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Preamble:

Moderators can make changes to site-specific close reasons; specifically, the ones under the "off topic" category. I've had some ideas for a while about how these should be subtly tweaked, altering the bolded portions to better emphasize the relevant bits.

What I'm proposing here are really minor changes, but before I make them unilaterally, I think it's only appropriate to solicit a bit of community feedback. Making this change will literally take me 10 seconds; it isn't something that we need a community manager's help with, so concerns about bikeshedding or wasting time aren't relevant here. I'm really just looking for words of caution: "No, I think this would be a bad idea, for the following reasons...".

Proposed Change #1:

The "lacks MCVE" close reason currently says:

Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are not useful to other readers. See: How to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.

I think this emphasizes the wrong bits. The phrase "why isn't this code working?" is not important. It seems to be optimized for the benefit of the close-voter picking it out of the list.

Since the critical message is really what's missing from the question and how it can be fixed, it should be reformatted thusly:

Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are not useful to other readers. See: How to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.

In fact, I propose shortening it even further by inlining the MCVE link:

Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are difficult to answer and not useful to other readers.

We don't lose anything this way. In fact, we gain on two fronts:

  1. The text is now shorter, so it's less intimidating and more likely to be read, and

  2. The definition of, and guidance for, creating "the shortest code necessary to reproduce it" is now localized to precisely that phrase, rather than coming at the end as a disconnected afterthought.

    Plus, the color change of the link text provides a further level of emphasis to the most important piece of advice.

Proposed Change #2:

I consider this change to be even more important. It concerns the "typo" close reason, which currently reads:

This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error. While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

I believe the real purpose of this close reason is to more precisely capture the intent of the old "too localized" close reason. Not all questions that arise from typographical errors should be closed. The ones that should be closed are the ones whose answers will never be useful to anyone else in the future. In other words, if it's a typo that programmers make often or that has non-obvious consequences, then it's probably a worthwhile question to have an answer to, and thus it should not be closed.

As such, I advocate changing the emphasis as follows:

This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error. While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

This perfectly captures the two important purposes of this close reason:

  • Issues that we retrospectively determine were "too localized" because they were temporally sensitive and can no longer be reproduced (such as GitHub becoming temporarily inaccessible, or Apple's developer certificates expiring), and
  • Issues that arose from a typographical error or some other obvious blunder, and thus have answers which are unlikely to be helpful to anyone else (such as forgetting a semicolon, misspelling JSON as JASON, or your server being powered off).
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    I would suggest having this as two separate questions with a separate question for each close reason. That way discussion on the changes for each reason would be more clearly separated. It would also allow votes to more clearly indicate approval/disapproval of the changes to each close reason individually. Having them both in one question muddies the water. Some people will agree with one change but disagree with the other change. This may result in the voting being unclear as to what's actually desired for either proposal.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:13
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    A question if I may - Why do you think the desired behavior is not worth emphasizing, and do you believe this is actually going to make a big difference? Because, to be honest, if an asker can't even read a small paragraph and improve their question according to its instructions, then maybe they shouldn't ask here at all
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:13
  • @alon I think it's less important than the other, and less is more when it comes to bold. It wasn't bolded before, so I don't think we're losing anything. I mean, yeah, if people can't read the Help Center and follow basic instructions, then maybe they shouldn't ask here at all, but reality is they do, so...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:18
  • 1
    @Makyen I don't really think having two separate questions is necessary. Just post an answer explaining which part you agree/disagree with, if you have strong feelings one way or another. The MCVE acronym isn't going away; it's still part of the URL and in the title of the linked page. If the magic link is forgotten, it's not the end of the world (just the end of noisy, unhelpful comments).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:20
  • 3
    Re #2: If there are two possible reasons to close under this point (inability to reproduce or typo), we should be consistent with our formatting. We should either bold them both, or bold neither of them. Reason being that people on the typo side will argue "But look! It can be reproduced!", thinking that the bold bits are important and not reading the rest.
    – Joe C
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:29
  • 1
    I'm looking for agreement or disagreement with the relatively minor changes discussed here, @Makyen, not a complete revamp of the reasons. Assume simple markdown, with changes only to bold and/or italics.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:31
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    Strongly related to #2: Resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:31
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    How to respond to this when it all looks good and needs no comment? You'll only hear from the people that disagree. Upvote is all I can do. Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 8:36
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    I think the purpose of highlighting "why isn't this code working?" is to emphasize that only debugging questions really need an MCVE - other types of questions don't always require one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 9:08
  • 1
    Can you spend a few words on who are to benefit from these changes? The close voters that blindly pick the wrong reason or the OP's who's questions are closed or both? I'm basically asking: which problem are you solving.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 11:09
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    Could you also create a new close reason for "give me the code" questions? I usually vote to close those as too broad, but I think it would be better if they had a close reason for themselves. Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 18:51
  • 3
    @Makyen "debugging questions" is definitely not as clear as "questions seeking debugging help". The aim of these messages is clarity, not brevity
    – Wolfie
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 20:44
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    I'm not too sure about inlining the MCVE link; as it is now, I know that following the link will lead to some sort of tutorial showing me how to improve my question. In your version, I'm not sure what I'm getting when I click the link; it could as well be a sarcastic XKCD cartoon. Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 23:00
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    if it can be changed now, it can be changed back or improved later, stop arguing and lets try something new, @CodyGray is willing to do the work and monitor it the impacts of these changes. If they can change it now it can be changed again. These both need attempts at improvement, even if the attempts are not 100% successful, they are something to draw data and experience from. Go for it.
    – user177800
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 15:45
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    There are typo questions that can be on-topic, @IInspectable. With the current emphasis, people are voting to close those as off-topic just because they arose from a typo. I don't think that's productive. The only typo questions that should be closed are ones where the answers will not be helpful to anyone else. That's really the purpose of that closure reason. That it arose from a typo is just incidental.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 16:48

4 Answers 4

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Thoughts on #1

Original (for context without having to scroll!):

Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are not useful to other readers. See: How to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example.

I agree with including the link where it is relevant, as per your 2nd suggestion.

As BoltClock says in the comments, not all questions which suit this flag require a MCVE, so I think making that 90% of what's emphasised might be overkill. On the other hand, something which (I find) is frequently lacking is the desired behaviour of the code, and a specific error.

Perhaps a better option would be to emphasise the three things which the answer should include, rather than the "must include" statement itself and only one of the inclusions. I propose using bold to emphasise two of these things, and the MCVE link to emphasise the third.

Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") must include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself. Questions without a clear problem statement are difficult to answer and not useful to other readers.

Side note: I'm not sure about the use of the word "it" in the MCVE link, not sure it flows. Better might be "shortest code necessary to reproduce your issue". This makes it easier to skim-read as you don't need to work out what "it" refers to!


Thoughts on #2

Spot on, I like this change.

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    Agree, but imho shortest code necessary should also be bold. Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 9:59
  • Is the word reproduce clear enough? I think it's a part of some jargon. Maybe demonstrate is better?
    – anatolyg
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 16:35
  • @anatolyg I think it's pretty clear, not a jargon term since it's widely used outside of a programming context. Reproduce implies same results for the same reason
    – Wolfie
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 18:06
  • I didn't comment on your answer because I agreed with it and didn't have much more to say. I guess I could nitpick about "it": it's necessary there the way the sentence is phrased. Yeah, I guess you could rephrase it, but...probably best to avoid personal pronouns where possible here. Closure already feels like enough of an attack to people. I don't think it makes that much of a difference. But I could think about the wording a bit more if you really think "it" is a reading hindrance.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 19, 2017 at 14:57
  • Ah thanks, no worries just curious as to your thoughts! I only edited in the "it" thing after re-reading the reason several times whilst answering - think it's perhaps one of those "spoon doesn't even look like a real word any more" situations, I realise the emphasis was the main point :) Could use "the issue" not "your issue", but let's move on and ignore both...
    – Wolfie
    Commented Sep 19, 2017 at 14:59
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Thoughts on Proposed Change #2:

Wikipedia: A typographical error (often shortened to typo), also called misprint, is a mistake made in the typing process (such as a spelling mistake) ...

For example in JavaScript

  • tihs is a typo, $(THIS) is NOT a typo but a syntax error.

  • test1(): test2() has a typo - : should be a semicolon,
    test1() /* --- */ test2() has a syntactical error - a semicolon is missing - nothing was typed wrongly.

We can clear this up by amending

a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error

to

a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical or syntactical error

Problem being solved:

This answer to the now closed question

https://stackoverflow.com/a/46266056/295783

shows a pedant, with enough rep to vote to close, answered instead and complained when his answer was voted down that innerHtml vs innerHTML is not a typographical error - Html is spelled correctly, just invalid in this case (pun intended)

This is the umpteenth time I see/get this discussion and it could be mitigated.

UPDATE Why the resistance to this addition of ONE word? I have 12 upvotes and 6 downvotes and a weird set of comments that are more pedantic in keeping the ambiguity than the pedants that complain when a typo vote is cast on a syntax error!

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    But isn't syntactical error already covered in the typographical error definition? I'm not a native English speaker but the dictionary say a typographical error is "an error in printed or typewritten matter resulting from striking the improper key of a keyboard, from mechanical failure, or the like."
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 19:26
  • No. And there's Germans complain when we use TYPO for SYNTAX errors
    – mplungjan
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 20:12
  • I'd say the typo introduced by the programmer may or may not result in a syntax/semantic error. The message is sufficiently clear on that part.
    – moooeeeep
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 7:44
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    Obviously not. I see complaints all the time from people who disagree it is not a typographical error to misspell a function/method/event handler
    – mplungjan
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 7:55
  • Others would argue that those would produce semantic errors instead... I'd keep the focus on the root of the problem here: the typo.
    – moooeeeep
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 8:09
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    @moooeeeep what's the big problem adding one more word for disambiguation ?
    – mplungjan
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 8:25
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    These are typographical errors. If you mistype the name of a variable or API, then that's a typographical error. Typo doesn't judge the intent of the typist; it judges the result.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 11:20
  • @CodyGray case sensitivity is syntax not typographical- he spelled it correctly but it gave a syntax error. Why are we flogging this? It is just your opinion against non-native speakers who do not agree with you - possibly correctly so. Who cares? Just add the word and they and I will be happier.
    – mplungjan
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 11:25
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    We're flogging this because it's wrong, and introducing additional words to the close reasons comes at a cost, especially for non-native speakers who now have more text to read with a more complicated grammatical structure. What you've got up there is a very convoluted syntax---basically, "x or (y or z)"---which isn't captured very clearly or effectively in English grammar. That "it gave a syntax error" is the result of the typo, not the problem itself.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 11:26
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    @CodyGray what example did you look at? The error in the question I quote was the case of HTML in innerHTML - OP wrote innerHtml (which matches innerText in case and is as such an easy mistake to make) The error was syntactical and not typographical. the word was spelled correctly but has the wrong case when processed by JavaScript. Please re-read my amended answer here. I really agree with your emphasis and bold. I just ask for one more word to shut the pedants up
    – mplungjan
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 12:18
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    @mplungjan Tell the pedants that English is not a prescriptivist language and that the definition of "typo" has expanded over time to mean anything where what was typed is minorly different from what it should be.
    – mbrig
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 15:57
  • Why would I explain that when an addition of ONE SINGLE WORD will take care of it. I fail to see the resistance to improving the experience for MANY people, myself included. I sometimes reluctantly use the typo vote BECAUSE it is not a typo but a syntax issue...
    – mplungjan
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 16:24
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Some bold remarks from my side: (I hope this does not qualify as a question posted as an answer...)

  • I think close reason #1 is not a good fit for the off-topic section of the vtc dialog anyways. Questions marked as such may very well be on-topic, but currently lacking critical information. The close reason should therefore not be located in the off-topic section. In fact, at least to me, it seems this close reason is just a specialized case for unclear what you're asking, with a special hint for how to fix it.

  • Sometimes the message of that close reason does not apply. Why isn't this code working? does not fit to questions posed as Why does my build process fail? that don't include a detailed description of the build process, compiler options, file names, commands run.

Conclusion: I find the lacks MCVE hint relevant to more than just questions asking to debug code, e.g. correct usage of programming-related tools. I think such questions are not off-topic to begin with.

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    "I think close reason #1 is not a good fit for the off-topic section of the vtc dialog anyways." Yes, agreed, but we don't have any control over that. It was discussed to death years ago, I made lots of bold arguments about it, as did many others, and they went nowhere. I think it's totally confusing to say that a programming question is "off-topic" because it doesn't have some of the required elements, but that's what we've got, so we need to make the best of it. If you want to propose a rewording of the close reason that would capture your intended uses, go ahead.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 11:22
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    One of the discussions Cody referred to is Shouldn't "off topic" be only about...off topic? Others are linked from there if you're interested.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 12:11
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While I agree that one major problem here are questions without mcve, this is really part of a larger problem, which are in general questions without clear problem description. Even if the question does not require a mcve, it most certainly needs a clear problem description. Thus having a clear problem description in bold makes absolute sense (and I personally would not want it to be changed).

(For all the rest I have nothing to say, it might be worth changing if many people think it makes sense; on the other hand it will not revolutionize the closing of questions either.)

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    But wouldn't questions with an unclear problem description be closed with the unclear what you're asking close reason, which is not in the off-topic sub-category Cody talks about here.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 18:51
  • Well, could be, with that argument one could close any question without mcve as unclear what you're asking. What about a question with a mcve, which reports about some error, but does not describe the error? That should probably also be closed as "Off-topic - Questions seeking debugging help...", right? Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 19:19
  • That makes sense yes.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 17, 2017 at 19:21
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    Well, my thought is essentially that "a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself" (i.e., the bolded portion) explains the essential elements that are required to create "a clear problem description", so it would be redundant to have them both bolded. Are you just saying that you think "a clear problem description" is a better summary text, and is therefore best left as the bold part? I'm not sure I agree; askers obviously don't know what "clear" means. No one intentionally asks unclear questions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 11:24

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