rep on SO and have never posted a single question. Sometimes I consider it, but I'm always convinced that I can always find a better answer by myself in less time than it would take to write up the question and wait for a response.": What I usually do is ask the question. Then I go and figure out the answer on my own. If I figure it out first, I come back and answer my own question. Sometimes in the process of asking the question I find the answer and then, if it's interesting, I'll ask & answer simultaneously. This strategy seems the most net gain for stackoverflow .
    – Claudiu
    Commented Oct 27, 2015 at 14:31
  • How would SE get enough mods covering the front page and to get a good representation of what questions are good by their score? I tend to only look to see if there are questions I could answer, but the part of the "Game" that is picking the good questions that need answers and promoting them became a larger part of good citizenship, and maybe even benefited your questions, this would be a more healthy place, rather than upvoting the questions that have good answers only.
    – BenPen
    Commented Oct 21, 2016 at 17:19
  • You basically need to figure out how to reward the people who think about their up.down votes instead of just voting for the score. End up on the right side of the tally, and you get a bonus rep bump? That still trends towards binary groupthink to agree with the current positive/negative tally, rather than evaluating good vs bad questions.
    – BenPen
    Commented Oct 21, 2016 at 17:24
  • "while the latest "how do I make a div blink with jQuery?" immediately attracts ten answers." - maybe a lot of people just know how to make a div blink in jQuery ;)
    – Spectric
    Commented Mar 25, 2021 at 1:44
71

How about a probationary period for questions:

You have to wait a certain period of time before you can accept an answer in order to give time for better answers to appear.

Why not do the inverse:

Low-reputation users or users with lots of closed/downvoted questions can submit questions, but they can't be answered until some time has passed to give the community time to enhance the question or curate it to allow for a better question to be submitted or be moderated appropriately before the reputation whores get to it.

There are lots of tuning opportunities here:

  1. Once you get a certain number of reputation points, your questions no longer get the waiting period.
  2. Having a low accept ratio would extend the probationary period.
  3. Having a majority of closed/downvoted questions would extend the probationary period.
  4. Having a high accept ratio would reduce the probationary period.
  5. Having a majority of accepted/upvoted questions would reduce the probationary period.
  6. Closevotes / downvotes / upvotes could increase or decrease the probationary period.
  7. Moderators could remove the probationary period immediately if flagged.
  8. Maybe you let people answer but not show the answers to anyone until the probation period expires to discourage rep whores.
  9. No reputation earned for answers is earned if the question until the question passes muster and is published.
  10. Maybe you could spend reputation points to get your question published quicker, similar to the Bounty concept.

Immediately increase the quality of answers if nothing else:

This would would be a huge disincentive for those posting terse, half-baked or naive answers immediately and would give those that take the time to actually respond with a good answer time to be on equal footing.

It doesn't have to be a long wait to have a huge impact:

This could potentially solve lots of the problems with the drive by/vampire/anonymous/one-time users that are just shot gunning the Internet for an immediate quick fix.

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  • 8
    +1 - Methinks you should post this as a feature request later on if it's ignored. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:25
  • @Denis will do!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:43
  • 32
    But ... but .. that homework question is URGENT! PLZ HELP! :-D Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 17:16
  • 11
    Delay answers? That's not good. Guess what sold me on StackOverflow: my first question was well answered in less than 5 minutes. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 17:22
  • 8
    Joking aside ... the only thing I wonder is if this just wouldn't lead to a landside of reposts. These people don't care about the site, and can't be bothered to read anything else on their screen. There'd have to be something that kept them from reposting 10 times because they "weren't getting an answer". Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 17:22
  • 3
    I am sure there is some kind of anti-flooding / anti-spamming going on already, it just might need to be tweaked a bit. I predict the offenders would get moderated out and the account banned pretty quickly either way. Remember these are lazy people, the repost effort would be too high most likely. And if it is too much of a burden the aren't going to come back and fix their question either anyway as my research shows.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 17:35
  • @Denis - meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252769/…
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:00
  • @JarrodRoberson: I saw — and upvoted it already. ;-) Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:01
  • @GeorgeBailey: how about your recent questions? How much of them have been adequately answered, compared to how they used to be years ago? Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 20:23
  • Previously, I had a lot of 'great' results. (four randomly selected examples) These days, I have a lot more hard and nitche questions that don't get answered, understandably, but now that I look at it, I have also had some unexpected 'odd' results in my endeavors to get answers. Here is my opinion on my last 10 questions: nitche nitche continued Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 21:32
  • continuation great odd/misunderstood great great odd/unhelpful odd/low-exposure great nitche In the early days it would be more like great great great great great. I think even if you account for the fact that I have harder questions, the number of quality answers has declined. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 21:33
  • 3
    Personally I think (at least part of) this idea will do more harm than good: If you expect up-voted questions to be "good," and thus reduce the waiting period, this incentivizes "repwhores" to upvote bad, easy questions in order to answer them more quickly. Commented May 2, 2014 at 19:09
  • This is exactly what I am talking about This doesn't even make any sense!
    – user177800
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 1:19
  • 3
    Don't you want to change questioner behaviour as well ? I think the probation period should prevent new-users from asking questions. By doing this, their impatience will force them to seek existing answers, and if successful, they won't ask the question.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 4:35
  • 1
    I think the question would need to be automatically bumped to the front page when the probation period ended, in the same way as if it had just been edited. Commented May 6, 2014 at 14:35
40

"Maybe if you are in the top 1% in the most popular tag in the question your vote weighs more"

This. In my opinion this is a solid path to focus on, where certain users's votes are weighted stronger. However, it needs to be rationally limited to a set of users that are knowledgeable with the subject. A very good way to measure the top users in a tag would be to leverage the tag badges.

If two users who have a gold tag badge pertinent to a question issue a close vote, the question should probably be closed (or probably will be very soon under the current system). I think it would make sense to allow users with a gold tag badge to have a 3x weight for close votes.

See: Increase close vote weight for gold tag badge holders and When did I get close-vote superpowers?

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  • 11
    For users to get the most score in a tag it usually involves rep farming anyway. This won't solve the issue and will just make answerers more greedy to try and get into the top 1% to gain even more influence. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 0:24
  • 34
    @OneKitten - Just because it takes a lot of upvotes to get a gold badge in a tag does not mean that those users "farm" reputation. It means they are large contributors to those tags and understand both the complex questions which arise, and the ones which would need to be directed to a canonical answer which already exists. Working extensively in a tag requires an understanding of not only that technology, but how the layout overall on Stack Overflow has been constructed for that tag. These are essentially the most qualified users to look to for this task.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 0:54
  • 16
    @OneKitten - Calling every user with a gold tag badge greedy is simply incorrect. These users are not trying to gain influence by answering questions, they tend to give well written factual answers which overall help the user base of the site. Taking the time to assist someone in solving their problem or dissecting nuance is not greedy. Far from it. These are the people who should be able to also give a weighted indication that a question should be closed as they are the most familiar with that type of question on Stack Overflow.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 0:57
  • 1
    What makes you think that it would work? Do you think that one in top 1% would vote to close as duplicate instead of answering?
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 5:35
  • 1
    No, it would not work!
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 5:41
  • 12
    No! I answer mostly in some low-traffic tags that are almost always co-tagged as [javascript]. JS users typically spam these questions with answers that are okay for JS-only, but flat-out wrong for the sum of the tags. Going off the most-popular tag would be a disaster (even though I have a gold badge in it). We'd need to go off the most relevant tag(s) and that may not be determinable by any sane algorithm. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:27
  • 3
    I'd suggest that if you're going with where people are in tags, you should consider the least popular, and thus most specialized, tag, not the most popular tag.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:40
  • 6
    Downvote. In the python Tag, many high-rep users are part of the problem as they answer bad questions without downvoting, closevoting, commenting that the question isn't up to SO standards and how it should be improved next time, and so on. But at least they're "helping" - helping the leeches to leech more...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 9:00
  • Why would being a C# expert qualify me to close based on reasons that have nothing to do with C#? I close because the question is methodically crap.
    – usr
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 12:11
  • 3
    Also, please note this isn't suggesting full moderator one click closure. It only adds weight to the vote. A single user could not do it on their own. These singular users cast close votes all the time, so that aspect would not change. Some will vtc, some wont, but the ones who do should have a stronger weight to their vote. Even with 3x it will require 2 of said votes to accomplish, or still 2 other users (meaning 3 agreed it should be closed - which is the same amount of high rep users it takes to delete a question and that has a much greater impact that closure).
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 14:34
  • 1
    I second you on utilizing "gold badge". However, note that not any "gold badge" holder should have extra power over others, such users should be chosen by the community and should be trustworthy.
    – Omar
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:47
  • 2
    You should break this out as a separate feature-request.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 19:13
  • 1
    a'ight, well... whenever. I have numbers.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 21:01
  • 2
    @Shog9 - Okay, you convinced me :P meta.stackexchange.com/q/230865/178816
    – Travis J
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 21:22
  • 1
    It is very rare that questions get closed because of something related to programming knowledge. Questions get closed either because they don't follow SO policies or because they lack common sense at some degree. So there is no particular reason why a person with a lot of rep for the given tag would make a better moderator than anyone else. Perhaps except for their experience of using the site.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 14:28
33

it just draws more and more people that don't care how the site is supposed to work, they just want a quick answer.

Exactly. Here's a radical idea against that: prior moderation.

If the amount of new questions to downvote/close is so high, we could use a "show queue" as the first step of moderation.

Any new question would show up on the main site only after having got a few "show-votes" from this queue processed by users with some level of rep. A question with no vote would never be published (or published after several days, I'm not sure, deleting questions is a bit extreme, delaying questions is less rude).

Anyway the quick-and-dirty questions, the problems that could be self-solved with a bit of research, the "write-my-code I need it for tomorrow" kinds of questions, would not show up in time to satisfy the asker. This would be made obvious in the Ask question page: a question needs to gain community approval to be published. The probability for a passer-by to quickly get an answer without spending precious brain glucose on it would tend to zero.

On the other hand, someone who spent hours or days researching a problem may supposedly wait a bit more to get answers from the community.

This might seem redundant with the vote system: readers can already consider the main site as their "show queue", by filtering out the questions that haven't been upvoted (search for score:+1 is:question, then sort by newest).

However in practice, readers don't do that; we don't really use votes to sort out the mess when there is too much of it. Instead we get upset by the mess and give up. This strategy of solving this with the votes has been tried and I believed failed on serverfault: Is ServerFault doomed? Not if we all vote more!

Here are some functionalities and tuning options I would consider for a "show queue" to be viable:

  • 1 or 2 upvotes is enough to be published.
  • the asker can modify the question at will.
  • questions can't be answered in the show queue, but they can be close-voted, especially as duplicates.
  • when a question is closed it goes to the close queue without ever being published. Unless it gets reopened from there.
  • questions can only be commented with generic texts (like close reasons) on why they're not acceptable in their current form. No free-form discussion.
12
  • 4
    I think there is some merit in this idea somewhere! Here is a similar idea, you have to wait to "Accept" an answer, why not publish the crap questions but for low rep users there is a "wait period" before people can Answer the questions, that gives the rest of the community time to Vote on the thing before it get RepWhored! I think I might write this up as another "answer" here.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:15
  • or: new policy: rep-points for answers only count if the question has a vote-count >= 0. or: other policy: rep-points for answers only count if the question is not closed ("protected by community" is okay of course)
    – Michael
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:52
  • 7
    @Michael that would just make things worse, everyone would UpVote every question they answer to make sure they get whatever reputation can no matter how terrible or duplicate the question actually is!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:54
  • 4
    ok, you're right. my second idea would work though, probably: "rep-points for answers only count if the question is not closed"
    – Michael
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:55
  • 1
    I don't think this scales to Stack Overflow, which gets thousands of new questions per day. And it's a really crappy user experience for people asking good questions - we don't want to discourage that. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 16:54
  • 4
    @jadarnel27: it scales because in my proposal the show queue is a buffer, not a pit. A question that is not show-voted gets kicked out anyway. As for the crappy user experience, the point is that we're having it now with good questions drown in the noise. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 23:01
  • I think the problem with prior moderation is that those who process the review queue might not always be qualified (although they may feel they are) to judge whether a question is good or bad on certain topics. Whether a question is published or not would highly depend on which users are currently reviewing the queue and whether that's their fields or not.
    – Bruno
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:51
  • show queue would be good, if we can do something to make sure the quality of user not question, as some newbies, throw there questions with a username of userxxxxxxxx and 1 reputation and just fly away at the speed of light.
    – Jamie
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 13:59
  • @DanielVérité, in my answer I suggest a machine learning algorithm to rate a question for duplicate likelihood. That algorithm could be applied to this 'show queue` as a sorting parameter, with more-unique questions being promoted to the front of the queue thereby giving them more visibility.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 0:46
  • 2
    -1 Users should be given the benefit of doubt and delaying their question until somebody accepts it (which may take some time or never happen just because nobody looked at it) is unreasonable IMO.
    – assylias
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 11:16
  • 2
    +1 this is the comp.lang.c++.moderated solution from usenet. It works. Of course none of these solutions will be done because maintaining quality militates against volume and community size. SO leadership want quality I am sure, but have clearly shown that they want volume more. Instagram wasn't bought because they had the best sepia filters they were bought for the membership list.
    – Ben
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 15:36
  • I've been proposing something like this quite a bit recently. Nice to see that there was, in fact, at least one person who thought of it years ago. Although I think there is a much simpler implementation: questions start out closed, and have to be voted for opening. Then there are separate views available with and without these questions, according to whether each user wants to answer questions or curate the site. Commented Jul 1, 2023 at 20:30
26

The problem, in the area in which I'm experienced and constantly monitoring Stack Overflow (iOS), is severe and becoming more so at an exponential rate. This particular sphere seems to have attracted, in droves, what we used to call "script kiddies".

Questioners of this ilk are not doing any research or any work of their own - they aren't reading the documentation, they aren't googling for books or tutorials or examples, they aren't searching Stack Overflow, they aren't trying to write any code of their own - they just post, because what they think happens here is that your code gets magically written for you. And, alas, they are right.

The results:

  • I'm seeing the same questions over and over.

  • I'm seeing way too many questioners expecting code to be written for free (as opposed to their wanting to learn something, which is what I thought the site was supposed to be about).

  • I'm seeing way too many questions that show a lack of all basic knowledge of the subject; questioners are coding "mechanically" without any understanding of what their own code means or does.

I propose a two-pronged solution:

  • Much higher penalties for wasting bandwidth, especially for very-low-rep questioners. The bar for entry needs to be high! For example, there might be a rule that if you are marked a duplicate, and you have rep less than 100, you should lose 10 points rep and be barred from Stack Overflow for a month. Similarly for asking trivial questions that display laziness, gormlessness, etc. (and "close" markings should include things like "laziness" and "gormlessness"; these need to be the actual names of actual cardinal sins).

  • More power to high-rep users to nip this kind of thing in the bud. For example, allow us to close without extra votes (close summarily) and then delete without extra votes. This may seem extreme, but believe me, I'm downvoting questions and voting to close questions all day (in what is intended to be a helpful way, not a punitive way) and I'm not making a dent in the flood (mixed metaphor, sorry). It is not for want of trying, believe me. If you want people like me to stay here, you need to give us more ability to help clean things up.

8
  • 20
    I'm seeing way too many questions that show a lack of all basic knowledge of the subject; ... We need the close reason back that basically said, "you won't understand the answer anyway"!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:54
  • @JarrodRoberson I was actually about to add to "laziness" and "gormlessness" another category, something like "too ignorant" or "not up to the level of a Stack Overflow question".
    – matt
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:59
  • 6
    Here's a case in point: stackoverflow.com/questions/23399015/… Look, he doesn't even ask a question! He just throws his existing (not working) code at the magic wall that is Stack Overflow. He doesn't ask what's wrong with the code. He doesn't even have to say "fix this for me!" But sure enough, people come along and rewrite his code for him. And he learns NOTHING. Is this really what we're here for?
    – matt
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 22:42
  • 1
    Here's a good "gormlessness" candidate: stackoverflow.com/questions/23411657/… There is an Editor > Fix All In Scope menu item and he's too lazy even to look for it. There should be a way for us to push back immediately on this kind of waste of bandwidth.
    – matt
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 17:40
  • whats to stop them from making a new account? (banned account and no rep = low barrier to entry). Commented May 2, 2014 at 19:17
  • @MarshallTigerus Makes me want to suggest two Stack Overflows, the second for people who have gained more than e.g. 5000 rep on the first one...
    – matt
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 0:55
  • If you want a private StackOverflow for the "leet" only, then host a QA on your own server and stop using a public site.
    – Cypher
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 20:19
  • 1
    Daniel's "show queue" idea is better, so forget my "two Stack Overflows". If even just <200-rep users had to pass thru a show queue in order to ask a question at all, we'd soon separate the sheep from the goats and save oodles of wasted bandwidth.
    – matt
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 15:53
23

I feel like basically every meta SO question is just a rehash of Clay Shirky's A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy. Every moderator of a site should read it at least once a year just for that "Yeah, yeah, YEAH!" feeling. I will quote the part relevant to this discussion:

You have to find a way to spare the group from scale. Scale alone kills conversations, because conversations require dense two-way conversations. In conversational contexts, Metcalfe's law is a drag. The fact that the amount of two-way connections you have to support goes up with the square of the users means that the density of conversation falls off very fast as the system scales even a little bit. You have to have some way to let users hang onto the less is more pattern, in order to keep associated with one another.

This is an inverse value to scale question. Think about your Rolodex. A thousand contacts, maybe 150 people you can call friends, 30 people you can call close friends, two or three people you'd donate a kidney to. The value is inverse to the size of the group. And you have to find some way to protect the group within the context of those effects.

Sometimes you can do soft forking. Live Journal does the best soft forking of any software I've ever seen, where the concepts of "you" and "your group" are pretty much intertwingled. The average size of a Live Journal group is about a dozen people. And the median size is around five.

But each user is a little bit connected to other such clusters, through their friends, and so while the clusters are real, they're not completely bounded -- there's a soft overlap which means that though most users participate in small groups, most of the half-million LiveJournal users are connected to one another through some short chain.

IRC channels and mailing lists are self-moderating with scale, because as the signal to noise ratio gets worse, people start to drop off, until it gets better, so people join, and so it gets worse. You get these sort of oscillating patterns. But it's self-correcting.

And then my favorite pattern is from MetaFilter, which is: When we start seeing effects of scale, we shut off the new user page. "Someone mentions us in the press and how great we are? Bye!" That's a way of raising the bar, that's creating a threshold of participation. And anyone who bookmarks that page and says "You know, I really want to be in there; maybe I'll go back later," that's the kind of user MeFi wants to have.

You have to find some way to protect your own users from scale. This doesn't mean the scale of the whole system can't grow. But you can't try to make the system large by taking individual conversations and blowing them up like a balloon; human interaction, many to many interaction, doesn't blow up like a balloon. It either dissipates, or turns into broadcast, or collapses.

So suggestions:

  • Set a daily new question limit. If it's that important that they'll come back tomorrow, and like Clay's Metafilter example, that person will ipso facto probably be a better user than the average new user.

    • Stronger version: Set a daily new user limit.
    • Variant: Only top N (1000?) questions by rep submitted per today show up on site. So if a question is voted down out of the top 1000, it simply goes into an invisible queue for tomorrow.
  • Fork off the major tags into their own sites. Let "Hot Questions" seep back into the main site.

11
  • 1
    These are great ideas for a forum type environment that is discussion based, SO and the SE sites in general are the opposite of that.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 15:53
  • 13
    Shirky's whole point is there's no such thing as "the opposite".
    – Kyle Hale
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 16:09
  • 1
    Thanks for linking to the article. It was interesting, but I don't think that the suggestions you draw from it will have the effects you desire. People will just jockey to have their question in. If submissions are weighted by submitter rep, it'll become a club of people who "ran the race and declared it over." More than a thousand questions are already asked each day. The invisible queue for tomorrow will only grow and never shrink. Commented May 2, 2014 at 19:23
  • @Michael To your last point - First, never say never. Secondly, set the number higher if that's the issue. Third, why is that a bad thing?
    – Kyle Hale
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 20:00
  • 1
    @Michael And to your first point, let people jockey - again, the goal of the site is not to maximize throughput, it's to create a high-quality software Q&A site / library.
    – Kyle Hale
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 20:00
  • The OP is complaining about signal-to-noise ratio, these suggestions reduce noise. And Shirky's essay is literally all about SNR management in Internet communities.
    – Kyle Hale
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 20:02
  • @KyleHale: Shirky also says that there will be a "core group" who is frustrated by emergent behavior and makes rules to limit it, like OP and most of the answer posts. I think that most of the limitations will frustrate and discourage people from actually asking questions and drive them elsewhere. "Pick up their coats and leave" because it wasn't working for them, as Shirky says. Commented May 2, 2014 at 20:16
  • 2
    If the objective of SO is to make a Q&A site with the highest quality questions and answers, I submit that the ultimate end is canonical questions and answers, all touched up by Community Wiki, keyword-stuffed, with every duplicate deleted (not linked---gone). You can perhaps increase the signal-to-noise by making higher hoops for newcomers to jump through, but at some point you will not have anything for a newbie to do to get to the level where you trust them to do anything. Commented May 2, 2014 at 20:19
  • 1
    And by doing so, you will have excluded them from asking any interesting question they may have: now or at any time in the future. Commented May 2, 2014 at 20:21
  • @KyleHale, selecting new questions by highest rep first is a great idea.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 0:01
  • 2
    @KyleHale, A slight variation could be that queue is visible to high rep users, who can moderate it (but not answer questions).
    – dilbert
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 0:05
20

A Guided Downvote Experience for New Users

Custom close reasons are absolutely unrealistic given the current influx of poor questions. Such efforts are wasted on most new user questions anyway, because they simply don't care.

However, we all recognize that some new users do care and will go on to contribute to the site if we don't scare them off right away. For this reason, we tend not to downvote without commenting, which allows poor questions to linger.

One solution would be to provide a built-in experience for new users whose questions are downvoted. If we trusted this system to work, we could downvote new users with peace of mind that--if they really care--they will be guided towards being better contributors.

So what would this guided experience look like? Here's one idea:

  • When a low-rep user's question receive's X downvotes, notify them with a link to the asking FAQ. (Or is this already done?)

  • If they spend X minimum amount of time on the asking FAQ, give them another notification:

    Do you need help fixing your question: How to center my PHP navbar. ?

    It is critical that this question be worded in such a way that the new user must acknowledge that their question is broken in order to get help. If they say yes, put their question in a (new) review queue in which somebody can provide them a comment about how to improve their post and/or why it isn't appropriate for the site. I would suggest also automatically putting the question on hold so the process has time to work.

This isn't asking a lot from new users. They just have to spend a few seconds on the FAQ and click a button. All the same, my guess is that 90% of new users wouldn't go to the trouble.

And what is the cost-benefit for the community's effort at reviewing this new queue? Even if we put aside the value to the new user herself and the dividends of teaching her to effectively contribute, I have to think that one reviewer providing a comment is worth avoiding the potential involvement of 25 reviewers in closing the question. (In addition to the 5 close votes, I'm thinking probably more downvotes, a few flags, and three reviewers per flag.)

Another reason this is better than the close-explanation is that new users often ask a series of low-quality questions, and this system could throttle the amount of help they're entitled to. For instance, they could be limited to one review per day and if they don't improve their questions or delete them before they're closed, they could be cut off completely.

2
  • 2
    I like your idea for a review queue where users can get help improving their posts. What do you think about allowing users to voluntarily submit their question to the review queue for comments, edits and "this is a dupe"s before officially posting it?
    – MattT
    Commented Jul 10, 2014 at 3:48
  • 1
    I like. It means the user has to actually make a trade-off to get the extra help and will avoid wasting review time on users who don't care. In fact, questions should probably always become non-public when the OP puts them in this voluntary review queue. Commented Jul 10, 2014 at 14:03
14

The feature that looks under-utilized is flagging very low quality questions. This is truly fantastic and very powerful functionality if one understands how to use it correctly.

If you think of it, VLQ flags really address many of the points you raise. Let's see...

Maybe some close reasons need to have a higher weight than others?

Questions flagged VLQ go to queue that has many eyeballs and typical processing time in a matter of minutes. If this doesn't qualify as "higher weight" then I don't know what does.

Why don't closed questions get down voted more?

Questions closed with VLQ flag get an automatic downvote from a system. If you believe question is so bad that it needs to "get down voted more", system is right there to help you accomplish this.

More creative algorithm

I find it hard to imagine a "better algorithm weighting of who is voting to close" than one provided by Low Quality review queue. Think of it, this "algorithm" involves permanent manual scrutiny and calibration of active community members.

One whose flags are accepted by community gets "weight" in the form of closed questions they flag, one who flags irresponsibly, gets no weight as their flags are disputed / declined and ignored.


One can flag up to 100 (hundred!) low quality questions a day even when out of down and close votes.

This is a great power if one learns how to use it right.

8
  • 9
    I would never think of flagging a questions that I could vote to close, as we have been told for years not to use flags if there is any other option open to us. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 9:36
  • @IanRingrose neither would I... a while ago. But things seem to be changed recently, and I decided to give it a new try, and it looks like worth it. "How does it feel like for a (responsible) flagger? In a word, great..."
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 10:14
  • 3
    ...but, @IanRingrose it is worth noting that at first, this may feel like riding a wild horse compared to conventional flagging. Before, there were 17 diamonds, elected and trained, handling your flags following reasonably well documented rules. Now, you throw it to a crowd of 30,000 regular 2K users, and any of them can dispute your flag any time... and there's simply no way to challenge this on meta, because they just don't bother reading meta. Sounds scary? :)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 11:27
  • gnat has a point, all it takes is one person to put a halt to the VLQ question flag process. I do all this, down vote, close vote and flag VLQ, it doesn't seem to make much of an impact in my experience.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 14:58
  • @JarrodRoberson my experience is somewhat more positive, I think I've got a feel for what kind questions trigger blocking "Looks Good" less frequently. Also, I try to flag questions that are likely to already have system / other users flags, leveraging a feature that single “looks good” should not mean the post is “good”
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 15:14
  • 1
    @JarrodRoberson it takes one person to halt one flag in VLQ and kick it out of the queue with a 'looks good' (edit is still a frustrating thing). Each looks good 'cancels' only one flag. Multiple flags? It takes multiple looks good to eject it from the queue. And people are more likely to close (questions) than recommend delete (answers). Its another queue that moves faster for the truly awful stuff that needs to be closed promptly and get the appropriate feedback of "this is closed, you need to fix it before you get an answer" to the OP.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:07
  • I think the system has changed, nowadays I see an absolute minimum of 2 "Looks Good" required. Having said that, the sheer number of robo-reviewers still makes this a challenge. Just then I tried this suggestion, all 3 flags got disputed, but two of those flagged were closed 5 minutes later. Commented May 6, 2014 at 13:11
  • 2
    @Qantas94Heavy out of interest, I checked 200 flags I submitted for last 7 days: 4 are disputed (2 of these refer questions that were closed anyway), 1 is declined. The rest is marked helpful and referred posts are either closed or deleted. 195:5, I feel comfortable about this ratio
    – gnat
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 13:19
6

I noticed your counts didn't add up at the bottom. Specifically, you say 12,061 posts were re-opened after being closed (is there any other way to be reopened?), yet 864 + 205 + 60 does not equal 12,061.

Taking a look at the query you have as a comment here I think you are making a mistake using the ClosedDate. That changes and is only set for questions that are currently closed. So your 60 (now 130) are only counting questions that were 1) closed, 2) re-opened at some point, 3) closed again and remain closed and 4) have the owner edit the post after the final closing.

You keep saying they shouldn't add up to some aggregate total, but if this is what you intended, I think it needs to be explained in the question well. Specifically this statement is dead wrong:

Only 60 questions that were last edited by their owner after being
closed made it to re-open status out of 312,039 total closed!

Running my own queries I get the following counts, counting questions only, not answers:

470,635 that were closed
 23,711 that were reopened (3,463 with score of 10 or more)
 16,141 that were reopened where anyone edited the body after it was closed
 11,509 that were reopened where the owner edited the body after it was closed

Links to the queries:

  1. Count Closed Posts
  2. Count Reopened Questions
  3. Count Reopened Questions Edited By Owner
  4. Count Reopened Questions Edited At All
3
  • comparing your queries to mine is kind of apples to oranges, the queries I ran are even worse ratios today than a year ago.
    – user177800
    Commented Nov 15, 2015 at 18:39
  • that is because the numbers are not supposed to add up to some aggregate total my numbers hold up still and those numbers are more depressing a year later at only 130.
    – user177800
    Commented Nov 15, 2015 at 18:41
  • @JarrodRoberson I see the problem. Your query checks 'ClosedDate'. That should only be present if the question is actually closed. Your detailed counts are only counting questions that were closed again after being reopened. The real number is more like my 11,509. Check this query and the links, the questions you count are still closed and the ones you ignore are now open: So 130 people have had their question re-opened, then closed, then edited their question again. Commented Nov 16, 2015 at 8:41
3

If a major part of the issue is that people answer poor quality questions, why not

Give negative rep to users who have posted answers to questions that get closed.

I think that would make users think twice about answering questions that are low quality, and are more likely to start commenting with suggestions on how to fix the question.

Low quality question askers will be discouraged from posting MORE low quality questions, and focus on understanding why no one is answering their questions (hopefully by reading comments on the question).

10
  • 3
    I'm not sure if it's good practice, but there are a few questions that I've answered and also voted to move to SF or SU. Unfortunately, some of them never get migrated (or even closed). If I know the answer, I just tend to answer when I see the question, instead of having to wait for the closing votes to be cast (which can last a few days). (Note that I'm not necessarily talking about bad quality questions, but questions that would be more appropriate on SU, SF or perhaps Security.SE.)
    – Bruno
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:19
  • 2
    @Bruno Well, perhaps there could be negative ramifications ONLY if the question is closed because of low quality? tend to answer when I see the question, instead of having to wait for the closing votes to be cast ... isnt that what we are trying to prevent in some way :) ?
    – you786
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:41
  • If a bad question is left without an answer then good people will keep spending their valuable time looking at the bad question only to discover that it is too bad to be answered. So, if you took your time to read a bad question and you know a good answer then you better post it (or a link to it as an answer) thus letting others to know that the question was answered, instead of letting the unanswered question to attract more people.
    – ArtemGr
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:51
  • 2
    @ArtemGr - NO, you read a bad question down vote it and close vote it for the correct reason. But whatever you do, don't contribute to the problem!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 18:56
  • 1
    @JarrodRoberson No, it doesn't work that way. Most unanswered questions I see are in the border zone, they stay without down-votes, without flags and without answers, and people looking for questions have to dig thru that crap. If it was black and white, either very good questions or definitely bad, then sure, your plan would work, but it is the gray zone questions that eat my everyday mind traffic on SO. P.S. And don't shout at me.
    – ArtemGr
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 19:03
  • 1
    @ArtemGr Sure, if you find a bad question, you can leave the question for others to look at, if you don't want to close or downvote. But why should we reward answering it?
    – you786
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 19:40
  • @you786 And why should we penalize a person who answered it?
    – ArtemGr
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 19:47
  • 5
    @ArtemGr The whole point of penalizing the answerers is because I'm postulating that answering "bad" questions encourages more bad questions. If no one answers bad questions, don't you think users would stop asking them, and instead put more effort into making quality questions?
    – you786
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 19:51
  • @you786 Indeed I don't. SO is not a closed environment, the questions were mostly good a few years back but now they are mostly bad (cf. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252506/…). Because new users come. No matter what you do with the bad questions, whether you will answer them or not, there will be more bad questions from new users. Also, a person has no way of knowing whether the question is going to be closed before it is closed. If we automatically knew bad questions from good we woud've nothing to discusss there.
    – ArtemGr
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 19:59
  • 1
    @you786 I've seen relatively good questions, with good answers - closed (and never reopened despite the edits) and I've seen poor questions sitting indefinitely on SE with no downvotes/flags and answers. As it is, whether the question is demed good or bad remains to a large degree a matter of opinion and chance. Your proposal will further penalize the users who are trying to improve the site by answering questions and will promote unanswered questions.
    – ArtemGr
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 20:36
-4

Some ideas:

  • Machine learning: Use a machine learning algorithm targeted on deleted/closed questions so to semi-automate the process. Upon closing or deleting a question, the algorithm is given a closing reason (from a fixed set, no custom rules). Subsequently asked questions are scanned for similarity to previously closed questions and are visually hinted if they exceed a given threshold. These questions identified as similar, should also have looser deletion requirements (ie: a single vote).

  • Probation period (new users): New users should be subject to a fixed-time (ie: 1 hour) probation period, during which they are unable to ask questions. The user's resulting frustration should motivate them to conduct further research before asking.

  • Probation period (existing users): Existing users should be subject to a variable-time probation period for their next question only. The period is a 15 minute multiple of the number of downvotes on their last deleted/closed question. The period begins when the user attempts to ask a new question. The user should be visually notified that they are on probation, also giving the reason and remaining time.

8
  • 2
    Downvotes and no critique ? That's as lazy as the new users asking questions.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 23:12
  • I don't like the idea of punishing users who have not and may not do anything wrong.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 14:36
  • My most recent question was 8 months ago and had 1 downvote, if i were go to ask a question now, i would have to wait 15 minutes longer after i've already spent time researching it myself. Of course, i (or anyone) could bypass that timer by asking a question and immediately deleting it after having a downvoted question.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 14:50
  • @KevinB, that's understandable however the vast majority of these poor questions come from new users and they need a deterrent. The exact delay times should be subject to debate; the idea of question-asking probation is being raised here. If people had the courtesy to self-close or self-delete their own questions, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And no you couldn't avoid the timer it because you'd still have to wait to ask the question. Attempting to by-pass this by creating a new account wouldn't work either, as they would still have to wait an hour on the new account.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 0:21
  • "because you'd still have to wait to ask the question" can't i just do that in a separate tab, where it sits while i go get lunch? its not like i'd be waiting to ask a real question.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 1:04
  • Whether or not you intend for it to be real question is irrelevant; you still have to wait. If you can multi task, that's great but given SO is not an omnipotent being, it can't glue you to your chair and force you to watch a timer anyway. If you wanted to be draconian, there could be javascript to monitor mouse activity and use that to qualify the waiting period, but alas, that would be extreme. In any case, to game the system they would have to know this in advance (which they probably won't) and you don't fit the user profile anyway.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 1:14
  • @KevinB, regarding your most recent question, that wasn't closed or deleted so you wouldn't be eligible for probation anyway.
    – dilbert
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 4:38
  • Ah, i missed the "last deleted/closed" point.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 4:56
-6

I'm in no way an expert SO user, but I too observe the things that bother you guys. From my perspective, they are usually easy rep gainers (I guess that makes me a bit of a rep whore, doesn't it?).

Anyway, I feel moderation of low quality questions should be automated somewhat. Here's my take:

  1. High rep user's questions get higher priority on the front page. The formula could involve +reputation, +upvotes, -number of answers, -upvotes on answers, etc.

  2. A user can get negative rep through downvotes / questions closed.

  3. A question that receives no activity (no views, comments, edits, etc.) will be auto-closed after X days, auto-erased after Y days more.

  4. In case of #3 or moderator close, the OP could be penalised (with reversal if the question is successfully revived in time).

  5. A validated question, such as the above Warren's example (the question is: how do you validate it?) should penalise downvoters.

  6. Asking a question should cost a fixed amount of rep.

The above measures would increase barrier to entry on SE sites as they would favour experienced users over newbies. It would be much harder to get answers for newbies as their questions would hardly ever be seen. Mostly they would have to place bounties to make their questions seen. This is somewhat in line with rep requirements already in place on SE sites (can't upvote before X, can't downvote before Y, etc.).

Especially #6 by itself could easily prevent non-researched questions. It does pose a problem though because as far as I remember, asking a good question is one of the few ways you can start getting rep here.

8
  • There are some things I find interesting with your proposal, but there are also other things that I disagree with. I'll explain more later if I have time. -1 for now. Good answer though. Oh, by the way, "automatised" is not a commonly used word, I had to look it up. Nothing wrong with it, just watch out for people who try to edit it to something like "automated" instead.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 9:40
  • 7
    3. is not very well thought-out and has nothing to do with the problem at hand. A huge part of the problem is that crappy questions get the most activity, as they're often easy to answer. Questions with low views are mostly in niche tags that are not followed by many people. Punishing people for the fact that their community is smaller doesn't seem very helpful here. Also, you couldn't choose a metric that fits both tags followed by >10k people and small tags followed by a handful of core users anyways...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:07
  • @l4mpi: you're right, this doesn't deal well with infrequent tags. I suppose #6 alone would cut down on number of low quality questions, but #6 alone really isn't a match to the topic at hand. Cupcake: it was meant to be "automated", sorry, not a native speaker so sometimes it shows.
    – velis
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 10:19
  • 1
    The main problem with #6 is that most of the garbage comes from anonymous 1-rep accounts. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 16:58
  • @velis your answer was written in very good English, I couldn't tell that it wasn't your native language, I just thought you were using a smart fancy word ;)
    – user456814
    Commented May 1, 2014 at 5:53
  • #3 - downvoted unanswered questions get auto-deleted after some time (30 days I think). #5 - you want people to get penalized for disagreeing with others? That seems to discourage having any opinion whatsoever. #2 - is this targeting the downvoters or those getting downvoted? Commented May 4, 2014 at 14:28
  • 1
    Downvoting is not disagreeing. It's rejecting. That's a difference.
    – velis
    Commented May 5, 2014 at 7:29
  • @RyneEverett: That's exactly what #6 would solve then since such a user couldn't ask a question before gaining some rep first.
    – velis
    Commented Jun 10, 2015 at 9:08
-9

I think this is going completely the wrong way. One could also read the statistics as follows:

300000 questions from people with next to no prior experience are trying to learn programming and have choosen stackoverflow.com to be their support in this.

Stack Overflow is not just a Q&A site, but also a social network to help people engage in programming and computer science. Closing and downvoting answers that have been asked already is actually closer to being hostile to newcomers than anything else.

What is really missing is some kind of target audience for a question. I've been a teaching assistant for a while, and I can tell you listening to people learning to code is always feeling as if you are trying to teach a monkey how to read. At the same time it is not necessary for every seasoned developer to listen to newbie problems.

So locking people out from Stack Overflow who seem to ask "stupid questions" is harsh. It is sufficient to have better filters on Stack Overflow, such that people who are not interested in going for the low hanging fruit (helping newbies and script kiddies) can just ignore those questions.

This would require:

  • Make sure that questions are tagged correctly when asking. Make sure that people who are posting homework assignments or really beginners questions will end up in the right places.
  • Make sure that newbies will immediately see that coming and asking also means to look at other peoples questions (that they can cope with) and help them as well. It's give and take after all.
  • Have a clear way to elevate problems to more seasoned Stack Overflow users, if enough newbies agree that this question is too difficult to solve on their own, while at the same time try to avoid abusive use of this feature.
  • Make sure that the front page can be customized to your taste and automatically filters questions you are not interested in.

It would create a space for newbies on Stack Overflow while at the same time putting them together to let them figure out how it works without you noticing their activity. If they can't solve the problem on their own they still can escalate this for somebody. This is then the first step of moderation, where somebody feels tempted to mark it as a duplicate and close it.

Whenever you see a newbie question just try to remember how long it took you to write Hello World for the first time, because you were missing the semi-colon.

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  • 8
    The site has made it's goals and purpose very clear. The types of questions that you're trying to save are explicitly considered to be outside of this site's scope. It doesn't want those types of questions. The site is not meant to be everything for everyone. When trying to create a site in which every single question is welcome, you drive away certain types of users. SO has thrived specifically because it demands a high quality from all contributions. There are other places for people to go if they want to be able to post low quality content. SO is not the entire internet.
    – Servy
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 17:09
  • @Servy and who decides that? my point being: people who are being locked out this way won't fade away and the administrative overhead is growing larger. If there is a place where people can ask those questions without being too exposed to all SO users the problem might go away by itself. Commented May 7, 2014 at 17:15
  • 11
    The site's founders decided that when they created this site. That is why they created it, it is what they designed it to support. The company has gone out of its way, since day one, to encourage quality content and get rid of low quality content. There are tons of other sites out there that don't have quality standards, and to which people can ask whatever they want, however they want. Those sites have much lower quality answers than SO. That's not a coincidence. SO has more experts, and better quality answers, because it doesn't accept low quality questions.
    – Servy
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 17:19
  • 2
    @Servy SO actually accepts low quality content, it requires manual moderation to get rid of the unwanted content again. And this might be annoying users more. Commented May 7, 2014 at 18:22
  • 8
    The types of users that SO wants to attract, the subject experts that provide high quality answers to lots of high quality questions, tend to be driven away by lots of low quality questions. They are not generally driven away by the moderation activities that get rid of such questions. In fact, they tend to be annoyed when those moderation actions fail to get rid of such questions. Yes, some users feel the opposite and get upset when crappy questions get closed/deleted. Those are the users that we don't want here.
    – Servy
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 18:25
  • 1
    @Servy - what a difference 3 years makes
    – user177800
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:28
  • @JarrodRoberson Not really sure how what's going on here has changed over the past several years...
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:29
  • 2
    @Servy - quality is no longer in the charter statement and has been replaced indirectly with quantity and pointed directly at being a social networking site in the near future with Where Developers Learn, Share & ​Build Their Careers.
    – user177800
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:34
  • 1
    @JarrodRoberson The site has struggled with quality problems from day 1. It's done a lot more than its competitors, which is why it's come as far as it has, but it hasn't done as much as many of us would have liked them to (myself included) even at the time of my earlier comments.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 5, 2017 at 17:37
  • 1
    "Stack Overflow is not just a Q&A site, but also a social network to help people engage in programming and computer science. Closing and downvoting answers that have been asked already is actually closer to being hostile to newcomers than anything else." This is not merely wrong; it is the most fundamentally wrong thing that is ever habitually said about Stack Overflow. Commented Jul 1, 2023 at 20:06
-12

Downvotes != bad question

I am unconvinced that downvotes and question closures have very much to do with the quality of the question. In my experience, the questions that get closed within seconds of being posed are questions where the reviewers aren't able to understand the question. They assume that because they can't understand it, nobody can understand it.

Granted, many of these questions are posed by newbies who aren't good at writing questions yet, and are thus awkwardly phrased. However, usually someone who is willing to read the question carefully and who understands the subject matter can understand what is being asked.

Example: good question voted down to -19

Here's an interesting case in point. This question managed to garner a net vote of -19 as of this writing:

PayPal Subscribe button with modify - I am breaking it somehow - how?

I suspect the only reason it wasn't closed is because the user is clearly not a newbie, having a rep of over 100k. So how come the downvotes? I can only conclude that the downvoters simply didn't understand the subject matter well enough to understand the question, and downvoted it on that basis. It's a perfectly reasonable and even well phrased question, if you understand the programming specializations it concerns.

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    One thing to take into perspective when analyzing questions from high-rep users with few questions are revenge downvotes. Many high-rep users who exercise their moderation powers and leave comments for downvotes will be the target of revenge downvotes. I admire those people because they can suck it up for the greater good.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:46
  • 19
    For everyone of these false positives there are hundreds if not thousands of other highly localized incomplete questions that are abandoned and just noise on the front page. Downvotes get them off the front page and make room for the signal questions to shine through. Seems like every question posted is spammed with java and javascript tags regardless of what they actual refer to.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:46
  • @WarrenDew Tell me what you think when get to 10K rep and get access to the moderator tools, you will be singing a different tune when you see the full extent of what we are talking about!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:50
  • 1
    @JarrodRoberson Only about 10% of questions have the java tag, and the vast majority of those actually involve Java. "Seems like" tends to be a poor indication of how things actually are, and perhaps more of an indication of what the person's hot buttons are.
    – Warren Dew
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:52
  • 3
    I said java AND javascript, the vampires just tag spam to get attention and game the system. I lost count of how many questions have both of these tags and nothing to do with either one!
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 6:55
  • 11
    An anecdote/example of just one question makes for a weak, uncompelling, and unconvincing argument, in my opinion. Stack Overflow currently gets 8000 questions/day. You would have a stronger argument if you could bring more math and statistics to this gun-fight. Or at the very least, more evidence than just a single question.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:14
  • 9
    Furthermore, I strongly disagree with the argument that high-rep users are irresponsible and unprofessional enough to downvote a question that they do not understand...or at least, I disagree with the degree to which that is a problem, given the volume of questions that Stack Overflow gets.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:16
  • 4
    Slight change of subject: how can people be allowed to vote to delete this reasonable answer on Meta! I mean deleted questions with a low score on the main sites is fair enough, but meta being more opinion-based, this is just censorship.
    – Bruno
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:28
  • 1
    If that's of interest: meta.stackexchange.com/q/230794/148833
    – Bruno
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:47
  • 6
    This is very true... and unfortunately some of the moderators are amongst the worst offenders, especially as their vote acts as an instant-close. There's a real failure mode, for less popular topics, where those who actually understand the subject matter and want to address it, get involved in a voting war with those who make off-the cuff calls based on a cursory reading, or mistake what is actually a very intricate case for a different, trivial issue. Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 20:27
  • 4
    I find it quite ironic that an answer criticizing the abuse of downvotes and closes by members is downvoted so much and is voted to be deleted. Pretty much speaks volumes.
    – Pat
    Commented May 6, 2014 at 11:45
  • 3
    @pat There are far too many people invested in supporting the gaming of the system than are interested in improving the system output Commented May 7, 2014 at 7:19
  • 2
    @JarrodRoberson: I feel that making sure complex, hard-to answer question never make it to the front page a very bad move. I've seen several question which were closed while I was answering it because someone simply didn't understand it but it was clear and obvious for me. Commented May 7, 2014 at 11:46
  • 1
    @Cupcake: I've seen this. I can't give you examples or numbers but my feeling is that high-rep users have started to become more offensive in the last 12 months. Commented May 7, 2014 at 11:48
  • 3
    @AaronDigulla The problem is you will be asked by those people to provide figures, because they know you can't query something like 'good questions that didn't deserve to be closed'. Personally I'm lucky that most my questions have been about quick to answer things, but when I'm searching for a solution I always find great questions that shouldn't have been closed and who's answer would have been tremendously helpful. Then again, I'm not surprised with this kind of attitude around meta.stackoverflow.com/a/252740/2621357 That gets upvoted to hell, while this is downvoted.
    – Pat
    Commented May 7, 2014 at 12:12

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