18

Abstract Question

A question was asked for a specific language (Kotlin).

An answer exists for a different language (Java).

The answer for the Java post applies to the question tagged Kotlin.

Would it be fair to VTC the question as a duplicate if the language tags don't match, but the duplicate answer still applies?


Concrete Question (Example)

Someone posts a question asking about NullPointerException in Kotlin.

Would it be justifiable to VTC as a duplicate using:

Or would this call for a new post directed specifically towards Kotlin, since the linked post is for Java?


Specific Situation

I recently voted to close as duplicate:

The duplicate I used was:

Apparently the question I VTCed was closed. Soon after, someone reopened it instantly. They commented:

I've reopened the question since it asks about Kotlin, not Java. While Kotlin and Java are similar in this aspect, Kotlin instance construction is not equivalent to that in Java (at least it is expressed in different constructs)

The answer in the duplicate was applicable. The OP asked if what they were doing was a flawed design, and why their IDE was giving a warning (why their design caused a warning).

Although this prevents finer details (such as work-arounds for that specific language), if these details aren't requested by the OP, shouldn't the duplicate for a different language still apply?

The OP commented:

ok, I think the accepted answer explains it pretty well. My question may have been more related to java anyway. It was the warning in kotlin that sparked the question though

It was the user who wrote an answer that decided to re-open the post, as they felt Java posts should not be used to VTC Kotlin posts as duplicates.


What is the standard for this situation?

If we should avoid VTCing as duplicate when the duplicate is for a different language (yet the answer still applies), should I be voting to reopen such posts when I see this occur?

3 Answers 3

26

Answers don't make questions duplicates.

Closing a question as a duplicate of a vaguely-related question because one of its answers happens to answer the "duplicate" in some way is the moral equivalent of a "link-only answer."

Moderation should not require subject-matter expertise. If you're closing as duplicate because "you can find your answer over there," then you're asking mods to resolve disputes by evaluating the technical content of the two posts you've linked.

Most mods are not likely to do that, any more than they're likely to approve your "not an answer" flag if it clearly answers some question.

So if your duplicate closure is contested, and I can't work out why you closed as a duplicate of a question that clearly isn't the same question, reversal of your duplicate closure is the most likely outcome.

But the golden hammer is given to people who do have subject matter expertise. Is there a standard for this? Yes, there is a standard. The standard is that the person wielding the Golden Hammer is expected to use his subject matter expertise to reasonably evaluate whether or not one question duplicates another.

Is that a judgement call? Of course. But it is helped by the fact that we're not trying to match questions to answers found elsewhere, but merely questions to duplicate questions.

19
  • I'll accept that the specific post in question shall remain open to shift focus more towards the question in the abstract: Looking at the NPE example I gave, could you edit some concrete insight on this? Would it be justifiable, or is based on the mod's opinion? If so, are there any standards? This doesn't apply primarily to ranked mods, rather community moderation aswell. What are we expected to do? Thanks for the information you've provided so far. EDIT: The golden hammer is exactly what occured. I'm wondering whether this usage is seen as justifiable, or if it's not quantifiable.
    – Vince
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 0:38
  • 12
    The fundamental standard of moderation is this: Does this action best serve the community? In the specific example you gave, I think you have to ask yourself the question, "would a reasonable person be expected to go to a Java reference to find the answer to his Null Pointer exception in Kotlin?"
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 1:55
  • 7
    So far, every time, duplicates came up, the phrase was “Answers make duplicates, not the questions.” Every. Single. Time. This seemed strange to me at first but perfectly reasonable after some thought. Conversely, your first statement seems wrong to me. Commented May 8, 2018 at 11:51
  • Why is referring the reader to a source where their question is answered bad, just because they thought they had a different question? Commented May 8, 2018 at 11:52
  • 1
    Why is closure as a duplicate any more of a LOA in this case than usually? Commented May 8, 2018 at 11:53
  • 1
    Finally, I see the problem of subject matter expertise, but I do not see how to get reasonable duplicate closures without expertise. To me, the consequent continuation of your answer seems to be just giving up on the duplicate mechanism entirely. Commented May 8, 2018 at 11:55
  • In total: Consider me utterly confused about everything. Commented May 8, 2018 at 11:56
  • 5
    "Answers don't make questions duplicates." I don't agree. The question could be something like "why is OutputFunction() not behaving (lots of stuff about how OutputFunction() is called)", but the actual problem happens to be an array out-of-bounds access. It would then be perfectly correct to close the question as a duplicate to a question about array out-of-bounds access, even though this is not what the original question was about. The correct answer makes it a duplicate, not the question.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 12:33
  • @HermannDöppes: If it were possible to close a question as a dupe of an answer, then the system would already provide for that.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 15:51
  • @RobertHarvey: The “Requires Editing” description in Triage still disagrees with the sensible meaning. As long as even such trivial changes are not made, I consider your argument invalid. Commented May 8, 2018 at 17:51
  • 1
    "Answers don't make questions duplicates." Citation please? As @HermannDöppes said, I've repeated been told (in effect) "If the answers to that question answer this question, VTC as duplicate." Obviously one applies that with reason and judgement (a question with 14 answers, one of which tangentally answers the question at hand, certainly shouldn't be a dupetarget for it), but when the (good) answers directly address the problem at hand, even if expressed differently in the questions, I've always been told: VTC as dupe. If that's wrong, or if it's changed, I want to know. :-) Commented May 9, 2018 at 13:35
  • @HermannDöppes Who have you been talking to? So far, every time the topic of duplicates came up, the phrase I've heard was similar to “Questions can't be duplicates of answers”. Every. Single. Time. Now I probably wouldn't use a question as a duplicate target if the answers are doesn't sufficiently address the question, but then I also wouldn't do so if the question has a bunch of irrelevant details I can't remove or is otherwise "bad", and if this applies, I'd consider closing that question as a duplicate instead - it doesn't make it not a duplicate, it just makes it a bad duplicate. Commented May 9, 2018 at 13:37
  • Related: Does the same answer imply that the questions should be closed as duplicate? @T.J.Crowder (I can't find anything too official explicitly addressing this though) Commented May 9, 2018 at 14:00
  • 1
    @Dukeling: Thanks. I see a lot of both sides there. The reductio ad absurdum in Lyndon White's answer is a perfect example of "...one applies that with reason and judgement..." (the posted reductio ad absurdum answers would also be bad answers; a good answer to either of the posited questions would make it not an answer to the other). Commented May 9, 2018 at 14:09
  • 1
    @T.J.Crowder "This question has been asked before" from the flag dialog. I doubt it gets more authorative than that.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 11:26
15

As a rule of thumb, never use a post from a different language as duplicate. This tends to cause all manner of problems:

  • The OP and any other reader might get confused.
  • The other language may have subtle differences that you are not aware of unless you are an expert of both languages.
  • Either language might be changed in the future and then the linked post may not be relevant any longer, or fails to tell the whole story.

I'm active in the and tags, two languages that are very similar, probably more similar than any other two languages out there. Yet closing one language question as a duplicate to the other frequently creates a complete mess even in when they are so similar. Mostly because of all the tiny, subtle differences, but also because there exist different "de facto standard" ways to solve the same problem in different languages.

(For example, the behavior of null pointers happens to be one such subtle difference between C and C++ and you need fairly deep knowledge of both languages to know all the specifics.)

So please don't duplicate-close across languages.

5
  • 1
    What if the problem is not language specific? (about character encoding or system call or something)
    – user202729
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 12:07
  • 3
    @user202729 Then languages aren't relevant and you have a different situation. (Take the "floating point is inaccurate" FAQ as one such example.) Something like NullPointerException is a language-specific feature.
    – Lundin
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 12:29
  • Language changes are always a problem, not just in this case. Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:15
  • @HermannDöppes Yes, but, if the question is closed, you'd have to reopen it in addition to posting / updating an answer, and if there are many questions closed as a duplicate of the question in another language, that would require updates to each one (as in at least changing the duplicate target) instead of just 1 update. And if the answer of duplicate target changed, it's even worse, because you may not realise that your update is making one or many duplicate closures wrong. Commented May 9, 2018 at 14:19
  • Also, I suspect that most future readers with the same problem will simply ignore answers that aren't specific to the language they're using. Even if the code is almost identical in the two languages it's too much of a hassle to deal with the possible subtle differences.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 12:31
1

Though I agree with Robert Harvey that this particular case is a bad fit for duplicate closure, I'd suggest a slightly different principle to his for why this is so. Robert's principle was:

Moderation should not require subject-matter expertise.

This seems odd in the context of talking about question closure. I think that in reality a lot of closure reasons inevitably do require subject-matter expertise, and that this doesn't make them invalid. That's why we have tag filters in the close vote review queue, and why we don't escalate close flags to mods. Evaluating, for instance, whether some provided code reproduces the error that an asker is asking about (the "Verifiable" part of MCVE) is typically impossible for somebody who has never written in the language and doesn't even know how to compile or run code in it - but I've never seen anyone suggest this makes the MCVE close reason inherently problematic.

Instead, I'd posit two principles about duplicate closure that prohibit this particular duplicate closure. Firstly:

Readers should not need to take the technical expertise of duplicate close-voters on faith.

You tell me that the answer to the Koitlin question is the same as the answer to the Java one. Well, why should I believe you? I'm a pretty skeptical reader, and I've seen plenty of wrong answers on Stack Overflow, so my first instinct is to wonder whether you are, in fact, full of shit.

If you give an answer in which you note, as an aside, that all the relevant constructs and mechanics behave exactly the same in Koitlin as they do in the Java, then the claim can be exposed to voting and critical commentary. You get an opportunity to actually demonstrate the equivalence with code samples I can try out, or by citing relevant documentation. Just closing as a duplicate prevents any of this from happening; you're just asking me to trust you without evidence. If I don't trust you, then even if you're right, I still haven't learned the answer to my question. You may have been right, but you did not persuade me.

Secondly:

The existence of a (real or potential) answer to B that can be used to answer A is not sufficient to make A a duplicate of B; instead, there must be no possible answer to A that is substantively different to all possible answers to B.

The accepted answer at the Koitlin question cites Koitlin documentation and links to runnable Koitlin snippets. Per the premises in your own Meta question (which I'll take on faith, since I don't know Koitlin) there are also "finer details" that could potentially be included in Koitlin-specific answers. These points alone are sufficient to justify the question remaining open.

In general, if there are possible answers of use to future readers that could be given to A but which could not be validly posted on B, even after making superficial tweaks to adapt them to B, then A should not be closed as a duplicate of B, since then you're blocking the posting of useful answers.

11
  • Just like with Robert Harveys answer, I do not see how this applies more strongly to cross lang dupes than regular dupes. Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:18
  • 1
    @HermannDöppes In the answer, I've listed reasons why these principles apply in this case that I think will frequently apply to cross-language dupes. Namely: as a reader who doesn't already know the answer to the question, I can't know whether the answer is in fact the same in another language, and so a cross-language duplicate doesn't answer my question unless I take that detail on faith. (I think this is almost always true for cross-language dupes.) And secondly, there are frequently language-specific nuances that lose the opportunity to be posted if cross-language "dupes" get closed.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:25
  • Second part: You presented it as a corollary to a general rule (which is apparently important enough to shout it) which prevents most duplicate closures. I'll give you that it applies marginally more strongly. However, to me, the difference is too small to justify the difference between “No CLDs” and “Other dupes good”. Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:44
  • First part: Yes, someone who does not know the answer does not know the answer. I still do not get your point. I always have to take things on faith until I get to try it. Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:46
  • @HermannDöppes Re point 2: I haven't sampled, but I don't think the second part, even construed very restrictively, prevents "most" duplicate closures (although I do think that there are a decent number of questions closed as duplicates that shouldn't be because of the second principle I posit here, without cross-language dupes coming into it at all).
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:50
  • @HermannDöppes Re: point 1, my point is that normally I have voting, comments, and the argument advanced within the body of an answer itself to assure me of its correctness. But when I'm trying to gauge whether a duplicate closure itself is technically correct, I don't have any of that information, which is a major disadvantage as a reader. So duplicate closure should only be used when, to an ordinary reader of the question, it's evident beyond reasonable doubt that the duplicate answers the closed question.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 13:52
  • Point 2: Fair enough, I haven't sampled either. Point 1, Point 2 and Duplicates in General: Then we should open up a broad discussion about how dupes should work (unless I'm simply so mistaken you can direct me to a source showing that I'm wrong in the eyes of the majority or site policy). Answering a special case with “The general system is flawed” does not strike me as productive. Commented May 8, 2018 at 14:47
  • @HermannDöppes I don't think "the general system is flawed"; I think that the majority of closures don't violate the principles I suggest here. Though, again, haven't sampled.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 14:51
  • The “There is no voting on dupe closures” part? How is this ever not violated? Commented May 8, 2018 at 15:07
  • @HermannDöppes Huh? That wasn't one of the circumstances in which I said not to dupe-close; it was just one of the facts used to justify one of those circumstances. The argument is "since there is no voting (or other feedback on technical accuracy) on dupe closures, only use them in cases where the technical correctness of the dupe closure is obvious, so that such feedback is unnecessary".
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 8, 2018 at 15:18
  • Yeah, I figured out in the meantime that taken together your points make sense (I considered them too much in isolation). I still think your answer makes your case poorly and I still disagree with you but I finally feel like I understand your position (thus allowing me to disagree in the first place). Thank you very much. Commented May 8, 2018 at 17:56

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .