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Last week, I accidentally burninated the [nova] tag. I say "accidentally" because the burnination occurred as a side-effect1 of retagging questions with that tag to have a better tag (from to ).

This retagging and burnination seems to have ruffled some feathers, I assume because it was done without community consensus. However, I am not aware of any process that is required to be utilized prior to retagging, nor that consensus is required for retagging.

The burnination process overview mentions retagging, but does not explicitly state that the same process must be followed for retag requests. Is this the case, i.e. is retagging considered a subset of burnination, even if a retag won't result in a burnination?

1 Tags that are empty (as now is after my retag) are automatically burninated by the system. I did not know this at the time.

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  • 2
    Cody Gray's closing statement in their answer appears to address their thoughts on this.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:00
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    @Larnu Cody is explicitly referring to burnination, not retagging. I am explicitly referring to retagging, not burnination.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:03
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    But, in this event, the retagging burninated. Retagging to correct incorrect tags is fine (someone tags mysql instead of sql-server, for example), there's nothing wrong with that, but retagging to result in burnination, or even mass retagging before the community has come to a consensus on the correct tagging, is not. nova had not agreed to be "wrong" just ambiguous at that stage, from what I read of the related question.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:05
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    @Larnu That is my point: AFAIK there is no guidance on considering those sort of side-effects when retagging occurs.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:10
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    If it's a newly created tag, or has only a couple of questions that are clearly able to be better tagged, I would suggest it isn't a problem; mass editing is a problem though. This appears to be the latter.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:12
  • @Larnu In this case there were 7 questions that were retagged. Does that count as "mass editing" now?
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:14
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    @IanKemp I'd guess the notion of "mass editing" more applies to the laravel-nova tag, where someone seems to have retagged around 40 nova questions within 20 minutes. IMHO this is not okay, as it may cause quite some disruption in the "active questions" feed...
    – janw
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 12:29
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    The retagging to laravel-nova looks especially problematic because it was just a retagging without fixing any other mayor problem of the posts. There are several where other editing would also have been required. Edit: Just noticed that this also applies to the question you retagged to nova-editor. Tag cleanup should not just be retagging.
    – BDL
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 13:01
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    @janw For clarification, I did not touch the laravel-nova tag. (My comments on the retagging question note that I was surprised that it was gone.) For the nova => nova-editor questions that I retagged, I did check them and voted to close a few (but did not do any further editing AFAIR).
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 13:05
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    No one is saying you made amendments to laravel-nova tag, @IanKemp , but the changes by multiple users to retag nova to be either laravel-nova or nova-editor is a problem. The problem wasn't simply due to your own efforts to clean up nova.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 13:12
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    Just FYI, the rule you need here is tags with more than 50 questions need a Meta to burninate. Because someone retagged 12k questions and got in trouble with devs
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 2:18
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    You may be conflating "burnination" here with "blacklisting". Retagging is part of the burnination process (as others have already pointed out now)
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 21:03
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    I'm not an active user, but I'm gonna be honest, whenever I want to find any information, I have to search for months. And so, it took me months of reading occasional "should we burninate" questions to have a small glimpse that "burnination" is destroying a tag when it has a question count of zero by the end of the day (from removing/replacing it)... or something like that. So, if anything, I can understand your confusion.
    – Clockwork
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 7:45
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    I just found the [retag-request] info and tag [clean-up] info pages, the latter of which even is some sort of process document - but I've never seen it followed
    – Bergi
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 10:54
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    @Machavity No, that person removed tags from 12k questions, which is far closer to "burnination" than "retagging", at least in my books. The "re" in "retagging" implies replacement, not simple deletion.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 12:55

3 Answers 3

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I am going to ignore the issues that happened with the tag in particular, and instead give general advice as to how you can go ahead with retag requests:

  1. Get the community consensus first! Do not go ahead and just edit all the posts that you feel like removing the tag from. This is troublesome, as there might have been arguments against that which we haven't heard from the community yet. For the question as to how to get a community consensus:

    • Write an answer to the Meta question proposing the tag's removal/burnination detailing the steps that you're planning to take.
    • Mention clearly as to what your plans are and why you feel like that's good.
    • Wait for votes/comments. I suggest waiting for a week at least.
    • Respond to criticism. Don't just sit back and assume that others are wrong and you're right.

    Once you're done with this and have enough of community approval, you would have a "Can retag" pass. You might also have other volunteers join you to help you.

  2. Keep the community updated.

    • Did you edit out tags? Good! Edit the answer and let the others know.
    • Did you vote to close a question? Awesome! Update the answer and talk about it.
    • Did you hit a road block and aren't able to take a decision? Totally fine! Call it out in the post and some one will come to help.

    Documenting everything you do before and after is a great way to make sure that you aren't just some random person who's bent on tag removal.

  3. Pace yourself, don't blindly retag, learn about the available tools. Updating 100s of posts in a day is easy using scripts, but it's extremely annoying for users who are following those tags. Try to avoid doing more than 10~15 at a time. Also update the entire post and clean it up.

    Also, if you see bad posts, toss a close vote while you're at it. If there are some cases where you feel like it won't get closed via the queue, post it in chat, or even update your meta answer. That'll help you out.

    Finally, learn about the existing tools. For example, let's say there are 100 questions in , 80 of which need to be changed to , and 20 to , don't retag all of them. Change the 20 to , and get a mod to rename to . You save yourself some time by doing that.

  4. Let the mods know about your work. Moderators have some real good tools and are willing to help out if they have time. They can come in handy when closing/deleting bad questions, doing mass retags, and so on. Sometimes users might not be aware of this effort and flag your activities. If moderators are aware of your work, then they might just clear that flag out.

  5. Try to take the top users' advice. This helps a lot in taking down notes as to what can be done and what's the best way of doing it. Remember to be calm, composed and courteous. There have been issues in the past where users have created extra work by being too eager. Try to not do something similar.

If you follow these, I'm sure that you wouldn't ruffle any feathers, and in fact you might get additional wings that'll help you soar high. Hoping that this would help users working on retag requests.

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    "learn about the existing tools" - do we (should we) have a FAQ entry you could link there?
    – Bergi
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 20:13
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    "Let the mods know about your work" - where? Are mods expected to follow all meta activity and notice when I edit my retag-proposal answer? Should I ping them in chat? Cast custom flags?
    – Bergi
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 20:14
  • @Bergi, I am not sure if there's any FAQ, but spending some time working with other users who have prior experience with retagging helps. And for the second question, usually mods do see meta posts, but pinging them in chat would probably be a better option.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 20:26
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    "and have enough of community approval" - for me it is difficult to judge what "enough" means here. Can you provide some kind of criterion, for example, "a score of 10 or more", "a score of 20 or more", or "at least 3 encouraging comments"?
    – honk
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 7:38
  • This is an excellent piece of clear guidelines. Thanks!
    – fedorqui
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 8:14
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    @honk There aren't concrete values like that. Once you see a post, you can, in most cases, clearly say what the consensus is. Putting a hard limit for the number of votes wouldn't be a good idea, as there might be some posts which don't get a lot of views as such. Also, a top user's (in that tag) disagreement carries more value than say 4~5 users who don't have much experience in that tag, so coming up with absolute values would be hard. There are situations where the community is torn, but those are rare.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 10:05
  • I've accepted this answer as "correct" because while it de facto answers my question with "no", it does set out a useful process that we can and, I believe should, follow. I propose making it a Community Wiki for future reference and linking to it from the appropriate places, much like what is currently done for burninations.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 16:49
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What do you actually think burnination is? It's the systematic elimination of a tag via retagging of the questions that originally had that tag.

What did you do? You systematically removed the tag from all questions that had that tag by retagging them to some other tag.

That's literally the definition of "burnination".

Furthermore, the reason you chose to remove the tag was because the Meta discussion proposing burnination had brought it to your attention.

I find it difficult to believe that you did not know that burnination == retagging. I do not find the feigned ignorance in this question to be very credible. But, I'll suspend disbelief and just state that, when your goal is to remove a tag from all questions in the system, then that's a major undertaking that needs to be discussed and agreed upon via Meta, following the burnination process that has already been brought to your attention.

It's been discussed before, but maybe the term "burnination" is too cutesy and needs to be replaced with something else. We've clung to it because we thought it was fun and not sufficiently confusing, but if even veteran users are being confused by it and thus doing harm, then we probably do need to change it.

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    "It's the systematic elimination of a tag via retagging of the questions that originally had that tag." that's patently false. Burnination is removal of a tag of the selection of tags, plain and simple. That's what happened with internet, gaming, user, etc. The issue here is that many tags that are removed also have other problems. Nova didn't have any of that. It was a disambiguation.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 17:10
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    Cody, I am not intentionally playing dumb in any way shape or form here. I believe the issue is that I interpreted that retagging request as a benign "correct things that are wrong", as opposed to a burnination which, as its name suggests, is an intentionally destructive action. A tag being burninated is not necessarily the result or intention of a retag - it may be an incidental result (if a tag becomes empty the system automatically cleans it up - which again, I did not know before I did that retagging) - whereas a burnination request is explicitly intended to destroy a tag.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 17:16
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    @IanKemp Except that you set out to destroy the tag. That was the very thing that was mentioned as being "wrong" in the original Meta post, the very thing that you set out to correct. So, I honestly don't see the distinction that you are trying to draw here. Removing a tag is a destructive action that needs to be undertaken very carefully, whether right or wrong.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 0:18
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    Would your response be different in a hypothetical world where the tag was split between two uses, and Ian had only removed the tag from half? Is that still a burnination?
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 2:24
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    Probably similar, @RyanM. It's a single person embarking on a crusade due to a Meta question that was merely attempting to start a discussion. Take it out of the context of tags. Consider a Meta question that proposed, "We should start requiring that all questions include the name of the programming language in the title." It'd be very inappropriate for a single user (or even a small group of users) to see that Meta question being posted, decide they agree with it, and then set out to start mass-retitling questions on SO.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 4:35
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    I always understood burnination to be untagging - getting rid of inappropriate tags, with fire. (Of course, when removing tags sometimes more edits are required, especially if it was the only tag). But retagging is something different: to disambiguate a tag with multiple or muddy meanings, to clean up a tag that has been used in a wrong way, where the tag generally is on-topic - possibly with a similar result to renaming the tag. And that really needs a different process, I never thought this to be covered by the burnination rules.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 20:36
  • @Bergi The first step of implementing tag burninations is tag cleanup; creating new tags (or identifying existing ones) that more appropriate fit the topic, and then editing the questions that have the to-be-burninated tag. That editing step includes substeps of both 'fix problems with the post' and 're-tag the question as appropriate'. Just FYI. That being said, yes, there is tag cleanup that exists outside of tag burninations. Disambiguation and re-tagging are their own kind of process but they do follow similar requirements, IIRC.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 21, 2021 at 22:25
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    @Bergi Untagging is the same as retagging: the only way to remove a tag is to edit and retag questions that had that tag. This is consistent with both retagging and burnination. I see the argument that there are different motivations for the retagging work: in one case, it's to completely remove the tag, whereas in the other case, it's just to disambiguate it. But, motivations aside, the process and outcomes are identical.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 5:14
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    @CodyGray Retagging means adding other tags after removing some, untagging does not. (Sure, if one can find relevant tags, the former is always preferred). Notice that even the burnination process document itself distinguishes burninations from alternatives like retagging or tag cleanups.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 10:52
-9

To answer your title. No, there isn't a process for anything other than burnination. The process of burnination was always meant for "whether or not to completely eliminate a tag from the system". In simple words, there would be 1 less tag in the system by the end of it.

Is my opinion, that SO meta users masochistically decided to apply it for everything that implies the removal of a tag, even if the corpus of tags grows. A good example of where to apply the process is given by the end of the post that created it:

For tags that involve large numbers of questions, just flag the burninate-request and leave a note for the moderators that the cleanup is done. They'll pass this along to someone like me, I'll verify that you didn't lie about the sanity-checking and cleanup, click a button, and it'll be like the tag never existed...

If the above didn't convince you that the frame of reference was about bulk removing a tag, I don't know what will.

Many of the worse tags, were inviting also bad, ugly and off topic questions. That's why a cleanup was introduced in those cases, and in retrospect, the source of confusion and should have been kept separated. There could be a cleanup effort without the need of removing a tag, same with disambiguation, re-tagging and other tag reorganization.

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