17

Earlier this month, we announced that the next collectives would be focused on areas of practice. Today, two new collectives are now available to join: CI/CD Collective and R Language Collective

The CI/CD Collective and the R Language Collective provide a focused view of questions and tags within those areas of practice. As members join and start contributing to the knowledge base, we look forward to continuing to explore ways these subcommunities might positively impact the whole network.

Each of these new collectives has a pinned bulletin that details its current areas of focus, processes (which are still being developed) and potential projects to discuss.

If you’re active in these areas of practice, or are looking to learn more, we encourage you to get involved by joining the collective, being active on questions that are part of the collective, and joining the chat room to converse with other members. Read more about this new iteration of collectives here.

Discussions about the specific collectives here on Meta can use the new tags and that you can see on this post.

Thanks to the community members who collaborated over the last few weeks to brainstorm ideas and define some aspects of the collectives. Many of them are the inaugural Recognized Members of the collectives. 

Feature updates: article editing and moderation

Articles in these two new collectives will be editable by all Members of the collective who have the “edit posts” privilege (earned at 2,000 reputation). Members with lower reputation can still comment on articles or submit private feedback to the author for their review.

Community editing is also now possible on articles that had previously been associated with decommissioned provider collectives (such as this GitLab article). The article’s author will be notified about edits that occur. Those articles can be found in the central index of articles, as well as through conventional search.

Articles can now be flagged for moderation, as with questions and answers, and moderators have more options to handle flagged concerns. As with editing, this facilitates community oversight and maintenance of articles.


We are excited to see where the community guides these new collectives, and incorporate learnings into future launches. How might you contribute to, or interact with, the R and CI/CD collectives? What features are missing that would cause you to more deeply contribute to a collective?

17
  • 16
    Have you done anything with the feedback on the initial announcement?
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 28, 2023 at 19:24
  • 4
    @ErikA Community feedback is always a big piece of planning next steps. Now that these new collectives are in existence, we look forward to more.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Feb 28, 2023 at 21:16
  • 5
    I follow the r tag and now every post I see has also this obnoxiously highlighted R-collective tag. >:|
    – Roland
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 6:46
  • 16
    Isn't the R collective tag redundant with the r tag? Why can't these be merged somehow?
    – Roland
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 15:04
  • 3
    @Roland The collective does need to be distinct from the tag, but we did discuss this visual redundancy for R specifically. Collective iconography will likely evolve over time and we'll keep this in mind as something to address.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 18:25
  • 2
    Re "Community editing is also now possible on articles that had previously been associated with decommissioned provider collectives (such as this GitLab article).": That encourages spam joining (before it is too late) Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 4:40
  • One of the difficulties I'm having is that community edit suggestions do not provide a diff of the suggested changes (or more specifically, suggestions are not provided as actual changes to content, when they reasonably could be, like how answer editing works).
    – sytech
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 5:59
  • @sytech: I think you're talking about the "Feedback" feature for articles, which was there already (you can provide feedback by clicking the paper-and-pencil icon below the downvote button) – is that correct? If so, that hasn't changed as part of this feature update; what this announcement mentions (among other improvements) is the ability to edit a post directly by clicking the "Edit" button – which does involve, well, changing the content directly, just like editing a question or answer.
    – V2Blast Staff
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 16:28
  • 2
    @PeterMortensen Can you elaborate on your concern? I'm not sure what you mean. For the articles mentioned in the quote, there is nothing to join since there is no collective associated.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 18:45
  • 2
    How is R an “area of practice”? It’s a programming language, used within the area of practice of statistical computing and graphics; not an area of practice unto itself. Otherwise I call for the creation of a PHP Collective, for the area of practice of PHP; and a Java Collective, for the area of practice of Java; and a C Collective, for the area of practice of C… Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 12:51
  • 1
    @MartinBean Generally speaking, we see working with a specific language to be, in and of itself, an area of practice. With the R Language Collective, we are exploring the viability of a collective focused on a specific language.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 20:09
  • 1
    @Berthold Then anything can be deemed an “area of practice” by that definition. Work with .NET? That’s an area practice. Work with C#, either within or outside of .NET? Another area of practice. Work with VB in .NET? Another area of practice. Commented Mar 15, 2023 at 1:15
  • "The bulletin also links to a chat room for further discussion about each collective." where? Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 15:56
  • 1
    @BenReiniger We removed the links to the chat rooms before the collectives launched, and forgot to remove that bit from the post above. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing that out. We may highlight the chat rooms in the future.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 20:36
  • 2
    Why CI/CD collective here? Why not on DevOps, that exists for years? Look at stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/jenkins or stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/cicd and wholeheartedly say those questions are about programming.
    – tevemadar
    Commented Feb 10 at 12:22

3 Answers 3

41

What real value does limiting the editing of articles to members of the collective provide if anyone can join by just clicking join? Seems like an unnecessary barrier to entry.

6
  • 3
    It's pretty reasonable to assume that if someone feels they should edit an article, they are someone who would join the collective. As you said, it's just a click, not much of a barrier.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Feb 28, 2023 at 20:14
  • 32
    Sure, however, what are we gaining with this requirement? I understand it certainly helps the data perspective in terms of justifying collectives existing, but surely there's some other reason? I don't need to be a member of a collective to see that images need alt text, or to identify grammatical mistakes.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 28, 2023 at 20:18
  • 3
    I could see this requirement if there was some barrier to joining the collective such that by being a member, we're ensuring it's a user who at least has an interest in the tags for that collective... but that's not the case either.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 28, 2023 at 20:20
  • 19
    "Every single moderator on Stack Overflow has chosen to join our Collectives!" You just don't understand how to engineer good blog posts, Kevin.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 28, 2023 at 22:06
  • 26
    I have to agree with this. I regularly fix minor issues in posts regarding things I know virtually nothing about.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 7:54
  • 4
    If you must join to edit it raises the member count of collectives, so it might send the message that collectives are more used than they really are. Sounds like articifially inflating usage numbers of a feature that has't had any good reception overall.
    – Alejandro
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 19:39
35

I'm really having trouble understanding how this whole thing doesn't undermine/brakes the whole reputation and community based moderation system SO was always known for, and how does it even fulfill its objectives.

It said in here that "Recognized Members of the collective can recommend answers on R questions and review article proposals from collective Members. They also help drive discussion around potential projects and other ways to help improve R content on Stack Overflow."

So, as I understand it (by also asking around), Recognized members should help point users to the "right" answers on old questions where the accepted/most upvoted answer is possibly obsolete basically by adding this thingy above the recommended answer: enter image description here

My questions are as follows:

  1. Why can't the community use the edit button in order to edit the obsolete answers and update them? Isn't this the whole point of the edit button being available for everyone, not just the answerer?
  2. Who said that those members that the Admins (who don't know R) selected know better than anyone else?
  3. What is the voting process to decide which answer is better? From what I gathered, basically two members is enough to vote in order to promote an answer of one of them in some chat room which no one was even notified about
  4. Moreover, why on earth when a "Recognized member" posts an answer he/her gets this huge orange caption under his/her name. This is literally creating a confirmation bias towards his/her answers compared to other users. Most of the SO users don't visit Meta and have no idea what is a collective, instead they see some huge writing under this users name and probably just automatically upvote/accept and take everything this user says as granted. Who gave him/her this power? Some admin who never used R? Who says he knows better than me, or even, let's say some other user that just joined SO but perhaps develops in R for 20 years?

enter image description here

  1. Finally, what this writing under his/her name has anything to do with recommending correct answers on old questions with multiple obsolete answers?
16
  • 9
    On 1. - I really don't like the idea of radically changing an answer. Especially if it's "the top one" hence why it was chosen. Here are the problems I have for it: 1. The old solution might still be relevant. Users on an older tech stack might have need for it, for example. Just updating it to replace with new one, destroys the old knowledge. 2. It works around the voting system. The new solution didn't get all the votes. It might even deserve upvotes. Yet it inherits all the previous votes and presents them as if they were earned. Even if the solution is 1 minute old it takes precedence
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 10:22
  • 2
    @VLAZ you don't need to destroy an answer. What I see usually people do is adding "OLD answer - works for python2x" prefix to the original answer and then add "Updated answer for python 3x" or such- that simple. This is why we have community for- if the edit is bad, some one will fix it, and then someone else will edit again and fix typos and so on- until it reaches near perfection- this is why stats work. Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 11:14
  • You don't need to destroy it...nor do you need to preserve it. I've seen multiple "updates" that just replaced an answer entirely. And even more subtly multiple edits over a long period of time can eventually remove the original through incremental changes. Each of them focusing on something concrete but the sum total is that something was lost.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 11:16
  • 2
    What stops the same process from happening with recommended answers? AIUI the "Accepted Answer" is the OP's view of the best answer at the time, and the "Recommended Answer" is the Collective's view of the best answer whenever anyone in the collective was last bothered to look at it.
    – Spacedman
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 11:40
  • 4
    fwiw, all answers by "recognized members" are labeled as "recognized answers", they just don't get the additional "recommended line", instead the answerer themselves get the label. Even on "Hey, your problem is caused by a typo" answers that shouldn't exist. They also get listed with the rest of the recognized answers within the collection, regardless of value. It's just promoting these users for answering enough duplicates to be selected.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 15:21
  • 2
    @DavidArenburg We did research a few years ago on "outdated answers" and found that the community does not feel comfortable updating someone else's answer, even if it is outdated, because it can still be useful.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 20:37
  • 1
    @DavidArenburg The initial group of Recognized Members were people we approached based on contributions in these tags and subject areas, looking specifically at: overall reputation, amount of posts in the subject areas, scores on those posts, recency of the posts, the number of posts that were answers, and amount of problematic flags. Each subcommunity will be able to determine its own process for selecting/inviting new Recognized Members, a process that can evolve over time. Similarly, they can determine how answer recommendation happens.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 2, 2023 at 20:43
  • 2
    @Berthold I can accept your first point regarding users not wanting to edit others obsolete answers (especially if it is backed up by a research), and hence, you are trying a different approach. Nevertheless, I don't see any due process regarding the selection of "Recognized Members" (neither me or many other have not been approached), neither there is any due process on voting on answers (like the process for deleting answers) neither I understand why "Recognized Members" have huge orange writing under their answers- what it has to do with anything, under what right or purpose this was given? Commented Mar 3, 2023 at 9:40
  • 1
    @DavidArenburg For the selection of the initial group, we started with queries using the factors listed in my previous response. Then we "went down the list" and tried to contact people to see if they were interested in participating. Outreach options are pretty limited and has mainly been through chat. Now that the collective has launched, people with interest in the RM role can inquire (via the SO contact form, currently). That has been the process thus far. Perhaps not perfect, but using the tools we have at our disposal and trying to be as objective as possible.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 3, 2023 at 20:53
  • 1
    @DavidArenburg With regard to establishing process around answer recommendation, and other things like article review, we want that to be community-driven and per-collective, so there was no mandate about how it should happen ahead of the launch. Making those determinations in the abstract (before the collective exists) is tough, so those conversations are happening now, and the processes can evolve over time. If someone disagrees with a specific recommendation, they can comment on that answer with the details. That's part of the community-driven process.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 3, 2023 at 20:56
  • 1
    @DavidArenburg With regard to the visual labeling, these are new and so will take time to acquire broad meaning and understanding as collectives become more commonly experienced. The nuance, design and wording might change over time as the community gives feedback. The intent is to add domain-specific credibility to that user’s answer, just like displaying their overall rep does in a broader sense. Certainly that credibility rests in part on how the role is bestowed, it's all tied together.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Mar 3, 2023 at 20:59
  • @DavidArenburg Adding updated answer to an existing answer is not acceptable in my view, since it is an attempt to reply not an edit. Adding a prefix and then posting another answer, seems like a legit solution. Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 16:22
  • 1
    About no. 3 and 4: I couldn't agree more. I am a "recognized member", and certainly I know a lot of people who know more about R than I do. I think recognized members privilege should be in curation, not recommending their answer. So far, I don't see a due process for recommending an answer. I tried the chatroom and trying to reach a consensus among 10-12 recognized members and I failed (nobody responded to my concerns). So, right now, if someone decides one answer is better, they unilaterally recommend it. (p.s. recognized members answers cannot be recommended). Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 16:28
  • No. 2: when we reach a consensus about the criteria for recognized members, you probably are going to receive an invite. It's a mix of reputation, r-tag score, and curation/moderation efforts. Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 16:31
  • @M-- technically, recognized members answers are automagically recommended. They show in all places "recommended" answers are listed.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 14, 2023 at 16:32
15

The R Collective logo - white R symbol on light orange background. This logo is shown on a page where the background is entirely black.

I use high contrast dark mode and I find it really difficult to read and recognise the R collective logo. On a page which is entirely dark, it just looks like a tiny square of light. I need to focus on it to even notice something is inside the light yellow-orange-ish square. But it is white, so hard to make out.

I am not exaggerating for effect with the following: the way I recognised it was an R collective logo is that I knew R and CI/CD collectives were launched recently and this question had an tag. So I put two and two "knowing that collectives have logos" and "R has a collective together" to find out what it said.


Apparently the icons are for light and dark mode. The resources are specifically https://cdn.sstatic.net/Sites/stackoverflow/Img/subcommunities/r-language.svg and https://cdn.sstatic.net/Sites/stackoverflow/Img/subcommunities/r-language-dark.svg

The light mode version looks much better than the dark mode version (images courtesy of Ryan M):

R collective logo in light mode. The letter R is in while on a brownish orange background.

R collective logo in dark mode. The letter R is in while on a light yellow background.

Using the light mode icon for dark mode does look a lot more readable:

The light mode icon on a page that is in high contrast dark mode.

3
  • 2
    Also broken in dark mode, but looks fine in light mode.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 7:50
  • 4
    Thanks for sharing the issue with dark mode. Will take a look!
    – J.S Staff
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 14:25
  • 3
    We fixed the issue with the R Language logo. Thanks again for bringing it up.
    – J.S Staff
    Commented Mar 1, 2023 at 18:05

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .