391

There is strong evidence that Crossover is an employer most of us would not touch with a pole. It's the pointy-haired boss, on steroids and with nuclear weapons. Read the stuff (e.g. on Quora), subtract all the hearsay, BS, and disgruntled interviewees and the picture is still horrific.

  • Employees are under webcam surveillance to document that they are working
  • Employees appear to be re-hired or rented out to other companies
  • Payment is strictly by hours worked; zero sick pay, zero vacation, effectively making this a contract gig (which I thought Careers didn't do?)
  • Most reports out there depict a work situation with zero interaction with colleagues; by all accounts, this is little more than a coding sweatshop - arguably offering little to none in terms of career or personal development.
  • Given that the company is based in the US and the employees will be in poor countries, good luck settling any disputes without the help of a $200/hour lawyer, lol

There is a Q&A about this specific employer and the team's official response so far is twofold:

  • Korneel says the actual problem here is the targeting that is off. I take that to mean that the ads need to be shown in developing countries only, where there are people desperate enough to actually consider taking those jobs. Presumably, the filters work better now, so us good citizens of the First World no longer see them. What a relief!

  • Juice argues that SO Careers can't do quality control - that there'll be negative reviews on any employer - and SO as a company can't refuse to do business with clients for reasons other than "publically protected" ones (like discrimination).

The latter can't be true. It's very hard to believe that SO can't stop taking ads from a business that has already (provably, through several Meta posts: One, two, three) affected the community's trust in SO.

The argument that it's not SO's job to weed out bad employers is correct - to a point. Yes, SO can't follow up on disgruntled employees' (or interviewees') claims on how this and that employer is horrible. But what we have here is not just hearsay; the problem we're having is with the company's confirmed employment policies.

And boy, are those way out of line with what we've been told about Stack Overflow Careers' mission - making the world a better place for developers, and freeing them from all those bad jobs. I listened to several dozen podcasts a while ago while doing work around the house, and they are full of this stuff. Don't tell me I need to find the quotes and make transcripts.

Now there is an argument to be made that companies like Crossover, as bad and exploitative as they may be, provide opportunities to people who would otherwise have none - and $30k for a high-skill job (their going rate) can be a lot of money in a lot of places.

And that's a valid argument - but it's a slippery slope towards justifying pretty much any kind of working condition that isn't right-out slavery (if sweatshops in Bangladesh didn't employ children, they would have to do even worse things, right?) and I'm not sure how one can make this argument yet defend a $15 minimum wage at home with a straight face.

But back to the question. Even if we agree these kinds of jobs may have a place in the world (which I'm not at all sure about.) Should SO Careers be one of the places that runs these ads?

Is it really compatible with all that ethos about making the world a better place?

I don't think so.

SO Careers should not accept any future business from Crossover

25
  • 9
    @rossipedia added links. They're basically the same I already linked to collecting folks' responses but they're in a list now, clearer. I'll gladly elaborate on how those questions show that the postings affect community trust in SO if/when needed, but for the purposes of our discussion here I think it's pretty obvious from what is being said, and the voting
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 16:32
  • 4
    @rossipedia I dug up two meta posts pertaining crossover and the user's disdain for them, and quoted them in my answer.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 17:08
  • 21
    What I'm hearing as I read through this is that you would like to see a way for the community to upvote or downvote employers (with the requisite voting fraud methods in place).
    – user4039065
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 17:09
  • 15
    @Jeeped I'm not sure that would work - most of us don't really have the data to vote well , so we'd probably end up voting badly, judging the excitingness of job ads or whatever. Might work with ads ("I like this ad"/"I dislike this ad") but not with employers. I'd be satisfied if unambiguously unethical employers were removed on a case-by-case basis (although I realize that is not entirely without its problems, either.)
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 17:11
  • 12
    How much more evidence do you need @rossipedia, than your community repeatedly telling you something is going wrong and needs to be addressed?
    – Bart
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 17:58
  • 40
    I'll be responding to this tomorrow. Please, let's keep speculation as to intent down - one of the things Jobs aims to do is help employers get better at being employers across the board and we do turn away a ton of business. I'm looking into this now.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 18:11
  • 8
    @Pekka웃 I got really excited about the integration because I knew we'd raise the bar in standards. We're basically screaming "HEY EVERYONE, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" and we provide a lot of insights to clients, who came to us because they've been doing it ... less than optimally. It's never been solely about the $$$, I think we get more excited about 'people that get it' than anything else. But, not everyone is going to have a track record of 'getting it'. Gimme a hot second or few to wrap around this.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 18:41
  • 16
    @Tim these guys really look like "not getting it" is coded in their DNA. They're the asker you want question banned.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 20:02
  • 31
    That statement by @Juice is 100% backwards (as I stated on the post). As a US company, SO may not discriminate against a handful of protected classes. Any other reason (which includes "our users don't like you") is perfectly valid to say "we're not doing business with you".
    – nobody
    Commented Aug 9, 2016 at 22:41
  • 13
    The funniest thing about Andy (the CEO of Crossover) is immediately when he answered on Quora, quora.com/…, he was upvoted by guess who? His "employees"...the stuff is mind numbing...like a huge circus...lead by this loser.
    – JonH
    Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 15:44
  • 33
    Ooookay. I've talked to a bunch of people internally that have been working with them, gotten a lot of information that I didn't have, and clarified a bunch of things that I gathered after reading through this. I'm getting an answer written now, my current status is making it not be a novel, so I'll get it posted at some point early tomorrow morning NY time. I don't think there's much to worry about, but we pretty clearly identified some places where we need to be more clear, and some places where the system itself needs improvement. Stay tuned.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 15:49
  • 10
    So what happened? Did we burniate crossover like we should?
    – JonH
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 15:22
  • 26
    Employees are under webcam surveillance to document that they are working ...OMFG. That's a crime in Italy (and probably in many other countries too). That bullet point alone for me means I will never, ever consider hearing from they.
    – Bakuriu
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 15:55
  • 29
    FYI, Tim has been a bit under the weather the past few days which has delayed his response but it's in progress and as soon as he is well it will be posted.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Aug 11, 2016 at 17:15
  • 6
    tl;dr: "SO Careers should not accept any future business from Crossover" => [status-declined] Commented Aug 14, 2016 at 7:50

2 Answers 2

46

I can't discuss particulars of this or any other client in a public setting, but your question stands very well on its own even as a hypothetical (let's imagine no one was named). It's pretty clear that we need some improvements:

  • You need to be able to easily say "never show me jobs from this company again." While you can currently do that as a search modifier in jobs, it's .. awkward.
  • You need an easier way to send us your reaction to any given ad. If a company is setting an image that we totally know isn't representative of what they are, we need to know about it right away. Likewise, we need to know if sharks have snuck into the pool.

With that said, there's some more to touch on here.

As long as a company is putting forth a good faith effort to use our system properly, we will provide them with a fanatical level of support and coaching in order to help them (and equally importantly) the developers using our system be successful.

I'm extremely excited about the integration of Jobs, and the kind of innovating we're doing because we're raising the bar considerably in an area that many would describe as abysmal. We're making shady and shoddy recruitment and hiring processes the new hyphen site that we're all working to eliminate. Getting better at putting together jobs for developers and filling those positions takes time, and clients can't stop hiring while they learn. This is going to be the case for many clients as we continue to strive to become the best place for developers and companies to come together.

If a company is continuously misusing our platform, either through malice or incurable obtuseness, we refund their money and wish them the best of luck. As long as our clients continue to work with us, and refine their hiring practices based upon the considerable amount of experience and coaching we provide to them, we'll continue to work with them and help them improve.

As more and more companies use the system, you're going to see methods of hiring that might seem off to you, but are extremely common in other parts of the world. I live in Manila, and it's extremely common for me to see whole-page ads in the newspaper "seeking 40 Java developers for upcoming contract". All this means is that a software company is doing a round of hiring in anticipation of an enterprise contract. We're going to be more careful in our guidance and coaching to steer people away from really ambiguous phrasing in these cases, because it can really hurt their chances of filling otherwise legitimate positions.

Try to remember, beyond everything else, that we work extremely closely with every single one of our customers. On the one hand, we can't just outright tell our clients what to do by refusing to do anything but what we think is best for them - we wouldn't have clients for very long if we did that. Instead, we coach, and we do it very progressively so that they can see the results of utilizing our input. While yes, we do have certain things that clients simply can't do, most of our guidance is structured feedback.

Finally, diligence needs to come from both ends in order for companies and candidates to have the best possible outcome. Do your research on companies, ask a lot of questions about what your working days will be like, corner them for more specifics when you feel like you need them or at least ask them why they can't provide more detail. If it doesn't seem right, pass.

We're looking now to see how quickly we can get these improvements shipped, and I'll update this post once we do.

20
  • 47
    So what you're saying is that as long as the company is using your system properly, it doesn't matter if they're shady? I can understand people willing to pass up on Crossover due to their unethical employment practices, but I'm still fairly convinced their fake companies I covered in a deleted post are red flags that should have them under as much scrutiny as a "fake" company. Can I get some elaboration on this? Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:10
  • 46
    @TimPost Has the company in question ever offered a real, provably real job on SO careers? They are, by their own admission, a platform for distributing contractors. I thought these "job shops" were something you guys were working to deliberately avoid.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:16
  • 27
    @Magisch Please understand that I'm not in a position to discuss the client. What I will say is that every person hired by them works for them and not for any of their clients. That much is available on their web site. I'm not ducking questions because I don't like the answers I can give, I'm ducking questions because I can't discuss one of our clients openly, or any information that we have about them which is privileged.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:19
  • 13
    I see a lot of leaping to “unethical” or “shady”, which is a fine conclusion to draw based on your own criteria, but that is obviously a judgment call. For us, being fraudulent or misleading is the line, and we don’t see that. We’ve been coaching them on particulars, such as better explaining who writes the checks (Crossover does), and they have been receptive.
    – Matt Sherman StaffMod
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:21
  • 34
    The problem with Crossover isn't in how they're using Jobs, it's that they're just plain scummy. They would still be scummy even if they explained all of their questionable practices directly in their job ads. I'm not surprised by this response, but I do find it very disappointing for a product that's touted as making the world a better place for developers. Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:22
  • 3
    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot - where do you put the line? What practices are OK vs not OK? What happens if a company changes their practices? Things are not black and white.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:24
  • 38
    Let me put it a different way. We treat our clients very much like we treat our users. We only care how you use our site - we don't ban people because others say "well they're a real jerk on code monkey forum" or "I worked with that user and they were really mean and did dope at their desk" - we can only look at what someone brings to our table, and make our judgement based on that alone. If our users start reporting things like fake jobs, or bait-and-switch or stuff like that, we'd definitely take that seriously. But anyway, I hope that makes it clearer.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:26
  • 7
    @Magisch No reason at all to delete your answer :) I hope someone from Crossover is able to chime in here, this definitely feels awkward, to say the least.
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 14:29
  • 27
    It's a shame the top two answers were deleted, for anyone who doesn't have the rep to see deleted posts I'll summarize them both - Don't work for crossover - they are shady and scummy PERIOD.
    – JonH
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 15:51
  • 23
    Just to clarify for those who can't see it: the two answers were deleted by their respective authors.
    – Bart
    Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 16:14
  • 31
    I gotta say, even when the answer isn't what we want to hear, the amount and quality of communication from Stack Overflow is much better than I see from most companies. Commented Aug 12, 2016 at 18:03
  • 7
    You can reduce this answer's wordiness without losing any of its content by replacing the whole thing with "caveat emptor." Commented Aug 13, 2016 at 3:38
  • 5
    @gnat This is a great idea. Feedback of job seekers on the company pages with voting on the feedback. This would be in the best tradition of StackOverflow. Commented Aug 16, 2016 at 19:06
  • 8
    You are comparing SO with newspapers in Manila and at the same time talking about raising "the bar"? These people are fraudsters clear and simple. You don't need to take money from these people. Commented Aug 24, 2016 at 15:53
  • 8
    @gnat There's a feature request to let individual users blacklist companies. Maybe this could be the type of feedback you suggested? Blacklisting should probably be kept secret, so less chance of gang-voting. I think "x% of our users have blacklisted your company" could be reasonable feedback. Commented Aug 26, 2016 at 15:02
34

I was fortunate to Google this company after doing the initial multiple choices test.

As noticed in the Quora link above, the CEO Andy Tryba "tries" to address "some misinformation" about his company. Even though he addresses 9 points, he totally fails to address the real issues, such as installing malware and treating his "employees" as slaves.

As I write this SO has 25 open positions at Crossover (and all of them featured). That's obviously a lot of money that SO stands to lose. But is that money really worth the loss of confidence from its users? At the very least SO should be able to make them disclose their dodgy business practices in their ads.

In the same Quora post he claims to have worked for the White House. He is obviously a fraud. IMHO, time for SO to put their foot down.

1
  • 18
    I was lured to apply and believe the company was legit because of the SO ad.
    – AER 4AF
    Commented Apr 7, 2018 at 2:30

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .