27

I flagged this answer (which was deleted after I posted this, meta effect I presume?) as spam, and I'm pretty confident it is - I've seen three such posts from that account in the Late Answers queue over the last hour or so (and the first two were deleted after I flagged them) with no other non-deleted answers on their account, it's a brand new library so they're clearly affiliated with it, and there's no disclosure of affiliation, but this one was declined as "a moderator reviewed your flag, but found no evidence to support it."

Are spam flags not always reviewed thoroughly? Should I have used a custom mod flag here, and if so how can I judge when that's necessary? Is there anything else I can do or should have done?

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  • 1
    I just flagged it a few minutes ago, and mine was marked disputed. Commented Jul 25, 2018 at 23:54
  • @RobertColumbia Looks like it's deleted now, at least. Commented Jul 25, 2018 at 23:55
  • 13
    I disputed both the flags, to remove the decline (cc @RobertColumbia). If you see a user spamming one library multiple times, it's always better to use the custom flag and explain it. We will do a few more procedures along with just deleting the spammed answer.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2018 at 23:57
  • Thanks @BhargavRao, I'll keep that in mind next time. Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 0:31
  • 18
    From the perspective of the user casting flags, this sort of thing discourages future flagging. Surely you don't want that. Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 4:41
  • 20
    @BhargavRao: Wait what? if you see a user spamming a library, then a spam flag is not the preferred flag?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 6:28
  • 6
    @Cerbrus if you see a user posting multiple answers with the same library, then a custom flag is a preferred flag.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 6:34
  • 8
    Why? It's spam... And can't spam flags then be marked "helpful", instead of "disputed"?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 6:42
  • 5
    @BhargavRao is it Spam or is it not Spam? Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 9:37
  • 2
    I consider spam and overt self-promotion as separate @RobertColumbia, but by the definition, it is spam.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 9:39
  • 15
    If a user has spent a lot of time developing stuff, and provides a good answer, we shouldn't be doing petty politics and destroy them just because they forgot to add a bold disclaimer that they are the author (and these are new users who have no idea how the site works). A simple warning should suffice. If we go by the exact definition, we probably should end up spam flaggingall of Guido's python answers. But turns out that we don't do that, just coz python's famous... Sadly that's how the world works, be famous, else you won't survive
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 9:44
  • 9
    This makes me uncomfortable: "but by the definition, it is spam." coupled with the author of the comment declining/disputing the "spam" flags. I'm with @DavidHeffernan and have very little desire to help with flags these days. Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 12:49
  • 7
    Uh, Oh! So, that's the confusion, @Richard. Thanks for explaining. So, the flags were declined at the start, which was wrong (and declined flags have penalties to the OP). In order to prevent that, I had to clear the flags which implies to dispute them so that the OP won't have the declined flag. We can't clear individual flags (as in dispute the OPs declined one, and mark Robert's flag as helpful). Therefore, in order to help the OP and agree with him that it was spam, I had to mark his flag as disputed (we can't change the declined flag status to helpful). Hope this clears your confusion
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 14:50
  • 2
    @BhargavRao - Thanks yes that was totally my (and possibly others') confusion. To me, declining a flag means it is (in this case) not spam. And I thought disputing a flag means that someone is disagreeing that it is spam. In other words, basically the same......... If I understand you correctly, we have a (broken?) state engine, where you can't ever get back to "Yes, sir, you are correct that this is spam. Thank you for your help." Instead, once we've gotten to a negative state, the best we can hope for (even if totally right) is another negative state. Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 8:16
  • 2
    @RichardLeMesurier, disputed isn't negative, it's neutral, so that can stay as it is.Only declined is the negative one.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 14:04

2 Answers 2

23

There's a lot of confusion in the comments about unacceptable spam (delete it) vs bad spam (which should be treated like this). Let's back this up for a second and talk about the difference. Spam and rude are red flags for a reason. Other flags must be sustained by review first, but it is possible to red-flag a post to the point that Community will special nuke it (hides the content except from the history view) and applies a -100 penalty to the user who posted it.

Because of the steep penalty, we have to be careful to consider what type of spam it is. By definition this user is spamming (multiple posts with the same answer is not acceptable), but we also need to consider another factor: Is there a legitimate attempt to answer the question?

Tim Post said he'd rewrite the spam flag as such

This is in no way an attempt to contribute a real, good-faith question or answer to the site; it's spam that discloses no affiliation and adds no value. This post should be removed from the site and the author should be subject to an administrative penalty, or possibly removed entirely.

Now, let's look at the answer

enter image description here

There's two major strikes against this being bad spam

  1. It links to a legit site with a real JS library (and no apparent affiliation with the user)
  2. It looks like it's trying to answer the question with code that uses the library

So, at worst, this should have been mod flagged for being a generic "Me too" answer on a canonical (there's a couple of other "Use this library" answers that have been deleted for that reason).

If you're ever not sure, feel free to ask in SOCVR or Charcoal, where we regularly see things to flag as spam/rude.

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  • 6
    "Because of the steep penalty, we have to be careful to consider what type of spam it is." Maybe the user should be careful to consider what effect spamming will have. That example certainly shouldn't be flagged "NAA", because it is an attempt at answering.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 13:43
  • 2
    @Cerbrus True. Removed the NAA part
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 13:44
  • 5
    Yeah, we need to change the flag text. Not just for spam, but for all of them. The users aren't flagging it for the right reason, thanks to the text, and get declined flags. Perhaps we should rename "declined" to something more welcoming, like "vewy sowwy, I don't see how this flag holds (´。• ᵕ •。`) ♡"
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 16:34
  • @BhargavRao It's possible for moderators to "clear" spam flags (marking them as disputed) instead of declining them, so as to take care of borderline cases like these. Why wasn't this used here?
    – gparyani
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 0:06
  • 1
    @gparyani, clearing flags disputes them, which is what was done.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 0:07
  • There's two major strikes against this being bad spam Do you mean "there two strikes against (this post) which qualifies it as it bad spam" or do you mean "there's two strikes against (the concept 'this post is bad spam')"? Commented Jul 28, 2018 at 15:46
  • I mean it's not bad spam
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 28, 2018 at 20:59
21

I think when raising and discussing spam flags, we should be less held up with the name of the flag and with what the word "spam" means (which appears to be a never ending discussion), but focus more on what the flag actually does.

On this network, the spam flag is a nuke. You all know its effects (IP ban, rep penalty, posts becoming audits, ...), and should ask yourself: is this really the appropriate treatment for the post in front of me?

In this particular case, a user with a six year old account with other legit posts promoted their library in several answers; from what I can tell on relevant questions too. I find it reasonable to read that as an honest attempt to be helpful.

Now of course what they did was misguided. We do not appreciate reposting identical answers or promoting libraries, especially without disclosing affiliation. But I do not think that nuking the posts with a spam flag is appropriate. Instead, the user should be educated and the posts deleted (but not nuked!). So a custom flag would have been more appropriate, regardless of whether you like to call the posts spam or not.

TL;DR: I think we should appreciate the power and effects of the spam flags. Save your nukes for "Make $$$ fast" and friends and try to assume good faith otherwise. Use detailed custom flags to let a moderator handle the situation in a more appropriate way.

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  • 1
    Do mods have the ability to nuke when a post has been custom flagged? So then, we should flag with custom flags when posts are borderline and let the mod decide the outcome. Am I understanding that correctly? Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 13:45
  • 3
    @LuxClaridge I'm fairly certain mods can still hand out any punishment they deem fit. I mean, they can even destroy entire accounts. So yes, I would say that if you can reasonably read the post as an attempt to be helpful, you probably should not spam flag. Especially if the author is not clearly a spam account.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 13:48
  • 1
    @LuxClaridge Mods don't even necessarily need a flag to take action. If they see something directly they can (and do) take action against it. Mod flags are simply a way to put their eyes on something you think needs their help
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 13:53
  • @Machavity I knew that they don't need a flag. Just wondering how flags should be doled out along with how they work in general (it's a new privilege for me) :). Commented Jul 26, 2018 at 14:21
  • 1
    Crom. I had no idea that the spam flag was that lethal. That has to be documented somewhere that I've missed. Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 0:38
  • 1
    @user4581301 In reality, a lot of SO's moderation guidelines are only documented on Meta. The help center, flag texts etc. are not always as helpful as one would hope.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 0:45
  • Sounds to me like the names need to be changed - the flagging system seems broken when you read the sidebar on meta today. I know its probably just noise, but it "seems" broken in many ways. Maybe we need more positive education on meta about how flags actually work, and how they are really helpful despite the many negative posts about them. Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 8:12
  • 2
    @RichardLeMesurier The documentation for much of the moderation process should be improved, but that's a job for the powers that be. In the meantime, I think it's important for us normal users to not take declines too hard. Check if you can see your (or the mod's) mistake; if you don't, go looking for whatever obscure rule you might have broken or ask on Meta, follow it in the future and go on with your business. Everyone who flags on a non-trivial scale gets a decline once in a while, don't worry too much about it. In the end, you are helping.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 10:20
  • 1
    @BaummitAugen I hear you about don't take it personally. But most of the cleanup tasks on this site just feel like a waste of time these days with audits and rejected flags etc. I don't have the time for these things anymore - so like I said, I stay away from flagging most stuff and generally don't bother with the cleanup queues either. (I guess that makes me "one of those") Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 13:50
  • 4
    @RichardLeMesurier SO is not a job, so when you are not having fun, taking a step back makes perfect sense. I personally don't have an issue with declined flags and failed audits because both happens ultra rarely anyway (which might come with experience and meta minutiae), but SO is not supposed to be a chore.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 27, 2018 at 14:47

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