52

I have expended all my votes on the usual avalanche of terrible questions posted on the C++ tag on Sunday. Now it seems I can't upvote the very few good questions on that tag. Can we, (and I know this is a dupe), increase the number of votes available on Sunday? Or somehow dissociate up and downvotes?

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    Et ceterum censeo: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/375579/… Commented Nov 4, 2018 at 23:59
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    On the subject of Sundays, cf. Raise the limits on down/close votes at weekends, (and especially Sundays)
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:07
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    @duplode Yeah, that was the dupe I was referring to, which had no response from The Powers That Be. Anyway, my proposal - different pools for up and down, is a little more modest, and might be seen as more "welcoming".
    – user2100815
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:09
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    Also related on MSE: meta.stackexchange.com/q/28314/165483
    – Samuel Liew Mod
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:20
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    @Samuel I am fine with voting limits, but the problem is there are a huge number of questions that need downvoting, and a small number that need upvoting.
    – user2100815
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:22
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    We definitely need more powers to mow our lawns properly and neat (at least seasonally). I am a friend of the short cut grass! Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:22
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    @NeilButterworth this is the official response on the 40 votes, I'm not sure if they will reconsider reviewing this quota meta.stackexchange.com/a/109018/165483. Anyway, perhaps could I suggest finding those few good posts to upvote first before hitting the review queues?
    – Samuel Liew Mod
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:27
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    @Samuel I have never used a "review queue" - I don't even understand their purpose. All my down/up votes are on the C++ tag, on which I have been a regular (and at one time the top rep, though not with this ID) for years. It's a problem.
    – user2100815
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:30
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    @Samuel You seem to be a javascript programmer and so cannot probably understand the amount of very, very poor questions that get posted on the C++ tag. The purpose of SO is to have high-quality questions and answers. To do that we need to be able to downvote "do my homework" and upvote interesting technical questions.
    – user2100815
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 0:44
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    @NeilButterworth Have you ever seen JavaScript? I'm sure there are plenty of very poor questions there too.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 2:41
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    Can't you just stop when you get the blue "You have 5 votes left today"? (And reserve the last 5 for upvotes?) Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 7:23
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    Having seen how you vote, consider to not vote on questions you don't know the answer to. You'll surely have plenty left at the end of the day. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 8:30
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    Sunday on Stack, Happy Days, The weekend comes, my cycle hums. Ready to downvote with you.. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 8:50
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    Why don't you just save your votes for posts that you know will stick around for a while? Questions that will get closed/deleted in minutes don't need a downvote if your conscious of running out of votes Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 10:00
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    @NeilButterworth I'm a C++ programmer primarily, Javascript has far worse questions that are posted far more often. I don't envy the position Javascript tag curators deal with.
    – Krupip
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 14:57

5 Answers 5

35

I'd even go further and demand losing those silly restrictions regarding a limited contingent of up-/down and close votes for a certain level of trusted users at all.

I've already posted a feature request and discussion recently addressing this problem.

There's a very small group of users who play the janitor for certain major tags like , , , , etc.

At least seasonally (new semester starts) we're overwhelmed with VLQ and basic questions at those tags. It is hard to manage on-topicality of all those questions with the current limitations. Not to mention all those users who are more eager to gain reputation in answering those VLQ questions instead of closing and deleting them.

We are few, but keeping our lawns clean and shortcut needs more powers given to us. It was stated a lot of time that this wouldn't have a significant effect, but if it doesn't hurt why bother?

At least it would make me less frustrated when working on the site, and I believe that would apply for other companions as well. If no other benefit is noticed, then this could be seen as one.

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    About your opening paragraph; that might still lead to some going off like cowboys or like blind dogs in a meathouse. I'd go more like maybe like a 25%-50% increase in votes, possibly higher. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 3:24
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    This would be somehow the same as for flags (which is good IMO), the more flags you raised in the past(appropriately), the more flags you can raise. Here the suggestion is, the more rep you have, the more votes you can raise. Maybe up to a cap, which should be much higher than it currently is.
    – Pac0
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 10:08
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    I like how you describe the tags as "your lawn". You're basically calling central park your lawn though, when you talk about tags such as Java, javascript and C++. You need a really big broom to keep that area clean with only a handful of people. At what point do you burn out role-playing as the freelance janitor? Or collapse under the weight of the new Sweep-o-Matic 9000 that Stack Overflow gave you per your request for an even bigger broom?
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 13:34
  • The only time I kept on running out of stuff was during burninates which are explicitly lawns that are about to not exist. I suppose we could override-grant gold badges in tags being destroyed but we'd need stackexchange development help for that. @Gimby good point.
    – Joshua
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 18:49
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    @fun: I don't see how a quota would help reduce the likeliness of "some going off like cowboys" either. Worse still, that comment voices a fundamental distrust in users of this community. I see that your top tag is PHP, so that distrust may even be justified. In context of this Q&A, though, I have no reason to distrust the author of this answer or the OP to do the Right Thing. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:01
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    @fun Also keep in mind that I still can only cast a single DV and close vote for a particular question. Your metaphor of blind dogs in the meathouse fails a bit regarding that. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:09
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    @Gimby It's my lawn, and I am mowing here daily. The danger I'll get exhausted doing so is low. Especially since I am no longer start to engage in comments for my actions. It goes sideways while comfortably watching TV. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:11
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    @IInspectable Just because some have higher rep does not "not make them" possible cowboys. Even if there was a raise given to those such as I, I wouldn't abuse it where some might. We don't know them from Adam as it were. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:17
13

Yes, I believe that would be a good addition to the system. Here's an example:

I go out reviewing with my downers at the ready, and the mighty southern arrow takes its toll upon many questions.

I then go answering, and have multiple questions which are worthy of a northern gun. However, as the voters are out of ammunition, this is not possible, and I cannot show people that their question is good aside from a comment (which is not very rewarding).

If we had the same amount of votes for both up and downvotes, but they were not interconnected, then people like me (and people like you) would all be happy that our views upon the questions have been received by posters.

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    'I cannot show people that their question is good aside from a comment (which is not very rewarding).' - and depending on how it is written will probably get flagged for removal as 'no longer needed'.
    – Script47
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 10:15
  • Yes that's the other obvious problem Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 10:31
9

Maybe it's time for a perspective shift?

The wording you use in describing these questions is loaded.

I have expended all my votes on the usual avalanche of terrible questions posted on the C++ tag on Sunday. Now it seems I can't upvote the very few good questions on that tag.

Immediately what juts out at me: are you also voting to close those questions which are off-topic?

But more significantly, you're still kind of acting alone in all of this (as I alluded to in another answer). It's rough to get poor questions but it's even rougher to work them on your own, so I would strongly encourage you...don't...until you can at least be assured somewhat that others are going to be around to help curate content. As an FYI - the weekends are the lowest traffic times on the site, starting on Friday GMT and lasting into Sunday GMT.

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    He's not alone! And there are more people having the same PITA. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:38
  • Sure @πάνταῥεῖ, but how would more votes actually address the problem that there are fewer people willing to moderate content? More pointedly, how would more votes ensure that the person casting those votes was still remaining fair with their votes and not abusing the privilege?
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:40
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    We're trusted already. Don't worry about abuse. The abuse comes from the questioners, not those people who struggle to keep their tag lawns clean. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:42
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    "As an FYI - the weekends are the lowest traffic times on the site, starting on Friday GMT and lasting into Sunday GMT." I cannot confirm that by experience. It's just like the opposite with semester starting seasons and all the homework is due for monday. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:52
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    @πάνταῥεῖ: I'm looking at the site statistics for that information.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:53
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    You probably missed to have some appropriate filters. I cannot confirm that due to my daily experience watching the c++ tag. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:55
  • "the weekends are the lowest traffic times on the site" -- it would be interesting to measure the [Σ perceived question quality] / [question traffic] ratio for week-days vs weekends. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 1:59
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    @Makoto And yes, at least I am used to "decorate" almost every close vote of mine with a downvote. The rare cases I don't are single handed closed duplicates, or questions asking for 3rd party resources. Everything else is mostly deserving a DV because of poor research beforehand. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 2:00
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    @Hover I believe for Java that experience is quite similar. Machiavity could tell something about the PHP tag. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 2:01
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    @Makoto: "the weekends are the lowest traffic times on the site" How is "traffic" defined in this case? Number of visitors or number of questions asked? Also, have you considered that the lower traffic is why this problem seems to exist? That is, there are fewer curators around to help with the cleanup, so it appears that there is more garbage. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 3:24
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    @NicolBolas: That's kind of my point. Anecdotally there's nothing out there to suggest that more votes will mean less garbage posts. Conversely, less curators around means that votes have a higher probability of being misused. I don't disagree that there's a problem but I have zero confidence that more votes will solve it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 3:37
  • @πάνταῥεῖ The PHP tag is quite similar. Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 17:58
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    @πάνταῥεῖ Actually the potential for abuse rises with increased trust and access, not the other way around.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:39
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    @Makoto How would have more votes increase the risk of a person becoming unfair or the risk of abuse? More votes would not mean an ability to double-down-vote a question, but simply to be a user moderator for more questions.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:40
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    @TylerH: The increased amount of votes doesn't come with an increased amount of oversight. If the number were to rise to, say, 60 or 80, now, it becomes a lot harder to identify whether or not these votes were being used to target a specific person, type of question, or if they were being applied legitimately. At this point I'd really like to see someone try to convince me otherwise that more voting would lead to better moderation or less bad posts...I'm just not seeing it right now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:44
6

I was in the same situation on Friday/Saturday this weekend - I am mainly reading, voting and answering in the , , and questions, and boah, we also had more than the normal share of VLQ questions lately.

I even set comments on Friday with something akin to "Would upvote because ... but out of votes today" and upvoted the next day + removed that comment (as a bad workaround to get back to this question using my history).

On Sunday I got more selective and provided fewer downvotes to have some for later in the evening. I also refrained from downvoting -5 even further as it's kind of obvious that's a bad one - but where do I draw the line? Should I still downvote a -2 / -3 / -4 to curate or not ...

I think splitting the count between upvotes and downvotes is a formidable suggestion - I do not mind the limit as is, but not being able to upvote when a gem (or even a OP with modicum of good intentions behind it comes by) is disheartening.

(And yes - I am also closevoting and mostly commenting/pointing out what lacks to make the post better.)

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  • @PeterMortensen - thx for the reading links :) it's quite a read Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 20:53
-12

While I don't see any harm in disconnecting them, I don't see any big benefit either.

First, I agree with your analysis. There are far more questions that deserves a down vote compared to an up vote. But I would also say that a vast majority of those questions that should be downvoted also deserves a close vote. And isn't it enough to close vote? Afterall, quite often when a question is ready to be reopened, it does no longer deserve the down vote either.

Furthermore, if these two were disconnected I have a pretty strong feeling that people would start complaining about not being able to use their up votes for the questions that deserves down votes.

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    If there's no harm, why bother about the possible benefits? Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 2:03
  • @πάνταῥεῖ Because there's a cost to every request. You can actually probably file that under "harm" as dev hours spent is a negative modifier to the total system balance.
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:42
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    @Broman "Isn't it enough to close vote?" Not always. Close votes are often invisible to the people asking the question (unless their rep is high enough). They could also receive 4 close votes and never get a 5th before the close votes start aging away, so there's a risk of no impact there. Likewise, questions still appear on the front page/time line until they are sufficiently negatively-scored. A terrible question at 0 score may take a while to get closed, while staying on the front page garnering attention, answers, and potentially answer upvotes, too (the last two can hinder the Roomba).
    – TylerH
    Commented Nov 5, 2018 at 19:47

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