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In the past few days, I've noticed that just about all spam posts in Discussions have an upvote, some multiple (I guess I could link to a specific one but it will very quickly be deleted and then you can't actually see it, so...)

Shouldn't people doing this stop? Spam should be flagged, and only flagged (maybe on main sites you could make a case for also downvoting spam but you can't downvote a discussion). Spam certainly should not upvoted.

Also, could someone please investigate who is doing this and take necessary actions? I remember that during the strike, spam would often get 5 upvotes (probably from strikers). Is this what's happening here, users protesting discussions? Or it is someone insanely confused/misinformed? A Spam ring? Something else?

If this is the former, please note that this is a violation of the Inauthentic usage policy and is a suspendable offense. This clearly falls under:

we do not allow what we define as inauthentic usage of our systems, such as...

Patterns of voting that appear to be solely based on rewarding or punishing specific users in a targeted manner or that appear to be cast with disregard to the content being voted on

Using multiple accounts and/or profiles to circumvent or evade system, or moderator, imposed restrictions or limitations that one account/profile would have.

Artificially boosting the popularity/score of content and/or users.

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    If I had to guess, it's almost certainly the spammers or people associated with them upvoting the junk. But we can't see who upvoted what, and staff aren't likely to share that information. If you just want it to be investigated, flag it for moderator attention and have Discussion mods send it up the chain to CMs; the Meta community can't really do anything here.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:25
  • 25
    I personally don't see an issue. SE removed downvotes and want us to only use upvotes in Discussions to signify things worth looking at. Well, the system works. Been thinking to start doing the same, honestly.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:26
  • 13
    Alright, can also use the other mechanism SE has endorsed: replies. I'm really getting f-ing tired of the largely ineffective tools they've provided. Spammers can outpace flaggers with ease. Like, I've had times I'd go through and try to flag all the current spam, only for 3-5 new posts to show up by the time I'm done. And when I'm done with those, there might be even more. It's a miracle Discussions has not yet been overwhelmed by spam.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:31
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    Just a heads up in case anyone's actually doing this in protest of Discussions lacking moderation tools- this goes against the Inauthentic usage policy, "Patterns of voting that appear to be solely based on rewarding or punishing specific users in a targeted manner or that appear to be cast with disregard to the content being voted on." Commented Nov 14 at 18:32
  • 20
    @Starship it's a miracle because spammers at large haven't found Discussions yet. It's not us keeping them at bay, because we cannot. Few spamwaves have shown how completely overwhelming can it be. It's more security through obscurity, than really "brave users holding the line". We haven't yet had 1. spam waves that specifically target Discussions (the leaked videos one is getting there) 2. Multiple spam campaigns hitting Discussions. 3. Consistent spam posts 4. Spam in replies. So far, we've mostly had the most obvious and easy to catch spam there.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:38
  • 4
    I also saw this. Fortunately, upvotes in Discussions don't have any direct effects (i.e., no rep), but it's still important to not give any appearance of legitimacy to spam posts.
    – Laurel
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:39
  • 3
    @user4581301 links on the SE network have a nofollow, so spammers aren't getting SEO juice from it. That doesn't really stop them, though. Most the spam is autoimated anyway. Or done "by hand" by some poor person hired (and probably vastly underpaid) to re-post spam as much as possible wherever they can.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:48
  • 4
    I'm questioning that is against the rules, if I am honest. By that definition spam flags that automatically downvote would be against the rules as well. Of course, maybe the users would be appeased by a simple downvote feature... Honestly, however, I've of mind that every one just lets Discussions rot until Stack Overflow do something. The spam volume in there is awful at the moment. Lease the spam in situ, and maybe Stack Overflow will actually do something; that's the best solution on my opinion.
    – Thom A
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:55
  • 6
    If upvotes are teh only votes we have, and we're upvoting a discussion because it's spam, how is that a violation of the policy? "or that appear to be cast with disregard to the content being voted on" clearly in that case the vote would certainly be with regard to the content being voted on. It's not artificial, as it's one vote by a real user, on the content that was posted, generally that policy is for voting rings. If SE wants to go around suspending people for voting on discussions when they aren't even willing to give us the tools to moderate it... power to them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 14 at 19:19
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    I'm surprised there's this much confusion over the rules. The sentiment in "disregard to the content being voted on" is reiterated in Disruptive Use of Tooling, which explains that you must vote based on quality (and, in some cases, the consensus established by the community). There is no such thing as high quality spam, so spam cannot be upvoted. This applies doubly so since the intent of these votes is to "cause[] harm to the community or compromise[] the integrity of the content".
    – Laurel
    Commented Nov 14 at 19:30
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    Moreover, the moderation system in Discussion is very much the opposite of what the main site is. It's opaque, it's unverifiable, it cannot be trustworthy. This isn't aimed at Discussion moderators, this is aimed at SE - they made the system such that users cannot verify if a moderation action was correct or not.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 19:41
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    Oh, and apparently even mods (diamond ones) can't even reliably track what happened with posts in Discussions. So, it's opaque from the "outside" (regular users) but also from the "inside" (mods, who should have more-or-less master access to everything). No wonder, diamond mods aren't too keen on moderating there.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 19:49
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    Sorry, I cannot accept that upvoting in Discussions is "Artificially boosting the popularity/score of content and/or users." as it would mean that the binary vote in Discussion is some kind of meaningful signal.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 14 at 21:16
  • 2
    Good to see someone created a meta post about it. I saw it yesterday, within seconds of a spam post (or one of those weird posts moaning about a youtuber... I guess those are abuse?) appearing they already had an upvote. For a second there I thought that discussions started out with an upvote, but no it's the usual people fighting fire with fire because they just can't let things go. Get it in your head people: Stack Overflow is not your property. There is no reason to be this involved. Just let it go.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 15 at 9:17
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    @ThomA I didn't mean 'you' literally, that was figurative. Replace it with: "one should not take their frustration out on volunteer moderators". Yes, SO is in charge of this mess, but those protest votes have none or comparably minimal effect on SO, but do make moderation harder. I don't disagree that Discussions is dead, again, that's why I don't waste my time on it. But some of our comrades are still trying to clean up at least some of that mess. It's not fair to them to protest this way. Commented Nov 15 at 15:48

3 Answers 3

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I respectfully disagree with Dharman here, and I don't think upvoting spam is acceptable.

This came up with an In need of moderator intervention flag I raised following this conversation in Charcoal HQ. My perspective is that it violates the Inauthentic usage policy, specifically:

Patterns of voting [...] that appear to be cast with disregard to the content being voted on.

Here's the flags I raised about this and the responses. I redacted identifying information and added https:// to a few links where it wasn't originally present (due to flag length limits) for readability, but otherwise these are the flags & responses I raised/got. I don't know which mods handled them.

For context, the first two of these flags were raised on an arbitrary question unrelated to the user casting and publicly explaining (via now-deleted Discussions replies) their votes. The latter two flags were raised an answer selected from that user's profile page.

(Flagging a random post) The user [REDACTED] is casting problematic Discussions votes, possibly violating the Inauthentic usage policy ("cast with disregard to the content being voted on"). See also https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/66611041 and above messages - can you get those votes reverted and tell the user to stop? See their recent replies to Discussions stating it. [REDACTED]

Helpful - I have upvoted it too. I see nothing wrong with upvoting it since these votes don't matter. And the vote is definitely based on the content, but I have only one option to express my discontent.

Following https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/28869 - Can a different diamond moderator who didn't handle the previous flag about this please re-evaluate my previous flag on this post about someone casting upvotes in Discussions? I don't agree with a vote not mattering making it permissible, especially considering the user I flagged about had upvoted a blatantly spam Discussions post too.

Helpful - can you please re-raise this flag on a post of the user whose behavior you find inappropriate instead of on a random unrelated post?

(Flagging the user's post per mod request in flag reply) - This user's Discussion replies & votes violate Inauthentic Usage ("cast with disregard to the content being voted on") see https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/66611041 and above chats. See: [REDACTED] A mod is doing it too per flag reply on [REDACTED] Considering the mod also voted, I'd appreciate a re-eval per https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/28869

Self-removed

(Flagging the user's post per mod request in flag reply) - This user's Discussion replies (one is [REDACTED]) & votes violate "disregard" section in Inauthentic Usage; see https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/66611041 and above chats. See: [REDACTED] A mod may be doing it too per flag reply on [REDACTED] . I'd appreciate a re-eval per https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/28869

Helpful


After considering Starship's comment, I emailed SE due the implication of a Moderator Agreement § i. violation. However, I'm not stating that I believe a deliberate violation has occurred, but instead that enough has happened and there's enough disagreement that contacting SE seemed worthwhile. I'm also neither providing the contents of that communication here nor encouraging discussing it due to the sensitivity of the issue.

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    I find it very very worrying that one of our mods (or the discussion mods) may violating policy. Please use the Contact Us button and report that SE. Commented Nov 14 at 23:08
  • 2
    @Starship I sent SE an email. However, your comment can be interpreted as implying a Moderator Agreement (section i.) violation. While I'm not saying a diamond mod is intentionally breaking it, IMO that's likely to be a sensitive enough issue that it may be handled privately (not via MSO comments).
    – cocomac
    Commented Nov 15 at 0:01
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    That's absolutely sensitive enough that we shouldn't put in MSO comments (hence why I said email SE, not let's keep discussing it here). Also the mod agreement does say that mods have to abide my policy... Commented Nov 15 at 0:07
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    @Starship There's nothing in the rules about upvoting spam. Saying that it's breaking the site rules is a big accusation.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 0:53
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    @Dharman "cast with disregard to the content being voted on". That's definitely the case; those votes are cast as a protest. I am sympathetic to the cause, but this needs to stop. I don't understand why you'd advocate for this (or at least not object). I have already stopped spending my time on that cesspool, and I agree with Makyen's statement in Charcoal, but won't stand for this either. Commented Nov 15 at 2:11
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    @M-- We are talking here about deliberate vote after reading the content being voted on. Just because you disagree with the voter's decision doesn't mean that they voted with disregard.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 4:00
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    @Dharman I don't agree with that characterization. They are not upvoting the content, they are upvoting to protest. That's their intent which is against the rules. it's disheartening to see you advocating for such behavior just because it's something that you're not dealing with. It's making moderation of that crappy place harder. Isn't that reason enough to kindly ask users to stopndoing that, whether it's breaking the rules or not? Commented Nov 15 at 4:05
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    @M-- First of all, I am not advocating for this behaviour. I don't want people to use their votes in protest. But the matter we are discussing here is a very narrow case. The question is whether it's against the rules to upvote spam posts in discussions. Per my answer: no. The votes are not random votes meant to cause havoc all over the site. They are deliberate votes based on the post's content.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 4:13
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    @Dharman As Laurel mentioned, what about Targeted voting -> Mass downvoting from the Disruptive use of tooling policy? The example given of "downvoting several posts in a tag because you don’t like the tag" doesn't seem that far from upvoting posts in a feature because the voter dislikes it.
    – cocomac
    Commented Nov 15 at 4:19
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    @M-- I have added more information to my answer. I hope this clears the confusion.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 4:33
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    @Dharman unfortunately no. In your edit, "I don't think that someone is protesting the existence of discussions either. Of course, we don't have all the information to say this with certainity, but I am making such assumption. From the scarce information I was able to see it seems to me that someone is upvoting spam and only spam in discussions to draw more attention to these posts.", you only explained the intentions. Yet you haven't said anything remotely suggesting that you want this to stop. I won't bug you about it anymore. I am sure I have been annoying enough. Cheers. Commented Nov 15 at 4:40
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    I don't understand how there's any question wether these votes are based on the content of the posts, if we remove all content from such a post is it still spam? Clearly not. So being voted on based on the fact that it is spam can only be considered as voting based on the posts content.
    – cafce25
    Commented Nov 15 at 9:19
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    Exactly. Just because something is wrong (upvoting spam is—at best—petty) doesn't make it against the rules or the moderator agreement. I could choose to downvote all good posts and upvote only bad ones and I wouldn't be breaking any rule.
    – terdon
    Commented Nov 15 at 10:45
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    @terdon You would be breaking rules Commented Nov 15 at 18:40
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    @Starship I'd be shocked if that happened. This isn't a mod going out and trying to make trouble. It's confusion about rules and what should happen leading to messy results, which means staff clarifying policy is probably a perfectly fine solution. Yes, because it involved a mod, CoC policy (mentioned in the mod agreement), and Meta, I wanted to reach out to get more clarity on this, but people interpreting policy differently doesn't mean anyone should lose a diamond.
    – cocomac
    Commented Nov 15 at 19:01
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  • Spam should not exist on Stack Overflow
  • If someone posts spam nonetheless, it must be removed (unfortunately this is happening on a large scale in discussions)
  • Normal users should flag spam so it can be deleted by the person responsible (CMs)
  • The score on spam posts in Discussions doesn't matter (on main it matters so that it quickly reaches -3 and is hidden from the homepage)
  • Votes on discussions are meaningless in general as they don't count towards reputation or system blocks, and only exist in a binary form (something has a vote or not)

So it doesn't matter whether spam in discussions is upvoted or not. If it's spam it will be removed anyway with the same outcome.

I don't think that someone is protesting the existence of discussions either. Of course, we don't have all the information to say this with certainty, but I am making this assumption. From the scarce information I was able to see it seems to me that someone is upvoting spam and only spam in discussions to draw more attention to these posts.

As to whether it's against the rules: it's not. The votes are not used to gain privileges, they're done from a single account (presumably) and are cast based on the content quality (yes" bad quality but since there's only one voting option it's the only way to cast a vote).

I'd like to refute that this particular rule was broken in this case:

... that appear to be cast with disregard to the content being voted on

This rule applies to situations when a user casts votes indiscriminately on randomly selected posts, or when they vote based on some criteria other than the post's contents (e.g., user's name or profile picture). The scenario being discussed in this question doesn't apply to this rule because based on what you said the user is voting based on the post's contents and carefully choosing what they vote on. Just because you believe spam posts should not be upvoted doesn't mean it's against the rules.

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    Also don't forget another bullet point: SO mods are not obligated to moderate Discussions.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 14 at 20:16
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    All that said, I still prefer if they were not upvoted. For me, it could mean an extra second spent on the post before I decide to delete/nuke it. And I really don't want to spend any more time on Discussions that I need to. Commented Nov 14 at 20:23
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    The problem with upvoting a post is that upvoted posts look they are legitimate. They also mean the post is sorted higher when sorting by highest score. It is doing something which couldn't be done by 1 account because you can't upvote your own post. So you need an account to post it and an account to upvote it. Also sometimes theres been multiple upvotes. Also, casting upvotes because a post is bad is a violation of the rules (pointed out in the comments). But even if it wasn't, if I start downvoting every good post I can find and upvoting every bad one, would you not supsend me/mod message? Commented Nov 14 at 22:50
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    @Starship If you'd do that in discussions then no. If you do that on main site then maybe if that would ever become a huge problem and we knew about it somehow (CMs told us or something). But generally we don't interfere with how people vote. In 99.999% of cases we do not judge how you use your votes.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 0:51
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    @TylerH they're not obligated to moderate the main site either (they choose to do that). But I get your point, yet I am not happy with the general vibe here. Just because we are dissatisfied with something, we shouldn't engage in destructive actions. Even during the last strike we didn't condone such behaviors. Makyen's take in Charcoal is something I can agree with. I personally limited the time I spent on moderating Discussions significantly due to the same concerns but I didn't start undeleting problematic posts. Commented Nov 15 at 3:50
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    @Starship Actual voting fraud is a different matter. What I was describing is a normal voting process where a user reads a post and then decides to vote based on what they read. As long as they are not committing an actual voting fraud, then we do not interfere with such votes.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 4:05
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    It's not like there are degrees of "doesn't matter". Upvotes on spam in Discussions don't matter. It's a little weirdly obsessive to be torturing clauses in the rules to try and make them claim that it matters. If it satisfies someone to upvote spam in Discussions then it's not a problem. The upvote button on spam will count the upvotes but is otherwise inert. Commented Nov 15 at 15:55
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    @M-- right, that's something different. To be a moderator, they are obligated to continue moderating the main site. They are not obligated to moderate discussions at all. And no, I'm not suggesting anything beyond what I've stated.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 15 at 16:38
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    @Starship No, that would be targeted voting.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Nov 15 at 19:32
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    @Starship which single user is that targeting?
    – cafce25
    Commented Nov 15 at 19:39
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    @Starship your analogy is flawed. If you want to make a comparable example, you may say, "can I go over the posts on the main site and downvote everything with a link?". Commented Nov 15 at 19:42
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    @Starship Targeting 10 different specific users is still targeting specific users... Also "all" sounds a lot like disregarding the contents which is also not allowed.
    – cafce25
    Commented Nov 15 at 19:49
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    @Starship Voting on posts that contain spam isn't though. It's voting irrespective of the user, based on the contents. In other words "if post contains A" is a valid criterium, "if post was posted by X" isn't.
    – cafce25
    Commented Nov 15 at 19:54
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    @Starship ok, elsewhere your example is fine, here is flawed. Nobody is targeting a single user or a group of users in case of Discussions. We ask diamond mods to destroy spam accounts within a day or 2 and at most I have seen 4 post by the same account before their accounts are deleted. This whole argument that people are upvoting spam based on its content is ridiculous. This is not a case of one man's garbage is another's treasure. It's not like one reads the spam post and think "oh, I like this adult website". They're not doing it based on content. It's a protest, and in my eyes disruptive Commented Nov 16 at 5:54
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    Votes are anonymous for a reason. There maybe plenty of reasons why a vote is given. Voters should not be made to explain why a vote is given and any rationale or pattern observed is purely speculation. Unless the allegation is voter fraud, I completely and fully agree that such voting is not against the rules. Any consensus created otherwise would only help to tear the voting veil ourselves, which surely will come to bite us back.
    – TheMaster
    Commented Dec 1 at 5:56
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While I agree with (almost) everything Dharman said, I prefer if spam and low quality posts in Discussions were not upvoted.

Although those upvotes would not change the ultimate outcome, spam will get nuked and (most of) low quality posts will get deleted, and also do not affect the reputation, it could make it harder for Discussion's moderators to spot the low quality discussions or in case of 'slicker' spam, we'd see them linger around a bit longer.

The part of Dharman's answer that I don't agree with is "As to whether it's against the rules: it's not". I accept that this is certainly a grey area, and something that has not been discussed before. But considering that we do not allow protesting company's poor choices by vandalism or abusing privileges, etc. I don't think we should condone this either.

Let's think of it this way; the protest vote will not be a huge deal breaker for what company has in mind. They can (relatively) simply remove all the votes by particular users on Discussions. Or simply ignore them and move forward with whatever they decide (I have not seen any member of the staff monitoring the Discussions lately anyway). In the meantime, those 'votes' are making it harder for the volunteer moderators to spot the unwanted posts. I don't believe that's the intention behind them.

As Makyen pointed out in Charcoal, this is not a valid form of protest.

That said, I mentioned this on another thread about Discussions moderation that I am sympathetic to the cause and understand the frustration. Again, Makyen put it beautifully:

OTOH, my opinion on Discussions is: "Let it burn". SE has refused to do the minimal amount of work that would allow us (all volunteers, not just Charcoal), to efficiently handle at least spam in discussions. Originally, they said that the CMs would be handling any moderation issues in Discussion. When they realized that it was actually the large amount of work which we told them in advance that it would be, they created "Discussion moderators" and made moderation of Discussions a bit harder by disabling downvotes. Effectively, instead of doing the relatively small amount of work of making Discussions available via the SE API, they just pushed the dramatically larger than necessary work of moderating Discussions onto volunteers, effectively valuing volunteer time at almost nothing and assuming that there's an infinite amount of it available. SE will just keep on doing nothing until there's a major problem, which is much less likely to happen if volunteers keep stepping up to handle the crap that SE created. Without a major problem, SE won't even do the minimal amount of work necessary to make moderating Discussions substantially easier, not even increasing the reputation requirement to something over 1, which would be trivial to change. So, my point of view is to just do nothing and let Discussions be the cesspool that SE created. Let SE clean up the mess that they actively created.

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    There is a simple solution too that is far less vandalistic. In the profile settings there is an option "hide left menu" which will collapse the left menu with all the "features" that are pointless to most people. And then it is as if the discussions feature does not exist at all.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 15 at 12:29

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