37

Since the launch of collectives, there have been discussions (mostly negative) about the new look of Recognized Member (RM)'s flair when they post an answer. Some of the related discussions can be found here and here.

As of now, whenever an RM posts an answer in their respective collective, a "badge" appears underneath their flair following by some text saying that they are recognized by that collective.

Most of the SMEs have not been given the opportunity to join as an RM yet and some even opted out. Nonetheless, they may know as much or even more than RMs about the subject, so "undermining" their answers by promoting RMs' answers does not seem just.

Understandably, this new look in the provider collectives is something that the provider (i.e. client) may desire. When it comes to public collectives, I feel it's fair to expect additional consideration of these discussions. To be clear, I am not suggesting that the community's feedback should be or would be neglected for those collectives.

I also brought up this issue in the Launchpad Team to ask the recognized members about the new look of their flair. The feedback there was overwhelmingly negative towards the new look as well and the majority wanted to revert these changes. In one example, a former RM stated that they opted out of being an RM due to features like the new flair.

I would like to know what do you think about the new look of the RM's flair?

  • Do you think the flair for RMs should be any different?
  • If yes, are there any other designs that you'd prefer?
  • Besides "artificially" assigning more weight to RMs' answers, are there any other issues with the current design?

The UX/research team also provided some insights about the issue (posted by CMs on the Launchpad Team):

We're doing active research on this – definition and understanding of the Recognized Member role, and how recommended answers are denoted – with collectives users and provider collectives clients. We're speaking with a variety of users and would also like to learn from the community here about how these flairs impact your experience in these tags (be that positively, negatively or otherwise) and how you perceive contributions that do/don’t have them. We're particularly eager to hear from users who are encountering them in their typical SO usage when working on questions associated with a collective. It would be ideal to know which collective(s) a user is encountering, as part of any feedback. This will be a key part of our holistic assessment and will help determine the next steps.


Userscript to hide the "Recognized" text:

I have also created a userscript (with the help of Makyen) which hides the "Recognized" text from the flair for now: https://stackapps.com/questions/9710/remove-recognized-members-text-from-the-rms-flairs-in-the-collectives

14
  • 12
    It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Collectives is just an XY Problem. If the intended audience thinks it's unnecessary, confusing, and now, we hear, also ugly, maybe it's time to call the whole thing off?
    – tripleee
    Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 5:22
  • 7
    @tripleee I personally think there are some curation potentials with the collectives. I (& most of other RMs) just don't need my answers to be marked as "better" by default. Pinned articles and bulletins for instance can be helpful to get new users familiar with tag specific requirements. Or a tag-focused moderation group can work on "projects" to improve content quality. Here, my internet is to ask for changing a feature within the collectives, not to glare at them with disdain. P.S.the new look is not particularly ugly, it's not really about the "looks", it's about the message that it sends. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 7:44
  • 1
    @M-- Thank you for your tireless efforts. In my humble opinion, the introduction of RMs is an asset to the community. For now it can remain in this form. I believe that it is still too early for an evaluation. I believe a period of 6 months to 1 year would be adequate. The same applies to questions 2 and 3 from my side. I can't report anything conspicuous yet, because the time of testing is still too short for me.
    – TarJae
    Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 18:57
  • 1
    @TarJae Fair argument. While I witnessed some distaste, if not aversion, from more established users towards this "badge", I do not have any stats on how it actually performs amongst the wider community. However, my questions (especially no. 1) are more on the side of asking why than how. Why RM flairs should be different? If we don't answer that, then what would be our measure to evaluate whether this design is performing as expected or not in 6 months of time or more? Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 19:15
  • @M-- You are right. But once again I think we are at the stage of feelings, we do not have any data (as you already mentioned) or even structured opinions (e.g. survey etc.) to the best of my knowledge. And as always things may be diluted before we can see them grow. But I totally agree that we need a discussion, collect opinions and data to make things better!
    – TarJae
    Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 19:25
  • 1
    @TarJae To clarify, when I ask "why", I want to know its purpose. So let's say in a year, when I'm asked whether this flair satisfied its purpose (e.g. getting newcomers to accept an answer) or not, it'd mean something. But if I don't know why the flair is different, how can I participate in a survey later on? For instance, Not Written in English has been added to CV-reasons recently; read the bullet points about what that feature introduces, that's what I am after. Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 19:34
  • 1
    I see and as I mentioned I fully agree!
    – TarJae
    Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 19:40
  • 4
    hey, just wanted to confirm we (several members of the Collectives teams within Stack) are watching this post and the conversations. As was mentioned, we are actively looking at alternative ways to display this flair, as well as alternative options for how RM answers are sorted/filtered within the collective. Thus, your feedback is greatly appreciated. We're not quite far enough along to post ideas on Meta or give timelines yet.
    – John Wright StaffMod
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 16:25
  • 5
    @JohnM.Wright thank you for your comment. As you're probably aware, there is this suggestion to make the RM text optional when posting, which I really liked. As of this morning I "downgraded" myself to a member since I believe the flair is actually causing harm and I was hesitant to post answers due to that. I appreciate your consideration and hope we can find a resolution for this sooner rather than later. I see a lot of potential in the Collectives once we are over these couple of bumps. Cheers. Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 16:33
  • 2
    "I think we are at the stage of feelings, we do not have any data ... or even structured opinions (e.g. survey etc.)". Heard! I'll work with our research team, CMs, etc, to get something put together we can share publicly on this.
    – John Wright StaffMod
    Commented Apr 28, 2023 at 17:55
  • 4
    Just a heads-up that while this is still on our roadmap to review, my team was heavily impacted by the layoffs last week, so the timing of when we'll review it has increased significantly. I don't currently have an ETA.
    – John Wright StaffMod
    Commented May 18, 2023 at 20:29
  • 2
    Hey @M--ßţřịƙïñĝ, I’m currently on sabbatical (been out since early June), so am unaware of the status of this. I’ll return in a few weeks, but it will take me a bit to get up to speed after such a long break. While I’m out, the team is down to two (and some weeks just one) dev, so it’s unlikely any progress has been made on this issue.
    – John Wright StaffMod
    Commented Jul 27, 2023 at 3:21
  • 1
    I just wanted to point out that I posted about this feature-request on MSE, hoping that the design team may be able to lend a hand: meta.stackexchange.com/a/392143/356669 Commented Aug 10, 2023 at 4:35
  • 2
    @M-- this (and other approaches) are actively being discussed, but for now, Recognized Members’ answers on questions will still receive additional markup noting their role.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 1:49

