95

So, there was a question asked. I offered some comments to try to help the OP. They definitely weren't answers but were suggestions on different approaches they might want to take.

I'm deliberately not linking the question.

Their feedback on my comments were that they were "verbal diarrhea" (flagged, dealt with) and that most of the comments were from "assholes" (flagged, dealt with).

But I'm still irked by one remaining comment that states I "clearly don't understand SQL Server". By most measures I'm one of the highest rated members within this tag. I know I should just let it lie.

But would I be wrong to flag that comment as "unwelcoming"? It certainly makes me want to interact with that user less until their combined ignorance/arrogance is adjusted.

20
  • 39
    Get it closed and deleted. I assume that the OP is suspended or banned. Don't want such users on the site at all, ever. Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:25
  • 90
    'verbal diarrhoea', 'assholes' and meanwhile, a massive amount of meta hot air is being blown about what salutations should be used to micro-optimize 'welcoming'. This is why I feel ill every time I see 'Welcome to SO!' :( Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:30
  • 28
    You could have flagged that comment for deletion. Any flag would be fine, given the context. That was my bad, I missed that when I was dealing with the other flagged comments. The OPs behaviour was so bad I went straight into suspending them, so missed the comment. It's perfectly reasonable to be irked by comments like that.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 1:24
  • 19
    @MartinJames new users to the site who come on and kick people around get dealt with. I'm inclined to suspend first with this type of person, rather than give a warning. I like to let people know we have a zero tolerance for this kind of abuse. Particularly when our long term users are trying to help. It's like what bus of entitlement did you just get off?
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 1:26
  • 1
    @MartinJames it's closed. I didn't delete it, as it's closed as a dupe and dupe's can be good sign posts for search engines.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 1:28
  • 9
    @MartinJames: I'm not sure I understand your point. Those comments were obviously unacceptable and were quickly expunged, in accord with our rules. Nobody is suggesting that the behavior is OK or acceptable. By contrast, subtle unwelcomingness gets defended by some on MSO. So which needs to be called out more: the obvious bad stuff, or the bad stuff that people hide behind plausible deniability? Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 3:33
  • 19
    You clearly don't understand that "you clearly don't understand" comments are unwelcoming...
    – user541686
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 3:47
  • 3
    I would prefer to say that "You're missing the point of how X was meant to work". Using a tone like "I think you misunderstood, or correct me if I'm wrong" also is quite constructive in my opinion. It's how to you say it.
    – Vik
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 4:59
  • 3
    @Vik "You're missing the point ..." assumes the fault is with the other person, so I'm still not in favor of that wording. The other example is great! Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 7:03
  • 1
    @mark. Sorry. I didn't mean that Damien made the comment. Just suggesting some alternatives that said commenter could use. I'll edit my comment. I meant "you" as the general you, not aimed at Damien at all.
    – Vik
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 8:55
  • 21
    This site is becoming a laughing stock
    – Dexygen
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 14:30
  • 10
    @GeorgeJempty On what facts do you base this statement?
    – Kami Kaze
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 14:46
  • 17
    @KamiKaze Opinions aren't necessarily based on facts. But every time I turn around somebody is going overboard with this new "Be Nice" BS
    – Dexygen
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 14:48
  • 11
    @GeorgeJempty I see where you are coming from but this thread seems a very bad example for this as this was quite clearly out of line of any good manners.
    – Kami Kaze
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 14:50
  • 1
    @Shepmaster I did not want to make their behaviour the centre of attention.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 18:27

6 Answers 6

103

Comments disparaging someone's background like this are almost always unacceptable. A comment like

You clearly don't know how SQL Server works then.

isn't going to lead to a constructive discussion.

I deleted that comment. You'll notice that the user involved was suspended soon after you flagged their original comments, because those were way over the line and needed to stop. They clearly didn't intend this comment to be constructive, given those others.

10
  • I feel bad for separately flagging (more work for the mods) in the first place on the two clearly abusive comments. But I would like general guidance here. I.e is "not welcoming" the right flag to raise on such comments in future? Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:35
  • 29
    @Damien_The_Unbeliever - That wasn't any more work for us, because they all got grouped together. In fact, the multiple flags caused it to rise up the queue and be dealt with earlier. When in doubt, it helps to call out the specific comments causing problems in a thread so we can clean up all the insults.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:38
  • 2
    So, just to check (in case you missed my edit), Abusive (verbal diarrhoea), Abusive (assholes) and unwelcoming (you clearly don't know) as three separate flags would be preferred? Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:40
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    @Damien_The_Unbeliever - Sure, that'd work just fine. One thing to keep in mind is that certain obscenities lead to immediate comment deletion without moderators even being involved. This can hide really abusive behavior from us, and is something that I've complained about. If someone's really going off, it might also help to leave a custom flag on the main post so that we know to stop the user. We'll get an auto-warning if enough comments are deleted, but a heads-up can't hurt.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 19:47
  • 4
    @Damien_The_Unbeliever I agree with Brad, it's not extra work and I feel bad I missed that comment. Feel free to flag anything you see that makes you feel uncomfortable or irked. For me the (you clearly don't know) pretty much any flag would work in that context given how abusive the others were. If in doubt go one lower than the one you are doubtful of. e.g. if you're not sure if it's abusive, flag unwelcome. If you're not sure it's unwelcoming, flag no longer needed. The custom mod flag on a comment is also fine when you're unsure. It gives us a picture of why you're flagging.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 1:31
  • 3
    The time one comment flag is helpful is for an entire comment thread clean up. A custom flag asking for such it probably quicker than individual flags. However it's really not much of an issue either way. Comments are easily cleaned up.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 1:33
  • 3
    Not sure where this person came from, but "verbal diarrhoea" can just mean "going on and on" rather than a statement about the content where I come from (I've been known to accuse my son of verbal diarrhoea after ten minutes of listening to him talk about Minecraft!) This person was clearly out of line, I'm not questioning that. I just wanted to add what may be cultural context.
    – Xaraxia
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 5:14
  • 6
    @Xaraxia - I'm pretty sure that there's no context in which "...thanks for your verbal diarrhoea though. Clear evidence of your lack of understanding and solving simple issues" is ever appropriate to say to someone here. It's been my experience that referring to bodily functions in comments is usually not the best way to phrase things, particularly when referring to the behavior of someone else.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 12:39
  • Original question wasn't linked, so I hadn't seen it. Worded like that I completely agree with you, Brad - that wasn't even remotely appropriate.
    – Xaraxia
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 6:15
  • This answer is not very useful because it doesn't explain what an acceptable way of making the point is. Confusion about the technology is an extremely common problem. (Yes, the situation is probably reversed here, but it's common nonetheless.) How should it be addressed?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 16:26
12

I see two problems.

One is the unwelcoming comment.

The second is that it irks you.

When a stranger on the internet assess you, they're only using a few bits of information - the characters and pixels on their screen that represent you.

Additionally, they have a mental model of the world, and they're fitting those bits into their mental model.

Take anything anyone says with a grain of salt.

We don't know you. I don't know you.

People are wrong all the time. I'm wrong all the time.

From the sound of it, that person was in a bad mood. They were taking it out on you. Their negativity had nothing to do with you. People go through incredibly stressful situations all the time. I bet they were going through something super rough. The best thing to do is be kind to them. Hopefully that can counter some of the negativity that surrounds them. Also, as you pointed out, help them reduce their arrogance and ignorance, if possible.

You've clearly helped a ton of people on SO. Even if you stopped today, people will continue to benefit from your contributions. Thank you for what you've done - and keep trucking forward!

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  • 2
    I agree. Dutch proverb: "Tall trees catch much wind." In this case: the more active you are on SO (or any social media), the more susceptible you are to abuse. It's like dealing with high school children: they tend to take out their frustrations on their teachers, on their parents. Show them where they crossed the line, and try not to take it personal. Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 18:23
3

Most of us seem to agree the "you clearly don't understand" comment was worth flagging, according to the current policy. If you're asking whether it's more accurate to call it "abusive" versus "unwelcoming", I would err on the less severe side and call that one unwelcoming.

However, I would put both the "verbal diarrhoea" and "assholes" comments in the abusive category. (So I agree with all three of your choices in your response to Brad Larson.)

It so happens that for now, both of those flags ultimately wind up in the same bucket (CoC violation), but I can appreciate the attempt to be as precise as possible. Maybe at some point in the future the distinction will have some functional significance.

3

I've received comments like "You clearly don't understand X" before on this site. While it wasn't particularly welcoming or respectful, the far less pleasant part was how accurate it was. I was completely missing the point of something (shaders, GLSL) and was operating under some massive misconceptions. It was entirely my fault for glazing over the parts I didn't understand in my search for the answer. While a comment like that does little to explain the answer, I'm not comfortable with comments being removed if they are factually accurate.

Just because it's a pattern that can easily be part of a verbally abusive rant, by itself it may not be. I'm not talking about this specific situation, context matters.

4
  • the tone is what's objectionable here. A user shouldn't need to already be an expert in order to interact with the community. Just because Damien happens to be well versed in SQL isn't the bar we want to use.
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 19:22
  • There is a massive range of abilities between being an expert and "clearly not understanding" something. When someone comes here and asks the programming equivalent of "I can't figure out how to insert nails with this saw?", then this is an appropriate reply. There's "wrong" and then there's "so wrong that you need to stop and rethink things."
    – gunfulker
    Commented Aug 18, 2018 at 13:18
  • You clearly don't understand how 'tone' works /s
    – KyleMit StaffMod
    Commented Aug 18, 2018 at 17:33
  • Would you have the moderators tone police comments? You want a statement to be moderated that (in some situations) addresses the core problem the questioner has. The reason you give is 'tone'. The only thing potentially insulted in that sentence is someone's understanding of a specific topic, on a platform where people come because they don't have a complete understanding of a specific topic. I don't want moderators to tone police, if that's where we disagree, I guess we're done.
    – gunfulker
    Commented Aug 19, 2018 at 15:55
-1

But I'm still irked by one remaining comment that states I "clearly don't understand SQL Server". By most measures I'm one of the highest rated members within this tag. I know I should just let it lie.

But would I be wrong to flag that comment as "unwelcoming"? It certainly makes me want to interact with that user less until their combined ignorance/arrogance is adjusted.

It's not a question of which of you knows more, or which is correct about a particular point, it's about addressing a disagreement or providing constructive criticism in a polite manner.

The owners of the site and the Code of Conduct do not prefer that you let it go, but like voting it's up to you to do or do not.

You would probably want to choose the second flag: "It's unfriendly or unkind - See: Code of Conduct" - but it's up to you, I don't see "Unwelcoming" as one of the choices.

Would you be "wrong" to flag it for moderator intervention and write a comment that you feel that the comment is unwelcoming, that is up to the moderator; I wouldn't expect a 'helpful flag' credit when there's a choice such as the one I mentioned, which might earn a 'helpful flag' credit. Perhaps one of us gets a beta version with different choices of flags.

Always try to choose a 'default choice' when possible so they can be tallied to determine which is the most useful - custom messages fall into another category and would need to be triaged to determine if they fit one of the existing flags, that might not be done and the useful statistics lost.

Depending on the experience of the offending party perhaps they should know better or maybe they are used to conversing elsewhere, when there's a lot of heat in a comment section it may be locked until people can cool down.

If you see something that violates the Code of Conduct and you wish to report it feel encouraged to do so, correct and accurate reports are most helpful; borderline complaints are accepted.

Consider that millions can see what you write and only a handful are a problem, so it's a very small percentage; but not what we need, it contributes nothing as an answer or clairification request.

-2

Sometimes the way you express a valid opinion will make it acceptable or unacceptable.

What about?: I think you are not understanding X

That clearly states it is your opinion and can be rebutted without having to feel offended.

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