59

Situation

I've noticed a common theme in discussions about the "Welcoming" blog post. That is a tendency of people (regardless of their views) to talk about the philosophy of the blog or the attitude of the community instead of discussing specific changes.

This is not surprising since the blog doesn't explicitly outline any particular actions for the community. Instead it focuses on why action needs to be taken. There are inferences that could be made from the blog, but there is little solid guidance on what is expected of the community.

Implications vs Statements

It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate.

But it’s totally cool to answer questions without giving a grilled poop sandwich about exactly what’s allowed. It’s fine to volunteer in one way without being expected to read and enforce every rule and meta discussion since forever.

Portions of the blog, like those quoted above, imply a loosening of moderation standards, but they are not clear statements about how or even if such a change would occur.

I believe that some of the controversy stems from the fact that everyone is forced to speculate about what exactly Stack Overflow corporate wants from us. This can lead to people having wildly different ideas regarding what the future holds. Which makes it difficult to have productive conversations.

Request for Clarification

Robert Harvey's question is similar, but addresses the community whereas I'm hoping for an answer from Jay/SO Staff.

I assume that there is not a complete plan at this point. Part of the purpose of the blog was presumably to collect ideas from the community. That said, clarification on what (if any) changes are expected of community moderators in light of the blog would be helpful in focusing the discussion in a more productive direction.

10
  • 81
    TBH, I'm not sure SE even knows what they're trying to advocate at all...
    – Mysticial
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:52
  • 24
    @Mysticial you suggesting that SE is in headless-chicken mode? Commented May 2, 2018 at 19:15
  • 23
    because I've suspected that for 6 days now:( Commented May 2, 2018 at 19:20
  • 32
    I've seen this kind of behaviour in companies I've worked at before. I've always gone with the 'update my CV' strategy. Commented May 2, 2018 at 19:23
  • 18
    Gods, welcoming now even got it's own tag! Just noticed. Commented May 2, 2018 at 20:05
  • 2
    @FélixGagnon-Grenier should I take my aspirin before visiting the tag, or after? Commented May 2, 2018 at 20:12
  • 2
    @MartinJames heh. With or without aspirin, a sound strategy visiting that tag might not be! Commented May 2, 2018 at 20:16
  • 8
    It's been my impression that when someone says the things you do make them sad, the intended message is don't do those things any more and if you keep doing those things, you don't know how to consider people's feelings. Commented May 2, 2018 at 23:54
  • 14
    @user2357112 Yes, the problem is the lack of reciprocity. Why do people who could care less about what makes anyone else sad make demands about these things? What about someone who says downvotes makes them sad, does anyone who continues to downvote becomes an "uncaring person"? That position, unnuanced, is untenable. Commented May 3, 2018 at 0:07
  • 12
    @user2357112 If the owner of an organization I volunteered at said that they were sad that the doors were locked at night, I wouldn't immediately change policy to leave them open at closing time. I would ask for clarification about what they wanted. That's what I'm doing here.
    – numaroth
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:49

3 Answers 3

37

As one user commented on your question:

It's been my impression that when someone says the things you do make them sad, the intended message is don't do those things any more and if you keep doing those things, you don't know how to consider people's feelings.

From an IPS point of view that is the message that is brought over. I however don't hope that is the intended message, since that will mean the end of Stack Overflow as we know it.

There are a lot of assumptions in that post and that clearly indicates Jay doesn't have too much experience on the working of the Q/A site.

For example, Jay said:

It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate.

Well, we don't downvote because someone posted a duplicate question. We downvote because:

This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful

Which will usually go for 90% of the duplicates. Should we upvote the 100th null reference exception code dump? Should we leave it open, just because we don't want to make Jay sad? I hope not.

0
12

TL;DR The blog post is not currently advocating for any changes to community actions, other than a small focus on flagging comments.


[T]he blog doesn't explicitly outline any particular actions for the community. Instead it focuses on why action needs to be taken. There are inferences that could be made from the blog, but there is little solid guidance on what is expected of the community.

That's because the blog post isn't focused on what the community needs to do. One of the most emphasized points in the blog post was that Stack Overflow (the company) has failed to adequately provide the tools to foster the welcoming environment they envision. For example,

The real problem isn’t the community — it’s us [Stack Overflow, the company].

We trained users to tell other users what they’re doing wrong, but we didn’t provide new folks with the necessary guidance to do it right. We failed to give our regular users decent tools to review content and easily find what they’re looking for. We sent mixed messages over the years about whether we’re a site for “experts” or for anyone who codes.

...

Let’s make it easier for new users to succeed. No, I’m not shifting the blame. We set them up for failure, and our power users have been asking us to help them for ages.

Everything else was an attempt to justify their future plans for improvements and other changes. These controversial portions of the blog post were basically the ROI argument for why some of these changes are worth spending their developer resources to pursue. The company's stance seems to be that they are (finally) noticing systemic shortcomings in the website that could be unintentionally driving users away. And while overt bigotry is very rare and handled properly and quickly, they think that perhaps their own overall design of the site fails to accommodate certain demographics.

There were no "effective immediately" rules changes or other things that the blog post actually requested. The one actionable thing it advocates is for better moderation of comments. Yes, I know that "unkind" is pretty vague (as is "Be Nice"), but that's not actually a policy change in any way. If you find a comment that is rude, obsolete, too chatty, etc flag it for moderator intervention.

So my final advice:

  • Keep doing what you're doing. The issues that the company is seeing are not really your fault.
  • Remember that comments need moderation just like posts do.
  • Participate in meta discussions if you want. They also provided a survey to asking users "to share their experiences in chat with us and help us prioritize what to work on first." Link to survey for how Stack Overflow can contact you about your experiences.
4
  • 5
    There was however an "effective immediately" effect that some persons link to this blog post to tell other that the moderation/chat they do is not 'welcoming' and should not be done.
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:11
  • 2
    @Tensibai and that's not something that the blog post itself ever directly suggested. Again, there was no policy change. I would have preferred that existing content like [Be Nice] was referenced instead.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:16
  • 3
    Lets disagree on this, the writing strongly suggest SE is against downvotes of duplicates for exemple (per the quote above). And honestly, SE should know better words have to be chosen carefully when writing a blog post which can be used as a reference on what SE awaits from the community.
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:36
  • Just add it to their list of shortcomings.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:39
1

The main action it's advocating, as I interpret it, is to think about how we can make the site more welcoming to other users, and discuss it. Which has been done. A lot. You can see the tag to view some of the discussions.

While it coins a lot of ideas, I'd personally avoid any real actions, aside from being aware of how your comments could be interpreted, and being kind in the comments.

5
  • 9
    Aw, come on, dude, seriously? Man, you cannot justify that blog post with the intention to spark a discussion! That's just ridicul... oh I just saw your last paragraph ... nevermind ( ;-) ). But seriously: While some good ideas might be distilled from the discussion, I think it caused far more harm than good, and an unnecessary polarization of the user base over political topics that are unrelated to the site. If the discussion about welcomingness was the goal, then it was inconsiderate, at least...
    – Marco13
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:23
  • 5
    If that was the case, why not just have a blog post suggesting making SO more welcoming?
    – user5940189
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 21:51
  • 4
    @Orangesandlemons, or why not get on with implementing some of the myriad suggestions to improve things that have been made over the years?
    – Benjol
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 7:41
  • @Marco13 I'm not justifying anything, I'm just trying to interpret the intentions behind it. And truly evil things are often done with the most noble intentions
    – Erik A
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 8:02
  • 4
    Sure. Really justifying the post in its current form (!) would be difficult. Mentioning reasons of why it was published in the first place may be simpler, but would be more likely to reveal motives that are (in the worst case) questionable or (in the best case) shallow and inconsiderate. If the responsible people made any statement (e.g. as an answer to this question), then this could help to calm things down, but now, there's just polarization, scrutiny and essentially chaos. A pity.
    – Marco13
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:04

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .