58

This answer has been recently edited (revision 4). This edit adds a lot of new information, which according to this Meta post is not a right thing to do. However, the author of that edit disagrees with that. Here are some messages they posted in chat:

Completely changing the content of an answer is bad. Adding information to an answer is not necessarily bad, and it is up to the OP to roll it back if they feel it conflicts with their intent.

In your example you added two more solutions to an existing answer. I did not add any solutions, I only added more examples using the same solution in a manner that is easier for other users to read, therefor increasing the usefulness and quality of the answer, which is the whole point of editing. So you could say that I was only improving the presentation of the content which was already in the answer.

See this conversation for more context.

Is that edit appropriate, or should it be rolled back?

I think we've reached a consensus that edits shouldn't change the meaning of the post. Therefore, I want to ask more specifically: does that edit change the meaning of the answer?

Note that I don't want to judge the author of that edit. I'm not asking this question to prove they're wrong. I just want to know if editing posts like that is appropriate. In the Suggested Edits review queue I usually reject such edits as "attempt to reply" or "clearly conflicts with author's intent", but maybe I misunderstood something and I need to change my behavior.

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    Upvoting because this is good question, not because of agreement/disagreement. This issue is one that the "don't change answers" seems to conflict with the original intent of being a (somewhat) collaboratively edited wiki-like resource. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:40
  • 4
    You did the same thing as Tiny Giant here: stackoverflow.com/q/40802071 you generalized the answer (and the question) and both you and Tiny Giant made good edits. Now I think the Q&A with more views is probably better as canonical duplicate instead of the newer one. Generalizing the question there wouldn't be a bad thing too the same as you did on the new one. (I also have to say seeing that you rolled back the edit from Tiny Giant, while generalizing the newer Q&A and then close voting the older one it seems a bit like you just want the newer one as canonical.)
    – Rizier123
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 3:22
  • 2
    @Rizier123 I hadn't noticed that. In some ways, these edits are even more radical than what Tiny Giant did, as the question was also changed. Furthermore, this question was posted less than 24 hours ago, which means there should be no difficulties in contacting the authors for to discuss the plans of generalising the question. I would say these edits are more clearly problematic than the one by Tiny Giant.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 8:49
  • 1
    @Rizier123 IMO my edits only generalized the question and the answer, while Tiny Giant's edit added a new content. Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 12:42
  • 4
    I was always under the impression that that rule is actually ''Don't put words in the author's mouth that would affect the perception of their answer.'' So if you write ''foo means bar'' and I add ''bar means cux according to the dictionary'' that's a valid edit. Same as adding examples.
    – M.A.R.
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 12:47
  • 2
    I encourage you to not accept an answer so quickly after it was posted. Would you mind letting the community vote before featuring the answer that the top of the list? Accepting such an answer before allowing the community to vote on it may show bias towards one side of the argument.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:25
  • 2
    @TinyGiant I think the answer I accepted expresses best what I think about it. The community can still vote on it. The checkmark means only that it's the best answer for *me*—it doesn't necessarily mean that the community thinks the same way. Also, featuring it on the top will attract more votes anyway. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:32
  • I think we need @Shog9 to post another apple/orange story, this time covering what a good/bad edit should be. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 12:41
  • Recommended read meta.stackexchange.com/q/261817/213575 and another discussion worth reading too meta.stackoverflow.com/q/316817/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 13:37
  • @g00glen00b oh but Shog did meta.stackoverflow.com/a/313762/792066, and meta.stackoverflow.com/a/288836/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 15:15
  • @Braiam not enough apples though :( Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 15:27

7 Answers 7

10

In this particular case, there's the further issue that the code added in the edit does not describe the same technique as the original answer. Thus, it does factually change the meaning of the answer, and should not have been made without the original answerer's consent.


To be more specific, the original code in bradhouse's answer defines a "callback factory" function that takes the extraStuff parameter(s) supplied by the caller, and returns an inner function that is suitable for use as a callback to the library function $.json(), and, being a closure, has access to both extraStuff as well as to the parameters passed to it by $.json().

The "more basic example" added in the edits by Tiny Giant, on the other hand, has the callback code take in both parameters directly, making it unsuitable for direct use as a callback parameter to the library function. (In the simplified example, all that happens if you try is that one of the logged values is undefined, but in practice any attempt to do anything with the undefined parameter other than to log it would likely crash.) Instead, to invoke the library function using that callback code, the caller needs to define a wrapper function that does take (only) the parameters provided by the library function, and invokes the actual callback with the extra parameters.

In effect, rewriting both examples to use the same syntax and variable / function names, the difference is between the original:

function callbackFactory (extraStuff) {
    return function (callbackParameter) {
        // do something with extraStuff and callbackParameter
    };
}

function userCode (...) {
    libraryFunction(callbackFactory(extraStuff));
}

and the "simplified" method introduced in the edit:

function customCallback (extraStuff, callbackParameter) {
    // do something with extraStuff and callbackParameter
}

function userCode (...) {
    var callbackWrapper = function (callbackParameter) {
        customCallback(extraStuff, callbackParameter);
    };
    libraryFunction(callbackWrapper);
}

Effectively, the latter method shuffles some of the complexity from the callback definition to the caller. The relative merits of the two approaches can be argued, and generally depend on the surrounding context (e.g. whether the same callback is used from more than one place in the user code), but the important thing here is that they are not the same. Thus, an edit that effectively adds one as a "simplified version" of the other is not only excessively presumptuous, but also factually incorrect.

6
  • I argue that it is the same while being the most simplified version of the same concept. The important concept here is not factory functions, it is the fact that function statements create new lexical environments, and lexical environments inherit variable definitions from their outer environment reference. Hence, it is the most simplified version of the same code, with as little code as possible, requiring the least amount of supplementary information to understand for future viewers.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 16:52
  • I do understand your position though, and am grateful that you gave me the courtesy of explaining your position instead of just stating it. Up voting because of this, not because of agreement
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 16:56
  • @TinyGiant: I agree that both versions do use closures to capture variables from an outer scope (although it should be noted that, with appropriate argument ordering, the latter version could be trivially rewritten to use .bind() instead). However, that is where the similarities end, and I would say that, as answers to the original question, they are very different. In any case, if your goal was to turn this answer into a canonical explanation of how JS closures work, note that we already have a pretty good canonical Q&A for that. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 16:59
  • "as answers to the original question, they are very different" I think we're going to have agree to disagree here, because I believe that the arguments in my previous comment negate this point. As far as making it a closure canonical, that would be simplifying it to the point of actually changing the meaning, as it would no longer be about callbacks, which is what I believe is bringing googlers to the question.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 17:04
  • After reading my previous comment I realize that I may not have fully explained my point. While I don't believe that the differences between the two code blocks are relevant to the topic, I would be fine with your "correct" version in the edit.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 17:59
  • Though i disagree with your assessment that my version being a simplified version of your version, which is a simplified version of the original, somehow exludes my version from being a simplification of the original. If anything, it may be an over-simplification of the original. But i dont believe that it is technically incorrect to say it is a simplified version of the original
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 18:11
24

For context, that answer (and question) is from 2009 and viewed over 150K times.

So up until revision 3 this was the start of the answer:

The solution is the binding of variables through closure.

I haven't used the .post function in jQuery, but a quick scan of the documentation suggests the call back should be a function pointer accepting the following:

function callBack(data, textStatus, jqXHR) {};

Therefore I think the solution is as follows:

var doSomething = function(extraStuff) {
    return function(data, textStatus, jqXHR) {
        // do something with extraStuff
    };
};

var clicked = function() {
    var extraStuff = {
        myParam1: 'foo',
        myParam2: 'bar'
    }; // an object / whatever extra params you wish to pass.

   $.post("someurl.php", someData, doSomething(extraStuff), "json");
};

In revision 4 all that was added was a generalized basic example:

As a more basic example, here is an example function that receives and calls a callback function, as well as an example callback function:

function callbackReceiver(callback) {
    callback("Hello World");
}

function callback(value1, value2) {
    console.log(value1, value2);
}

This calls the callback and supplies a single argument. Now you want to supply an additional argument, so you wrap the callback in closure.

callbackReceiver(callback);     // "Hello World", undefined
 callbackReceiver(function(value) {
    callback(value, "Foo Bar"); // "Hello World", "Foo Bar"
});

I honestly don't see why that would be a bad edit, why it would be in conflict with the intent of the author or why it would be an attempt to reply to the author. That edit simply captures what the OP stated in their own words. The edit makes the answer better and wider applicable. It doesn't change the meaning of the post and it adds new relevant information missing from the post.

On top of that the editor left an extended comment, explaining their edit, so both the OP and any visitors would notice what has been done.

In our arsenal of moderation options editing is one of them. It seems like, based on the other answers, we're restricted to some grammar fixes, layout or rewording and I guess salvaging utter crap. That is a bit too restrictive, IMHO. I don't see why you couldn't and why we shouldn't edit a great answer into more greatness. That it is not your own post, who cares? Stuff gets better! Be happy!

All we have to do is judge the edit and the post on its merit. In this case I think it makes the post better and with that this small part of the internet.

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    This is bad because it changes the original meaning of the answerer's answer without their permission - which is specifically disallowed. The editor is not a coauthor. The editor can write their own answer or leave a comment requesting the improvement be added to the existing answer.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 22:31
  • 13
    Yes @AaronHall and I wrote this answer because I disagree with the moderators position and already taken actions on this.
    – rene
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 22:35
  • 5
    The edit lengthens the answer by a third by adding a parenthetical section that significantly changes the composition of the text. While we might argue whether that literally counts as "meaning", that is a substantial change to the answer which might be in conflict with the intent of a reasonable author.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 22:55
  • 3
    @duplode it might be, yes. But it doesn't look like any of us so far found the definitive arguments to say it is in conflict.
    – rene
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 22:59
  • @rene That being so, I believe the underlying question is how conservative we should be when a conflict is possible and plausible, but not certain.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 23:09
  • @duplode Oh, I'm pretty sure users will be very conservative from this point onward ..
    – rene
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 23:19
  • 13
    Yes, the editor is definitely a co-author, that's why their name appears in the edit history and below the post.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 9:15
  • Recommended read meta.stackexchange.com/q/261817/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 13:37
  • @duplode you might want to read Cody Gray's comment here meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/316817/…
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 13:46
  • @duplode I'm afraid that the way that your arguments are interpreted is: anything that isn't proofreading should not be done to answers.
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 14:49
  • 1
    Cody Gray's comment doesn't contradict the views that ground my comment above -- namely, that form and composition are also significant aspects of an answer, and that an edit shouldn't change a post more than what is needed to achieve the goals of the edit. In this specific case, my concerns don't imply Tiny Giant's edit should have been rolled back, as I have stated elsewhere in this discussion (e.g. meta.stackoverflow.com/q/338481/… and meta.stackoverflow.com/q/338481/… ).
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 14:59
  • 1
    @Braiam "I'm afraid that the way that your arguments are interpreted is [...]" -- I can't control how people interpret my arguments. I can only try to influence that by posting further clarifications, as I am doing here. (By the way, I have rewritten my previous reply to you replacing "its goals" with "the goals of the edit", to further cut down possible sources of ambiguity.)
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 15:00
11

I disagree with chrisF and Aaron Hall here and fully stand behind the editors (Tiny Giant) actions and think they were 100% correct and here is why.

Situation

We have a canonical Q&A with over 150,000 views and 18 answers from 2009. The answer we are discussing about is the accept answer with the most upvotes. Currently the answer is specifically written to the question and is also outdated.

Now Tiny Giant edited the answer to generalize it with non-question specific code examples and also brought the answer up-to-date. He also adapted to the authors 'answering style' while editing, so the edit doesn't look out of place.

He still left the question-specific code in the answer and also added a comment under the answer informing the author about the edit and leaving it up to him to leave the edit or roll it back. While I think those two actions are optional they were perfectly correct.


Now when it comes to canonical Q&A's generalizing question and answer is an important part. It makes it a better choice as a duplicate since the answer isn't specifically written to one problem. Additionally it is simpler to understand and for the reader easier to adapt it to their own code.

Another smaller (optional) aspect of generalizing an answer is to bring all options, ways and solutions together into one answer, so that they are not all scattered and hidden away in various parts of many many answers.

Do's and Don'ts

I think generalizing canonical Q&A's is perfectly valid and welcome for the reasons mentioned above. If you generalize a Q&A, especially bigger ones, you have to be careful that you don't invalidate existing answers which are written specifically for the question by rewriting and generalizing the question. Invalidating answers is the last thing we want to do. Optionally, adapting to the authors 'posting style' (word choice, coding style, ...) while editing makes that the edit doesn't look out of place and reads as part of the answer.

If you add additional information to an answer you have to be a bit more careful. If you just add some side notes to the answer it is probably fine, but when you start to add more and more information with multiple examples and solutions you probably should post it as separate answer. But even then I think that there is also a certain line when there are too many answers on the question and all information is just scattered over all answers, so that it is better to put everything in the top answer instead of adding an additional redundant answer to the list.


I don't think Tiny Giant edited the answer so much that it should be a separate answer and even if he did I think in this example it would have been correct to edit that answer, since I think this specific Q&A exceeds the above mentioned line, so it would be more harmful to add another answer instead of editing the top answer.

Please also remember that we want to build a library with many useful Q&A's here on Stack Overflow for many users and not just for one. So Tiny Giant exactly did those two things here. He made the answer more useful and also understandable to more users.

Solution

So what now?
Since this situation all got a bit entangled I think the best solution now would be to comment under the answer and ask the author to flag his own answer to be converted into a community wiki answer.

Probably neither of the two groups, the ones in favor for the edit nor the ones against it, will completely like that solution and that's why it's great. If the author will do that it will leave the answer up to the community.


From my own experience, since I already did such edits in the past, I can just say that many authors are very welcome to such edits and that you see a noticeable increase in views and votes after such edits.

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  • 5
    I'm very much in favor of the solution you propose. Much more balanced that what was done already, by all parties involved.
    – rene
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 7:36
  • 2
    Are you kidding? This question just 4 hours ago still contained "Thanks!", and even now contains a lot of completely irrelevant information. Please tell me, how is the line var myDiv = $("#my-div"); relevant to the question? Calling it "canonical" is ridiculous. Canonical question are supposed to be as simple as possible and as generic as possible. This question isn't like that even in the slightest. Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 9:15
  • 2
    The fact that it has many views and upvotes is completely irrelevant in the matter of being a canonical question. Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 9:23
  • 4
    @Gothdo "Thanks!" and var myDiv = $("#my-div"); of course are irrelevant and as I wrote in the comment under your question here it should be edited the same as you did on the other question from the newer Q&A. Tiny Giant tried to edit the answer into a generic canonical answer, which got then rolled back. So the Q&A could be easily edited into a good generic canonical. Now votes and views don't say if a Q&A is a canonical, but it is a factor to which Q&A you choose as canonical, so that is why I think it should be the canonical one and not the newer one.
    – Rizier123
    Commented Nov 26, 2016 at 9:34
  • 1
    ask the author to flag his own answer to be converted into a community wiki answer: What? How is that better than either rolling back to TinyGiant's first edit, or rewriting some of the new material, or replying to say "no thanks, I liked it without the updated example". AFAIK, we haven't heard from the original author yet. CWiki would give up all the rep that answer has accumulated, right? If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't be interested in doing that, especially not as a first option (even though 300 upvotes is a bit inflated, I would prefer not to give up my lottery winnings :). Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 12:53
  • 2
    @Peter They would only lose future reputation, not past reputation gained from it.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 17:27
  • @PeterCordes The author would just not gain any reputation from future votes. He would keep all current reputation and with CW the answer can be fully maintained by the entire community.
    – Rizier123
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 20:55
  • Ok, yeah then CW does make sense to hand off maintainership of the accepted answer to a canonical FAQ. And is something that people might be willing to do. Thanks for the clarification, @TinyGiant and Rizier. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 1:58
  • Recommended read meta.stackexchange.com/q/261817/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 13:37
10

SO is a repository of useful answers / knowledge. If you posted an answer years ago and haven't updated it yourself to generalize it once it gets a ton of traffic / upvotes, and aren't even around to review changes to it, SO as a community has a good reason to make edits to an answer that shows up in search results.

If the original author was around and did object, that would be their right and I'd have no problem with @bradhouse rolling back an edit. Unless and until that happens, current SO users can and should take responsibility for maintaining popular old answers. Careful well-thought-out edits that try to preserve the author's voice / intent / style are a Good Thing, and directly help make SO more useful to more people, and are worth a small to moderate intrusion into what the original author said. Similar kinds of maintenance of old answers when they're out-of-date is officially encouraged; see bluefeet♦'s 2015 question about how to encourage more.

Adding yet another answer instead of editing is not a viable alternative in cases like this. It doesn't really help solve the problem that an existing massively-upvoted-and-accepted answer is not as helpful as it could/should be for the many people who will read it in future. There are already 18 answers, and a new one will be lost in the weeds for years, and still not shown first unless the still-active OP accepts it. An edit is the only viable way to get better content for searchers in a reasonable time-frame.


Also, note that even though the edit added code, it didn't change any of the existing code. Code edits are somewhat dangerous, but nobody is claiming that the code introduced by this edit is actually wrong. So it has now been reviewed by many eyeballs without finding any problems, and thus should be fine to put in a highly-visible SO answer, because it looks like a much simpler example.


There are differing opinions on whether this edit would have been appropriate in some obscure answer with a couple upvotes on a low-traffic question. I think it's fine on it's own merits, but @Lightness Races in Orbit's answer does make a reasonable argument about "Not substantially the same as before the edit". (This answer is a re-write of my comments there.) That's debatable as a default criterion, and it's also debatable whether it's true or not for Tiny Giant's edit. I have no problem accepting that as a valid position on edits in general, but that's not the point of this answer.

Everyone agrees that there is a limit. The argument is that the specific circumstances of this edit change the limit from its "default" position, and should make it acceptable even to people who don't really like this kind of edit in general.

I'm not saying that old answers are a free-for-all. Totally changing the answer, even if it's popular but wrong / dangerous / a bad idea, or just obsolete due to language changes, is still not ok even on ancient answers, especially where the author isn't around to review. (Editing in a warning note may be appropriate, depending on how subtle + dangerous the problem is).


(If the user is still active, i.e. last seen within a couple days, I think it can be ok to make significant corrections and leave a comment. If they're long gone, you have to take even more care as an editor to only change things when you're really confident you're correct and that you aren't introducing errors, as well as that you aren't distorting the answer so it's different from what the previous upvoters liked about it.)

2
  • 2
    Maybe the "reasons to edit" guidelines should be updated in light of this, if the community can agree on some way to phrase the "maintenance of popular old answers" reason. Or maybe link to this or other stuff on meta so when other editors are wondering the same thing, they can see the range of opinions from different users? Keeping the help pages simple is good, but don't point to any way to resolve tricky / non-obvious cases. I guess we don't want people making intrusive edits until they've been around enough to pick up what's appropriate? Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 5:46
  • 1
    This is one of the problems SE is trying to deal with meta.stackexchange.com/q/261817/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 13:37
8

That edit was probably not appropriate. It adds a whole new example, even if it was "just" a more general answer, which would be more appropriate as a separate answer. While we do want answers to be improved, this usually refers to the spelling, grammar etc. of the text accompanying the code. If there's a technically better solution then that should be added as a new answer.

However, it was even less appropriate that the editor rolledback the rollback. If your edit has been deemed inappropriate the last thing you should do is reapply it. Take a step back and examine the edit and decide whether you went too far (or not far enough). Maybe you just need to redo part of the edit.

I've rolled it back again.

If the answer gets edited again I'll lock it.

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    What reasoning do you have for it not being appropriate? You simply posit that it is inappropriate.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:43
  • @TinyGiant, I was just getting to that, but got distracted by the potential rollback war.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:44
  • The rollbacks happened a while ago, no rollback war to be found. The OP here wants to close the question which owns the answer in question as a duplicate of a newer, more general question. I was trying to show that the original highly upvoted post could be improved to keep it's standing
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:45
  • 4
    It isn't "an more general answer", it is the same answer, with an example that doesn't contain all of the irrelevant noise. This should be up to the author of the post to decided whether or not to roll back
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:52
  • 5
    Again: It should be up to the poster to decide whether or not to rollback the change
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:57
  • 8
    @TinyGiant What if the poster is inactive? Should you be allowed to put words in their mouth in such cases? Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 21:00
  • 1
    I'm not putting words in their mouth, I'm using their own words to say the same thing in a way that is more generally applicable. jQuery has absolutely nothing to do with the actual solution, it is just meaningless baggage. The question is really asking how to supply additional information to a callback
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 21:01
  • 13
    Why does the state of the poster matters? If the edit adds value to a highly viewed post, why shouldn't we do that? The content matters, we don't care about users.
    – rene
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 21:03
  • 3
    Yes indeed @Gothdo, what if the poster is inactive. Should highly voted posts continue to propagate half truths? At this point I would like to point out that content on SO also does not belong to the original poster, as said very clearly in our creative commons license and numerous other posts. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 23:06
  • @Gothdo: what if the poster is inactive: If I'm considering making a borderline too-intrusive edit vs. posting my own answer, I always check whether the author of the answer is still active on SO (by looking at the last-active date on their profile). If they're still active, I'll sometimes go as far as making edits that actually correct errors, since they can rewrite or just roll-back if they want. (The usual reaction is a comment thanking me). If they're not still active, I'll be much more conservative even if I know parts of the answer are wrong. Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 11:47
  • As an answerer, I wholly support ChrisF's position. If I had come across this edit in the wild, I would have reverted it. The can-dos and the don'ts for code are very narrow in scope, and the edit is far outside that scope. I have heavily scrutinized and continuously refined highly upvoted answers with my name on them. I don't want 2k rep users coming along and making me look bad with ill-advised new code or code changes - we don't have the QA in place to handle that, and I don't foresee it happening.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 13:25
7

The rules do not and cannot specifically address every combination of every scenario ever. The short text "changes author's intent" is a summary of a set of behaviours.

Was the answer resulting from the edit a bad answer? No.

Did the answer change the fundamentals of what the original author meant to say? No.

Was the answer after the edit substantially the same as the edit before the answer? Also, no, and therein lies the problem. Maybe you just don't want the rep from an answer of your own, but rep is a side-effect of our model, not the driving principle. This was no grammar correction or added clarifying paragraph: this was a whole new answer. And when you want to write a new answer, you should do just that.

I would have rolled back this edit.

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    @TinyGiant: I have no data and I don't claim to have any. I speak only from the heart as someone who, well, knows what he's talking about after all this time. If you are looking only for academic answers with statistics and affidavits, I encourage you to scroll up or down :) As for duplicating content, if that were a problem with answers, we would have a policy that multiple correct answers would be summarily merged or deleted. We don't, as I'm sure you've noticed at some point. As an aside, I'm baffled that any regular thinks this edit is appropriate. Have you been hiding under a rock?! Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:03
  • 3
    @TinyGiant: I actually did explain my position. Take those four words out of my answer (if you can find them; I actually didn't use them but whatever) and you'll find 133 others to read and enjoy. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:07
  • 3
    +1 specifically for "The rules do not and cannot specifically address every combination of every scenario ever".
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:11
  • 8
    This isn't a court of law, @Tiny, so if you're waiting for someone to spell out in A, B, Cs why you shouldn't do something, you'll be disappointed. Many people clearly feel that this was wrong, and frankly at a quarter past midnight on a Sunday evening I'm not inclined to go much beyond that to explain why I agree with them. The objective reason is what I already said it was: the answer before and the answer after are not the same answer. It's that simple. If you require a more scientific explanation you'll have to look elsewhere. But this is the reason almost everyone disagrees with you. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:16
  • 3
    Okay I think we're done here. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 0:17
  • 5
    This is the best answer that takes the "should-be-rejected" position. It comes closer to convincing me than any of the others have. However, I think doing maintenance on a highly-upvoted answer to a frequently-viewed question is useful, and still trumps this argument. Perhaps there should be a pro-active review process for such special-case edits, like posting on meta with a proposed edit before making it? Then experts in the tag can weigh in and decide that yes, this specific edit will be helpful to future readers, instead of having it only looked at after-the-fact. Thoughts, @TinyGiant? Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 2:07
  • 5
    @TinyGiant: Was the answer after the edit substantially the same as the edit before the answer? No is a coherent reason. I can see why some people might feel that edits need to satisfy that criterion. I don't agree, but I think it's at least a valid position to take (unlike many of the other arguments). And even for people that do take that position as a default, it's a rule that needs exceptions for cases like this, because it's not just someone's obscure answer, it seems to be a highly-visible part of SO's useful repository of knowledge / content. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 2:31
  • 5
    @TinyGiant: but why is a post not being "substantially the same" a bad thing: I don't think this, but for the people that do, I'm guessing they think that "putting words in the author's mouth" is in general a bad thing, even though someone else's icon will show up in the "last edit" position at the bottom of the answer. Maybe \@LRO can expand on this. Maybe they don't see SO as a collaborative site, and that's where I disagree with them. I just don't see a problem when the additions are highly related to what the post was originally saying, useful, and most importantly, correct. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 2:52
  • 3
    @TinyGiant [2/2] That being so, it is generally agreed that there is some limit past which an edit is too sweeping and should be rejected. The rules do not state precisely what that limit is (they just give several common kinds of edits as examples), and, as this discussion shows, there are various views about the matter. To pick an arbitrary example, when ChrisF says it is a problem that you have added an additional example, the implication is that, regardless of anything else, adding an example is enough to cross the line.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 3:05
  • 6
    @duplode: The existence of alternatives: Adding yet another answer is not a viable alternative in this case. (actually it might be, since the OP of the original question is still active; last seen 3 hours ago. So he could accept a new well-crafted canonical answer.) But unless that happens, it doesn't really help solve the problem that an existing massively-upvoted-and-accepted answer is not as helpful as it could/should be for the many people who will read it in future. The question has 18 answers; how many people are going to scroll down far enough to see a new one? Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 4:10
  • 9
    @duplode: The way I see it: SO is a repository of useful answers / knowledge. If you posted an answer years ago and haven't updated it yourself to generalize it once it gets a ton of traffic / upvotes, and aren't even around to review changes to it, SO as a community has a good reason to make edits to an answer that shows up in search results. If the original author was around and did object, that would be their right and I'd have no problem with \@bradhouse rolling back an edit. Without that, current SO users can and should take responsibility for maintaining popular old answers. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 4:16
  • 6
    Just to clarify and avoid misunderstanding: I'm not saying that old answers are a free-for-all. Totally changing the answer, even if it's popular but wrong / dangerous / a bad idea, or just obsolete due to language changes, is still not ok even on ancient answers, especially where the author isn't around to review. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 4:21
  • 6
    @duplode: The criteria for deciding where the limit is seems to be the crux of the matter. I think everyone agrees there is a limit; we aren't arguing about that. I'm making an argument that the specific circumstances of this edit change the limit from its "default" position. Honestly, I think this was just plain a good edit, even without all of those circumstances, but I not everyone agrees with that. But I hope I can get more people to agree that this edit was ok in this case, because of these reasons, even if they don't really like this kind of edit in general. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 4:27
  • 3
    @TinyGiant: I addressed this complaint 18 hours ago, now you're back to the repeated personal insults? Stop. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 18:30
  • 3
    @TinyGiant: It's not "an observation". Again. STOP. I "understand" perfectly; you will go further if you do not accuse those who disagree with you of only disagreeing because they "don't understand". In fact I agreed that I was not providing an objective argument, and I told you that I had no intention of doing so. Further comments from you will generate moderator flags, because I'm sick of it. Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 18:38
7

I was the editor in question. Note that I have no stake in the outcome of this other than the fact that I truly believe that this edit is completely within the guidelines provided in the help center and throughout meta.

If there is an objective argument as to why this edit is inappropriate, I would happily read it.


Does that edit change the meaning of the answer?

I posit that it does not change the meaning of the answer because the essential concept being conveyed is preserved in the new parenthetical section.

The core problem is highlighted in the title "pass more parameters into callback". The jQuery AJAX stuff was important to the OP, but it isn't what's bringing googlers to the question.

I felt that the specificity of the example was detracting from the answer's true potential usefulness, and was inclined to edit it to make it better.

What I was attempting to do with this edit was extract just that essential concept and display it in the shortest self-contained correct example I could muster, while still being easily understandable.

I also included a single line update about the new arrow function syntax (introduced in the 6th edition of the ECMA-262 standard released June 2015), and its added usefulness in this scenario.

I wanted to respect the author as much as possible, so I left the original code in place, generalized a basic explanation of the code, left the detailed explanation in the authors own words, and generally tried to be the least invasive as possible.


You should have posted your own answer

suggested by answerer's here

This was not a new solution, so posting my own answer would have just been duplication of effort and information. I'm reasonably certain that isn't Stack Overflow's goal.

As far as I can tell from the references I quoted here, there is nothing wrong with my edit, though I would happily read and consider any objective argument as to why my edit was inappropriate.


Quoting the help center editing privilege page: (emphasis original)

When should I edit posts?

Any time you feel you can make the post better, and are inclined to do so. Editing is encouraged!

Some common reasons to edit are:

  • to fix grammatical or spelling mistakes
  • to clarify the meaning of a post without changing it
  • to correct minor mistakes or add addendums / updates as the post ages
  • to add related resources or hyperlinks

Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe.

(https://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/edit)

Now to highlight the important parts of this:

When should I edit posts?

Any time you feel you can make the post better, and are inclined to do so. Editing is encouraged!

As I said above, I felt I could make the post better, and was inclined to do so. So far so good, but I'm not in the clear yet.

Some common reasons to edit are:

  • to fix grammatical or spelling mistakes
  • to clarify the meaning of a post without changing it
  • to correct minor mistakes or add addendums / updates as the post ages
  • to add related resources or hyperlinks

To clarify the meaning of a post without changing it

I attempted to clarify the "meaning", which I consider the essential concept that solved the core problem, by highlighting it in its most distilled form.

Add addendums / updates as the post ages

I added the one liner about the new arrow function statement syntax with a reference to relevant documentation.


Next, from The Great Edit Wars (Stack Overflow blog 2009): (emphasis original)

So while the general advice on handling edit wars is roughly the same, here's some detailed guidance specific to our hybrid system.

  1. As it says in the faq: if you aren't comfortable with the community editing your posts, Stack Overflow may not be the right website for you. What we do here is edit posts, together, to make them better and clearer. If you think that's crazy talk and we're all nuts, that's fine. Like I said: there are millions of existing traditional discussion forums on the internet. We're trying to do something different and perhaps more experimental here, so if you're not tolerant of that, posting here is probably .. not advisable. I don't like to see people go, but sometimes it's just not a good fit.

  2. As it says on the sidebar of every edit page, here's what makes up good editing practice as we see it on Stack Overflow:

    • Fix grammatical or spelling errors.
    • Clarify meaning without changing it.
    • Correct minor mistakes.
    • Add related resources or links.
    • Always respect the original author.
  3. Editing is welcomed and encouraged. However, if the author of the post is resistant to your editing changes, even a perfectly legitimate edit based on the above rules, be the bigger man (or woman) and let them have it their way. Our goal here is not to cause friction between users, or to make everything perfect overnight. All we aim to do is gradually clean up and improve questions and answers together. When in doubt, just move on! There will be plenty of other posts and other edits you can make. In time, that reluctant author will learn how Stack Overflow works.

Again highlighting the important bits: (emphasis original)

As it says in the faq: if you aren't comfortable with the community editing your posts, Stack Overflow may not be the right website for you. What we do here is edit posts, together, to make them better and clearer.

This emphasizes that community collaboration and editing are core concepts of Stack Overflow.

A post is not owned exclusively by the author. The author gets credit for coming up with the original revision and continues to profit over time for that, unless they decide to mark the post as community wiki.

When you mark something community wiki you are telling the world that you don't want any more credit for the content than the rest of the posts contributors.

When you don't mark a post as community wiki, you are not disallowing non-trivial edits.

Editing is welcomed and encouraged. However, if the author of the post is resistant to your editing changes, even a perfectly legitimate edit based on the above rules, be the bigger man (or woman) and let them have it their way.

I left a comment after the edit informing the author and future readers of my edit and the reasoning behind it, while also encouraging the author to roll my edit back if they felt that it deviated to far from the original intent of their question.

When in doubt, just move on!

I'm not in doubt, I am at this point reasonably sure that my edit was correct, and that the original roll back was in error.

I had attempted to discuss my position with the user who rolled back my edit, but did not receive a reply, so I re-applied my edit.


Finally, from In Defense of Editing (Stack Overflow blog 2009): (emphasis original)

Editing is the backbone of Stack Overflow, and probably (along with the reputation system) one of the single most important distinctions between Stack Overflow and "just another forum".

What's so special about editing? You might as well ask what's so special about editing on Wikipedia? Uh... everything?

...

In The Great Edit Wars, we discussed some general guidelines for good editing. Please do read those. But I realized that I could have been clearer, and more specific. So here's some additional guidance.

  • If you are going to edit a post, make sure you're substantively improving it. Avoid making isolated, trivial edits, as they are the source of much friction. For example, don't bother changing "its" to "it's" unless you have several other edits to make in the same post. There has to be a legitimate case that your edit made multiple changes transforming the post from good to great -- or at least substantively improving it.

This details the fact that editing is one of the most important parts of Stack Overflow, and edits should strive to be substantial, and improve the post as much as possible, not be limited to simple grammar, spelling, and layout fixes.

Those things should be included in your edit at a minimum, but your edit should not consist solely of those things unless those things are the only thing that can be changed in a post.

15
  • 6
    Your solution is different than the solution of the OP. The OP solution is to create a new function which returns a function, and then call it and pass the result as an argument to $.post. Your solution, however, is to simply pass a wrapper function to the callbackReceiver function. Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:48
  • 5
    It's the same concept. We're arguing over the size of peanuts here.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2016 at 20:50
  • 2
    Ridiculous to downvote this answer. I think tiny giant presents a very reasonable defense here..
    – The F
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 8:17
  • 4
    @TheF No, it's not ridiculous. Downvotes on meta merely express disagreement. Personally, I agree that the edit should've been fine. Taking into account Tiny Giant already included a comment saying that it would be okay if the OP rolled it back, the decision to roll back should've been left to the OP. I voted accordingly on this answer. Others who disagree should downvote this answer, that's the whole point of voting here.
    – user743382
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 10:43
  • Not much to disagree with as it's quite an objective and reasonable! description of what happened and especially why the edit was rolled back.. whatever, too much 'brain' matter and too many characters that could've been used elsewhere on stack exchange 😂🙏
    – The F
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 10:56
  • While I still disagree with some of the arguments you raised elsewhere in this Q&A, this updated answer is a pretty reasonable defence of your edit. Accordingly, I have retracted my downvote.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 11:25
  • 1
    I wonder about the possibility of moving the contents of your edit to the end of the answer. That way, your addenda would still be there, while disruption to the composition of the original answer would be minimised.
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 11:33
  • 2
    @duplode What I say always makes perfect sense, to me. Sometimes it takes me a bit to explain it in a way that makes sense to others. I would be open to moving the edit to the end.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 11:58
  • 3
    As an answerer: You took community wiki style liberties with an answer with someone else's name on it. If I had come across it in the wild, I would have reverted it. As an answerer, my understanding of site policy only allows for limited editing of answers, especially ones with a large number of votes. I have a different position on questions that are about to be deleted for problems, but this violates and sets a bad precedence. (My apologies for my heavy-handed words earlier.)
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 13:05
  • @AaronHall: Community-wiki style liberties would be things like removing whole chunks of the answer and saying it a different way, or even saying something else if the original was wrong or outdated (an extreme case I've done: rev 3 of stackoverflow.com/posts/776523/revisions, which I asked about on meta to see if I was doing the right thing).) Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 13:11
  • 7
    @AaronHall: I completely disagree with your assessment of how intrusive and meaning-changing the edit was. As discussed in comments on your now-deleted answer to this meta question, it doesn't set a precedent because every edit still has to stand on its own merit. Edits like this are not a new thing for SO. Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 13:16
  • 1
    We have a different standard for code, which he created out of thin air. The things you can do for code are very limited. The restrictions don't bother saying "Don't make new code" because that would be like saying, "5 is right out." To interpret that as "I can count to 5 because the instructions don't say I can't" is a willful misinterpretation. Now that's just my perspective, and I want to take a step back from this debate, because I've made some mistakes in tone that are undermining my position - and that's unfair to the community. I'm a new mod, please forgive.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 13:16
  • 9
    @AaronHall: TinyGiant didn't even modify any of the OP's original code. That's a huge and important difference. The fact that the new code is just a more generic version of the original code makes it even less of an issue. The original author of the answer hasn't been seen on SO for over a year, so unfortunately we may not have him weigh in on it, and does make it appropriate for moderators to take an interest, though. Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 13:18
  • 1
    A relevant chat discussion currently taking place between myself and Aaron as well as other users on this topic starts here. When this discussion has come to a conclusion, I will replace this comment with a link to a bookmark created at that time containing the entire discussion.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 27, 2016 at 20:32
  • 1
    Recommended read meta.stackexchange.com/q/261817/213575
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 13:37

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