248

There's been a lot of talk lately about the state of Stack Overflow, sparked by this blog entry that levies this charge

Stack Overflow is intended to be an inclusive place where every programmer can participate. But it’s built on mechanics and norms that push people away if they don’t know the ins-and-outs. Too often, someone comes here to ask a question, only to be told that they did it wrong. They get snarky or condescending comments for not explaining what they’ve tried (that didn’t work). They get an answer… but the answerer gets scolded for “encouraging ‘low-quality’ questions.” They get downvoted, but don’t know why, or called lazy for not speaking English fluently. Or sometimes, everything actually goes well, and they get an answer! So they thank the poster… only to be told that on Stack Overflow, “please” and “thank you” are considered noise. All these experiences add up to making Stack Overflow a very unwelcoming place for far too many.

This isn't a new charge. It's been bandied about for years. Sooner or later, newbies get frustrated with the site and leave, with some parting shot of "the elitist, angry, frustrating (sometimes sexist/racist)" Stack Overflow (link was on the blog author's Twitter). I know I'm not alone when I scratch my head at this.

I'm a bit discouraged by the attitude toward moderation in the blog post. Moderation on SO often feels like a losing battle against the flood of low-quality questions, and Jay's statement that our moderation efforts "make [him] sad" is honestly really frustrating.

As someone who has grown into the latter roles of SO, let me take a step back and explain the type of culture that SO fosters. I hope that it better explains the "other side" of SO. It's easy to assume what is mean is, in reality, part of the functioning of the site.

There are two camps on SO (they are not mutually exclusive):

Helpers

These are your people who answer questions. By default, everyone starts in this camp. You want to help people and SO has no shortage of them. Helping people is what SO is about.

Curators

If you help enough people, you get reputation, which then translates into moderation. But moderation isn't the right term for this camp. When people think of moderators, they tend to think of police or authority figures. Most people only see moderators when they've done something wrong.

Curation is a better term. A curator is someone who looks for what should and shouldn't be here. A good museum, for instance, has a curator to decide what should and shouldn't be presented and how. A curator isn't mean; they just want people to come in and have a positive experience. That means (what has become a somewhat dirty word) discriminating against content that's not necessarily bad, but distracting from people enjoying the curated items.

Cynicism vs Always Helping

For the most part, Helpers and Curators work side-by-side. Curators have nothing against Helpers. This describes how SO should work. Helpers answer good questions, Curators remove the bad. Sooner or later, appreciative Helpers who have earned privileges start helping with curation and become Curators too.

Extremes are where we always see the flashpoints on this issue.

Helpers can become Always Helpers. They believe that every question deserves an answer. That's what SO is for, right? So they made a typo? Give an answer. They just described a general programming idea without any code? Give an answer. Homework dump? Give an answer. The rules don't matter, just help everyone. And they get Internet Points for doing it. What was the downside again?

Curators, on the other hand, have to fight cynicism. This tweet typifies the cynical curator

enter image description here

I have no idea who made this comment, but it's not terrible, it's just really, really terse (I'm sure mods could come up with far worse). Still, if you've just posted the question, this could easily be viewed as unkind or mean. Yes, they told you what the problem is but in a not-so-nice way. It's dripping with cynicism.

Why is there so much cynicism?

enter image description here
Source

There's several reasons, but to list a few

  1. No real attempts to answer the question first - That's part of what frustrates curators. How many times does the same question about the same error message need to be asked?
  2. Moderation is almost always viewed negatively - There's nothing like having your question closed to bring out the snark, colorful language and even revenge downvoting
  3. Help Vampires - A help vampire wants to be spoon-fed an answer. You're trying to teach them to fish, but they want you to give them a fish. Fed by the Always Help crowd, they have no incentive to pay attention to the rules

    The problem is that the post that should be closed and downvoted was instead answered (three times) and upvoted, until the meta effect kicked in. Clearly these tools aren't sufficient to deal with this problem.

So let's circle back to our terse 100k user. Imagine that they've spent a day trying to help people and along comes yet another user who just dumps some code and an error. I can't blame them for feeling a bit irritated. With SO getting some 6000 questions a day, there's more than a few cynical curators out there not doing the best job (I can think of a few who even got banned for clashing over their cynicism). I'm not excusing their behavior, but it's not hard to see why, if you ask a poor question, it sometimes means cynical comments, downvotes and closure.

Fighting cynicism

First off, we need to appreciate what curators do. Curation is a largely thankless (and often transparent) job. That's what the blog missed. Think about this

  • When was the last time you saw spam on the site remain for a long time? A major reason it dies so fast is the good folks over at Charcoal have developed a pretty good system to catch it so anyone getting notices can flag it
  • Low quality answers and bad comments? There's a crew working with mods on that.
  • Closures and question/tag cleanup? SOCVR

Sometimes there's a public acknowledgement of what they do, but I'm willing to bet a lot of people are only hearing about them for the first time here. If you heard about them after only reading the blog, you might think they are filled with mean people and you'd be wrong. Too many people want to see said curation ended already and the blog didn't help that sentiment.

Second, if you've never tried curation, now is a good time to start. If you have at least 500 rep, you can do some reviews. Even if you only have 15 rep, you can still flag questions for review and closure (too few low-rep people know about that last one). A few days in the queues and it will change your perspective on how SO works.

Third, listen to the curators. Even when cynical, they're seldom doling out bad advice. If they suggest improvement, at least give it a whirl. Too many people get negative comments and just give up. You'd be amazed how taking criticism can transform your question and get you the help you need.

Fourth, talk to the curators. All of the above curation rooms can be used to discuss their actions, or similar actions by others. SOCVR has been known to reopen questions from time to time. Meta is another place to discuss problems.

Fifth, we should probably start flagging snarky comments as no longer needed. They're not rude (i.e. personal attacks), but not helpful either. Help remind curators that they want to improve the site, not tear users down. But don't take comments like I showed above as rude. There's no personal attacks, just a brusque correction. If you want to make it friendlier, leave a friendly comment.

Lastly, understand that curators are human too. Sometimes curators get it wrong, which is why there's nothing much a non-mod can do that is irreversible. The curation teams I mentioned above all understand that, and they all aspire to the highest levels of accountability. If there's a problem, bring it to their attention and discuss it.

19
  • 25
    No tl;dr? Help a brother out!
    – Script47
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:48
  • 14
    @Script47 Be excellent to each other
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:52
  • 127
    Counter point: let's shut down every queue review, flagging system, etc, for a month so that people are forced to acknowledge the tedious sewer work many people put in every day. Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:57
  • 9
    What's a "snarky" comment, for the purpose of your suggestion that we delete all of them? As with the blog post's call for us to delete "unkind" comments, I'm by default strongly against any suggestion to purge a whole class of comments from the site unless it comes with a clear definition of what is and is not in that class - otherwise, we don't know if we're on the same page about what the proposal is. Is the one you pasted an image of about an error on line 49 "snarky"? Is this comment that I'm now posting "snarky"?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:02
  • 7
    I completely agree with all of the above, regarding the tweet you linked to where a user with 100K rep was shamed for trying to help the user unkindly - here is some thoughts I've had in chat: It's as if it's not understanding that the people writing the answers aren't burned. It's as if it's not understanding that people who write answers pour their time to help people and that it's an expectation alignment problem. ... Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:08
  • 2
    .. It's as if this is something that can be addressed without alleviating the pain people writing answers are in. It's as if you can solve this without making the lives of those people easier. People who write comments like that are sick of constantly being attacked and it drives them away. Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:08
  • 22
    I've had it with being beaten up over comments. I'm just not going to post any, at all, on questions from low-rep users. No requests for clarification, no hints, no quick answer 'cos I don't want the rep or can't be bothered dupe-linking. Just no comments at all. They'll still have the guns and will still want to shoot me, but Imma taking all the ammo. Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:15
  • 61
    @BenjaminGruenbaum that tweet is outrageous, the individual asking for help should be courteous enough to provide the relative information. I personally found no issue with what the 100K rep user commented. What else was expected? It's like going to a mechanic without your car and expecting them to fix it. Entitled is a nice way of really putting what they are being.
    – Script47
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:30
  • 14
    @Machavity That standard seems orthogonal to snark. A comment can be constructive and snarky (e.g. pointing out a subtle error in a post and then making a subtle jab at the poster's intelligence for not noticing it themselves) or superfluous and friendly ("+1 nice answer bro"). It seems to me that if you're just applying the "no longer needed" standard, then you're not really targeting snark at all, or even necessarily factoring it into the decision process determining whether a comment should live.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 20:59
  • 2
    Fifth, we should probably start flagging snarky comments as no longer needed. They're not rude (i.e. personal attacks), but not helpful either. We need to define snarky. I flag as "Not Needed" many comments like the ones in the tweet, some worse, but they are declined. Mods and users need to be on the same page.
    – jpp
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:23
  • 7
    Why is it surprising, all you are seeing is the same thing that happens in real life. There are people who just want to show how awesome they are and revel in being able to do that by pointing out how they are superior to someone else in some narrow aspect of life. I just ignore all of those people and appreciate the people who actually try to help, again, just the same as I do in real life. The internet doesn't need to be censored, people just need to realize you don't need to listen to everything everyone says about you. Commented May 2, 2018 at 0:40
  • 7
    @MarkAmery Honestly, if "snark" is being slightly frustrated that the post author didn't bother to post the line of their code that throws the error when the runtime goes to the trouble of telling them exactly what line it is, then I don't think we should target it. Sometimes askers need prodding to think a little harder about what they're doing.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 5:43
  • 1
    @jpmc26 I have no idea though whether, in Machavity's mind, that comment is snarky. He mentions it together in a post about deleting snarky comments but then doesn't explicitly opine on whether it is one. Hence my question about where he considers the line to be.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:14
  • 1
    @MarkAmery I guess what I'm saying is that I actually think a standard that is orthogonal to snark is entirely reasonable, but I agree a bit of clarification is warranted since Machavity later goes on to say things like, "Be excellent to each other."
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:21
  • 2
    I do agree with the statement, "It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate." Once you've voted to close it, I see no point in downvoting it as well. In fact, it might be a really good question--it's just a duplicate of a question that's already been asked. Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:54

8 Answers 8

95

This pretty much nails how I feel about the whole mess. You try to write quality content, and you just see so much garbage everywhere. Bad answers telling people to do things they probably shouldn't even be attempting because it's so far outside the norms of the language. Questions that don't even explain what to do about edge cases getting highly upvoted. (List processing ones are especially bad on that front.) Questions that are trivial combinations of two other questions. Closing questions is now much harder because of close vote expiration.

And then when we try to talk about it, we get stuff like templates that are blatantly optimized for "fix my code" questions. It's like SO doesn't even understand the nature or the difficulty of the problem of quality anymore. They seem to think that there's some unicorn set of "tools" and "education" that will make most new users write wonderful questions and answers, and then the community will be perceived as "welcoming" and membership will flourish even more than it already has. But writing a good post takes a lot of hard work researching the problem. It takes a lot of time chasing down leads that pop into your mind while you're writing. It takes a lot of stopping and asking yourself, "Is this thing I wrote really true, or did I just assume it?" In other words, it takes a lot of introspection into your thought process, and that is not a skill that many people have developed. A few tools and pop ups and help pages are not going to magically make them start introspecting on most of the sentences they write, much less on the code they want to ask about. But doing so is the only path toward a good post. Now we're being told that we're the problem, because we leverage the moderation system and tell people that they didn't do enough to get their question up to snuff "nicely" enough or something, rather than it being the author's problem that they couldn't handle a little sharp criticism that nails where their asking process went wrong. And make no mistake; that's what this blog post is saying. They just think they can fix that with tools or something, too. The reality is that SO is perceived as arrogant because of things like authors taking offense to someone fixing grammar in their post or believing that SO's primary goal should be making everyone feel good for contributing anything regardless of whether it's garbage or not. (I kid you not; people I work with have expressed exactly these opinions to me.) The blog just so enormously underestimates the complexity of the problem and the responsibility of individuals that it's disheartening.

And what's more, they spend a ton of time posting blogs like this one and the "Jon Skeet wants you to be a feminist" one and the issue around "Time to Take a Stand"; in other words, propagating their social and political views. I can't help but get the sense that maybe SO wants to do that kind of thing more than they want to be a great site for programming information. Maybe my perception of that comes partly from my own biases; I fairly strongly disagree with many of SO's prominent social and political views. But I don't think anyone can reasonably deny there's been a significant uptick in this sort of activity and vigorous defenses of it in the past year or two.

It makes me feel unwelcome. But I'm not looking for SO to try to make me feel welcome. I felt welcome when I thought that the quality of a post mattered more than the feelings of the person posting it. I felt welcome when I thought my social and political views didn't matter. I felt welcome when I felt like the quality of questions and answers was king (within the bounds of basic manners), even though not all of my posts ended up being of that caliber. I just wanted to share some info that really helped me out but was hard to find, or ask for some help on a problem when I ran into a wall during my research, or add something important I felt like the other answers missed. I just want SO to go back to the roots that gave it the reputation it has. I want it to focusing strongly and constantly on providing a place to get expert advice from people who know what they're doing for the topic of the site (programming for SO, of course). I want it to optimize for pearls even though we've got an ocean floor of sand now. Stack Overflow became the premier site for programming help because of its efforts to attract knowledgeable, capable, dedicated answerers by promising them that they don't have to put up with garbage questions all the time, and it doesn't seem to believe that's important anymore.


I feel like my post lacks objectivity and evidence, so I'd like to explain that I'm not trying to lay out definitive proof that everyone thinks or feels exactly this way. But I do think this is a perspective that is often put aside and not considered, and I think maybe that is part of why some community members are so upset and frustrated by this blog post. What I'm hoping to achieve with this post is just to plant a little seed of thinking about this vein of perspective into the minds of SO employees, and maybe by doing so, we can get a better SO going forward.

1
  • "And then when we try to talk about it, we get stuff like templates that are blatantly optimized for "fix my code" questions". Ask wizard: *avoids eye contact.
    – starball
    Commented Nov 24, 2022 at 22:57
41

If Stack Overflow wants curators to be more polite, they should give us the tools to do it easily.

Take that tweet as an example. I agree with April's follow-up tweet about nicer wording, but consider that the curator who wrote that comment had to come up with it by hand.

They probably also had to come up with hand-written comments for "this is a lazy homework dump," and "googling the exact text of your summary line gives you the answer," and "you should take a tutorial for the basics of the language." If they curate a lot, they've probably lost count of how many such comments they've written today.

So, make it easy! Give us button-press options, with a similar workflow to the close workflow, for these kinds of common comments. Without that, our options are:

  1. Carefully think about the wording for each new comment. Give even the laziest of question-writers the benefit of the doubt. This requires a lot of patience, and is especially hard if one is burned out.
  2. Write something accurate but terse. This can be helpful to the OP if they take it as such, but more often, it's offputting.
  3. Don't write anything, but still downvote and/or close. Now the OP is probably just as annoyed, and has less of a chance to correct their behavior.
  4. Mutter, close the tab, and resolve to cut back on visiting the site.

Speaking for myself, I know I cycle through those options on a fairly regular schedule. I try to catch myself at step #2, since I think that's the most harmful to the OP. But if SO made it easy for me to stay at #1, everyone would win.

3
  • 9
    As is the case with a lot of things, Curators solved this one ourselves. If you have TamperMonkey or GreaseMonkey you can install AutoReviewComments and roll your own comments or use a library. SOCVR has one I contribute to
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:29
  • 3
    @Machavity Cool, thanks! I think I qualify as a curator (32.8k rep, spend a fair amount of my SO time on moderation), but I had no idea this existed -- or even that such a community exists. Maybe SO could be more proactive in connecting people like me to those resources.
    – yshavit
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 21:52
  • 2
    Come hang out in SOCVR chat and we can hook you up
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 23:12
17

I think that your distinction between curation and moderation is useful, thank you.

I can't help wondering what would happen if all the 'welcome' brigade were given mod rights to go and flag/edit/eliminate the 'snark' out of Stack Overflow.

How long would they last before they themselves got burnt out and snarky about the never-ending flood? :)

1
  • 8
    Curation burn-out is high. rene is the only regular in SOCVR whom I've not seen take any kind of break. Some just stopped participating altogether
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:23
8

Here is my take on why Stack Overflow may sometimes not seem welcoming.

First, I don't think the unicorn points are a big issue. If you spent some time on the site you quickly realize that your time or the amount of knowledge you can gain is far more valuable than any amount of badges or rep points ever could be.

What really counts for those with a question is getting answers and being allowed to post more questions and for those with the answers is being listed on top of the answers list, so that more people read it. Both requires a positive, as high as possible, score.

But a high, positive score is not a given. As a questioner you fight for attention and should make your question interesting to read. As an answerer you know all about the importance of being fast.

And still, especially for those with a question, there is no right to get an answer. Stack Overflow acts as a marketplace connecting people with free time and knowledge with those with much less knowledge and lots of problems to solve. The matchmaking procedure on this marketplace is really quite poor, at the level of screening lots of new questions in favorite tags to find a few interesting ones.

And while even under ideal circumstances frictions in human interactions are unavoidable, people not having fun probably exacerbate the problem.

Seeing lots of low quality content during review work or during question assessment, might actually be much less fun than one would expect given that still so many people do it. I gave up taking part in the review process quite some time ago because I realized I don't enjoy it.

Bottom line: The voting which is inherent to how Stack Overflow works gives explicit feedback and may contribute to the unwelcomeness. Also a lot of reviewers and answerers may not enjoy the experience enough to remain welcoming. Maybe a way out is exploring more the idea of a marketplace and finding better ways for all of us to come together and have fun in the process without giving up the quality standards.

Finally, Machavity stresses that Curators are humans too. Let me add that we are all only humans and we all want to be treated kindly.

6
  • 2
    part of why SO may not seem welcoming is that it is hard to find guides. i really go to google and search "how to ask a question on stack overflow" in order to get the link of the meta post so i can comment it on a poorly asked question. it's faster for me to find it that way. i believe putting a guide to how to ask, answer, comment somewhere easily accessible will reduce the frustration.
    – George
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 9:50
  • also there are a difference in how generations think. it is clear to me that new generations are used to get what they want without working hard. old generations know that working hard will get you what you want. this might not be totally accurate on SO but it sure is in life. new users think it's easier to ask the question on SO than really trying to search for the answer first.
    – George
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 9:54
  • Also there is no doubt that some users are too hard on new users
    – George
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 10:02
  • 1
    @George Fully agree with all you said. Especially the help should be more easily accessible. And I don't really blame posters of low quality content for what they do. I believe that are acting rationally in their own best perceived interest. Asking a quick, poorly researched question doesn't take much time and somebody might even answer it. If only they knew that they won't get an answer to a bad question but lots of downvotes instead, maybe they would put more effort in it. Not sure though. But that's the key. SO is not a free tutoring service and will never be. That needs to become clear... Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 12:23
  • 1
    @George ... to everyone. Everyone needs to know what SO is and what SO isn't and what SO can do and what it can't do. The system must be designed so that curation remains exception handling and not the main activity to organize the content. I'm happy to give my time to answer questions of people who invested their time too, but I'm not going to look at lots of not so good questions in order to find one that I want to answer, because that doesn't make me happy. It's the same problem and the same questions that are discussed for many years here. So far, a well working solution is out of sight. Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 12:29
  • i fully agree with you
    – George
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 7:18
7

Does anyone know if the guy that posted that blog entry has ever provided technical answers on Stack Overflow? To me that blog entry read as the worst example of Dilbertesque-speak from a non-technical person that I have seen in recent years.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of recent questions on the C++ tag (the only one I follow) are getting completely unwarranted up-votes. I'm not normally a tin-foil hat sort of person, but is there some sort of "adjustment" going on?

2
  • 7
    Jay Hanlon's Stack Overflow account is Jaydles. He currently has no questions or answers, but his rep history shows he used to have at least one answer. The answer was nontechnical, and the question has been closed and deleted. He also has activity on a number of other SE sites, leaning toward asking (but not exclusively). Commented May 3, 2018 at 23:16
  • 7
    I am not sure whether this kind of digging is appropriate, and it's not really a good match for the topic of the current meta question. Commented May 3, 2018 at 23:18
2
  1. As a novice on this site, it is wonderful. It is fantastic that people take the time to help.
  2. I have recieved terse comments and been made to feel stupid / unwelcome, but the help recieved outweighed them.
  3. I have just been blocked from asking questions. I understand.
  4. However, I feel I was improving in the way I asked the questions and getting closer to a position where I can help others myself.
  5. If people are blocked before they have chance to learn the ropes, where are the future helpers going to come from?
  6. There is no indication of what specifically I did wrong. My last question I answered myself. I found a solution that worked for me, and could be useful to others.
  7. Some more specific guidance on how I can be accepted back would be very useful; especially of deleting older questions will not help.
4
  • 1
    If you've not seen it, this Meta explains the question ban
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 14:50
  • I agree with your last point; "deleting older questions won't help you evade or get out of the question ban" is something that new users really need to be told.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 15:41
  • So if I ammend my old posts to what I think is better matched to expectations, will this be picked up? Or until I am of a level where I can answer unanswered questions and recieve upvotes should I just consider myself unwelcome? If that is the case so be it - I understand the site has to be productive. Is there an equivalent site where you can pay for specialist assistance, rather than have to conform to a code of conduct that I don't understand?
    – BenSellars
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 15:47
  • 2
    Thanks to whoever upvoted my last two questions (and one answer). I can now post questions again... and will be very careful of what I submit! Hopefully I can become a useful member of the community in time.
    – BenSellars
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 17:03
-15

Here is a consideration on how to make the effects of cynicism into something actionable by StackOverlow...

It has been said that at the root of all anger is shame.

It is a bold statement. It echoes a bit like that Buddhist statement that at the root of all virtue is gratitude. What is remarkable is neither said some, or most, or a lot: they said all. In this case, the aphorism is that all anger comes from shame.

Is it true? I don't know. I am an emergency physician and I heard the quote from a patient who learned it from Alcoholics Anonymous. It stuck because as a physician, I had seen AA's Twelve Steps transform the lives of patients. It was interesting that, independent of whether we believe in AA or not, AA considers this principle of shame and anger so important that one of the Twelve Steps to recovery is to go to all the people you can recall ever wronging and apologizing to them. The reason? So the individual can escape the shame that perpetuates the cycle of drinking.

After hearing this aphorism more than eight years ago, I have continued to wonder if it is true. Yet, anecdotally and clinically in emergency medicine, it has proven remarkably true. Look for shame whenever seeing outrageous open displays of anger (like in the online videos of rage we keep seeing), you can start to notice that in virtually every case of outrageous anger, you can pinpoint the source of shame that ignited it.

We have seen that shame can be like gunpowder to anger

At the frontlines of emergency medicine, we see patients in extreme situations and mental states. What has been remarkable is how little shame it takes to create explosive anger. Confront someone about wearing a mask during COVID-19 and that simple shame of not wearing a mask to protect others has led to videos of remarkable rage online. Road rage is another example. If the individual doesn't know what they did "wrong" - there is no rage - just confusion. (i.e. "Why did they honk at us?") If the individual knows their transgression, you can see the explosive rage. ("Because you wouldn't let me in, I had to cut in a*hole!") Conversely, look at a situation of explosive anger, remove the shame, and you can see how the anger fades.

Some might argue that self-reflection isn't science, or that "correlation is not causation." To that, one can simply can test this aphorism "therapeutically" in one's own life. In the emergency department, we have used defusing shame in psychological crises with patients to take them from rage to calmer states. We have found the key is to identify their shame, and immediately find ways to defuse it (i.e. "you were clearly trying your best as a parent", "you couldn't have known what they were going to do", "there was no way for you to know what was going on inside them.") Virtually anyone can test this intervention in their own daily lives. Our experience has been that when you can find the shame and defuse it, the effects are dramatic.

If the aphorism is true, then it means much and maybe all the anger we see on Stack Overflow can be traced to something invoking shame.

Some might argue the aphorism is not true because it says "all" anger - yet that simply raises the question - to what extent is it true. If it even largely true - it could have profound implications for online communities - and could be an unrecognized key for solving community problems that have have been challenging or intractable.

Though science may not give us 100% certainty, there are standard psychological approaches we can use. For example, though tracing whether gratitude is at root of all virtue is a bit beyond our neuroscience today - one can reflect on the experience of their own lives. The same goes for whether shame can be found at the root of anger, and whether had that shame been removed, does the anger go away. Perhaps that personal reflection won't take the 40 days that supposedly the Buddha took sitting under the Bodhi tree.

This retrospection is something both worth doing and worth answering for SO's community.

Once you do and begin viewing SO conversations through the lens of shame, the paths that leads to "failed"/angry or "successful" conversational threads can become very clear.

For example, the OP above shared a user comment saying this "is not terrible". They wrote:

"If the error says at line 49, it tells you exactly where the problem lies. If you post 7 lines of code here, we clearly can't tell you what the problem is in line 49."

Yet, on deeper analysis, one can see that this statement is not meant to simply inform. It is also meant to shame.

Imagine if we try to maximize the shaming in the statement (some here with better talent can perhaps give a better example):

Notice this statement is a mix of facts and adds judgements about those facts.

"Your error clearly states the problem is at line 49, yet without consideration for anyone, you deliberately posted just *7 lines" of code knowing full well that we clearly can't give you an answer thus wasting everyone's time who read your inconsiderate post."

Compare that to a response aimed to minimize shame. Notice this statement leaves facts and removes judgements.

"The error says the problem is "at line 49" but we only have the first 7 lines of code. Can you add the additional lines of code?"

Notice the difference. It is vital.

Unnecessary shaming could be at the heart of poor user comments and reflect a preeminent challenge in moderation.

The commenter's statement tries no less than three times to shame the poster:

  1. Instead of simply saying "line 49 tells you where the problem lies", the user added the word "exactly." It is an unnecessary word. You can ask yourself - why did the commenter feel compelled to add it.
  2. Instead of simply stating "Though we have the first 7 lines of code" the statement says "If you post 7 lines of code..." The commenter implies something about the behavior of the OP which is not flattering.
  3. Instead of simply asking "Can you add line 49?", the moderator added the word "clearly" saying "we clearly can't tell." This is another unnecessary word. Why is it there? It implies the OP has some deficit that they couldn't see something so clear.

Taken from a shaming perspective, it actually is a terrible comment

The result of the shaming is that the reader of this statement gets the distinct impression that the commenter is trying to tell them that not only did they not post the needed code - but also that it was dead simple as evidenced by that fact that the error told them "exactly" what was needed. It adds that the potential answerers "clearly" can't answer it because of their failure. Notice that these "trigger" words are the exact same words April Wensel thought were suspect in her [tweet about this] comment.3 The original poster of the question is left to decide whether the commenter meant they were too stupid or too lazy to write a good question.

It is unclear from this post how this thread turned out. Maybe the poster brushed off the attempt to shame them or perhaps they felt the shame and let it ignite into anger.

The biggest takeaway is that this type of unnecessary shaming can be seen at the heart of poor comments and removing it from discourse can be the preeminent challenge of moderation.

The OP of this meta thread notes that cynicism is what we need to guard against. If the aphorism is true, we can add to that, pointless shaming.

If the aphorism that shame is at the root of all anger is true...then the profound implication is that all anger we see on Stack Overflow can be traced to the result of a reaction to shame.

Is shaming necessary to change behavior on Stack Overflow?

Some on Stack Overflow might argue shaming is needed to stop bad posting behavior. In clinical practice, we rarely see shaming work to change behavior. I have seen patients, yellowed with jaundice from their alcoholism, choking on the blood they are vomiting from burst vessels in their esophagus as they die. Shame never helped them escape their addiction. Instead, we see the behavior continue. The exclamation mark on this point is that addictions are some of the hardest behaviors to change. AA found that for people to break alcohol addiction - members had to overcome and escape their shame. Think of all the addictions with shame cycles for which this could be true.

Some might also claim that avoiding comments that shame is not possible. People can choose to be shamed by anything. Ironically, this very post could unexpectedly trigger shame in some readers. Though it is true that people can choose to be shamed by anything, there are entire fields of study dedicated to communication without shaming. The field of medicine regularly trains clinicians how to phrase feedback to patients in ways without shaming.

Recognizing shaming words in comments can be challenging. Yet, once you master the skill it is easy to test. Identify someone's shame and with just a few words you can send them into violent Rage. Learning to see shaming in comments is a one-way trip. You will no longer be able to unsee it - and you will see shaming in online communities everywhere. Regretfully, you will also see it across Stack Overflow. It may even begin to bother you. But - the most powerful part is that you will also begin see how to calm people in situations that were never before possible. We found it works for people in the most difficult medical and psychological circumstances.

What can Stack Overflow do about it for the future? Build a "shame bot."

Today, we have a "friendly/not friendly" comment bot on SO that uses natural language processing and sentiment analysis. Imagine if we trained a new bot that gave a "shaming" comment score: a "shame bot." Every commenter or user could instantly reassess whether their statement could be rewritten in a more factual and objective way without the judgments. If shaming were removed based on feedback, implied judgment could be cleansed and across the platform, sentiment could be improved. Anger could fade. The community could be viewed as more welcoming to newcomers.

This type of sentiment analysis could be well within the wheel-house of NLP technology today.

What can Stack Overflow do about it today? Prove the science.

We don't need to wait for AI sentiment technology.

Stack Overflow can leverage the wisdom of the crowd. Stack Overflow can simply enable the crowd to rate comments on a scale for how much they seem to focus on shaming the poster. These ratings could become a filter moderators could use to rapidly triage and simplify their work - or it could become automated feedback to posters who continue to stir anger on the boards.

Importantly, this crowdsourced approach would build a data foundation for a future "shame bot" above. The result of collecting these "shame" ratings means Stack Overflow will be building a baseline of data that can be used to train shame sentiment algorithms which can then be tested across the communities.

Why is this important? SO can move this aphorism from philosophy to science

What organization has ever scientifically proven a philosophical quote from the Buddha, or Confucius, or Marcus Aurelius - or, in this case, from AA?

Stack Overflow help move this aphorism from philosophy to science.

Stack Overflow could do this by running an A/B test (i.e. a randomized clinical trial) invoking the "shame bot" as a "clinical therapy" for some posts and not on others.

If the aphorism is truly as powerful as clinical practice seems to suggest and AA seems to believe, then simple NLP sentiment analysis on comment threads should show a massive decrease in negative sentiment when a "shame bot" (or its effective equivalent) is invoked then when it isn't.

The result of this effort could be boards cleansed of unnecessary shaming, anger fading across the community, new visitors feeling more welcome, and an overall a better Stack Overflow.

It also means Stack Overflow could be building the science that could lead online communities globally to help them feel more welcoming.

Or - all of this could be simply debunked.

What now?

The issue feels important. It seems foundational to creating a more welcoming community on Stack Overflow. If the aphorism is right, it is the issue we face.

What about something simple?

In the absence of new infrastructure, at minimum, perhaps this type of approach of "facts without judgement" and "statements without shaming", whether overt or implied, simply becomes part of the "style guide" for the participation in the SO community. Notice that simply removing implied judgements in posts and leaving the facts goes a long way.

Yes, even if solved, other problems will still remain - but it is worth answering the question whether this issue might be at the heart of many problems relating to the perception of friendliness of the community.

This post suggests just a couple of approaches for helping solve the issue of comments meant to shame. Perhaps there are better solutions. I leave it to the cleverer of us here. It would be great to hear the ideas because from an old physician's perspective, SO critically needs it, and could be so much better for it.

27
  • 9
    I think this would work better as a separate question, rather than an answer. There's a lot to unpack, and comments are a poor place to do that. It's a well written question.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 15, 2020 at 22:22
  • 2
    The quoted comment is "meant" to shame only in the unhelpful trivial sense that the commenter intends for the poster to notice that their post was problematic & can reasonably expect that once the poster notices they might feel shame according to their own evaluation of their posting as irrational/illogical/thoughtless. There is no avoiding this if the poster is to be helped. You are shooting the messenger. Within the AA analogy, the poster can't be helped until they admit to themselves that they have a posting problem.
    – philipxy
    Commented Jul 15, 2020 at 23:25
  • 2
    @Machavity I am intrigued by your answer. How might this best be turned into a question?
    – Praxiteles
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 4:55
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey Thanks for the helpful comment. It was a great concern of mine that moderators might feel this post was about them and feel shame rather than recognize Is the small minority of others out there who are tone deaf to how to keep their posts shame-free. That said, I am somewhat disappointed to see all the downvotes - as it seems to be such an under-appreciated issue on SO. It is like watching a community wound itself psychologically and not fully understand how or why. It would be great if the down-voters would explain why.
    – Praxiteles
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 5:36
  • 5
    I don't see why this would be a question, as it directly answers the question. The question posits why SO doesn't seem welcoming, and gives examples of curators being cynical. The question even goes so far as to state that cynical comments, while perhaps not ideal, should be listened to; essentially encouraging such behavior. This answer directly addresses the situation, by showing how cynicism, a form of shaming, can have adverse effects and cause undue problems in social situations. In my opinion, this is an insightful response to the overall situation. Shaming is unfriendly or unkind.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 7:26
  • 1
    I've read this answer and I find it helpful. I think it is a very strong notion. Of course, everyone can have a bad day. And it's not really sufficient. Even if everyone would write only super neutral comments all the time, they could still be factually wrong or the one they are directed at could still not understand them or fail to act on them. Downvotes and close votes would still be downvotes and close votes. Low quality content would still be low quality content. StackOverflow might always be seen as unwelcoming by some just because it has votes. Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 18:12
  • 1
    @talex "It propose to use technology yet to be invented." Yes, but it doesn't seem too far-fetched. The company has achieved something similar with the unfriendly comments robot. This seems to be a bit more elaborate, but not totally impossible. It would probably still be a lot of work, but the company would have the resources to go this way. They also identified comments as the root cause of bad vibrations, as far as I remember. I think there are still votes and low quality content, but it might be worth some time and energy. Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 19:15
  • 2
    "If AA is right" - they're not. Shame does help contribute to anger in some cases, but saying that shame is the root of all anger is like calling water dangerous because 100% of anything that drinks or otherwise absorbs water eventually dies. Correlation != causation, and with emotions, one size does absolutely not fit all. Everyone responds differently to different emotions, including shame. Some people bottle up anger until that one final drop hits, and unleashes everything. You never know what the person or people you're talking to have been through, or is going through for that matter Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 20:17
  • 1
    As for AA, keep in mind that it's the very same program that's quite honestly extremely influenced by religion, and not facts. I'm not arguing with its effects on people's lives, but I will push back hard against claims they make that can be scientifically disproven. Hyperbolic wording ("all") makes this super easy - one link connecting anger to another emotion is enough to break your entire statement, and here you go: mentalhelp.net/blogs/the-link-between-anger-and-stress psychologytoday.com/us/blog/overcoming-destructive-anger/202004/… Commented Jul 16, 2020 at 20:23
  • 2
    I find your ideas intreguing, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Also, while I'm on the fence about AA, I've known folks who've found group therapy helpful and thus am unwilling to dismiss attempts out of hand; I've yet to hear of a completely effective approach to treating alcoholism. My advice would be to focus on your theory and ways in which its efficacy might be tested.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 0:21
  • 1
    "Yet, on deeper analysis, one can see that this statement is not meant to simply inform. It is also meant to shame." - now this is assuming bad faith. Not that it's a CoC violation anymore, but assuming bad faith is not a good idea. If you assume people are out to get you, that's what it's going to appear as. It's a bit like discovering a new word, and suddenly, it's everywhere and you can't understand how you missed it. Assume people are out to shame, and the comment will look like it's meant to shame. You still can't know what OP intended. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:06
  • 1
    Just so I'm abundantly clear here, I'm not saying shaming isn't a problem, but it's nowhere near as big a problem as you make it out to be. "We don't need to wait for AI sentiment technology." - no, because it already exists. "Stack Overflow can leverage the wisdom of the crowd. Stack Overflow can simply enable the crowd to rate comments on a scale for how much they seem to focus on shaming the poster. " - we have flags for a reason. If a comment violates the CoC, you flag Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:11
  • 1
    "Notice this statement is a mix of facts and adds judgements about those facts." - again, you flag in those cases. You're describing parts already outlined in the code of conduct, but adding a provably false link to the cause of it. "Some on Stack Overflow might argue shaming is needed to stop bad posting behavior." - who? Serious question, because I have not seen a single person arguing that shame is necessary to change behavior. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:22
  • 1
    "You will no longer be able to unsee it - and you will see shaming in online communities everywhere" - it's not exclusively an online problem. Happens IRL too, but people seem more happy to ignore that aspect of it and blame the internet. "Imagine if we trained a new bot that gave a "shaming" comment score: a "shame bot."" - certain shaming comments classify as rude. We don't need two bots to classify a separate type of comments when the worst ones fall under a category we already have a bot and flags for. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:28
  • 1
    "This post suggests just a couple of approaches for helping solve the issue of comments meant to shame" - not all unwelcoming comments are meant to shame. Some are outright rude, and some times, people interpret completely neutral, non-rude comments as unwelcoming and express that by violating the CoC while accusing others of violating the CoC. You'll notice that pattern if you ever get into bot-assisted comment flagging Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:34
-18

I am one who sees Stack Overflow as unwelcoming. I struggle with language, but I try really hard to make sure all the details are included that need to be there when asking my question. If it's error code on 43, I pull all the code that is not related to that and rerun the program to generate the same error but on a line that will work for Stack Overflow. No one wants to go through the entire stack of my problems.

With all that said, I still am hesitant to even post on Stack Overflow because of the toxic culture that's been breeding here.

  1. Every question that has been asked before is marked as a duplicate. How does someone that is new to the community even get started here if you're required to ask a question just to be able to contribute? Eventually everything will be asked and answered and Stack Overflow will be a static site for answers, right? (This seems really dumb but I wanted to actually start using Stack Overflow at one point and had to come up with some sort of question)
  2. Asking a good question but not using the best practices (or standard_naming_convention) in the code gets elitist up tight and earns downvotes. And when I say elitists, I'm talking people with more than 20k rep who should be community leaders. Never mind that there's an edit button that even I can click for your post. (149 reputation points editing someone I voted for >.> -- o.0 wonder if it will even count with the recent downvote putting me below the threshold).
  3. Things getting left unanswered because it isn't worth anyone's time to try find a solution. No one wants to do another person's homework. But at some point all of these questions are "homework," especially given the last 6 months in the world.
  4. Downvoting without any explanation for growth or development to help improve the quality of the content posted by its users. It's just a festering group of negativity.
17
  • 10
    1. That's great, you get an answer substantially faster than someone having to write one from scratch. Work with the dupe, not against it. 2. This is a hard claim to back, considering that votes are anonymous by design; experience tells me that there are usually better reasons for the downvotes than the ones the poster thinks. 3. The site is run by volunteers! There is no way to ensure an answer to an answerable question, and no one is entitled to an answer to the question in the first place. 4. Discussed to death and not going to happen: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/357436
    – E_net4
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 8:11
  • 1
    A community that isn't inclusive eventually becomes elitist. Comments can't be down voted but their nastiness remains and others that might agree with some of it without realizing how uninviting the words in the comment might be just adds to the echo chamber that I see on here to this day -- my account's not young. I just don't ever want to post anything because I'm always worried I'm wrong for something. -- kinda like how people don't like my "answer" now... It's a point of view from someone who actually believes this place is rather toxic but still needs answers occasionally. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 8:32
  • Welcome to Meta! You're having a rough start here, but that's normal - many new users find this place difficult. While I disagree with some of the points you make, I can see where you're coming from. I hope you can take a little comfort from that. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 8:41
  • 5
    We do not exclude people, but there is a defensive stance against poor quality content. It's this way because the goal is to collect a repository of quality questions and answers. If the comments are indeed nasty, you can flag them to be removed. The problem is that terse comments such as the one suggested above sit in a borderline. They can still be removed once they are no longer needed. Anyway, this is yet another case of calling the site's curation methods to be toxic, so it is obviously not endorsed by the most active members of the community, a fair number of which are curators.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 8:42
  • 3
    "Every question that has been asked before is marked as a duplicate. How does someone that is new to the community even get started here if you're required to ask a question just to be able to contribute?" - you're not. You can edit posts and answer as well. When you hit 15 rep IIRC, you'll be able to aid with basic moderation (flagging questions, answers, and comments). When you get more rep, you'll unlock additional moderation tools, like close votes at 3k and delvotes at 10k. There's more ways to contribute than just by asking Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:44
  • 3
    "Comments can't be down voted but their nastiness remains" - you're not meant to downvote comments, or respond to them for that matter. If you see truly rude comments, flag them. That also gets recorded, and will eventually have consequences for people posting such comments Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:46
  • 2
    "Things getting left unanswered because it isn't worth anyone's time to try find a solution" - no, some things get left because it gets buried in the extremely high traffic SO gets every single day. Also, it's perfectly possible to ask a question no one online at the time knows the answer to. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:47
  • 6
    and SO will be a static site for answers, right? You realize this kind of is the goal right? Having a huge repository of questions and answers people can find their answers on immediately without having to wait for someone to answer their question. Also I think there is a misinterpretation of what the duplicate close is for. it isn't strict punishment, it doesnt make your question invalid, it is a way of creating aliases and new routes for common problems. Not everyone knows the correct terminology, but might use the same description as you. Following the dupe they will now find it.
    – Remy
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:48
  • 2
    Also you make a bold claim that people with x reputation will downvote you just because you don't use their naming convention, where do you pull the data from to make this accusation (votes are anonymous)? In my opinion that is a toxic claim to make, bunching together all high-rep users into some kind of downvote zombie, and "edit post" should never be used to change someone's code beyond formatting, if you (see others) edit to fix naming/code in a question roll it back, or flag a mod for it. Also all help is voluntarily, if no one answers then so be it. Is your car getting fixed for free?
    – Remy
    Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 9:53
  • Re "...even get started here if you're required to ask a question just to be able to contribute?": No, you can answer questions. There are plenty of niches on Stack Overflow where the only thing required to answer is the grunt work of researching on the Internet (no prior knowledge required). There is plenty of time (no competition - no preemption by other answers), in contrast to the major tags (JavaScript, C++, Python, C#, etc.) Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 14:07
  • Re "all of these questions are "homework"": No, "homework" refers to artificial problems (e.g. with strange constraints that will never happen in the real world). Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 14:16
  • 1
    Re "Eventually everything will be asked and answered and Stack Overflow will be a static site for answers, right?: No, a new JavaScript framework is invented every single week, so this will never happen. Also, some day something will replace JavaScript. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 14:16
  • @Zoe I specifically remember when I signed up that I had to ask a question before I was allowed to do anything else, comment, vote, edit, etc. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 14:59
  • 2
    @DavidFisher Yeah, it's not meant to do that. Sounds like there's some bad UX dialog out in the wild again (or possibly an email - SE has had a few misses on those lately). Disregarding whatever told you that, that's not the case. You need 50 rep to comment, you need 1 (which is the lowest rep you can have) to edit, 15 to upvote, and 125 to downvote. There's several ways to get that, and you don't have to ask questions to get it. You can answer and edit as well. You can actually earn up to 1000 rep off edits (which is 500 edits) Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 15:04
  • @Remy It's not hard to see the number of views on the page remain static during the time frame of the negative comment and the down vote. Because out of the 5 people that viewed my question, I have someone commenting on the question not being clear, a down vote, and my response can follow with a quote answering their comment looking for clarity. It doesn't seem unreasonable to make that assumption. Commented Jul 17, 2020 at 15:14

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .