62

I have some dupehammer privileges.

And I stand up and cheer when I read Jay Hanlon's post about making Stack Overflow more welcoming. With the possible exception of Jon Skeet, we were all n00bz once.

This conversation is about Jay Hanlon's call to make this community welcoming, and a request for good practices on how to do that. While dupehammering is the example I give, the question is broader than that.

What's a good and welcoming way of dupehammering a duplicate question from a fairly new SO participant while still offering a welcome?

I've been looking at the questioner's profile to see how long they've been around, and then commenting something like "Welcome to Stack Overflow. Your question duplicates another one. Please look there." This, my attempt to be welcoming, takes time, though.

(Aside: I'd really like it if I could hover to see low-score users' profiles so I didn't have to click into them.)

I sometimes answer a question that's provably a duplicate, just because it's possible the questioner doesn't know enough lore in the field to realize it's a duplicate.

And, sometimes instead of giving an answer, I comment Try searching for yaddayadda, it's probably what you need. The point here is to be a technical thesaurus for the questioner, offering a synonym.

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    This, my attempt to be welcoming, takes time, though. do you use the AutoReviewComments userscript and some of the pre-baked repositories with comments? That can help to cut a bit of the time.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:17
  • 1
    @rene Yes, thanks for your suggestion, I use it wisely. Have a nice day.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:23
  • 21
    Can I not just look at the question and, if it's good and I have the ability, answer it, if it's missing something, ask for it or, if it's bad, down/close vote it? I'm not really happy with explicitly profiling users before handling a question. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 12:27
  • 62
    Vote to close with a friendly smile on your face. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:00
  • 13
    I think the best thing is to say nothing at all - the close reason speaks for itself, it is polite and neutral. This is because the reader can't catch any nuance in your comment. Some "welcome to SO" comments people make tend to be interpreted like "welcome to SO, now get lost". Especially when down votes and close votes keep piling up to accompany it.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 13:35
  • 27
    "What's a good and welcoming way of dupehammering" - oh, what a wonderful laugh you have given me this Friday morning
    – Jeutnarg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:12
  • cast the vote, move on.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:05
  • 14
    We can start by changing the suggested text from "I voted to close this question as off-topic because" to something less direct. I don't know about you, but that's always rubbed me the wrong way ever since they changed the text to that from the original "This question appears to be off-topic because". (In the same vein, I'm not a fan of Will's idownvotedbecau.se domain hack.)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:06
  • 5
    @BoltClock: Three years ago...
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:10
  • 8
    @BoltClock idownvotedbecau.se/yourcommentsucksandihateu
    – user1228
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 19:01
  • 3
    somewhere on superheroes.stackexchange.com: "How to kill evil henchmen and be nice with their bereaved families?"
    – Cœur
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:54
  • 1
    @Andomar Closing a question is not telling them to go away. It is telling them there is a problem with their question in the context of the site.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:38
  • 1
    @Andomar Why do you think a closed question is blaming anyone for anything? You should reassess how you think of closed questions. There's no shame in having a question closed, and certainly not if you are new to the site. It is very easy to be polite and welcoming while guiding people to the help center or a more appropriate network site.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:41
  • 4
    "The point here is to be a technical thesaurus for the questioner, offering a synonym." That was my largest problem when I started out. Not being an English native it was hard for me to learn and find the terms describing the concepts I had in my head. So being dupe(hammere)d was helpfull for me, as it pointed me on what to search for.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:03
  • 3
    @TylerH Sure, by the standards of SO culture. But it sure sucks to be on the receiving end when you have no idea this is the norm. The word "closed" doesn't sound like it is no big thing
    – Passer By
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:33

13 Answers 13

37

Voting to close a question as a duplicate isn't necessarily a judge of the question's quality or even someone's ability to search for similar questions. We do so to prevent good solutions from being scattered around the site, and to direct people at central, canonical questions and answers.

The first thing is to not take the opportunity to deride someone's ability to search. As we all know, Stack Overflow's search capabilities can sometimes leave a little to be desired, and maybe they didn't quite know what correct term to search for in Google to find the right question. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and let the duplicate closure point them in the right direction. That helps to make sure that the term they searched for will end up directing future visitors to the right place.

If the question isn't exactly the same as the target, but uses the same general concepts (or one of the answers there is the solution in their case as well), I find it helpful to leave a comment explaining this along with the duplicate closure. Here's one example where I thought it wasn't immediately obvious why the answer at the target addressed that question, so I tried to make it clear. That little bit of assistance can be enough to turn someone's frustration with a closure into happiness at finding a solution.

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    -1 isn't from me, but: "Voting to close a question as a duplicate isn't necessarily a judge of the question's quality ... we do so to prevent good solutions from being scattered around the site." - That's true of course, but the new user that just sees a bunch of close votes (often accompanied by downvotes) isn't going to automatically think "yay, close votes and comments telling me to search the site, these people are really great at keeping answers centralised!" It feels demoativating and unwelcoming, even if it's not meant to be. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:03
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    @berry120: Yes, but you're overthinking this. The real rub comes in when people elect to engage in comments which do deride or insult their ability to search. The closure itself of a duplicate is largely positive and can lead to the OP actually getting a resolution.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:09
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    +1 for "Voting to close a question as a duplicate isn't necessarily a judge of the question's quality" Good duplicates showing research effort should be upvoted. What I mean by this is a representation of a problem that cannot reasonably be traced to a separate, answered question.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:10
  • 3
    Here are some more examples of comments, my own, that help the asker connect the dots: stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/86963941 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/86303667 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/83655907
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:17
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    Amusingly, one such comment I made last month was completely disregarded by the asker as they continued to campaign for a different user's duplicate link to be removed. When you go out of your way to be kind to someone and they completely disregard you, it's no wonder people get frustrated. But, besides that edge case (of which I can only think of two or three), such comments I leave are almost universally well-received.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 16:30
  • 5
    I'd just like to add that while I sometimes reluctantly buy into the "different questions with the same conceptual answer = duplicate" mindset since that's the community consensus, I resent how it often results in askers having to perform non-trivial mental gymnastics just to connect the dots from their question to the duplicate target, and then close-voters judging them for not being able or willing to do so (with comments like "It should be pretty obvious that [totally not obvious concept]"). Maybe these comments that we leave to guide askers are sort of like our own little protest.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 5:28
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    Some "dot connecting" comments from my comment history, in the vein of Bolt Clock's examples: stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/84192849 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/70555789 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/72390535 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/71144284 stackoverflow.com/posts/comments/86680997 . By the way, my experience is similar to what @BoltClock describes: I never got a negative reaction to such comments.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 6:55
  • 1
    I generally try to add a helpful comment when I dupe-hammer, especially if the question is from a newbie. And sometimes I get comments in response from the OP thanking me for linking them to the dupe.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 8:39
25

Isn't the problem merely that the message generated by Stack Overflow itself is unfriendly?

Suppose I close as a duplicate. That is usually just because I'm better at finding an already existing answer than the OP is. There can be a ton of reasons for this. The OP might not have thought to search. The OP might not know the right search terms. The OP might not realize that the answers here do in fact answer the question.

So the message should be friendly and respond to that situation. It should say something like:

Welcome to Stack Overflow! User UserName has determined that you can get an answer to your question by studying the already existing answers to this question: link. Please consider carefully what UserName is saying by pointing you in this direction. If you still feel you're not getting the help you need, feel free to ask a new question!

I don't think we, as dupehammerers, need to feel regretful of our power. The service we provide is part of the value of SO and helps keep it going efficiently. It is up to SO itself to support us with friendlier, more accurate messages.

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  • 2
    Yes, this would be great. Dup-closing is often a good thing for the OP—it gets them a great answer, very quickly—and if the wording makes it feel like a punishment instead, fixing that wording is the most important step.
    – abarnert
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 6:09
  • See now also meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366716/…
    – matt
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 10:19
  • 1
    I agree that, if anything, this is a problem with the auto-generated messages (not only duplicate, and also the "I'm voting to close this question because" text). Although the suggested message can be improved - it's not only applicable to dup-hammering, so it should cater to multiple close voters (as the current message does), and we should encourage editing to point out differences or asking a new question if they have a different question. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:31
16

This whole problem just screams separation of concerns;

Concern 1

  • Professionals want to use a site that is easy to get an answer from without asking a question if possible.
  • We want our questions and answers to be in a clinical format, so that we can consume them and/or convey them without wasting time.
  • We do not want seven ambiguous options to choose from, we don't even want two.
  • We are your prime business, we are the ones contributing and looking for jobs.

Concern 2

  • We want to build our community and encourage less advanced users to get into programming, and into the Stack Overflow prime business pool (we do want that too, our professions need succession plans).

  • Getting yourself to that stage involves learning how to think critically and take criticism about your methods without taking it personally.

  • If you enter an environment of critical thinkers without the ability to think critically, and a tendency to be offended, you will likely be offended quite quickly.

If you really want these people who are seriously struggling with professional criticism to get to a stage where they can be criticised, adapt based upon that criticism and contribute, then you will have to find a way to shield them from it until they can take it.

Curbing professional criticism too far will just ruin the essence of what so many people have spent countless hours creating.

I suggest you maybe do the hard thing that makes sense if you must; make a "Stack Overflow Academy", perhaps just for the programming site, but make it difficult for people to get out of there without the full realisation that they will be criticised on the google facing site where we get our quality answers.

It's not a problem with the amazing contributors and moderators, most of whom I feel would be insulted by anyone insinuating they do anything other than read the question, try to understand it and give relevant feedback. I do not think there was any need to suggest to people they needed bias training via a controversial psychological test which does not reproduce well, that was an insulting end to an otherwise potentially constructive argument.

EDIT

On a side note; I also don't see why more people reading and not contributing trash is a problem for this format, I rarely have to contribute as Google usually points me to an answer on your site with a simple search, but I have an account and look at your ads. I am also probably more likely to read the ads if I'm just reading stuff and not just trying to ask a question or give an answer.

Please don't forget, we are Stack Overflow, not Facebook or Reddit, we are not here for dopamine hits from upvotes, we are here for answers. If Facebook or Reddit encounters a Stack Overflow, by definition, they lose.

EDIT

I have tried to put this all together in an answer here that poses a question to try and solve the new user pipeline problem.

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    This gets to the heart of the issue. My only problem is: who will answer questions on "Stack Overflow Academy"? No professional programmer would enjoy spending their time teaching / fixing typos / marking duplicates. I can even see Rep on such a site being considered a negative [oh, so you can't earn Rep on the main site?].
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 23:42
  • 1
    @jpp not if you did it properly, you could create a micro version of the main site where people learn how to be critical, and also create moderators there who learn how to moderate those who are less clinical without polluting the main pool while trying to get it right.
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:41
  • 1
    You're right. I'm not saying it's impossible. But it will need some careful thought. What we don't want is substandard answers going on "SO Lite" - I'm more in favour of just having a different interface for new users [e.g. hide votes on question, more friendly messages].
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:43
  • @jpp that's why I said it was the "hard thing" it's a big idea, not a concise answer, maybe it should be a question? I'm open to feedback, mostly thanks to what SO has taught me about critical thinking :)
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:45
  • 1
    Criticizing (people or questions) is not what critical thinking means. It means questioning assumptions and examining reasoning, looking at alternatives and evaluating them. Developing well does require a lot of genuine critical thinking but only a very small proportion of questions and answers on SO require it. More often they are either informational or similar. The very best answers and sometimes questions get into "why" or "this assumption is faulty" but it's really rare. I'd love to see more.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:58
  • 1
    @elin I said "involves learning how to think critically and take criticism" if you learn to think critically, then you should be also by proxy be more open to third party criticism.
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:39
  • 1
    "It means questioning assumptions and examining reasoning" is not something the people who are getting in a strop about their questions being closed seem to be capable of doing, even before posting that question, so I am pretty happy that my point is valid.
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:11
  • 2
    Thanks for linking this - never got this far with so many comments above it. Maybe the idea should be its own post, rather than "hidden", here. @jpp I think you underestimate who would answer questions in such a venue. Those who answer might not be the top in their field - but how many of these questioners need the top in the field on their case? Dupes certainly not, nor simple, basic "how to" discussions. The people who answer in places like that evolve and provide those who eventually end up at the professional end. Because they learn how to sift, research and test. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:34
  • @CindyMeister I do too, I have 3 daughters, my eldest, the 9 year old wants to be an engineer, I know people that would happily help them get here, and I would help too, and I could learn to be better from it myself probably by making myself explain it - I have posed the idea, but maybe not as succinctly as you: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366836/…
    – user1641172
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:39
  • 2
    @jpp the notion that a "learners" group would not do well has already been debunked in both reality and and here on Stack Exchange. In reality there are plenty of people who enjoy teaching beginners programming courses as a hobby and as a profession. Here on Stack Exchange there are sites such as Language Learning and English Language Learners. Not to mention the countless tales people have shared about coming to Stack Overflow and learning how to program... half the site's users probably learned to program here!
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:42
  • 1
    @TylerH: The issue with the language learning sites is that just because someone is still learning the language doesn't mean they haven't already put hundreds of hours into learning it already, and in fact there are a number of very deep questions on ELL (at the very least) that a noob-programmers site would not be able to benefit from. So I believe saying that learner-oriented sites are "proven" to work well on SE is overstating the case, at best. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 3:36
10

As someone who is still somewhat new-ish and having some of my posts being closed. I can safely say that it is not what, but how you do it, that makes it friendly or unfriendly.

I have no problem if my question gets closed for being a duplicate, for obvious reasons. However, if I get downvotes without someone telling me why, not only do I not learn how to improve my questions in the future. It also feels anything but welcoming.

Just my two cents.

1
  • It also feels anything but welcoming. - How you perceive and internalize someone clicking an arrow on a website is 100% your issue, not the person that clicked the arrows responsibility. And for the record, there is not a single down vote cast on the system that does not tell you why it was cast. The reason is in the hover of the down arrow. This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful (click again to undo) that is all the reason that should be expected, it is clear and concise.
    – user177800
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:00
8

I've been looking at the questioner's profile to see how long they've been around, and then commenting something like "Welcome to SO. Your question duplicates another one. Please look there." This, my attempt to be welcoming, takes time, though.

I think you're correct that this is still the best course of action, even if it takes some time.

I usually try to use something along the following lines:

Welcome to SO! Afraid this will likely be closed as (off-topic/duplicate/etc.) as it's asking a (question that's already been answered here/question about cars and this is a programming site/opinion rather than a factual answer.) If you can edit the question to provide some (specific code/more concrete information) then you may have more luck getting an answer.

It takes a bit of time, but in all honesty I rarely look at the profile specifically - I tend to assume that if they've got less than 100 rep or so, they're new.

What I hope to achieve with the above rough template is the following:

  • The problem is with the question, not with the asker
  • The problem with the question can be fixed (assuming it's not below a certain threshold already)
  • if the asker puts the effort in to fix the question, then people will often put in the effort to provide an answer.

At the very least, my hope is that it puts a human touch behind what seems to be an unwelcoming barrage of close votes with no real explanation. (I could of course be entirely wrong on this, but it's what I try nonetheless.)

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  • 1
    I use a bookmarklet for that - link in this jsFiddle; expanded source in my blog post. Since it references the tour, I check first to make sure the OP doesn't have the Informed badge - maybe I should automate that part :) .
    – cxw
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 17:16
  • @user45914123 - a review of your questions on stackoverflow, there are not that many, could almost all be answered with either a pass through with a step debugger, more reading of the documentation the rest are too broad because you keep coming back with more and more additional different questions in the comments and it devolves into chat. I do not follow the tags you posted in but if I did, pretty much every question is arguably worthy of a down vote and or a close vote, especially if it is a duplicate. Just because you do not understand why it is a duplicate does not make it a duplicate.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:56
  • 2
    also 3. aggressive comments from a user when he clearly don't know how to read, kind of the pot calling the kettle black there from where I am sitting?
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:57
  • Also there's a difference between I being aggressive and he being aggressive, this is called self justification rationalization, the Be Nice policy has not exemptions because he did it to me first for no reason.
    – user177800
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:10
  • There is a bottom line it is stated in the hover text of the down vote arrow. It is subjective but that is kind of the point. It clearly states that someone subjectively voted on the question and why. It does not say, anything unwelcoming anymore than the up vote arrow says something welcoming.
    – user177800
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:12
6

On RPG.SE we try to put together a bunch of "pro forma" comments, with links to meta questions in them, to try to say welcome and point at further information about why and all that. But it's a pain and takes time and so isn't always done.

"Go use a custom piece of JavaScript code" is currently Stack Overflow's answer to this; they could actually help by adding functionality where sites could put some standard comments and maybe throw some auto flags for common "welcoming" problems, like low rep user gets question closed, low rep user gets answer deleted, etc. I'm super busy and half the time my morning modding is from the can on an iPhone and I'm just not going to type out and link big messages; the system could help me here.

If a new user is struggling based on system activity - throw me a flag on them so I can go check. Heck, throw them a custom message early on when they get downvotes "Here's what this means on Stack Exchange, not that you're a bad person..."

Stack Exchange is for busy people to help other people; if the demand is "take way more time to do it" it just won't fly. The system needs to help us do it.

2
  • What is "the can on an iPhone" (in this context)? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 15:46
  • 2
    “The can” = the toilet. “An iPhone” = an iPhone.
    – mxyzplk
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 15:52
5

I've been looking at the questioner's profile to see how long they've been around, and then commenting something like "Welcome to SO. Your question duplicates another one. Please look there." This, my attempt to be welcoming, takes time, though.

That's great—but, as you say, it takes time.

I think it's much simpler to just present the dup-close as a helpful thing, instead of being apologetic about it. Write a comment like "That question has been asked before, and there's a great answer on the other question, so I'm just linking you over there", and then dup-hammer the question.

And then it doesn't matter who the OP is. Sure, if we're focusing on my annoyance, it makes a difference whether it was Joe Random Noob or Jon Skeet, but who cares about my annoyance? Either way, the dup is a dup, it should be closed as a dup, and everyone—including the OP—will benefit, so just focus on that instead.

(And that also means I can leave off the "Welcome to SO!" part. I suspect that many new users don't take that as a friendly human welcome, but as at formulaic and meaningless flight-attendant-speak. And putting it together with something that seems like criticism—or, worse, that seems like an apology for criticism that's only implied in the apology—just makes it patronizing. If I can arrange things so I don't care whether I'm commenting to Joe Random Noob or Jon Skeet, I know I'm not going to unintentionally be patronizing.)

(This doesn't work for most other close reasons—most of them are ultimately helping everyone but the OP avoid wasting time with the question; only dup-closing is usually helping the OP as well.)


I sometimes answer a question that's provably a dupe, just because it's possible the questioner doesn't know enough lore in the field to realize it's a dup.

That sounds like a bad idea. You're giving them the same information, generally not as well written (are you really going to write something on the fly that's as good as the curated 1000-upvote multiply-edited answer on a canonical dup, even if it is a tiny bit more specific?). And you're spending a lot more time and effort. And someone else is just going to come along and close the question (and maybe downvote your answer) anyway.

2

Very often an explanatory comment is a good idea to explain exactly why it's a duplicate, and what the OP's mixup in terminology was. You can phrase this to make it clear that you're answering their question by linking a duplicate.


If you want to encourage the OP for asking a nice question, even though it's a duplicate, say something positive in that comment, like "Good question" as part of your comment. (If you're not dup-hammering but just casting a regular close-vote, you can edit those "Possible duplicate of ..." comments to add something, but remember it will be deleted if/when the question is closed as a duplicate.)

If the OP couldn't reasonably have found the duplicate without already knowing the answer to their question, then phrase your comment in terms of "I'm helping you by knowing how to find the duplicate". e.g.

Good question; the usual term for this is "loop unrolling". I found an answer for you on another question...

Or if you don't want to take so much credit for "finding" the answer, you could still say "see the nice answer(s) on the linked duplicate for more details" if you want to make the comment explicitly friendly / helpful.

Similar phrasing is possible if the question was simply a hard-to-find duplicate that the OP could have found given the terms they were already using in the question. If it's a well-presented question you can and sometimes should still be encouraging even if it's an exact duplicate.

Such questions often deserve upvotes, unless you feel the "lack of research effort" downvote reason cancels out a nicely-presented question. (But keep in mind the OP can only search based on their understanding of the problem. Usually debugging questions wouldn't need to be asked in the first place if the OP understood what was happening. This means that many debugging-type questions that need a [mcve] are usually the least valuable kinds of SO questions in terms of future value to the site, though, because you can't find them unless you know what the problem is. But you can still upvote a debugging question for presenting a clean MCVE nicely to make it easy to answer. It's nice when this happens and often does get upvotes, even though it's not really interesting to most experienced users in the tag, just a nice change from the usual crud.)


Further down the spectrum are boring questions that aren't very well asked, but are at least still easy to answer. (e.g. common points of confusion that tend to be FAQs).

If you're feeling charitable, give a one-line summary of how to fix their particular code or address their version of the question if it's not a debugging question, as well as linking the duplicate.


For questions that should not be encouraged in any way, keep it neutral. Bad questions shouldn't be welcomed, as @BenVoigt explains but the users that post them can be corrected / welcomed with positive suggestions for what to do better. Or of course just downvote and don't say anything.

Linking a page from http://idownvotedbecau.se/, such as http://idownvotedbecau.se/nodebugging or http://idownvotedbecau.se/imageofcode is a quick way to point the user at a specific reason for why their question was poorly received. Those pages are phrased very positively, encouraging users to fix their questions and explaining why those things are a problem. e.g. you might have done some debugging, but if you don't say so in your question then it looks like you're just being lazy and doesn't help potential answerers know what you tried.

If you want to show the OP how they could have found the duplicate, keep your phrasing neutral, e.g. phrase it in terms of "searching on term1 term2 worked for me" or "searching on xyz abc found some useful results", rather than you should have The latter is often true, but possibly less likely to improve their behaviour than just showing them what search terms worked. Even if those search terms are already in the question title and the asker appears to be super lazy.

Possibly they tried but somehow missed the results for some reason. If so, then maybe they'll try again and realize their mistake.

If they find neutrally-worded responses to bad questions offensive, then not having them participate in SO is a good thing. (It's important that other comments aren't rude to them; a neutral comment mixed in with rude / hostile comments will not be well received by most people.)

1
  • 1
    I really like the «But keep in mind the OP can only search based on their understanding of the problem» quote in there. Commented Jun 13, 2018 at 2:21
-1

This question is a request for good practices for commenting and question-closing to implement Jay Hanlon's mission to be more welcoming.

TL;DR

  1. the internet is unwelcoming by definition

  2. you cannot control the internalization of peoples thoughts and feelings about something that empirically has no thought or feeling associated with it, implicitly or explicitly.

  3. never down vote, close vote, delete vote or comment whatsoever on anything ...

there is this saying about a baby and the bath water ...

This question illustrates that you can not control the thoughts and actions of anonymous users on the internet and implicitly indicts those that use the site the way the site has always been designed to work are guilty of implicit bias, against what? Everyone named user\d+? Everyone with a geometric pattern as their avatar? Really?

If someone feels not welcomed because some stranger clicked an arrow that is their problem, full stop.

Entitlement is the elephant in the room, not implicit bias.

I see a question, the problem is clearly someone comparing String with == and I close vote it as the duplicate as it is. And move on.

Specifically what "implicit bias" am I guilty of if someone decides the feel "unwelcome" by that?

I propose a different perspective. I think they feel entitled to a customized answer that they can copy and paste and not think about and they did not get it so they feel offended/neglected/unserviced/????, who cares, we will never know, but they know that will not play so they scream unwelcomed over and over on meta that they did not get the customized answer for free that they were entitled to.

The only problem with implicit bias in this scenario is with the ones that ascribe malicious intentions to someone that clicked a arrow or link on a screen without a thought about the person behind the content, and thinking they are out to get you personally. I mean that is the mantra right? Vote on the question/answer not the user!.

How about the official response being to the unwelcome noise with that. Votes are based on the content, not you personally.

I never comment on down/close/delete votes ever. I never respond to *downvoter explain!, they never want an explanation they want a name so they can attack. If that is unwelcoming then just remove the down voting arrow, the close/delete vote link and be done with it.

If someone asks in a more thoughtful way they get an auto comment pointing them to the hover text on the down vote arrow and a link to a discussion the stackexchange meta site about how asking for explanations is counter productive. Anything else brings pain and misery and someone almost immediately breaking the Be Nice policy.

How you feel is because of you and no one else, how others feel is because of them and no one else.

You cannot control others thoughts and feelings about things that are completely based on their own implicit biases and internalizations.

So if down votes make someone feel unwelcome you will just have to remove the ability to down vote. Slippery slope ahead ... close votes, delete votes, ...

What about people that post comments asking for more information or a stacktrace, their implicit bias that someone writing code that should know what a stacktrace is offends many that do not know what a stacktrace is or just do not feel they need to provide anything else to get the free help they are entitled to.

So there goes comments, they can make people feel unwelcome, they have to go.

That blog post explicitly states that everyone that uses SO is guilty of making someone feel unwelcome and it is their fault because of their own because of some implicit bias.

Well that makes me feel unappreciated and unwelcome as well, did the guy think about that before he posted that, I think I need an apology and a retraction from him and he needs to think about what he writes more next time. Right?

I mean I am very progressive, and a member of a recently defined protected group myself, but I have to say, this is a classic case of, how open minded before your brain falls out?

I mean really, if thinking that how someone feels about a arrow being clicked on the internet is the entire communities and the company that runs the web site's fault, and that is what that the blog post that prompted this question explicitly states, that is going to be one big ass class action lawsuit for therapy services when someone supposedly kills themselves over a closed question.

The sad thing is when all those that contribute the free time and content to the site go away and stop playing the janitor what then? No amount of introspective blog posts is going to entice them back, hello W3Schools reputation.

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    This whole answer seems based on entirely faulty premises, not to mention a jaded attitude.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:56
  • 2
    ... As illustrated by the changed username.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:50
-2

Agreed with @Andomar . A major issue I have sometimes is that something is a hair's width away from the question I am trying to answer. I'd rather look at 10 possible answers that are likely the same (but eventually find the right answer to MY question) than settle for looking at one non-closed answer with 90% of the response people arguing about whether that question should be closed. People are too easily rewarded for doing SOMETHING to a question on SO, without providing information.

"Mark as duplicate" is a lazy idea and a lazy way of contributing to SO. [BOOM to my downvotes :)]

Instead of "mark as duplicate", The mentality should be "link to question X for Y reason". Two questions might be about python and databases, but the important distinction is actually an issue with postgres vs mySql. The two questions could Easily construed as duplicates for python database libraries but there are nuggets of information in there that are useful (but hidden if one of the two questions is closed)

People complain that having duplicate answers on a Q/A site is bad because 'Q/A is not for conversations'. If you want to say So is a FAQ and not a message board, fine, but It IS about allowing search engines to index answers and questions and tie the language of how questions are asked together, even if they are slightly different. The more discussion is allowed, the more language that differentiates problem is introduced, making obscure issues more searchable and distinguishable from broader questions.

I also don't buy the "not a conversation" thing. How can we possibly provide a good answer to a question without truly understanding the context and circumstances the question lives in? And how can you possibly do that without asking questions of the questioner... having a discussion?

If I'm reading a line of questioning and I see something that eliminates that answer as a solution to MY problem, I can move on - or if I say "wow that's exactly my problem" I can be more sure that the answer at the end will be extremely helpful.

If you want a site that is sort of an emergent FAQ, have a selection process where awesome questions with awesome answers are flagged as such, but flagging for "your question sucks" just feels bad.

Stack Overflow is a great tool, and there is time to turn it around. my suggestion is we need to think about it as a discussion site that, through a method of simulated annealing, bubbles up the greatest questions (e.g. "mark for frequently asked question" button - I think this is what the documentation feature was trying to do) but leaves all of the duplicates and 'thank you' messages etc. Throwing those out or closing down a question is not just annoying - it's actually throwing out signal in an arena where we need as much as we can get. There is very valuable information in how many people say "Thanks". SO shouldn't throw it away.

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    " How can we possibly provide a good answer to a question without truly understanding the context and circumstances the question lives in?" If a question needs a conversation to be answerable, the question was poorly written. This is not a discussion site, and we certainly shouldn't strife for it to become one.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:49
  • Now I begin my end of the discussion... Why? The dogma of "NO DISCUSSIONS... EVER" worked fine when SO was starting and there weren't a lot of canonical answers for super-common questions, but I think that fundamental idea needs to change if you want SO to progress. Seriously, I need to know what the reasoning is for why discussion is bad when they whole transcript is searchable and indexable. Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:14
  • 2
    Because we don't want users to have to search through a question's comments, and a answer's comments to find a answer to their problem. Stack Overflow is a repository of quality Q/A. Comments aren't part of that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:16
  • Going back to the duplicates issue. I think for a good number of questions, the question is slightly different and people are incentivized way too much to just click the duplicate button before really considering what might be different. Problem is, digging into what might be different requires discourse. Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:40
-10

Try just closing without also throwing in a downvote. I sometimes even throw in an upvote to counter any unwelcoming downvotes. Fortunately the ratio of rep gain/loss for upvotes/downvotes is quite high.

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    "I sometimes even throw in an up-vote to counter any unwelcoming down-votes." Don't do that. Don't "pity-vote". Vote based on the post's quality. not based on what votes it already has.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:46
  • 4
    down votes are the feedback loop in the system to allow anonymous automated moderation of content that should not be in the system, you are screwing it up, the rule is vote on the content, not the person, you are breaking that rule and the system by pity voting. and by calling them unwelcoming down votes you are also playing into the false narrative of malicious intent by the down voter and perpetuating an imaginary victim mentality of a vocal minority that has more personal issues than we can deal with if they are personally offended by an anonymous stranger clicking an arrow.
    – user177800
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:23
-26

Here's a I've considered for a while: We should allow answers to duplicated questions.

Duplicated questions are different than other types of close reasons. The question is most likely just fine, but we've already had a similar question.

Very often, the close target is a long and detailed canonical answer that explains many in-depth concepts and cases. This is useful, but can be more than you've singed up for. Taking the information from the other question and answer and applying it to the specific case of the OP can be done in the form of an answer.

I believe allowing answers and some small changes to the UI can make getting your question closed as duplicate a much better experience than it is today.
In my opinion, this approach would have several advantages:

  • The question will still be marked as duplicated, but maybe in a more subtle way.
  • The system still gets the signal that this is a duplicate: the page can get redirected, the question will be less visible, etc.
  • The OP gets an answer to their specific question, with their variable names, their example input, etc.
  • The OP gets to mark an answer as accepted.
  • The OP can ask for clarifications in comments if they get in trouble, which is something that is missing today for a closed question.
  • It would be nice if the answer could quote or reference a part of the answers to the close target - we still don't want to encourage writing duplicated answers, just adjustments to the current question.
  • For answerers: you will still get reputation points, and the nice feeling of answering a question rather than just closing it.

Clarifications:

  • In some cases the duplicate is a single line of code or even a single function, and then this proposal is less beneficial. In many cases, there is a duplicate, but there is still room for "specialization" (thanks to BoltClock for that word). For example, password regex is a popular question, but it is always a little different - maybe you can't have consecutive characters, or you need more numbers, etc.
  • Of course we need tuning: maybe we don't want decreased visibility like we have today, or maybe upvotes are worth a less.
  • In my opinion, there is no harm in adding answers to a closed duplicated question:
    • We already allow answering closed questions when you've started writing the answer before the question was closed.
    • The goal here is not to duplicate answers: the plagiarism rules are still in place. The goal is to give specific customizations where needed.
    • Obviously, if you have a completely new solution, you should post in on an existing question, not a new one.
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    I like this, up until the last point. Instead of granting reputation for potential duplicate answers, allow and encourage answers but make them community-wiki as soon as they're posted. The reason to answer a duplicate again is, in my mind, to add more context or specialize the answer for the OP and making it clear that this is a community attempt to help (but not for profit) seems appropriate here.
    – ssube
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 20:23
  • @ssube - That's something I considered as well. In my opinion, allowing some reputation points removes the temptation that exists today that leads to many question not getting closed, but getting only answers (some high-rep users fall for that as well).
    – Kobi
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 20:47
  • 1
    There was some discussion about this in a recent Meta Q&A. One complication is that consolidation of solutions into (ideally) a single Q&A remains an useful goal. See also the comments to Andomar's answer here.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 22:57
  • 3
    I'm not a fan of the portions of this that reduce the visibility of the duplicate question and its specific answer, because it goes against the principle that answers should be useful and relevant to future readers, and this can be true to a certain degree of specificity or specialization of a question.. I regularly answer questions with such tailored answers, linking to would-be duplicates in the answer body, and those tailored answers don't have to be seen by just the asker but remain just as accessible to everyone else.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 5:14
  • @BoltClock - Reduced visibility is what's happening with duplicates today, and I was stating it doesn't have to change. But this need some proper design, of course. I see that this is being heavily downvoted , but I bet a year from now we'll have features along these lines.
    – Kobi
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 5:32
  • At least in the tags I hang out on dupes where the match question isn't quite right usually get answered in the comments; sometimes a poster just needs an example or explanation or to know why answers about an older version don't apply to them or really why it's a dupe. Sometimes they need to know how to rewrite the question. Other times it's a bad closing because e.g. the poster asked about a framework and the dupe is about the base language. In practice it usually works okay.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:13
  • @Elin - Exactly - Many questions get answered in comments, but this isn't what comments are for. What I'm suggesting is already happening, and I think it should be an official feature.
    – Kobi
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:09
  • 1
    @Kobi I'm agreeing with you. :)
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:21
  • The whole point of closing duplicates is to redirect answers to one (canonical) question. The point is to prevent answers being posted everywhere.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:47
  • @Cerbrus - Is "the point" to redirect (which will still happen), or to prevent new answers? Would a beginner need and understand all data in article-type answers like this or this (which are great answers, don't get me wrong)? What are the downsides of including a short specific answer instead of comments like we do today (e.g. "in your case you can't use await, but .request.then(...) will work nicely")?
    – Kobi
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:55
  • 1
    @Kobi: Rewarding users that don't do research by answering extremely common questions? Encouraging this kind of low quality questions...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 7:59
  • @Cerbrus - 1. Preventing common questions is a different case entirely, which should be done before the question is asked. 2. People who ask question have no idea how many duplicated we've closed before or how common their question is. 3. If the question is low quality it should downvoted and closed. If the question is good but duplicated, I think it can be closed and answered.
    – Kobi
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:11
  • @Kobi: 1: I agree, but I think that's a unrealistic goal. We'll always have dupes we need to close. 2: No, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't close them. 3: How about low quality (obvious) duplicates? A dupe hammer is more effective than waiting for 5 close-votes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:28
-47

Duplicate closes make me feel bad whenever I see them. It is human nature to be offended when a conversation is shut down by non-participants.

And for what benefit are these bad feelings inflicted? What harm is there in discussing a good question for the 100th time? People who don't want to participate should walk away instead of dispersing the meeting.

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    I mean, if you're not bored answering the same question 100 times, knock yourself out. I'd much rather just point someone to an existing answer so no further time is wasted saying the same things over and over and over again.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 17:16
  • 17
    Since when SO Q/A is a conversation ???
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 17:19
  • 1
    @BoltClock: Stack Overflow doesn’t have to be a lifetime commitment. You’re welcome to get bored and move on if you think that the newbies keep asking why they can’t return local char arrays (“but it works for me!”) and you would rather devote the remaining short years of your life to something more productive, like sorting your record albums. (from joelonsoftware.com/2018/04/23/strange-and-maddening-rules)
    – Andomar
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 17:20
  • 20
    Unfortunately the harm is it spreads the answers out. Having all the answers in one area is part of what makes SO easier to search. I would have to open 10 different pages sometimes to find the answer I actually need, instead of finding the maybe 3rd solution down on 1 thread that specifically mentions what I'm going through. It hurts the answersers (ugh, stop asking over and over!) and it hurts the questioners (why do I have to search through 100 of the same thing?). Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:04
  • 3
    @Jemmeh: Google does a great job of putting the best Q&A on top. Although duplicate closes mean this is often 2010's consensus
    – Andomar
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:26
  • 2010's consensus? Sorry I am not understanding what you mean with that. Google helps but the voting system in place on a single page is also extremely helpful in finding the best solution instead of looking at 10 different pages where you can't compare the votes. I have ran into questions with a lot of dupes in the past, it's actually a huge slowdown to find information through 10 pages. Sure I still have 10 answers but now I also have 10 questions I have to read through instead of just 1...and they are slightly different questions. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:48
  • 2
    @Jemmeh: if you keep a question from 2010 as "canonical", its answer votes (and its accepted answer) will mostly reflect how people voted in 2010
    – Andomar
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:50
  • Oh I see what you mean. On that I have seen a lot of new answers on old questions. Someone runs into that problem, has to do a different solution, and then updates that thread with the new way. Usually this is a small change. If the whole process is significantly different enough it will often warrant it's own new question, especially with new versions of things. A question about how to do something in AngularJS could be very different than Angular 4. They get a different question and tags. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 19:15
  • 15
    Having 100 copies of the same question means if the answer has to change (new release, new security exploit, or for whatever reason), you now have 100 copies to go update all over the place. And people searching won't know they stumbled across one of the obscure 85 questions that don't have an updated answer as opposed to the ideal canonical one that's carefully maintained.
    – Troyen
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 20:10
  • 6
    what @Jemmeh said - I also personally benefit of dupe closures. I use Stack Overflow to find answers to my programming questions. It is very convenient to me that search engine typically shows only 2-3 links where I can find my answer. If there were many identical questions this would pollute search results and make it much harder for me to find an answer and given that I search for answers almost daily, yes this is a big deal to me.
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 21:40
  • 8
    (Instead of dumping 100th identical answer into 100th identical question I would much prefer answerers to go to dupe target, check answers over there and try posting a better one - now that would be really convenient to me.)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 21:40
  • Mind expanding on this in my mother meta discussion about the emotions people feel regarding dupe closures? Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 2:58
  • 2
    Having duplicate answers scattered all over the place causes two problems. Sure, it makes them harder to find, but more importantly, it makes it harder to judge their relative merits. When all the answers are in one place then they participate in a single voting pool. It's much harder to judge their merits when the voting is split up over several pools.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 8:49
  • 4
    the close voters by definition are participants, and prolific highly regarded at least in the past in order to earn the privilege to cast a close vote. That said, your entire answer is based on a fundamentally Flawed Premise, the site is not a forum and until a blog post stating differently, conversations are specifically off-topic.
    – user177800
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:28
  • 1
    Oh look, an "I don't like this" delete vote. If you are reading this and considering casting another one, please keep some decorum and hold back.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 0:12

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