3 Answers 3

19

I'd prefer someone who actually encountered this issue first hand to step forward and provide feedback, but given it's been two days of silence I'll do so:

The complaint I've seen that puts me against this existing in any form is when someone who decided not to participate in the collective is confronted with an OP that decides "This answer is great but I'll wait for an answer from a recognized member instead." This is entirely a messaging problem. To users unacquainted with what collectives actually are, these users appear to be somehow... "Verified" in a sense that makes their responses more official. While that may be a valid thing to have for, say, recognizing a response from an AWS employee vs other users, I don't see this as being a useful distinction outside of that.

I don't know why users generally decide to be recognized members of a collective, I'm not going to assume, but the messaging surrounding it isn't presenting a picture of joining because you want to further contribute to the curation of the tag, rather, it's presented as these are the users who know what they're talking about and sets them up as appearing above everyone else. If the true reason we're assigning RMs is to produce a group of highly-active curators who want to work together to better handle a set of tags, the messaging is missing it entirely and I'm not sure why this is tied to collectives given the actual work happens in a private team.

4
  • 2
    +1 I totally agree with the first paragraph. However, speaking for myself, I have been proposing curation projects from the day 1 that I joined the R collective and was an avid supporter of curation criteria for new RMs. I have been posting to the public chatroom as well (which was linked in the pinned bulletin), but I did not see much contribution (not every room is as alive as SOCVR). Any project that will be put forward, before implementation will get posted to MSO. I want to negotiate to bring them to public chatroom before that as well (understand your transparency concerns). Cont'd. Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 19:23
  • 3
    appearing above everyone else... Valid concern and as I pointed out in my post, that's also something that bothers me. I am still debating whether I should stay an RM or just leave. I have been posting fewer answers since then due to that concern as well. But I won't go as far as questioning everyone's motives, just to roam on the safe side. Just to put it out there (not that it makes me better than anyone), I am considering stepping down as an RM solely because of this flair thingy. Commented Apr 25, 2023 at 19:26
  • I am not clear on what the issue is. I found the whole "collective" invention to be silly. I was offered membership in the R Collective, but could not see any particular reason to sign up. I guess I'm not a "joiner". I consider myself a UseR.
    – IRTFM
    Commented Jul 13, 2023 at 0:51
  • @IRTFM since the launch of collectives number of projects have been discussed and we made progress until the strike hit. To name a few, tag warnings for R and tag clean ups were discussed. We also added R specific comments to ARC, github.com/SO-Close-Vote-Reviewers/auto-comments. These are all can happen without a Collective, I guess, but they had not in the past 14+ years. So, criticism is certainly warranted but JoineRs are getting some stuff done too :) Commented Aug 10, 2023 at 5:35
12

Update:

Back in June 2023, this (making the RM specific flair optional) was supposed to get implemented in near future, if nothing went south (spoiler: a lot of things did go south and we are still waiting for this to happen). I stepped back into RM role to explore some of the new features only available to the recognized members, but I am still following up on this feature, e.g. here.


This post is to summarize the issues with the current design of RMs' flair that I have encountered, thought of, or heard through discussions here or elsewhere so far.

I also want to point out that I have decided to "step down" from the RM role due to these issues (effective as of this morning). I will still participate in the curation/moderation projects, but as a member.

The list of issues is as follows:

  1. Posting an answer with the RM flair can discourage other users to post an answer as they may feel the value of their contribution will be undermined. It was not rare for me to ask other SMEs for their opinion/answer on a thread that I have already posted an answer to. Since the launch of collective I've been told more than once that "You're the recognized member, why are you asking for our opinion?". This also made me hesitant to post answers, so the discouragement goes both ways.

  2. This flair can send the wrong message to newcomers that the RM's answer is the best answer compared to other answers. I can think of numerous threads where I posted an answer just to show another possible variation/approach; however, I believed the other answers were more efficient or straightforward, etc. So far, there were couple of examples where my answers were accepted by the OP while another user (even with more reputation) has provided a better solution to their problem. In this situation, even if I mark one of the other answers as recommended, the flair will undermine the value of other answers if they are better.

  3. Automatically marking an answer as recommended and showing the flair can even be confusing where 2 or more RMs are posting on the same thread. Given the example where two RMs post answers while one of them is SME in that specific subject or even the author/caretaker of a library, both answers will be "implicitly" marked as recommended with the same weight (this has not happened to me since the launch, but has happened before numerous times, only we haven't had the RM flair back then).

  4. The exact purpose of the RM flair is not yet clear. I have seen speculations, criticism, and questions; however, I did not see any explicit statements while reviewing the MSO threads about collectives and the definitions under Help beside this bullet point that merely mentions this feature:

    • Have the "Recognized by" label appear below their user card when making contributions that are related to the collective's technology or area of practice

    This does not explain the purpose of the flair and I believe some of the confusion and cynicism has its roots in this caveat. That said, I want to quote John's comment and appreciate that something will be shared with us, hopefully in the near future (some anecdotes have been shared, but I'd rather wait for the collective team to post something).

    "I think we are at the stage of feelings, we do not have any data ... or even structured opinions (e.g. survey etc.)". Heard! I'll work with our research team, CMs, etc, to get something put together we can share publicly on this.


  • Are there any other issues with the current design?

    See the list above;

  • Do you think the flair for RMs should be any different?

    I believe the post/statement that Devs, research team, CMs, and the rest of the Collective team will work on (see John's comment(s) above) would answer some of our questions about the reasons behind this "feature". Then we can make more informed suggestions about it.

  • Are there any other designs that you'd prefer?

    I want to share an idea for an alternative design, which was actually brought up by one of the CMs. I can get behind this alternative design with much less concerns (wording is altered to fit the context of this post):

    [Giving the option to choose whether the flair will be shown or not (per answer) when posting as an RM.]

    N. B. Please note that Stack Overflow has not committed to this feature-request and it should be treated same as any other requests. I have only mentioned the fact that it was a CM's idea to assign the credit appropriately.

0
10

Now that it's here, I'll quote what I posted on the launchpad team; coming from the CI/CD collective, so my mileage may vary from the R collective:

My take is we don't show tag gold badges on answers and it doesn't weight in answers, RM shouldn't bear any more weight.

While mod on DevOps.se, I found the mod badge on my answer had a bias influence to them, sometimes preventing other answers and people leaving comments on my answer instead.

So I'd go further as to not show anything more than any other user on answers (including the diamond of mod/staff), except for meta sites where mod/staff/recognized member status can have a real weight on the answer by showing a status or experience giving a bit more weight within talks.

A "flag" on an answer to be "validated" by the collective sounds a good idea to surface the best/most idiomatic answer even if not the most popular one, but the author status shouldn't play a role there. From StackOverflow customs, answers should be evaluated on their own merit whoever wrote them.

It's a bit out of topic but related; the validation mark should be a vote thing like a close vote is and not a single handled thing like dupe closure from a gold tag owner.

As the RM status is not something earned by participation alone, I really feel it shouldn't be part of the flair on answers, answers shouldn't get more "weight" and as an aside RM shouldn't be able to mark their own answer as "Community XY endorsed answer" to at least encourage a peer review.

(I may have missed some evolution in the past two weeks, so bear with me if I did miss them and kindly link them in the comments)

2
  • 1
    I'd say showing the/a badge for comments on the main sote is not entirely inappropriate considering that comments can be used for moderation messages. Commented May 2, 2023 at 3:56
  • 1
    I focused on answers, but yes for comments as for meta it would make sense.
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 2, 2023 at 9:22

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .