-37

First of all, Stack Overflow deleted the first part of this comment automatically. I am trying to write "Hi Everyone on Meta" in the beginning. (I know this is automatic, but this is how I would like to express this question).

Anyways,

I thought I would blow some of my reputation points by asking this question. I'm super frustrated because I have a 501 reputation, which apparently gives me rights now to approve or not approve new users' questions or something. (I have a queue now).

But I myself am so frustrated on this site that I can't even ask a question without freaking out that it's going to get shut down.

I really think something needs to change. The point is: If you have a user that is gotten to the point that they can apparently approve or disapprove of questions, but they themselves can not ask a question, this points to an issue. Since I have seen/heard of other people feeling bullied on this site, I thought this was a good time to raise my concern.

Maybe allow people to cluster questions, instead of marking them as duplicates?

Tag questions as "novice" or "newbie" so that people who are getting oriented in programming aren't just shut down by users who have poor communication skills, but high "stack overflow reputations" - Maybe allow one question to have multiple titles added to it, so that it is more likely to show up in all of the various searches that people do.

For example, I'll get marked as "duplicate" but when I look at the title of the post that is marked, I would have NEVER found it via search.

It would also be nice if there were a multiple-choice box, where you have to explain why you down-voted a question. (For example, my reputation has not changed in a really long time. Coincidentally, after posting this, one question that always only got up votes suddenly got down-votes). This would also make it less mysterious. As is, you're just getting a ruler smacked on your knuckles (figuratively speaking) with no reason why, etc.

Anyone else have any ideas too ... or just generally want to let me know how right I am !? lol. (That is a joke)

The response I've gotten so far is, in essence, that if I don't like the site, why not just leave. Counter point: If you don't want to read people's feedback, ideas, and/or complaints, why not just "leave" this question?

31
  • 10
    Voting on meta is different and doesn't affect your reputation.
    – Dave
    Commented Jan 8, 2020 at 23:18
  • 12
    One problem I see is shown in the way you've phrased something: I'll get marked as "duplicate". The question was marked as a duplicate, not you. In fact, it has nothing to do with you. Someone, or several people, looked at the question, recognized it as having been asked before, and took action to mark it as a duplicate. Commented Jan 8, 2020 at 23:30
  • 8
    So you can't blow any rep, can't use salutations, don't actually have a "queue", there is no "clustering", hi-rep users got there by helping users like you, can't use multiple titles, users routinely find SO posts back with Google queries. But yes, having this little insight in how the site works inevitably will prove to be frustrating. Consider it is just not the place to hang your hat. Commented Jan 8, 2020 at 23:32
  • @HereticMonkey Yes, did you not know that I was referring to my question and not literally myself? The point is that because it is a duplicate, you get down-voted/ penalized, prevented from getting answers that are more specific to your exact situation.
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 0:33
  • 7
    @Maiya, regarding your latest edit, that has been suggested and rejected many, many times. Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 0:52
  • 5
    @Maiya "did you not know that I was referring to my question and not literally myself?" - no. We see people coming to meta with "you punished me with high quality answers provided in duplicates" all the time. It is very hard to see that you've used "I" as "question" in the post. Don't forget that many of posters on meta (as well as on the main site) are coming from places where English is not the native language and recognizing such things like referring to the question as "I" is hard. Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 2:12
  • @JohnMontgomery In other words many, many people have asked for it and been ignored.
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:23
  • 3
    You can ask a bad advanced questions and people leave it alone. Do you have an example?
    – BSMP
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 6:10
  • 1
    @Maiya so you downvoted posts at least 3 times... presumably you provided detailed comments why... and yet there were no reason to remove those downvotes. Instead of telling that you disagree with every base rule of the site it may be better to ask how to improve your commenting skills so people actually react poitively to your comments about downvtes and act on those... That actually may help with your crusade to make everyone leave comments on all sorts of votes.... Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 7:25
  • 1
    I see - so you are fine that posts you downvoted and commented on were not improved after your comments... Many people have hard time dealing with that which is one of many reasons why feature "require comment on (down)votes" still does not have solution that can be implemented. While you believe all such suggestions were completely ignored you may want to spend couple minutes looking through meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/linked/357436?lq=1 to see if maybe someone had reasons why that feature would not bring results you probably expect... Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 8:01
  • 2
    "The only time I have given a downvote is to the answer when ppl were being smug and/or rude" — You should really vote on technical accuracy and overall usefulness of a post. If a post becomes less useful due to an overabundance of smugness or rudeness, yeah, that's probably a reason to downvote; in extreme cases flag it for moderator attention. If you're not exercising your votes to downvote wrong and/or not useful content, you really should start doing that.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 8:10
  • 2
    Frankly, many users have trouble coming up with one good title. Not sure how realistically useful allowing multiple would be.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 8:51
  • 1
    Currently other people can edit the post to fix the one title into something good. I think that's more useful than allowing multiple titles. How would multiple titles show up in the question and/or list views? Seems like a lot of additional clutter if it's all displayed. If it's not displayed and only used as search keywords… the search already looks at the body content too, so there's enough room to add additional content for searchability.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 8:56
  • 5
    That "What is NRE and how to fix it" has decent number (4K+) of questions that use it as duplicate target - so if you can design UI that nicely shows all 4858 different titles wherever you wanted them to show up I'm sure such feature request would get way more upbeat (not necessary more positive) welcome. Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 9:03
  • 4
    "If you have a user that is gotten to the point that they can apparently approve or disapprove of questions, but they themselves can not ask a question, this points to an issue." — That is indeed an interesting point that has so far gotten quite lost. It'd be interesting to talk about why exactly you "can't ask questions." Maybe mull that point over for a little longer and post a new topic focused on just that.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 18:59

1 Answer 1

26

First of all, Stack Overflow deleted the first part of this comment automatically. I am trying to write "Hi Everyone on Meta" in the beginning.

There is never a reason to start posts with "Hi", including on Meta; that's why it is removed automatically.

I thought I would blow some of my reputation points by asking this question.

Reputation doesn't exist on Meta, so you can't lose anything.

I'm super frustrated because I have a 501 reputation, which apparently gives me rights now to approve or not approve new users' questions or something. (I have a queue now).

But I myself am so frustrated on this site that I can't even ask a question without freaking out that it's going to get shut down.

I really think something needs to change. I'm fed up.

You need to be a lot more clear about what exactly it is that's making you "frustrated" or "fed up".

Having a question marked as a duplicate is not a punishment or anything bad. It just means the question has already been asked and answered on this site. Yes, sometimes the duplicates are obvious, and your own research should have turned them up. But other times, they're not at all obvious, and someone with expertise in the topic/domain is needed to find them. That's OK: the system is designed to allow that. The advantage of having your question marked as a duplicate is that you can immediately get an answer. Furthermore, you know that the answers have been vetted by the community over time, accruing votes and edits that a brand-new answer to your question wouldn't have the time to get.

Tag questions as "novice" or "newbie" so that people who are getting oriented in programming aren't just shut down by users who have poor communication skills, but high "stack overflow reputations."

This has been proposed multiple times, but isn't going to happen. We don't close questions on Stack Overflow because they are "too newbie". That's not a problem. We do, however, have strict quality standards and other specific requirements for questions, which you can read about in the Help Center. We have these requirements because experience has taught us that these features are required in order for a question to work in our Q&A format. Thus, a newbie site wouldn't solve anything anyway, since it would still use the same Q&A format. There is the additional problem that a newbie site wouldn't be able to attract experts to answer the questions, resulting in a quality vacuum—and since high-quality content is probably what brings newbies to Stack Overflow anyway, this would kind of be shooting ourselves in the foot.

(Speaking of duplicates, you can easily find many questions covering this topic of bifurcating Stack Overflow into a "beginner" and "expert" site by searching Meta.)

Also, please stop accusing people who help to curate this site of having "poor communication skills" or operating with less-than-pure motives. We have a very engaged community of users who volunteer their free time to maintain the quality of this site. We should all be thankful for the work that they do. Mistakes may sometimes be made, but they are also easily corrected. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone who works to moderate this site is motivated by reputation, and, in fact, moderation/curation activities don't gain you any reputation, so ascribing that motivation doesn't even make sense.

Maybe allow one question to have multiple titles added to it, so that it is more likely to show up in all of the various searches that people do.

This is almost literally the way our "duplicate" system is designed to work. You see, each new question that is marked as a duplicate serves as a pointer, redirecting to the "master" question. Thus, the "master" question does actually have multiple titles associated with it, making it more likely to be found in the future, regardless of which search terms are used. Eventually, the idea is that a question will be asked in all of the common ways, providing complete coverage of the associated search terms. We want all of these different permutations to redirect back to the "master" question in order to keep the answers all in one place for easy maintenance.

22
  • Re: "Having a question marked as a duplicate is not a punishment or anything bad" It actually is. People down-vote it if it is duplicate, and it gets locked, so people can not answer your question specifically. The down-votes mean you can't ask more questions. If you edit it, those who down-vote it don't look at it to change their vote.
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:35
  • Re: "We don't close questions on Stack Overflow because they are "too newbie." I totally disagree. Spoken to lots of newbies that get their questions shot down, and the newbies exclaim, "Well, if I had known [whatever info they were supposed to have included] I wouldn't have had the question in the first place!" I think it's a problem with SO having poor communication skills for non-tech people. You can ask a bad advanced questions and people leave it alone. But ask a good newbie question and they shoot it down.
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:39
  • re: "This is almost literally the way our "duplicate" system is designed to work." No, it absolutely does not. When someone is asking a question, it can be asked from many different angles. Allowing multiple alternative titles to be added by other users would cut down on duplicates. (Again, asking a duplicate question gets you down-voted and penalizes your right to ask questions, etc).
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:42
  • re: "duplicate question votes" This is another argument in favor of a multiple choice/ comment box for down-votes. People seem to be under the impression that it is their duty to down-vote both beginner questions and duplicate questions.
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:43
  • 10
    Lack of research effort is a common reason to downvote, so much so that it is documented in the tooltip on the downvote arrow. Some duplicate questions are sufficiently lacking in research effort that it makes sense to downvote them. Others are not. I covered this distinction in my answer. Also...you're gonna need a lot more than a couple of downvotes on dupe questions to get banned from asking. That's a total quality metric, and has almost no false-positives in my experience.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:57
  • 10
    You identify "poor communication skills" as the problem for newbies, but it's not the real problem. The real problem is that folks operate under the mistaken assumption that this site is a help desk, where any question can be asked. That's not the case. We have very strict standards/requirements for questions, and we only allow certain types of questions. If your question isn't accepted here, well, sorry, but you're out of luck. Regardless of experience level. We don't do tutorials, which is often what newbies need. They just don't work in our format. Our model is closer to Wikipedia.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 4:58
  • I'm not even sure what all the words here are for. It boils down to me saying that a lot of people have my same complaints, but get shut down. And then you giving the same canned answers that are given ad infinitum and shutting down these same complaints. I am aware of what Stack Overflow is. Cheers.
    – anon
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 5:22
  • 7
    People disagreeing with you is not the same as getting "shut down".
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 5:30
  • 12
    @Maiya If you're "aware what Stack Overflow is" and don't like what it is: Why do you bother to come here and get frustrated? Is it because of the quality of the answers? If it is, ask yourself why the quality is so good - it's because the site has the restrictions and rules about which you complain. It's that simple. If everything were allowed, SO would be like every other "forum" out there; the experts wouldn't be here to answer; poor content would be left, just like everywhere else. Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 6:02
  • 6
    @Maiya nobody suggested you left - the entire comment was to remind you why are you still here. You are here (presumably) for the quality. Your suggestion is to drop the quality - the one reason you are still around. If that assumption is incorrect, then what does motivate you to stay here? Because it might still be a transitive property of the quality standards.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 8:34
  • 2
    @Maiya No, I wrote "Why do you bother to come here and get frustrated?" You've taken the statement out of context, changed the wording, then twisted what was meant. You say coming here frustrates you - I ask why you do that to yourself? I never say you should leave - what I do say is that if the quality of the site is what makes you come, even if you feel frustrated, then it makes little sense to reduce that quality <shrug> Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 15:08
  • 2
    @Maiya in other words: you basically say coming to stack is difficult and frustrating to you. I dunno for you... but I try not to stay exposed to things that are difficult or frustrating..... Except if they bring me something I need. So, Cindy's question was more along the lines of "even with the frustration, I think you come back to Stack because its got content you want to use".... that very content is there because of a lot of the rules you seem to disagree with. Stack is just suffering from it's own success. What used to be "research"->"find stack"->"find solution", became "ask stack".
    – Patrice
    Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 16:53
  • 2
    @Maiya if any user thinks that downvotes etc. are any kind of bullying, they have no experience of real bullying, cyber or physical. They are totally clueless and don't care about real victims, only for the value of the word to abuse curators. Commented Jan 9, 2020 at 23:32
  • 1
    It is possibly a bit dramatic. But probably fundamentally true.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jan 10, 2020 at 3:16
  • 1
    I know that. I am saying that what Martin is saying is fundamentally correct. Whether you think it is "dramatic" or not.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jan 10, 2020 at 5:33