-35

Firstly I should say that I (mostly) understand Stack Overflow's Q&A format. I have recently started answering questions more often and throughout the day I see many questions that are just asked by people who have either no idea what they are doing, or they have just started programming and they have come across problems that are trivial for an intermediate/advanced programmer.

These questions are mostly met with a rain of downvotes and a mix of aggressive and semi-helpful comments. In the end, almost always, the question is closed and the beginner doesn't receive any meaningful answer. Or that is what I experienced when I was just started using the site. Although I understand that SO is meant to be a repository for information and the questions are preferred to be searchable over the internet (which is usually not the case for beginner questions), I feel like this negative response pushes beginners away from Stack Overflow.

I am by no means experienced on this site but I think that this wave of negative attitudes towards beginners is damaging to their development. When I first started using the site to ask questions I was banned from asking questions on a couple of accounts. Over time I better understood SO's format and I was able to ask better questions. But I reached this point by asking more and more questions rather than working on a single question in detail which is why it took me many accounts to get here.

Moreover, I feel like when people are met with downvotes, they feel like they are doing something bad even though it is not necessarily their fault. Yes, they could have read "how to ask questions" and studied already answered questions and etc, but most beginners neither have the terminology vocabulary nor the required experience and information to ask the types of questions that more experienced programmers can ask.

I cannot think of any way to resolve this issue but to change the community's attitude toward such matters. Maybe a specific tag could be opened for beginners which would prevent their questions from being seen on the main page, which would certainly decrease the attention they would get in which case they won't get a meaningful answer anyways. Either way I feel like this is an issue that has to be addressed better than "just close the question" to support new programmers in their journey instead of killing their passion for programming, especially for questions that show a genuine request for help where the question is easily answerable.


For some context below is the question that finally prompted to post here. But I see many other posts and questions like this everyday. They lack clarity/focus but they are easily answerable and not a duplicate per se. Or even they were a duplicate, the question is so trivial that the answer itself doesn’t carry any value that would make it a duplicate

question the prompted the post

26
  • 2
    "Maybe a specific tag could be opened for beginners which would prevent their questions from being seen on the main page" There's an ongoing project called Staging Ground (a new feature that hasn't been released yet) which is supposed to do something like that. I, personally, am not so optimistic about it but I hope to be proven wrong and that it ends up improving the quality of questions by new users.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:11
  • See also: this answer from a couple of days ago.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:13
  • 12
    You are not a beginner at asking questions, you've been doing that your whole life. If the question is poorly asked, missing key details, etc etc then it gets closed regardless if the problem is trivial or not. You just think it's because the question is trivial, it's not. It's because the question is low quality.
    – JK.
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:20
  • 1
    @ÖzgürGüzeldereli No, it's not the same. As you stated, the close reason for #1 is "duplicate". Re "I see some questions that aren't closed because they are duplicates but because they don't show their own research" If that's indeed the reason, then it's the wrong one, but how do you know it was closed for that reason? Also, note that not all beginner questions are bad. SO has many very highly upvoted beginner questions. It's just pretty darn difficult to come up with a new beginner question that isn't a duplicate when the site has been live for 14 years (unless it's about a new tech).
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:27
  • 11
    Please tell me this question didn't influence you to write this post.
    – Savior
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:35
  • 17
    There is no redeemable or long lasting value to that post. It doesn't help anyone. It's not even a question, it's a requirement dump with some begging and pleading. It's absurd to me that you'd make an effort to write an answer for them (after your initial code only edit). If this post is what you mean by I feel like this negative response pushes beginners away from Stack Overflow, we should do more of it (the response, not the post).
    – Savior
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:43
  • 13
    Using Stack Overflow doesn't mean asking questions. On the contrary, the whole reason for Stack Overflow is to avoid asking the same questions over and over again.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 22:59
  • 18
    People asking questions aren't entitled to receive an answer. They are not even promised or guaranteed that their question will ever receive any answers. They should know that when posting questions.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 23:01
  • 19
    We are too welcoming. A lot of answers can already be found by googling the error message or a short description of the problem. Stack Overflow welcomes everyone to use this abundant knowledge. But by diluting this information we are actually making it harder for beginners to use the site properly. To be properly welcoming, we should put more focus into curating existing questions and answers instead of answering every new question being posted here.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2022 at 23:12
  • 3
    Sorry to say, if you can ask this question, you do not understand the format at all - you have merely read the explanations and the policies. This gives you the what, but not the why. It shows a lack of appreciation for the vision of the site. Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 1:28
  • 10
    "There would be absolutely no harm done to the site if you didn’t remove that answer." On the contrary, failing to clean up duplicates is the greatest source of harm to the site. It means that people find inferior versions of the question (with inferior answers) with a search engine, and don't end up in the right place to see the best explanations. Many times, a question is phrased such that it sounds like a duplicate of one popular question, but the actual problem is completely different. That causes even more problems for searchers. I elaborate on this in my answer. Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 1:31
  • 4
    That post (I've inlined image of the whole question from SO into this one) is an extreme example of providing zero useful text as body of the question. I though partial copy-paste of assignment is true "low quality", but indeed this one tops such posts :) Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 1:47
  • 23
    This has been said over and over: please don't conflate "beginner" questions and "low-quality" questions. They're two completely different things. People often accuse SO of being hostile to beginners, but we're really just hostile to low-quality. There are plenty of fantastic beginner questions. There's nothing I like to see more than someone who's been programming for 3 weeks asking a clear, well-formatted and thoughtful question.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 5:16
  • 1
    "“People asking questions aren’t entitled to receive an answer” doesn’t sound welcoming especially when you are a beginner" then what should be "welcoming"? Mandating of users to answer every question? The users who are donating their time free of charge, yet have this requirement trusted upon them? Because that does not feel very welcoming to those contributors. How exactly do you expect askers (beginners or otherwise) to get a guaranteed answer yet not pressure the answerers into it?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 15:06
  • 3
    @ÖzgürGüzeldereli "they are prevented from doing so when the questions are instantly closed". Yep. The point of the closure is to require that OP edit the post to meet a certain quality threshold and prevent people from answering questions that are off-topic or not useful. And yes, answerers are aggressive because of rep greed. Some tags like Pandas are notorious for having high-rep users that instantly answer low-quality or dupe questions. Others just have the intent to help but don't realize or agree that they're causing more harm than good
    – ggorlen
    Commented Oct 17, 2022 at 2:40

3 Answers 3

21

We like beginner questions. We really want beginner questions on this site. There are more beginners than experts, so it's only natural that beginner questions are in more demand and they should be answered on Stack Overflow.

BUT it doesn't mean that we will accept just any question. For a question to have value, it needs to be asked in a clear and focused manner. It also needs to be on-topic. Otherwise, the question will receive downvotes and/or close votes.

The nature of beginner questions is that they often repeat. We don't need 10s, 100s or 1000s repetitions of the same question. Pick one that has the best answers and vote to close others as duplicates. Don't answer questions that have obvious duplicates. Before answering a question on the main site, do some research and check if similar answers cannot be found somewhere on Stack Overflow.

We don't need a new tag for beginner questions!

We don't need to change our attitude towards them either... Well, we need to downvote and close more than we do now, but that's not what you asked for.

We don't fail newbies by not answering their requests. This site doesn't exist to fulfil their wishes or offer personal tutoring. They fail the site by misusing it and posting poorly written questions. They only disappoint themselves by setting wrong expectations about Stack Overflow.

1
  • 1
    "They only disappoint themselves by setting wrong expectations about Stack Overflow." - what surprises me the most about that is that apparently to this day the reputation of the site does not precede it.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 17, 2022 at 13:27
14

Learning, growing, making personal / professional development might be "side effects" of "using" Stack Overflow, not something that explicitly being facilitated / supported. The site is helpful to learn but it's not a course, classroom, workshop, bootcamp, etc. It's not a tutoring, mentoring, co-learning space. SO isn't intend to replace those things.

I think that one of the hardest parts to understand about SO is that the core of this site are questions and answers about a specific activity, programming, moderated by users. Question, answer, moderation and other terms, while in a broad sense have no special meaning, the way that they are handled and the culture around them in SO are very different than other places. This is shocking for many new users, and for many no so new users too.

The site isn't intended to be "responsive" regarding the specific user needs and circumstances. It doesn't take care of the user background, previous online experience / literacy. It only cares about everybody being "nice" / "welcoming" ( not being rude / abusive ), but also the way this is handled and the culture around this is shocking for many. SO has a tags system to group questions by topics. This system isn't intended to categorize questions by difficulty level, target audience, lesson plans, writing style, author mood, etc. Putting collectives aside, with the exception of staff and diamond moderator tags, there are no tags for users.

The site "rewards" users based on their site contributions around posting and moderating activities. SO has reputation, tag scores and badges for this. There aren't rewards, certificates, diplomas, etc. to recognize user personal / professional development.

Once said that, we as SO users, should not worry about "beginners to programming". We might be "worry" about beginners to making good questions and answers and about beginners to moderating them.

Those who cares about "beginners to programming" might make use of SO features like regular advertising, community ads to recruit SO users for their open source projects and more recently collectives. Creating a new collective requires to privately contact the company.

Also it might be possible to use the SO chat but it requires a >20 rep, so it's not an option for first time askers that haven't received enough upvotes.

P.S. The question might be considered a "duplicate" of

Related

1
  • 4
    This really says everything that needs to be said, but I still felt the need to write a lengthy answer of my own - simply because people don't seem to appreciate ideas like this without being over the head with them. Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 1:33
11

Moreover, I feel like when people are met with downvotes, they feel like they are doing something bad even though it is not necessarily their fault. Yes, they could have read "how to ask questions" and studied already answered questions and etc, but most beginners neither have the terminology vocabulary nor the required experience and information to ask the types of questions that more experienced programmers can ask.

They can, indeed, read How To Ask, and take the tour, and in fact are expected to do so. How is it not their fault? Someone who goes on vacation in another country with different laws, similarly, should expect to be held to those laws for the duration of the trip.

Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum. It is not a help desk, code-writing service, debugging service, tutorial centre or any of the other things that people pithily point out in the comments.

Stack Overflow is a place to ask questions - one clear, specific, focused question per post. This is admittedly a difficult task. It is, in many cases, more difficult than answering it, even for people who know the answer. It may seem like a cruel joke that this responsibility gets pinned to people who don't know the answer, who want the answer, who don't know the terminology, who are in short not in the right position to ask. But this is the fault of the company, not the community. They're the ones advertising this as a place to get answers "to every question about programming" (fine print: except those which fall afoul of any of the standard closure reasons, only one of which is "not about programming or software development"). They're the ones concerned with page views. They're the ones with a financial stake in this (unless of course you count the value of unpaid volunteer time).

(It's also, of course, largely the fault of third parties promoting the site in inappropriate ways, or failing to understand how the site is supposed to work. It seems as though everyone expects a discussion forum because there are forms to submit user content, and a page that's structured with a question at the top and answers at the bottom, and comments underneath each. But there are a million discussion forums out there already. Why should we have to be one, too?)

We can't do anything about someone else's lack of information, except to provide information. By policy, the best way to provide information on previously asked and answered questions is to link those as duplicates. This is not a punishment. It is keeping the site clean. We can't do anything at all about someone else's lack of experience. We can edit to fix terminology, but only if we can figure out what was intended. Many beginners have so little understanding of terminology (and seemingly no appreciation of why terminology is important) that it becomes impossible to understand what they want. A huge fraction of questions are based in misconceptions that are difficult to address because there is no realistic way to understand the beginner's thought process.

Sympathy, courtesy and politeness are all admirable traits. But the fact remains that a bad question is a bad question. No amount of desire for "niceness" can override the necessity of good questions in order to "build a library of detailed, high-quality answers".

But, I cannot underscore this enough: absolutely none of that has anything at all to do with the difficulty of questions. Asking a really good question about how to do something any beginner should be able to do is still, itself, not necessarily beginner-level. The site is not here to accommodate the person trying to ask the question. The site is here to store well-asked questions and their answers.

Have a look at the top-voted Python questions of all time, for example. They certainly aren't perfect, but there is a pretty strong correlation with question quality. What I want to highlight, though, is that most of the top questions are straightforward, basic matters of general knowledge. A lot can be asked in a single sentence. Things like "What does if __name__ == '__main__': do?" should be covered in any proper tutorial.

But they're well-asked. They're asked in the way that those who know what they're doing would ask them, for teaching purposes. (In some cases, after extensive editing. There is still much to be done on this front.) They're asked with purpose and direction. There's an organized thought process behind them. They aren't about looking for help with debugging, which is supposed to happen ahead of time anyway. Instead, after finding the source of a bug, a good question will highlight the specific cause in a MCVE. Compare the first code block there and the corresponding output, to the amount of code most beginners will paste when asked to show code for the problem they're vaguely describing. Look at the output there, and notice how succinctly it explains the problem being described. That's how you end up with a question with over a thousand links. And, you know, there's still considerable room for improvement there.

I cannot think of any way to resolve this issue but to change the community's attitude toward such matters. Maybe a specific tag could be opened for beginners which would prevent their questions from being seen on the main page, which would certainly decrease the attention they would get in which case they won't get a meaningful answer anyways. Either way I feel like this is an issue that has to be addressed better than "just close the question" to support new programmers in their journey instead of killing their passion for programming, especially for questions that show a genuine request for help where the question is easily answerable.

Ideas like this have been proposed countless times before. "Just close the question" is the appropriate response (although I maintain that questions should start closed, and be required to meet standards before being opened), because "support[ing] new programmers in their journey" is not part of our mandate, except insofar as it "supports" them to have access to a top-quality library. The amount of "attention" (in the form of experienced users looking at the question and sighing) paid to poorly asked questions doesn't address the quality problem. Editing them does. Doing the expected research and debugging before asking (ideally, coming up with a question that doesn't relate to a debugging effort) does. Creating a MCVE does.

Being a "genuine request for help" is not relevant. Questions here are not about the person asking them, or about any individual's need to have the question answered. That's how we can say that we downvote questions/answers and not users. It's why there is no sense of urgency here. It's part of why we want questions about homework, not questions which are the homework. It's why answering your own question is not only allowed, but should be strongly encouraged in many cases. This is fundamental to how the site works. We are not rejecting "easily answerable" questions out of any sense of superiority. We are rejecting them because they do not contribute something new to the library.

The tour says that the site is "all about getting answers". That does not necessarily mean an answer to a question that you ask, regardless of the question quality. The point of maintaining these standards is so that you can get answers from Stack Overflow by using a search engine, without even needing to put together a complete question.

Bad questions make that harder, by appearing in search results when they shouldn't. If someone has misidentified the problem and thus put a misleading title on a question, that's bad for you, the Stack Overflow searcher; now you will find a Q&A that's unhelpful because it's unrelated to what you're trying to figure out. If someone's code has multiple issues, having just one of them in common with yours, that's bad for you, the Stack Overflow searcher; now you get distracted by that other stuff, if you can even find the question. If everyone's question is "help me debug this plz", that's bad for you, the Stack Overflow searcher; how could you ever find the right on? If someone tries to explain the problem but is incomprehensible, that's bad for you, the Stack Overflow searcher; it's harder for you to verify that the Q&A is applicable. If the question uses terminology wrongly, that's bad for you, the Stack Overflow searcher; even if you also don't know correct terminology, you'll just as likely have it wrong in a different way, and worse yet the question might accidentally teach you wrong terminology.

4
  • There are 23,102,776 questions on stackoverflow. To clean up the mess (with duplicates, bad questions, bad answers, questions with no answer, questions with overwhelming amount of answers, ...) would require much more than a fulltime lifetime job. In my eyes it would be more effective and helpful to focus own efforts on improving the stackoverflow search engine instead of trying to win the probably already lost fight against never ending "beginner attacks".
    – user7711283
    Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 22:18
  • Downvoting and closing without the very hard work of providing the actual right and in addition also helpful explanation about the reason is the way of discouraging punishment. Making bad questions/answers harder to find and good ones much easier would be sure a nicer way to cope with the problem of a flood of new (bad) questions and answers.
    – user7711283
    Commented Oct 16, 2022 at 22:19
  • 3
    External search for Stack Overflow is also bad, because of the excess of poorly asked questions coming from beginners. Commented Oct 17, 2022 at 0:44
  • I don't see any really good solution here and maybe there isn't any? Introducing some kind of authority deciding what is good and what bad can make it even worse (see Wikipedia, fact checkers on Facebook, eventually valuable but for not true reasons closed questions here on stackoverflow, ...). Maybe some kind of a list of standard answers to standard issues as variable scope, lists which change content, default parameter values you can link to while closing as duplicate would be helpful and worth to be created to help in providing appropriate links when marking as duplicate?
    – user7711283
    Commented Oct 17, 2022 at 12:51

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .