12

A question I reviewed yesterday in Staging Ground that is inherently off-topic was close-voted by me and then by a moderator, which resulted in it being closed.

Today, I see a notification that it was submitted for re-evaluation after an edit, and a single, non-moderator user reopened it and approved it.

Concerns about that reviewer's decision to reopen and publish a still-off-topic question aside, this is clearly a bug. If a question becomes closed during Staging Ground it should probably be done, no longer reviewable.

At the very least, it should no longer be unilaterally reopenable and publishable if it was closed during review, since multiple users can't unilaterally reopen closed questions otherwise, dupehammer notwithstanding.

22
  • 4
    "If a question becomes closed during Staging Ground it should probably be done, no longer reviewable." Closing is often described as being a means to put a question on hold until it is fixed. So being reopenable kind of makes sense, even though the details here are fishy. Commented Jun 5 at 13:56
  • 8
    @MisterMiyagi That's antiquated language--we no longer use "on hold" on Stack Overflow because it was confusing--all questions are just "closed" now. A closed question can be reopened, but in this case a question being closed in the Staging Ground means the question is most likely inherently, unsavably off-topic, because otherwise the SG affords essentially unlimited opportunities for new rounds of reviews to get a question published.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 5 at 14:15
  • 11
    Put another way, since a question can be published from SG by any single user, the fact that a question was not published, and not even sent back for changes, but closed (by multiple users), should carry some significant weight. A single user should not be able to reopen a question that multiple users closed (again, dupehammer/mod status notwithstanding).
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 5 at 14:17
  • 5
    I get the motivation about unilateral reopening being unbalanced versus closure. I don’t get why complete removal of reopening is tacked onto this. Archaic wording or not, the option of reopening is an integral part of the closure process - if that is different for SG, so be it, but a motivation for this in the meta-question itself seems prudent. Commented Jun 5 at 14:50
  • This is pretty much intended as reopening is considered a normal thing to do after the OP editing the post (posts shouldn't be stuck in the closed state if the author fixes them - closing in the staging ground is more of a temporal thing (except maybe that you can't close the same post twice)). However, I do agree that users unilaterally reopening a post closed a moderator is a bit of a weird choice.
    – dan1st
    Commented Jun 5 at 15:35
  • @MisterMiyagi because the SG is intended to catch bad questions before they get put on the site (although the way they should up now in the questions list seems to undercut that original vision quite a bit). That means improving questions in need of improvement but it also means closing questions which are inherently off-topic. It's important to understand here when I say "inherently off-topic" I mean "in no way can this question be edited to be on-topic on Stack Overflow". Why should such Qs be allowed to be reopened in the Staging Ground, which is not for that purpose, let alone at all?
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 5 at 16:10
  • @dan1st That's making an erroneous conflation of "edit = fix". An edit does not 'reopen' or publish a question in the Staging Ground. After editing, an asker may request review, and a reviewer can then determine what's needed. But at no point should a single reviewer be able to reopen a question closed by multiple users. And, as I argue, a question closed in SG should arguably not be reopenable at all. The list of reasons you can close a question for in SG is limited much more than on main because reasons like "needs detail" or "needs MRE" are funneled into further review, instead.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 5 at 16:12
  • Closing in the SG only requires 2 reviewers. I think one reviewer being able to revert that is fine, especially since in many cases, close reasons are resolved in the SG in my experience (or the author just doesn't edit it). And I think closing in the SG cannot be compared to closing on the main site.
    – dan1st
    Commented Jun 5 at 16:44
  • 2
    @TylerH I'm not questioning that inherently off-topic questions don't need reopening. I'm questioning that closed questions are inherently off-topic. Commented Jun 5 at 17:05
  • 2
    Well, the Staging Ground cannot distinguish between inherently off-topic and off-topic now but maybe not in the future.
    – dan1st
    Commented Jun 5 at 18:42
  • 2
    I was saying there is no good way (neither for the system nor for reviewers - see previous comments why this is also the case for reviewers) to distinguish between a question that is inherently off-topic (and will always stay that way) and a question that is currently off-topic but may be salvageable (maybe not off-topic in the future).
    – dan1st
    Commented Jun 5 at 21:26
  • 1
    I think I had cases where I thought a question would be completely off-topic but the author somehow improved it. But I agree that there are some questions (one of which I reviewed today) which I don't think have much of a chance to ever meet the guidelines on SO.
    – dan1st
    Commented Jun 5 at 21:37
  • 1
    @TylerH "if users are close voting in such an incorrect way, that should be flagged so moderators can overturn it [cut for brevity] not about programming or whatever." Honestly, this is completely news to me and again goes counter to other established advice (namely don’t modflag if a regular user can fix it). Now, let’s please not make another round of comments but instead please edit this meta-question to include the relevant, current facts. Commented Jun 6 at 5:10
  • 1
    A pattern of incorrect close voting from a user should certainly be flagged for mods to send a message (as that isn't something regular users can do). A single incorrect vote...ehhhhhh, it depends. If it's clearly, unambiguously wrong and that doesn't require subject-matter expertise to tell...yeah, sure, go for it; we can see close vote history and check if there's a pattern. But if you just want the vote reversed, yeah, that's a regular-user thing.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Jun 6 at 18:20
  • 2
    Since the Staging Ground is now available for some time: During that period, I have seen quite a lot of questionable off-topic votes so being able to unilaterally revert that is probably not that bad of an idea.
    – dan1st
    Commented Jun 24 at 13:35

1 Answer 1

1

I had this happen today.

First, some background.

Being able to reopen closed questions is an important aspect of the main site functionality - because the point is to prevent answers until the question is fixed, if possible. However, broadly speaking, the main site doesn't distinguish questions that were viewed as potentially fixable, from ones that were viewed as unfixable.

Also, broadly speaking, the Staging Ground does make this distinction very well, albeit with awkward labels. The "vote as" actions for a post gathers up, essentially, all the reasons why an unfixable question might be closed on the main site:

  • "Off topic" -> Not about programming or software development (i.e., actually off topic)

  • "Off topic" -> Seeking a recommendation (not pedantically "off topic", in the sense that the topic is correct; but still outside the intended scope of the site)

  • "Off topic" -> Opinion based (id.)

  • "Off topic" -> Caused by a typo or not reproducible (i.e. there isn't a question to answer that could actually help someone else, because the cause is idiosyncratic to the OP's thought process or actions and thus not searchable)

  • Duplicate (as long as the question can still be considered a duplicate, it wouldn't be "fixed"

In all of these cases, any change that could make the question qualify for reopening, would fundamentally change the question.

Another key distinction is that, in an important and meaningful sense, Staging Ground questions already are "closed" until they're posted on the main site. That is, there's no answer submission form, so the primary goal of question closure is already being achieved.

With all of that in mind, there are fundamentally two reasons why a main space question should be reopened:

  1. The closure was in error.

  2. The problem that motivated the closure a) was fixable and b) got fixed.

In the Staging Ground, a question that gets marked as "off topic" or "duplicate" is supposed to be not fixable, by definition. Therefore, these questions should only be moved to a different status because the closure was in error.

Consequently:

  1. It should be at least as hard (in terms of number of votes) to undo the marking. Except for dupe-hammerings, this required two votes, so the undo should also require two votes.

  2. If the OP asks for a re-evaluation, this should be treated more like a petition that the marking was in error rather than a claim that the question has been fixed.

  3. If such a change is undone, the question still needs to be evaluated for other issues. Ideally it shouldn't be possible to approve the question immediately, except by a third person's assent.

4
  • 1
    "In the Staging Ground, a question that gets marked as "off topic" or "duplicate" is supposed to be not fixable" - I only partially agree with that. There are a lot of cases where a question seems to be fundamentally off-topic/opinion-based, a duplicate or similar but the author rewrites it in a way that the issue is resolved. Also, if there are disputes about whether a question is on-topic or not, these are probably best handled on the main site (or on MSO) anyways.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 11 at 16:53
  • @dan1st if the rewrite doesn't actually change the question, then that falls into the sort of error case I have in mind. Commented Oct 11 at 16:54
  • That's for the reviewer to decide. But off-topic/duplicate isn't supposed to be that much of a terminal state in the Staging Ground. I would consider a question being moved from off-topic to Major Changes/Approved being normal. Also, regarding the "The closure was in error." reason, that's one thing that occurs way too often IMO.
    – dan1st
    Commented Oct 11 at 16:56
  • 2
    IMO just changing the reopening criteria won't solve this. For example here's a question I'd voted as duplicate today, there was some discussion with the OP but I eventually found the suitable duplicate target, and OP seemed to agree. Then instead of casting another duplicate vote a reviewer came along and just approved the question... Commented Oct 11 at 17:15

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .