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While reading another question on meta I noticed talk about downvoting a bad question from a new user, noticing an upvote come in, undoing and then redoing the downvote.

Is there any thoughts/policies on undoing and redoing a downvote on a low rep user after an upvote has come in? To me it seems less welcoming than just downvoting in the first place as it appears to be done in order to remove some of the reputation gained from the bad upvote.

Example:

  • New user at 1 rep makes a post
  • Existing user downvotes post with no rep lost to new user due to them being at one rep
  • Another user comes along and upvotes the post giving the new user 6 rep
  • Existing user undoes the downvote, reapplies the downvote which lowers the new users rep from 6 to 4 as a result of the reapplied downvote.
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  • 5
    Do you mean that -1 -> +1 results in +5 rep while +1 -> -1 results in +3 rep? This would only be applicable if user is very close to 1 rep. Otherwise order wouldn't make any difference.
    – BDL
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:22
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    @BDL I added an example, let me know if that makes it clear.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:26
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    Even if wrong it is as impossible to block as “pity upvotes”. So we just need lo accept the possibility that these things happen on occasion.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:31
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    @yivi There is also the possibility of a new feature that causes vote reversal and reapplication within a short set amount of time to revert back to the amount of reputation that it applied before the changes. This would apply to downvotes of new users and upvotes of users who had already hit the rep cap when the upvote was applied. Though that can still be gotten around but would require more work on the person doing the voting.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:34
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    @xdtTransform What does that at all have to do with someone undoing and redoing a downvote that gave no rep loss (due to user being at 1 rep) to counter the rep gain from someone else upvoting the post?
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:44
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    Undo>Redo, happends. Either because you missjudge the edit and the question is still well within close/burn range. We don't have to counter one reputation gain. For the same reason we do not carry previous downvote in order to cripple an user. As an user will have an hard time coming back from double digit downvote. Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:49
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    Downvote are personal you should not consider others votes in order to decide what to do. Be fair in your vote and Don't try to punish or execute "the justice they deserve" yourself. Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:59
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    Also I would question someone that undoes and redoes a downvote after an edit because they didn't take time to fully read the edit before undoing the downvote That's neither here nor there. You can question all you want, but that behaviour is not problematic. A user feels that made a mistake and wants to correct it? That's fine.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:00
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    I guess I did that ^_^ It was a first for me doing this, and I was just curious what would happen. As it turned out I was surprised that this would work (I honestly thought I wouldn't be able to reapply my downvote) Won't do that again (and will remove that info from the previous question, as I already got some random downvotes since asking the question on some other questions)
    – Icepickle
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:20
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    This sounds like a bug. I always thought post rep is a straight ( ( uv * points[5, 10, or 15] ) - ( dv * 2 ) ) rather than an ad-hoc deduction/increase based on user's current rep.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:48
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    @MonkeyZeus That would actually hurt new users that really get downvoted heavily on a bad initial post, since now it's timestamped and they cannot go below 1, it's not such a problem for them (1 upvote can reverse 10 downvote before that)
    – Icepickle
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 16:01
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    @Icepickle I was thinking that it could be isolated on a per-post basis but I am starting to see how that would quickly get complicated and unfair.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 16:06
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    @KevinB Then we would have to force the downvoter to come back and re-evaluate their downvote if the question is edited into a meritable state. As it stands, if the question is edited adequately then future visitor upvotes will reflect the question's adequacy. I really think this is a non-issue since the window of opportunity is as negligible as the affect on reputation.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:08
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    Definitely a non-issue. It's no different than any other use of changing votes during the window. It can be used to troll, regardless of the rep change, but it's a necessary feature. Negative rep would be bad for new user engagement, and hidden negative rep even more so as it would also be confusing.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:09
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    I was thinking about asking this too before, but if that happens, i would un-upvote and up-vote again, back to 6 rep :-) Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 2:55

4 Answers 4

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Votes (up, down, close, delete, etc.) have nothing to do with being welcoming. They are curation, which we use to maintain our quality standards. All posts must meet those standards, new users and established users alike.

That said, re-voting on a post because of what someone else has done isn't really a good idea. They're primarily supposed to send a signal to future readers, which it does no matter what order the votes come in. Doing it specifically to counteract a rep gain is getting awful close to voting on the user.

Vote on the post. Who votes on it afterwards is immaterial to the primary goal.

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  • I was referring more to the act of undoing and redoing the vote in order to cause reputation loss than the vote itself since in cases like this it would have caused no reputation lost when first cast.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:23
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    Doing it specifically to counteract a rep gain is getting awful close to voting on the user. And the last paragraph is what we're trying to do. Send that signal; that's more important than reducing someone's rep by two points.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:23
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    Which is why I asked the question.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 14:27
  • I would undo my action (it was indeed against the post and not against the user) if I could, but that post has been deleted already anyhow...
    – Icepickle
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:21
  • @Icepickle As long as you're voting on the post, no issue. The scenario being presented is specifically voting because someone else voted in a manner you didn't like.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:27
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    I dunno, I'm kind of on both minds here. Voting against the user is more along the lines of voting because of the user. In this context, the OP is already voting on the question. Someone else comes in and votes because of the user (e.g. upvote to "cancel out" the downvote). It's likely not the way votes were intended to be used, but it's also not really voting fraud since again, the OP was already voting on the question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:39
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    @Makoto Voting specifically to cause a reputation reduction, after you've already voted on it previously, seems kinda sketchy to me. Someone else giving a pity upvote doesn't mean you should respond in kind. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:43
  • @fbueckert: I don't disagree, which is why I'm of both minds here. If it were the case that this happened in the other sequence, we wouldn't be here. It's also very likely the case that this happened in the cool-down period of a vote, where the voter has an opportunity to change their mind. Voting on the user isn't good, but then we're now restricting the voter's ability to undo/redo their vote.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:45
  • @Makoto I'm definitely not saying any action is required here; definitely don't restrict voting in any sense. Just that some additional perspective is in order.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:46
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    Makoto, My thoughts are not to restrict anything with voting but making it so that when you undo and redo the vote in a short period of time it has the same reputation impact as before you undid and redid it.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 12:53
  • @JoeW I agree, that would be a good solution and already works the other way round (downvoting a 1 rep user and undoing it does not re-add the score that were not initially subtracted)
    – dly
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 13:48
  • @Makoto, fbueckert: I think those are voting against a user, but against the upvoting user, not the author of the question. I agree we shouldn't allow this. However, we have all seen questions at -7 receiving an upvote from someone feeling hostile against the moderating users, yielding the net effect of +5. And that hurts. It feels like they are working against quality control. Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 13:51
  • To a degree, I'd agree, @Patrick. I know I'm annoyed when I see an obviously bad question upvoted. Especially when you notice a pattern that points to someone actively working against quality. But...re-voting on the question has no effect for the upvoter; all it does is cause a rep loss for the poster. That's why I feel it's more of a focus on the poster. I take solace in the fact that the crappy question will shortly be deleted, and take the pity upvotes with it.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 15:00
  • Voter intent aside, isn't an easy solution to have SO automatically re-tally rep points from previous votes once a user's points get above a certain threshold?
    – Jonathan M
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 15:02
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    @Patrick I am totally on board with setting those expectations up front. It has to happen there, before someone asks their first question, so they're aware of what we expect, and how they can meet them. Unfortunately, the messaging we've been getting has been extremely lopsided in regards to that, so I'm not at all confident we'll ever reach a point where users will understand the system decently prior to their first question. I lament the days where users would try to acclimate to new environments before participating in them.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 15:13
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No, you shouldn't do this. If nothing else, it's a waste of your time. Who cares enough about a 2-rep impact on another user to bother playing these games?

However, you can never be sure that you have observed this. Somebody who retracts a vote and then reapplies it may simply have changed their mind, or misclicked the first time they voted. We can't possibly stop or punish it, because we can't identify it in the first place without first developing the ability to read users' minds through via the internet.

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    The question isn't about observing it happening but rather a result of someone saying that they have done this.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:58
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    @JoeW Ah - the question didn't explicitly say that and I assumed it not to be the case. Anyway, that seems very much like an edge case; I doubt you'll ever see anyone admit to that conduct again.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 13:16
  • If you downvote > leave the page > come back (I use the 2 side buttons on my mouse for this) > and then check the score again, nothing changed which results in people tapping the downvote button again thinking they did not vote. This could also be a potential case
    – Tom
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 13:22
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    @Tomm Indeed. Or maybe the voter clicked the button lots of times because they enjoy seeing it change color. Humans are difficult-to-understand creatures with diverse minds and motivations; when you force a large set of humans into each picking one option from a small set of possible actions, you can bet they'll make their choices based on every motivating factor you could think of and then a bunch more besides.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 13:30
  • Very well said, could not have done it better.
    – Tom
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 13:31
-7

Just because you think a post is worthy of a downvote doesn't mean that everyone else will agree with you.

Undoing your downvote and then re-downvoting specifically to make the new user lose reputation accomplishes no real goal. Leave the question for other users to decide whether it is an appropriate question for the site. If others on the site agree with you that its a bad question then the user will lose that reputation eventually anyways.

This is a community-driven site and you are trying to abuse the downvote system on users with 1 reputation (when asking the question) to push your own judgement of their question ahead of what the community in general believes. Whether its a pity upvote or not- you shouldn't be strategically voting on questions assuming such things. Downvote and move on- don't downvote and stalk the question making sure the new user gains as little rep as possible because you think its a bad question.

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    How exactly is it "abuse"? The most rep you as an individual can actually affect on an individual user on a single question is -2 rep.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:34
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    I would think this is similar to someone downvoting competing answers where is is not abuse of the system but not something to be encouraged.
    – Joe W
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:39
  • @Makoto Are you saying the system was intentionally designed for high rep users to sit and wait on a question and strategically downvote/redownvote to make sure a new user loses rep? If not- its misusing/abusing the downvote system
    – chevybow
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:44
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    @Makoto but rep is never negative, so if you're a new user with 1 rep, get 1 downvote, then that downvote had 0 effect on your rep. Then you get +1, and now you stand at +5 (unless I'm missing something). Undoing the previous downvote and re-applying it again after the new user earned enough rep to lose any, will bring it to +3. It's "abusive" in the sense that it's leveraging a 5-minute window (assuming no edits to the OP) to turn a no-rep-effect downvote into one that counts for -2, effectively voting twice. Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:45
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    @MathieuGuindon: Your vote only ever counts once. If you undo your vote, then your vote doesn't count by any metric. This is true even if you've cast a vote on a question ten years ago, and you went back and undid it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:46
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    @chevybow: I do want to respond to your concerns but I feel like your statement is a bit too laced with some kind of bias or resentment.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:47
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    @Makoto your downvote on a 1-rep user has no effect. Scores are tallied according to the voting timestamp. If you remove your no-op vote while you're allowed to do so (within 5 minutes), and then later vote down again after the user earned some rep from someone else's upvote, then your 2nd vote now shaves 2 rep off the OP's tiny little reputation score, i.e. you voted twice. Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:50
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    @MathieuGuindon: I'm going to respond to your point about the five-minute window, since that's what I want to take into account here. Suppose then a user decides to "reconsider" their vote based on peer pressure (yes, this is a thing that can happen with voting score). If they undo their vote and then decide that "no, really, this question is bad", then they would be well within their rights to re-cast their downvote. At that point, can you objectively say that they're voting on the user or on the post? The devil is in the details on this one.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:50
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    @MathieuGuindon: I'm not saying that it's toxic. That's a very strong projection of someone's intent with their voting. For every person who might do this just because they want to be sure a user doesn't get rep, there might be others who don't - who genuinely feel like they should reconsider and then upon reconsidering, decide that, after all, the question should be downvoted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 15:56
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    @MathieuGuindon There are always going to be users who don't care at all about our quality standards. There's no reason to cater to their perception in any sense. Not performing curation for fear of being labelled, "toxic" or, "unwelcoming" just does the site a disserve; it's not like we're going to be changing their opinions of the site. I think it's better to focus on ensuring the site is a good repository of knowledge. People will continue to use it, even if they label it toxic.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 16:41
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    @fbueckert the whole point is that if you've already downvoted, then you've already done the "curation" part. Re-doing your downvote just to make sure the new user gets slapped with that -2 is just plain bloody wrong, as your own answer (which I agree with) states. Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:00
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    if this was the other way (someone who is at the 200 rep a day limit, gets upvoted, then I undo my upvote to redo it after they got downvoted and aren't close to the limit anymore), will this be labeled as "Abuse" in the same way? and "toxic" in the same way? Cause.... it's the same behavior after all....
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:44
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    @Mathieu good! I agree. I just know that a lot of our users are quick to scream at actions like that, but only if it's "negative reception". I just wanted to be sure you had the consistency. I agree if it's done to remove rep, it's garbage. Now it's difficult to make a case for "this was the intent" or not.... so that's where I side a bit more with Makoto
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:48
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    @Patrice hence, leaving the voting userID in the timeline being a reasonable fix: if they meant to downvote the post, then no harm done, reinstate the vote, done. If they meant to downvote/punish the user, then a re-voting wouldn't be affecting the timeline, and that wouldn't be happening. Same going up or down. Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 17:53
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    @Mathieu it depends on how complicated it is to implement (something tells me it'll be a LOT more complex than we thought), but it could fix the issue, I agree.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 15, 2019 at 18:04
-25

It's too bad the voting process isn't more granular. If there 3-4 categories available for voting, you could focus on the issues that are more or less important to SO. If a new poster is getting down voted for failing to provide a good enough example on their first post, they aren't going feel welcomed here, especially since there is no feedback loop on a down vote. Having a couple of categories to vote on that are available to mods and high rep. users and a couple that are available to the "general public" would allow a more focused feedback on the real issues of the post.

I also think that any down vote should come with a required comment. I can remember getting down voted on a post and not having a clue what I had done to deserve it.

We should be focused on making SO better and not just scoring each other's posts.

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    Curation has nothing to do with being welcoming. You're conflating two different things. Your second request is also often requested, and is always rejected. Votes are not on you; they are for the post.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 19:49
  • Here's a classic example of what I was talking about. 4 down votes and one comment about why. If I was a new user and this was my first post, I'd feel like you're a bunch of jerks and would go elsewhere. Most people are open to constructive criticism, but simply dinging thier post with no feedback is pretty rude, IMO.
    – Frank Ball
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 20:00
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    Well, that's that conflation I just told you about. You've made no attempt to learn how meta works, or done any research into the systems. The votes are telling you (and, more importantly, future readers) that this post is disagreed with (here on Meta), and on Main, that this post wouldn't be worth reading. The votes are not for you. It feels awful unwelcome for us, too, to continually get told we're jerks by people who don't understand the system.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 20:03
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    "Most people are open to constructive criticism" I find it a very rare trait. You, for example, were given constructive criticism, and responded to it unconstructively, right here in this post. Demanding people give you even more feedback, when you're ignoring the feedback you're getting (or worse, attacking those people for giving it) doesn't support your case very well.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 20:04
  • fbuekert, I know what you're saying, but we're looking at this from the inside out. WE know that voting is about the post, but the new user (and some older users) don't have that perspective. They see that came to a place with a great rep. for helping people and the first thing that happens is that they get a down vote and have no idea why. How do you think that makes them feel about SO?
    – Frank Ball
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 20:04
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    I don't care how that makes them feel; we're curating the site. If someone tracks in mud into a museum, and walks right past the, "No muddy shoes" sign, does the janitor care about the person doing the tracking? No. You clean it up. We aren't being jerks about it; we're not insulting you, or attacking you. In fact, I'm explaining to you why you're wrong, and trying to educate you on how things work. That's the polar opposite of being a jerk. I'm pointing you at the sign that says not to wear muddy shoes.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 20:05
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    @FrankBall: While some of your points are already established - you can search Meta for why suggestions on mandatory commenting on downvotes are shot down - I want to share with you that a downvote doesn't just magically appear. 997 times out of 1000, there is a justifiable reason for them. This curation system is a two-way street; good questions or answers (as we see them) will be upvoted, and bad questions or answers (as we see them) will be downvoted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 16, 2019 at 20:51
  • I'm not calling anyone a jerk, I made comment that simply down voting a post with no explanation of why would make a new person think that the people here are jerks. Curation is not just cleaning up the mud, it's a process of trying to make sure people understand why tracking mud in is wrong. If all you're doing is sweeping up, then you're helping to perpetuate the problem by not educating people when they do something wrong. I've been a mod on multiple discussion forums and the first thing you do when someone crosses a line is make sure that they understand what it was that they did wrong.
    – Frank Ball
    Commented Apr 17, 2019 at 14:13
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    The problem with that, Frank, is that there thousands, if not tens of thousands, more people than there are janitors. We literally cannot tell everyone to read the sign, or educate them personally. That's why the signs exist; so that users can educate themselves without needing someone to sit them down and tell them what they did wrong. Users have to be able to exhibit some modicum of effort on their own behalf; the system can't work without that. Eventually, those users will get banned without that effort, because we just can't allow them to continually track in mud over and over.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 17, 2019 at 14:39
  • We need robots to vote Commented Apr 17, 2019 at 17:06
  • Nah ... we already have robots in the Review queues. :-)
    – Stephen C
    Commented Apr 18, 2019 at 2:52
  • Voting is anonymous for a reason. It prevents noise and clutter and needless serial (revenge) downvoting. Hover your mouse over the down voting arrow, and read the popup hint, which tells you why the post was worthy of being downvoted. Voting serves a purpose, and all the touchy-feely "Lets make the world feel welcome here" doesn't mean we have to allow low-quality garbage to remain here. If we do, we might as well just close the place down and let one of those other crappy Q&A sites collect the clutter instead.
    – Ken White
    Commented Apr 18, 2019 at 15:09

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