39

Here is the question.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45745040/code-after-if-block-inside-a-for-loop-doesnt-work (10k only since the question has been removed)

To make a long story short, the OP has an if statement at the beginning of the loop. The if statement ends with return. So the rest of the loop does not execute. The OP is asking SO to explain why his loop does not execute.

My question is: Do we want this type of question on SO?

If the answer is "no", then what is the appropriate closing reason?

My own answer is: No, we don't want this type of question. I think that the only questions worth keeping are the ones the are useful to more than one asker. The question I linked to (and many others of the same type) describes a mistake that is too specific to one programmer. Thousand of other programmers will have thousand of other mistakes. And even if someone managed to make the same mistake, they will not be able to find this question, as the applicable search terms are equivalent to knowing the answer.

In short: this question is too specific, not generally useful. But, there is no closing reason for this.

Update: I went and VFCd that question as "unable to reproduce or typographical error" variety of "off topic". Not a good fit, but I just could not help myself.

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    My question is: why don't you want this type of question on SO? Why did you raise this on Meta?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 21:36
  • 2
    To put a finer point on @MartijnPieters' question (and since I happen to roam the Java tag)...what specifically do you take umbrage to with this question? Is it poorly formed? Is it too broad? Is it spammy? Is it none of those things?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 21:54
  • 3
    @Martijn @Makoto It's probably simply a silly question. Do we think silly questions are helpful for future research? The other researchers silly enough won't find and learn from that anyways. Just my 2¢
    – user0042
    Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 22:04
  • 14
    I guess the problem is that it undershoots the range of what would be expected from enthusiast/professional programmers by some margin. Unfortunately, many groups are saddled with these 'understanding/debug fail' questions, and I doubt that SO wants them all closed immediately 'cos 'bums on sites'. I mean, it would empty the C tag amost entirely:( Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 22:13
  • 7
    I think the answer is somewhat obvious to anybody that reads this. The next time you run into trouble and need help, do you want an answer from somebody that thinks the behavior of the return statement is fascinating? Or do you think you might need an answer from a programmer that is an expert at all things, say, [java]. You can't have both, one of them quit contributing to SO a while ago. As one SO employee noted, the "race to the bottom" demands that it is the former. Too complimentary in my book, people like winning races, the word "death-march" is a better fit. I know what I need. Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 22:29
  • @HansPassant could you answer tube second part of my question, then?
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 22:34
  • 6
    The close dialog was carefully designed to give you a hard time to stop the race to the bottom. It just doesn't matter what you pick, nobody here will blame you for picking anything available. I did, close vote count is now 2. It only takes 6 more people to make it disappear. But they have to care enough about their future, attention spans at SO are measured in minutes. Commented Aug 17, 2017 at 22:41
  • 5
  • 10
    Closure is intended to prevent answers. There are many reasons for wanting to prevent answers (i.e. all answers that a given question are going to get will be spam, question isn't on-topic, etc), but the fact that you think a question is just too darn silly isn't a reason to prevent others from answering it. Honestly? This question might get an answer, someone might gets some points for it, but then it is just going to fade into obscurity and no one will ever look at it again, just think about all that effort wasted for no good reason.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 0:25
  • 1
    The question is, do we want them to learn what's wrong? Or do we want them to take a working solution from us and just move on? Personally for these types of questions I post a comment asking them to debug their own code first, and if they still don't get why, then to return to SO. Or if it's really weird behavior.
    – jmoon
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 0:33
  • 2
    @TinyGiant I have to disagree: I thinkn that closure is intended to REMOVE unwanted questions. That was the main reason for my question: if the question in point is not wanted, it should be deleted, and the first step to that is to close it.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 1:39
  • 3
    @Arkadiy That is a very large amount of effort required to deal with a question that would ultimately cause no harm whatsoever and no one will ever see again anyway. The best course of action is to downvote and move on. There is logic behind requiring that a question be closed before deleting it. If there is no applicable close reason for a question and it should be deleted (i.e. is actively causing harm that can be proven) then you can flag for moderator attention and detail how such a post is causing harm. That would be inappropriate in this case though.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 1:54
  • 1
    I don't think closure is the way to go. But one thing that I find concerning is questions like this becoming traps for good faith answerers. If a question is perceived as bad (yet not a violation of one of the clear close rules) and people adhere to the practice of downvoting answers of such questions regardless of the answer's quality, that is more or less what ends up happening.
    – bitnine
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 20:51
  • "Do we want questions specific to one person's lack of understanding of a basic language feature?" Who cares what you "want"? The question has already been asked. Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 23:08
  • 5
    @bitnine users should absolutely not be downvoting good answers solely because the question is bad. We have a reversal badge for a reason. Each post should be voted on based on the merits of that specific post, not the user who posted it, nor the quality of the question it was posted to.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 0:50

10 Answers 10

3

Disclaimer: I'm not completely convinced I am correct here

One of the off-topic close reasons: (emphasis mine)

This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error. While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

The whole mantra of Stack Overflow (Stack Exchange?) as I see it is to create a repository of knowledge to allow anyone to easily get an answer to a question that they haven't been able to find after a reasonable time of self-research.

Based on your description of the op's problem, it isn't likely to help future readers.

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    Perhaps we could reword that to better highlight the "resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers" aspect. At present, it reads as if the resolution must have already happened. Maybe, "This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced; a problem which would be resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers; or a simple typographical error."
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 21:01
  • Yes, I agree that reads much better. The only thing I'm uncertain about is whether the spirit of the close reason is its first sentence. But for me, the most important part of this is the "unlikely to help future readers" part
    – Sayse
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 21:09
  • 1
    I think that part is important as well. I have posted a feature request for changing the wording.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 21:17
  • 4
    See: Resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This would be an abuse of that close reason. Please don't do this, and don't tell other people that they should do this. If we closed every question that seemed unlikely to help future readers at the time of posting, I'm sure that 90% of the questions asked would at the time of asking have qualified. We don't truly know how useful such questions will be to future viewers until the future viewers actually read it. We have identified typo questions as inherently void of usefulness.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 0:44
  • 2
    @TinyGiant - From your linked "See:" The target remains the same though: "face-palm" problems that no longer affect the asker and whose solutions will never benefit anyone else.. This is the intended use, and it needs to be clear instead of obfuscated.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:09
  • @TravisJ That is referring to when the asker realizes that they've made a brain-fart. If it isn't a brain fart and is truly a misconception, then it doesn't count. Unless the asker outright says that they made a brain-fart, it cannot be classified as a brain-fart. Ultimately anything basic could be classied as a brain-fart question to someone experienced in the technology, that doesn't make it a brain-fart. That happens so very infrequently that including that in the close description will just encourage people to use it incorrectly.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:28
  • In this case, it was truly a misconception, so this close reason would still not be appropriate.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:29
40

TL;DR:

If you don't like it, downvote it. Don't try to reinterpret close reasons just because you don't like the question.


Do we want them on the site? No. What is the appropriate closing reason? There isn't one. It shouldn't be closed.

From the help center:

Questions should be closed by casting close votes if:

  • they are sufficiently similar to existing questions and would be answered identically to them.
  • they are unclear, too broad, or otherwise problematic to identifying the problem in a way that can be properly addressed by answerers
  • they are sufficiently off-topic, as outlined in the help center.

The question is not (that I know of) a duplicate, it's clear, there's adequate code, it's not too broad, it expresses a specific programming problem.

Contrast this with downvotes:

Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect.

The on-topic rules allow a plethora of low quality questions. But that's okay. That's what downvotes are for.

Tiny Giant wrote a good comment that bears repeating:

Closure is intended to prevent answers. There are many reasons for wanting to prevent answers (i.e. all answers that a given question are going to get will be spam, question isn't on-topic, etc), but the fact that you think a question is just too darn silly isn't a reason to prevent others from answering it.

Stack Overflow is supposed to make the Internet better. In this case, the person's problem was solved. Not many other people will benefit from it. But it will eventually go into the depths of the SO database and no one will look for it, so no one will see it, and no one will care. It doesn't matter if there are hundreds of these bad questions sitting around in the database - we won't see them.

Is the Internet better? One person's problem was solved and the rest of us aren't much worse off.

Back to what you see every day: hundreds of bad questions showing up in your feed. Downvote them. When other users see them, they should downvote too. That will be a sign to everyone else not to waste time on the question, and it will disappear from people's feeds and go off into the depths of the database.

If a new user gets offended at the downvotes, that's okay. They need to learn not to ask those questions on SO. If they don't want to learn, they may get question banned, or the downvotes may drive them off the site. Sad, maybe, but problem solved.

Also, if you can express it politely, leave a comment to help new users understand how to ask better questions.

Interestingly enough, it's slightly hard to close questions. Even if there were a good close reason, closing is a lousy tool. It takes five votes from five willing 3,000 rep users. Again, compare with downvotes: the downvoting privilege comes at only 125 rep.

Now if people would just use that privilege more often...

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    "Copied From Your Answer : If a new user gets offended at the downvotes, that's okay. They need to learn not to ask those questions." Without asking it here or from another friend or teacher how do they know to find their mistake? He does not know that return will stop the program. And how he know that problem because of "return". If he know it he can research about "return"...... Even it is bad to downvote that type of answers Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 4:44
  • "Also, if you can express it politely, leave a comment to help new users understand how to ask better questions." This, IMHO, should be a requirement to down vote. A down vote without any explanation, or request for clarification, is a wasted down vote that casts a negative taste out.
    – BillF
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 5:02
  • 3
    @DonkeyKing I just edited that. They shouldn't be asking that sort of questions on Stack Overflow. I have no problem with them asking elsewhere. Nevertheless, there are resources (manuals, textbooks) to learn fundamentals like return, without having to ask somebody. Learning to solve your own basic problems is a skill that needs to be taught more. Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 5:03
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    @AndrewMyers I am agree that there are many resources to learn basis like how "return" works. But what I saying is that he does not know that problem happens because of "return"........ Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 5:15
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    @BillF That's been a very common request. I see what you mean. The problem is that people overvalue rep. That little number means too much. Votes aren't personal. When people downvote, it's not because they hate you. Imagine you're in class, you say something, and the teacher says, "Umm, no." That's a downvote. Teachers don't hate you. Now sometimes the teacher may give you an explanation or sometimes they'll say, "And your homework is to figure out why." Sometimes it's good to let somebody think for themselves. That said, I think people should definitely leave more comments for new users. Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 5:33
  • 1
    True that--The definition of silly question for one who is already fluent in one technology differs then the one who is not. Obviously, if the question is soo silly or mere a laziness of debugging the code - in that case downvotes and question bans are good actions. By closing question, you in fact snatch chances of other non-silly users who earns reputations by answering, editors by editing and reviewers by reviewing their corresponding work causing no loss on OP's side.. Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 5:52
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    We've gone over this ground a number of times. Urgent times call for urgent measures, especially when management has apparently made the explicit decision to not just not slow the spread of garbage, but to actually encourage it. Until someone defines "typo", I consider it perfectly reasonable to apply to any kind of trivial error or brain fart, which is the case here, and have used it as such and will continue to do so.
    – user663031
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 17:35
  • 1
    @torazaburo "typo" has always been clearly defined as a typographical error. You're saying that until you choose to change, you're going to abuse that close reason for questions that you just don't like, wasting the time and energy of everyone involved. Concentrate your effort where it will do the most good, doing this does no good. These are not desperate times, and no desperate measures are required. What is required is that everyone follow the rules, which you are openly stating that you are not doing.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 22:16
  • @TinyGiant I don't know where to find this "clear definition", or who has made it. For instance, wikipedia's definition of "typographical error" explicitly excludes misspellings such as "heel" for "heal", I suppose because they are not strictly speaking "slips of the finger" but rather "slips of the brain". By that standard, a question wondering why the keyword "yeild" generated a syntax error would not qualify as a typo.
    – user663031
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 2:53
  • @torazaburo That's fine. If you want to make absurd arguments and break the rules will-nilly because that's what serves you best, that's fine. Because after all, it's all about you right?
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 14:11
  • @TinyGiant I'm sorry, but you have not even described where this "rule" I am breaking willy-nilly exists, if in fact it exists at all.
    – user663031
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 15:51
  • @torazaburo No I haven't. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole to find the one clear and concise definition that you would actually accept instead of waving away with more argument-absurdum remarks. You want to see it a certain way, so you're going to willfully ignore everything that speaks to the contrary. You're going to continue to do whatever the hell you like even though the community has agreed that what you're doing is wrong, and there's nothing that anyone can do about that. That doesn't change the fact that what you're doing is wrong, and you know it.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 16:12
  • @TinyGiant My my. Let me say that if if "typo" in the context of that close reason was actually well-defined, not by some random people in a meta thread but by "management", I would seriously consider adapting my behavior to fit that definition. Given that it's not well-defined, I hardly see the grounds for the malfeasance you seem eager to impute to me.
    – user663031
    Commented Aug 22, 2017 at 2:29
  • @TinyGiant Just curious, but today I saw yet another question where the OP had forgotten to return something from a function. In your view of the world, which I assume would reject considering this to be a "typo", what if anything should be done with such questions?
    – user663031
    Commented Aug 23, 2017 at 19:11
  • @torazaburo is it actively harmful?
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 23, 2017 at 19:43
6

Closure indicates that there's a problem with the question that must be fixed before bad answers start rolling in, like asking for a recommendation, or just being incomprehensible.

Downvotes indicate that there's a problem with the question that doesn't merit immediate closure, like a question that can be answered, but the question itself is poorly researched or poorly phrased.

A while ago (and you were probably around for this), we had the "lacks minimal understanding" close reason. Thankfully that was removed, and the reason for that was simple:

Unclear what you know == Unclear what you're asking

I was discussing the results here with Anna, noting in the process how this close reason could be described as "unclear if it's too broad", and she made a rather insightful observation: we're still talking about questions that are Unclear What You're Asking - we just have some fairly unhelpful guidance attached to that close reason.

So let's fix that.


There were a handful of people who interpreted "minimal understanding" as a euphemism for "visible effort" or even "a wall of code". That was never the intent, as it's never been something I've observed as a widespread implicit requirement on Stack Overflow: a clearly-written, reasonably-scoped, answerable programming question should strive to include as much information as necessary and no more; doing otherwise is a much more frequent source of frustration.

If someone asks a question that is otherwise on-topic but not an ideal question, then ideally it should just be downvoted. Closure sends the wrong signal in that they think that it can be fixed, when in reality it's just going to fade into the background of noise.

4
  • Unfortunately, in many case it's very clear what the OP knows: the OP knows nothing. The question is very clear. However, I contend that it violates that implicit "reasonably-scoped" requirement. These questions should be addressed to a teacher, not to SO.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 16:52
  • 3
    I'd use stronger language but... Of course they don't know. That's why they're asking. If you're saying you don't want to answer it, then you don't have to. If you feel like the question is poor, downvote it. It will get cleaned up by the Roomba eventually. Again, if you close it, you'd send the wrong message; you'd be saying that it's fixable when in reality you don't believe that.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 16:54
  • 1
    Why do you say that closing means the question is fixable? Too broad or opinion-oriented is not really fixable. As to "that's why they're asking", my whole point is that not every lack of knowledge and not every question is appropriate for SO.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 17:06
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    I'm not disagreeing with you there, but closure isn't the right way to get them to identify that. Downvoting the question is preferable, because if it's closed, you can get contentions groups thinking that the question is fine and we're being mean to newbies who would want to reopen it. It's perfectly fine to not know something when you're asking a question, though. If we required everyone to know everything before they asked something, we'd never get anywhere.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 17:08
6

Getting very meta here, while the question posed is what questions should be allowed, I think what's really being asked is whether there should be a minimum level of "competence in the field" for participation.

One other answer says, "I don't see how they could not understand the feature they're asking about." but actually I think it's obvious. They're not a good programmer, maybe they just started so they look at something like this for loop and the right neurons don't click because they haven't been trained.

Meanwhile the people who are complaining are good programmers. The answer is so obvious to them that they think, "nobody could make this mistake unless they were inconsiderate of others' time and want SO to do all the thinking for them," and get annoyed. It's an understandable reaction but not necessarily an accurate one.

As a side note, I am currently learning machine learning, which has required me to enter several fields in which I have no experience (statistics, probability, ML). Right now I am making mistakes that I will probably be embarrassed to think about a year from now. When I ask questions on stats.SE or math.SE, I am conscious of the fact that I don't even know if it's a stupid question.

If SO/SE want minimum competence, that's its prerogative. It already happens at MathOverflow, which was explicitly defined to target "research-level math questions" which is another way of saying, "Please don't participate unless you're at least a grad student in math." Everybody else is expected to go to Math.SE.

Anecdotally I feel that answers on other SE sites can be higher-quality and more timely, maybe because the other sites aren't awash in questions. On Math.SE Meta, a popular post was "Curious about exceptionally timely [and high quality] answers."

Presumably nobody would ask that question on SO Meta. On the other hand, a lot of things wouldn't have happened without SO's openness.

My view is basically that it should be acknowledged there is a gradient of expertise and the site experiences different costs and benefits depending on what it caters to. Perhaps SO staff could explore ways to better cater to different parts of that gradient simultaneously.

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    You're positing a false equivalence between normal, expected lack of knowledge or confusion on the part of someone studying a new area, and a wanton ignorance and laziness on the part of people who cannot be bothered to read the first page of the manual.
    – user663031
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 17:44
  • You're right in many cases, BUT consider that the people who do this tend to skew strongly toward "worse programmers." You don't see as many questions by good programmers that we would also label "stupid/lazy questions." Why is that? One factor is just that they're more confident reading the documentation, which in many cases (e.g. Python) is written to an intermediate/advanced level. Another, more interesting factor is that the questions that occur to intermediate or advanced programmers tend to be questions that are not obvious, are less likely to have been asked before, etc.
    – Stephen
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 18:56
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    Therefore I continue to think that much, even though not all, of the problem is reducible to "what is the minimum level of programmer that SO wants on its site."
    – Stephen
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 18:57
  • I'm not saying this is a good idea (would have to think about it more), but personally I think it's clear that if SO simply instituted a programming test with a minimum score as part of the registration process (and somehow prevented cheating), the percentage of questions considered annoying to the community would dramatically drop. That's all I'm really saying.
    – Stephen
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 19:13
5

Do we want questions specific to one person's lack of understanding of a basic language feature?

Well I'd argue that the questions are not specific to one person's lack of understanding, but a common areas of programming that people will stumble over.

Are beginners welcome here?

The true issue here is these types of questions imply the user is a beginner rather than:

.../... professional and enthusiast programmers .../...

However this continues to read:

.../..., people who write code because they love it.

Does this include beginners?

If we continue to read what type of questions are on topic - we soon see that there types of questions you don't like are indeed on topic.

This is the official statement of what is ontopic:

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, people who write code because they love it. We feel the best Stack Overflow questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers…

  • a specific programming problem, or
  • a software algorithm, or
  • software tools commonly used by programmers; and is
  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

So unless the site is prepared to change this statement - then they're on topic. However, having said this - meta is where we make changes to the site's scope. So it's asking questions and getting community support that brings about this change (not to mention the CMs reports).

Are these questions helpful?

How these questions have helped me

To be completely honest - I've relied on SO since my first hello world programme and it was having access to repetitious problems that helped me to learn. I was thick and often would read 20 explanations before I read one that I could understand.

I would read through question after question - the linking of duplicates was helpful. One after the other.

There were basic issues in how I read things. I read them literally - it's the number one cause of misunderstandings in all my communications. I read things a little like a computer does. So it was hard to grasp the basics.

I didn't know what a parameter was. Now whether this is the failing of my education system or my brain or both - Stack Overflow helped me to find an understanding, and it was all these types of questions that helped.

These questions would often be duplicates

The issue with some of these "types" of questions you refer to is that many of them are duplicates. So this may give the impression that there's "so many of them".

A search on "doesn't execute" reveals a plethora of questions - many of which would share the same derived reason for failure.

Finding a good duplicate target and then closing some of them against that would be helpful. It assists in users going between the same types of posts to view different all the different answers and specific problems.

Should we delete the them?

If the question meets the criteria as stated above - then no.

What if they're duplicates?

This is a question best addresses here What parameters do we want when deleting duplicate questions?

Should they be closed as a typo or no repo?

No.

A] tyop is just (that. A mitsake on teh kyeboard. Like an; superfluous: punctuation,. mark or{ a missing one

These questions are reproducible.

They are essentially about misunderstanding one of the fundamentals of programming. Do we want to assist this person in having a better understanding of programming and the millions of users who land on the site browsing these questions? Yes

Do we have to continually answer duplicate questions? No

Another way to do it is to post a comment - easily saved as an auto comment here's mine - feel free to use them:

[Q] Null pointer exception Read carefully the answers to the linked question to learn how to debug your code for null pointer exceptions. It's a basic building block for programming.

[Q] Null reference exception Read carefully the answers to the linked question to learn how to debug your code for null reference exceptions. It's a basic building block for programming.

This is another good reason to find duplicates and dig up canonical ones.

There is certain obstinacy in accepting an answer that the answerer is unsure is right. The question should be I want to get rid of these types of questions - how can I do it?

2
  • "whether this is the failing of my education system or my brain" - since you did figure it out in the end, it must have been your education that was at fault. And that is my whole point. People who ask such questions need teachers or manuals, not answers. These questions turn SO into a teaching site rather than Q&A site.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:19
  • @Arkadiy I agree! and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing - but it just is what it is for the time being at least
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 22, 2017 at 2:39
5

Do we want questions specific to one person's lack of understanding of a basic language feature?

Doesn't all question express a lack of understanding of a language feature or a library function feature or a lack of HW architecture understanding or ..... yeah, a lack of understanding.

I think they do.

Does a lack of basic understanding makes it worse for SO? Do we prefer lack of advanced understanding?

I think not.

If a question is well formulated (complete, describing title... and all that stuff), it is IMO still worth to keep for SO. The simple questions are after all something that addresses the majority.

So my conclusion is:

It doesn't matter whether the question is about something basic or something advanced. What matters is whether the question is put forward in a clear and complete way, so that any visitor can understand what it's about and easily understand whether the question is about the same problem that the visitor has.

Unclear question should be removed.

Clear formulated questions shall be kept - regardless of the topic being basic or advanced.

4

While I personally very much dislike such questions, I recognise that this by no means merits a close vote. But let's break down why I dislike them:

  • They show an utter lack of research.
  • They are generally written in a way so localised that any future reader is unlikely to find them via a search engine. And if this is not the case, then the question is either a dupe or should be made into a canonical reference.
  • I don't see how they could not understand the feature they're asking about. Or, in other words: to me it is unclear what they're asking.

In your specific example:
The OP explicitly marked the return statement with // <-- return, so they are aware it is there.
Now, had they not explicitly asked:

If it return in the if block, does it mean stop the current iteration and ignore the rest code in the for loop after the if block?

then I would have left a comment asking "Are you asking what return does?" and voted to close the question as unclear.

But since they did ask that question, it is clear to me that they're asking what return does, so I would have closed it as a duplicate of this question.

3
  • 1
    OMG, that "canonical" question you linked - what a pearl! And it's highly upvoted, too. I guess SO can play a teacher. Or could in 2011, anyway.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 19:36
  • 5
    @arkadiy less than 15 upvotes with 6 years time to collect them is absolutely not something I'd consider highly upvoted.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 20:00
  • Certainly more than most of my questions:)
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 23:33
-2

Nope, don't want it. Didn't used to have. Would like to see it gone again.

how can you have "too broad" without a corresponding "too narrow"? -Jeff Atwood

Maybe something that removes these questions which are too localized would be appropriate.

Perhaps we could consider a close reason for it, or clarify an existing close reason to more closely cover such a situation.

The main problem with these questions is that there is no point explaining what the return statement does in a Stack Overflow question and answer. Absolutely no point at all, however, asking with an MCVE about why return stops a for loop is completely on topic at present.

It isn't debugging help as it is a concept, it isn't subjective, it isn't a typo, it isn't broad, it isn't unclear, it isn't asking about something not related to programming. There are endless possible examples of code using a return statement. What it is, is an instance of a fundamental programming concept which is unlikely to benefit anyone but the asker.

By not having a specific reason and pigeonholing these into whatever mood strikes, we are doing a disservice to ourselves, because the users having their questions closed will not know to avoid that type of question.

By creating a specific close reason, or modifying an existing close reason, for these questions, users will be given incentive not to post them. Overall this will raise question quality as a result of users avoiding such narrow questions about fundamental concepts of programming.

Jeff's above quote goes on to remark, "Under these rules couldn't you ask a programming question that can't possibly help anyone but you", and I think you are seeing that very point play out right now.

7
  • Regarding "there is no point explaining what a return statement does in a Stack Overflow Q&A" - boy was I surprised. (Hat Tip to @Siguza)
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 23:38
  • 2
    "By not having a specific reason and pigeonholing these into whatever mood strikes, we are doing a disservice to..." ... ourselves and the entire internet because such questions are not off-topic and should not be closed in the first place.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 0:48
  • @TinyGiant - You think closing questions based on whatever mood strikes is a good thing? Wow. Good for you. I don't think the internet appreciates it though. These questions are off topic, and are being closed. There is no change, only clarification as to why they are being closed.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 18:56
  • @Travis I don't know how you got that from my comment. I'm specifically saying that it would be detrimental to do what you're saying (which is close questions based on whatever mood strikes). Those questions are not off-topic and should not be closed. Your "clarification" is actually an unsupported repurposing of an existing close reason in order to make these questions off-topic.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:01
  • I think you took me out of context then. By not having a specific reason for this type of closure, that causes users to pigeonhole these questions into whatever mood strikes using other reasons. I am absolutely not saying to close questions based on whatever mood strikes, and to be honest, your comment is a gross mischaracterization of my post.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:03
  • @Arkadiy - "The returns in the above code will take you out of the method." You think that is making the internet a better place? It doesn't even mention control, or execution, or even caveats such as finally. All of which are easily found by just looking up what the return keyword does in google. Does that mean the English exchange should explain what the word banana means? No. It is a clearly defined word.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:07
  • 1
    @TravisJ you're still saying that these questions should be closed at all, which is patently false. No close reason applies to these questions because they should not be closed. Yes pigeonholing is a problem, the solution is not to fabricate or repurpose an existing close reason to fit these questions which should not be closed. My initial comment here pointed out the fact that pigeonholing these questions is bad not because it gives improper advice on how to make these questions on-topic, but rather because they are not even off-topic in the first place.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 19:23
-4

Thanks to the comment from @TinyGiant and the answer from @AndrewMyers, I think I am now beginning to see the paradoxical situation that we at Stack Overflow find ourselves in.

There exists here a large class of questions that have three properties:

  1. We don't want to see them on this site, they simply clog the site and make it harder to see better questions.

  2. These questions cause no other harm (besides clogging the site)

  3. They can actually be answered and are generally on topic and within rules.

We'd rather not have them, but once they are in, we don't want to close and delete them either. This is a bit of a paradox indeed.

We rely on downvotes to inform the user of our displeasure, and on "scrolling-off" to clean up the site.

The downsides of this approach:

  • the user does not know exactly what caused the downvotes unless some kind soul leaves a comment.
  • the front page is full of bogus questions: as soon as one scrolls off, another shows up.
  • the user often gets an answer while they actually need an education.

The upside is that the user does get an answer, and is happy.

6
  • 2
    That's a thinly veiled sweeping generalization catering entirely to one side of a multi-sided equation, but sure let's go with that. Tell me though, if—as you say—for every one such question that "scrolls off" the feed another one takes it's place, then surely Stack Overflow must already be a vast wasteland with no hope in sight. That said, If you would allow us to step back into reality for a moment, these questions—while they are common enough to take notice—are not even close to representing a majority. Misrepresenting the problem isn't going to solve anything.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 2:32
  • As for "clogging": 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the results of every query performed will probably not be the solution to your problem (possible hyperbole, I have no idea what the real percentage would be). So yeah, this question will clog up the search results for a given query just as much as every other question that isn't the question you're looking for will clog up the same query. That has nothing to do with the quality of the question and everything to do with the fact that it just isn't what you're looking for.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 2:38
  • By "clogging", I meant cloggingh the front page, not the search results. Front page is where the answerers go. I went and tried an SO query: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/edit/711753. The questions with negative score that are not closed/deleted since Jul 17 are ~7.6% of all "still alive" questions created during that period. So I have to agree that "clogging" may be an overstatement, even with regard to front page. Still, it's not insignificant.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 2:49
  • 6
    I'm an answerer and I rarely ever look at the front page. When I type "st" into google chrome's address bar, it auto-suggests stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/javascript, not stackoverflow.com. I learned long ago that the front page is less than useful at the best of times.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 3:42
  • Javascript front page is still a front page, as opposite to Google search that most askers use.
    – user3458
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 23:35
  • then I don't get your point. I was speaking about the tag pages / internal search pages. Google doesn't give as much weight to low scoring / unanswered questions so there's that. I just really don't see any of this as a real problem, sure we don't like these questions when they show up, but there isn't any harm to just downvote and move on.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 0:41
-12

Personally, I think we need to find a way to be a little more understanding of these kinds of questions. I understand that SO is intended to be a collection of sound programming wisdom instead of an open forum. It's a goal that has been achieved VERY well IMHO, so well that SO pages are the primary results that come up when programmers of all levels search for solutions to their problems. Because of this, many programmers see SO as a support community they can turn to for assistance, even when their issues may seem trivial to the "expert users." I think if you're going to take time to engage with a certain question, even if it is of bad quality, take some time to help improve it and make these changes known.

2
  • 3
    We can't be painted with any other brush than that of a Q&A site. We fill the role of many of the things you describe, but we are fundamentally not those things.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 17:24
  • 10
    We have achieved our goal very well, so…you suggest that we stop striving towards that goal and do something else instead? Unclear what you're actually suggesting here.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 17:25

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