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In the review queues (and the triage queue in particular), there are three options for a post. One of those options is labeled "Requires Editing". In the description of what those options mean, it says:

Requires Editing for questions where edits by the author or others would result in a question that is clear and answerable

However, by consensus here on Meta, it has been decided that "Requires Editing" actually should be applied only to posts that the community can edit into shape, not posts that require editing by the original author. Such posts, it is argued, should be marked instead as "Unsalvageable" since the community can do nothing on its own to salvage them.

I don't want to debate the policy or the interpretation. I want to draw attention to the fact that there is currently a massive disconnect between the official guidance in the UI and the policy as it is enforced by the moderation team.

I know this has been asked before, and subsequently closed as a duplicate of a major triage review reworking proposal, but this text has not yet been fixed and I recently became aware that moderators are handing out review bans for users who choose "Requires Editing" for posts that…require editing.

This is completely unacceptable as far as I'm concerned. To be clear, I'm not proposing that we be less harsh on people who make bad decisions in the review queues, like choosing "Looks OK" on these problematic questions. I am, however, saying that we need to be fair. Either change the guidelines in the official UI, or stop manually issuing bans to people who choose what appears to be a completely valid choice.

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    I'm very interested in this, too. As far as I knew and every time it came up, I've been told "requires editing" posts go into the H&I queue, where no post author is located. So logically it follows that this option should only be picked for posts that someone without the knowledge of the OP can fix reasonably. Yet, the text says differently. I never even noticed that the text said otherwise. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 11:07
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    I completely agree with this feature request. A guideline should be clear and unambiguous - and not misleading and giving false information. And if it is giving false information, banning people for acting in accordance to the false information, is unfair. Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 11:17
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    Well, I would close this as a duplicate and bounty the other one if it were possible. Alas, it is not; no bounties on Meta. So I'm of the opinion that this should just stay open until someone finally pays attention to it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 12:16
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    @Magisch In this case I think we should keep it as something needs to change. It is not acceptable for the mods to suspend someone for something that the help right on screen tells them to do. This disconnect needs to be fixed now, not 6 to 8 weeks from now. While I fully agree that requires editing should only be fore cases where the community can edit it I think the mods need to stop until this is resolved. Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 12:25
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    I also suggest the description of "Unsalvageable" is changed to: Unsalvageable for questions where only edits by the author can result in a question that is clear and answerable - yes, "unsalvageable" means nuke from orbit, but no need to make that sound like a bad thing. :)
    – Siguza
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 14:43
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    I've been hesitant to apply review bans in triage for this reason, except in obvious cases (like "requires editing" reviews on spam, nonsense, or completely unsalvageable garbage). The wording in the review guidance clearly contradicts how the system handles this (invalidating "very low quality" flags and sending the post in for community edits), and moderators only started acting when people started complaining about flags being incorrectly invalidated. I think it's clear that the review wording should change, possibly along with the name of that option itself.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 15:09
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    Yes, this. There are probably far-term things to be addressed with that button in Triage, but in the meantime it would solve a great many near-term problems if the text were just changed to something like "where edits by the community" instead of "where edits by the author or others".
    – Ajean
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 15:27
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    A related problem is that if an “Unsalvageable” question makes it into “Help and Improvement”, the only option is to mark it “Very Low Quality”, not “this should never have made it into this queue in the first place, please tell whoever flagged it that they’re doing it wrong”.
    – Teepeemm
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 15:40
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    To me, this seems more a "bug" than "feature-request".
    – EMBarbosa
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 17:49
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    @Shawn No, you've missed the point. "Author edit required" and "Not to community standards" would mean the same thing - that the post should go to "Unsalvageable". The "Requires Editing" button (contradictory to its tip, which is the problem) is to be used for edits that don't require the author. As the OP indicates, this has been established for quite awhile.
    – Ajean
    Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 23:31
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    This is not a duplicate. The previous question asks what is the correct policy. This asserts that the correct policy should be written in the instructions. People who closed this were simply lazy to read the other question, answer and the comments bellow the answer. Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 8:15
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    "There is currently a massive disconnect between the official guidance in the UI and the policy as it is enforced by the moderation team." Or more generally, between triage guidance and common sense, e.g. regarding the improvement queue or the various issues with "unsalvageable" (wording of the options, too complicated workflow, etc). This disconnect was there since the introduction of triage, was pointed out multiple times on meta, and was consistently ignored by SE. Not that I disagree with your request, but what exactly has changed that makes you think SE will do anything this time?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 12:36
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    @deltree - The problem is that the community can't generate a MCVE if the OP didn't provide one, add missing details, or clarify something if no one understands it. The community can edit every post but it can't fix every post.
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 14:47
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    @Flexo That may be what you read there, but that isn't what that English sentence means. When you add a clause (like "author or") in English, it weakly implies that the sentence without the clause would not be sufficient, unless that interpretation would be obviously unreasonable from context. So it weakly implies "where edits by others (than the author) would result in a question that is clear and answerable" cannot be sufficient here. So "author or" means "author edit needed" implies this choice. English is subtle; this sentence is (weakly) wrong. Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 19:29
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    As someone who only recently got access to the review queue, I agree the wording on the review triage is misleading. I assumed from the help text that a valid purpose of the Requires Editing button was to indicate that the question requires more information from the author, such as a MCVE, but it is not too broad, or mostly opinion based, or other reasons why a question might be closed. The wording on the triage page itself does not indicate anywhere that clicking requires editing sends the question to a queue for the community to edit. Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 20:11

2 Answers 2

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As of today, the guidance now reads:

Requires Editing for questions that you can make clear and answerable by editing

...and also includes a second link to this meta answer as the last line in the expanded instructions (same answer linked to in "help separating questions" in the short explanation at the top).

This is based on a suggestion by K.Davis a few months back, and I think it nicely side-steps the problems inherent in asking reviewers to guess at what others are able to fix. If a majority of reviewers think they can fix it themselves (with or without help from the author), chances are it's probably fixable...

Of course, we'll see how much of an effect it actually has in practice.

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    This is... actually pretty great.
    – user4639281
    Commented Apr 25, 2018 at 23:26
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    Regardless of whether it works or not, I appreciate that you are trying. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 2:57
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    Hooray! Next step is to deal with the buttons' labels, I guess (some nice ideas here: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/346194/3995261). The H&I queue is still crowded with incorrectly sorted posts, but the already-made change will hopefully have deferred effect since it only affects users new to reviewing (who is careful enough to read the ddescription). By the way, is the description of options unfolded by default? I started reviewing too long ago to recall.
    – YakovL
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 16:47
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    Unfolded by default for first-time reviewers, @yakov
    – Shog9
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 17:04
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Update:

As of November 17th, the FAQ you referenced is linked to from the first line of the Triage guidance - it is visible to everyone reviewing, and does not require expanding the guidance.

"help separating questions" is linked

Whether this'll make any difference... I don't know.


Past thoughts

I have a sneaking suspicion this doesn't make one bit of difference.

First off, folks have to read this... Which isn't a profitable bet at the best of times.

Then... There's the issue of trying to decide which person is qualified to fix a particular set of issues. It's one thing to decide that a question is essentially unanswerable when setting out to answer, quite another to examine an arbitrary question which you may not have the skill to answer and be asked to make that call. That's why this is triage, not the high court precogs in which the fate of all questions shall be predicted with great accuracy. The point of the queue is to sort questions up-front; realistically, we only need it to be significantly more accurate than machine analysis of the text and author history.

Finally... It actually is possible for 3rd-party editors to make these "author-only" edits in a significant number of cases. How? By asking the author for clarification and then editing their response into the question. In cases where the author is responsive, that's rather a lot less work than trying to get the question closed.

Extremely optimistic meta guidance aside, I have grave doubts that the accuracy here can be increased very much via wording tweaks.

That said... I'm totally open to adjusting the wording if it'll settle some arguments. For the sake of symmetry, I'd recommend a variation on the wording for the Very Low Quality flag:

This question has fixable formatting or content problems. It is likely to be salvageable through editing, and does not need to be removed.

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    This seems a sensible blob of text that it's accurate with what reviewers in the H&I queue are meant to do... now if we can somehow convince them to do that instead of what they do...
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 21:46
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    Honestly... Don't worry about H&I, @Braiam. We're essentially assigning people bits of garbage and asking them to look for gold, after we've already sifted out the obvious gold... And meanwhile a bunch of people with metal detectors are picking through the pile systematically. A really good editor can have a big effect, but a really good editor can have a big effect anywhere; this is a last-chance for stuff nobody wants, not a guaranteed redemption.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 21:51
  • That's all well and good, but can we hear more about this "high court precogs in which the fate of all questions shall be predicted with great accuracy"? That sounds like a nice feature. That aside, perhaps there should be some sort of explicit reward for the OP editing a question that has been in one of these queues; even it is just +1 for the first edit or something.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 21:57
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    Perhaps having your question answered and not ignored then deleted would be some incentive, @TravisJ? Of course, we'd have to actually let them know that their question was sitting in purgatory waiting for redemption, which might annoy some folks.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 21:58
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    Good point. I suppose there is enough incentive in just getting a solution. Sometimes it is hard to determine what certain users were expecting when they posted their question.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 18, 2016 at 22:00
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    @Shog9 Im curious, is the team satisfied with the status of the H&I queue? I'd love a button reading "No, close this instead" instead of skipping+flagging for LQP. Mainly because doing that queue feels like trying to find the one gold nugget in a mountain of hardened sewage.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 8:49
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    I'm certainly not saying that fixing the wording will be the panacea that eliminates all confusion. I'm not nearly that naive. Nor am I naive enough to think that very many people read that text. But I have seen compelling evidence that there are a few well-meaning reviewers who do read that text and have been led astray by it. These people are certainly in the minority, but they are the people we want to keep reviewing, so alienating them comes at a much bigger cost. As for your point about indirect author edits, that seems like irrelevant semantics. You have to figure out what...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 8:56
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    ...this option is meant to imply, and then make the wording match. It is quite irrelevant who does the dirty work of performing the edit. As I mentioned in the question, the Meta community and the moderators seem to have decided that it is not an appropriate choice for questions that would require clarification from and/or additional information that exists only in the author's head. This is the disconnect that needs to be solved. Either the moderators are wrong in the way they've applied the rules, and you need to correct them, or the wording is wrong and needs to be changed.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 19, 2016 at 8:58
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    I don't review often. So when I review, I do read all instruction I can find in the screen while I'm doing it. Someone then punish me for that... WHAT??
    – EMBarbosa
    Commented Aug 25, 2016 at 15:29
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    I agree that modifying the help text probably won't make much difference, but tweaking the label itself probably will. Instead of the ambiguous "requires editing" it could perhaps be "requires community editing" or something else that makes it clearer what the purpose is. Commented Aug 27, 2016 at 19:43
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    @Carpetsmoker - "Requires Community (or, Moderator) Editing" is a good suggestion IMHO. However, I still take issue with the (more) showing "by the author", and then people being suspended and/or banned.
    – gravity
    Commented Nov 28, 2016 at 18:37
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    This question has fixable formatting or content problems. It is likely to be salvageable through editing, and does not need to be removed. – Please do not further spread this confusing wording. Almost every post is salvageable through edits by the original author. But there is no point sending a post to H&I when the reviewer would have to wait for feedback from the asker. Use something like somebody familiar with the topic can salvage the question. But please finally fix the contradicting guidance.
    – Wrzlprmft
    Commented Feb 20, 2017 at 12:09
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    @Shog9 "This question is on-topic and answerable in its current state, but has some content or formatting problems that can be fixed by edits from the community."
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 28, 2017 at 23:41
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    We're still regularly running into situations where users are selecting "Requires Editing" for posts that actually require more information from the author. Just yesterday someone failed an audit and was banned for following the guidance provided to them. People are still complaining of being misled by the system. This is a horrible user experience. Can we please have the text corrected so we can stop this nonsense?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jun 17, 2017 at 20:06
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    The link didn't help me. The text on this page told me what I need to know, why should I leave and read more text? Now I know better, but if I read both, I would assume the the more prominent in-page text supersedes anything said anywhere else in the system. You have to fix this problem at the source or not at all. (Also, Sorry edit queue for unsalvageable questions)
    – Tezra
    Commented Jun 22, 2017 at 17:10

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