155

I have a gold badge but this question wasn't closed when I marked it as a duplicate.

The OP had left out the language tag, and it was only added later by an edit.

Looking closer, no less than three "golden badgers" voted to close the question, yet it still waited for 5 votes and attracted a long answer in the meantime.

The hammer should only be disabled for users who actually edited the question/tags, to prevent them abusing it. The restriction isn't going to counteract conspiracy or sockpuppetry anyway.

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  • 7
    One potential problem may arise from chat rooms where multiple gold badge holders are present. One may edit and the other may hammer (after being told so by the first user). They should find out a way to prevent this kind of abuse also. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 10:46
  • 128
    I find the presumption of abuse exceedingly distasteful. This rule invites much more abuse from the other end. If you want to make your question difficult to close then simply mis-tag it intentionally. Somebody will quickly fix it, finding 5 users to close it is going to take a while. Or never, very common these days. The moderators have plenty of ways to stop abuse by hi-rep users, a new user simply creates a new account. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 11:00
  • 3
    @BhargavRao Well, since that question needs to be edited, it will be pushed up the "recently active" list, so others will notice that (so there is some kind of review (if you like to call it that)). And if some gold badgers use that system to abuse* it, then they should be permanently banned for that. No temp ban, or warning. But that is just my opinion. (* we still need to define "abuse")
    – Tom
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 11:27
  • 5
    Why would there be a conspiracy? Closing questions doesn't even earn you reputation (unless maybe when you close it as a dupe of a question you've answered yourself).
    – Bergi
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 14:48
  • Yep agree with you @Tom. Your opinion is quite plausible. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 14:50
  • @Bergi: Well, there are badges for doing a lot of reviewing, but I think wasting time on colluding would make you earn the badge slower.
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:45
  • 3
    @Tom Abuse here probably means "colluding with others to target questions in a way that willfully circumvents the restriction". Just like getting your work buddy to upvote your question regardless of its quality.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 20:01
  • 6
    Golden badgers? GOLDEN badgers? We don't need no stinking golden badgers! Commented Sep 2, 2015 at 16:45
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    It's never seemed likely to me that the sort of person who is willing to invest the effort needed to earn a gold badge is the type to then go and abuse that privilege. Commented Sep 2, 2015 at 21:52
  • 6
    SO has a class of users called trusted users. Why don't we make the name actually meaningful? If you are a gold badger and a trusted user SO actually trusts you and the restriction on the dupe hammer are gone. There are a few gold badgers that aren't trusted yet, but if they earned a gold badge they shouldn't take so much time to reach 20k...
    – Bakuriu
    Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 8:14
  • 2
    Yes to this. And retroactively too. If I voted to close a question, it should immediately be closed if someone else applies my tag. Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 23:04
  • 1
    @Gert, should it be reopened if someone else subsequently removes your tag? Commented Sep 10, 2015 at 19:36

5 Answers 5

20

We have changed the behavior of the dupehammer. It now lets you single-handedly close as duplicate unless you have participated in editing the tag (either by adding the tag yourself, or approving an edit that did).

The whole thing is explained in detail, with screenshots, on Meta Stack Exchange: It looks like the duplicate banner changed. How does it work now?


Thanks for the suggestion!

76

This is a good idea. I don't think we should immediately assume that it's open to abuse. This feels like the right way to solve this annoyance, and we should at least try it out before jumping to conclusions.

Both actions are perfectly valid on their own: immediate editing requires a privilege, hammering requires a privilege. The whole idea is that users who earn privileges are able to make the right decision. Debatable as this is in some cases (and complaints on Meta are a pretty big bias towards the worst), if any abuse were to happen, I'm confident someone would catch it and we'd hear about it right here on Meta.

The objection that this is open to abuse because fewer users are involved doesn't make much sense. We have already turned a process that took 5 users into a process that takes 1 user (in many cases) or 2 users (if the op accepts the dupe). Why should some questions about a language take 5 users to close, when all others about that language potentially take 1? All I see this request doing is making this process more consistent, no more complex or open to abuse that what exists now.

Let's assume that editors and gold badge users are responsible enough to add the correct tags and close the correct dupes. In fact, this seems to be the conclusion the devs have already reached: the hammer is a resounding success, so let's remove this roadblock and see if the trend continues.

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    I run into this annoyance all the time in [python]. A previous user will see a question and make a good edit, including adding the [python] tag. Then I'll come along and want to close it. There's no abuse or collusion going on, both of us are using the site as intended.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 14:59
  • 3
    Question: Do we want to auto-reopen if OP (or someone else) removes the tag?
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:41
  • 3
    @Kevin I don't think so. Edits should put the post in the reopen queue like normal, where it can be evaluated like any other dupe reopen.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:46
  • OK, but then we have an asymmetry: 1 vote to close, 5 to reopen...
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:46
  • 1
    @Kevin but that's already how it is with the hammer. This doesn't change that aspect.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:49
  • 1
    Gold tag holders can reopen duplicates in one vote. But if the tag is removed... what happens? For the record, I happen to like this proposal; I just think we should figure this out first.
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:49
  • 1
    "You can instantly reopen any question closed as a duplicate that was originally asked with a tag you have a gold badge for." So the instant reopen should be applicable to edited tags too.
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:59
  • OK. Suppose Alice adds the tag, Bob dupehammers it, Carol removes the tag, and Doug (who has a gold badge) votes to reopen. What happens?
    – Kevin
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 16:00
  • 7
    @Kevin if people are adding or removing tags incorrectly, it should be reported, just as it is now. I think this is one of the cases where a mod flag or meta post would take care of it better than making the feature bulletproof to all corner cases (although I'm sure the devs will make it as good as possible).
    – davidism
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 16:03
  • Well, the OP alone can always dupe-close (though not re-open unless he has a gold-badge): Flag/Vote for dupe-closure + accept own suggestion. Commented Sep 2, 2015 at 12:05
  • @Deduplicator: s/always/(if they have 15 rep)/ Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 1:42
  • 3
    +1 -- In the python tag I hate all those who tag only with python-2.x or python-3.x instead of python and 99% of the time they shouldn't even use the version specific tags...
    – Bakuriu
    Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 8:07
  • @NathanTuggy: If we are going pedantic, it needs 50. ;-) Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 12:38
8

Make it so. What risk is there of abuse here, really? If someone incorrectly dup-hammers it, then the original asker can flag it with a custom flag to get it re-opened by a mod in the worst case. More likely, it would be someone incorrectly reading the question, adding a tag, and closing it; then the asker comments "No, I didn't mean , I really did mean , so it's not a dup", @s the closer, and the closer says "Sorry" and re-opens the question.

-2

The dupehammer is "a resounding success" and there's never been any evidence that gold badge holders tend to abuse it (Rare mistakes and rare rogue users, if any, don't count).
These users have proved trustworthy.

Therefore:
Let the gold-badger add the tag and then dupe-hammer it.

Let them edit-in the correct tag and then close the dupe. Take this away only if it is shown to be a problem (it won't be). (Or just smack down the occasional bad user.)

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    There's never been any evidence that gold badge holders tend to abuse it. Of course there isn't, they cannot edit-in the correct tag and then close the dupe yet. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 20:27
  • 5
    @FrédéricHamidi, there's never been any statistically significant abuse of the current system, so there's not likely to be abuse of the proposed change. The users have proved trustworthy. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 20:28
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    That is a fallacy which basically amounts to X works, so X+1 will work as well. Your answer is suggesting the very flaw that has been discussed in the other answers, namely that two (and in your case, one) gold badge holder can both edit the tag in and close as a duplicate afterwards. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 20:30
  • 5
    @FrédéricHamidi, Logically it is a fallacy, but it's also human nature (the logic of which is much more complicated). They are trustworthy; give them the privilege and see if it is abused (it won't be). You are convicting before the crime. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 20:32
  • While I like it, I think it's not too much more likely to be abused, I don't see it happen. At least not yet. Commented Sep 2, 2015 at 12:07
  • 2
    You just had to be called Brock to go to bat for the badgers. Commented Sep 2, 2015 at 18:11
  • 2
    Judge, jury, and executioner. Too much for me. Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 8:38
-17

Let's do a little risk/reward analysis here. Given a question that should be closed as a dupe (and for no other reason, because that would require 5 users anyway), what is the cost of letting it stay open for a little while?

  • It takes up someone's time reading and maybe answering it instead of just going to another question to find the answer.
  • Means that the OP doesn't get hit with a question ban just yet.

Combined with the fact that the question should get closed as a dupe anyway (instead of RIGHT NOW!!11!1), the cost of letting it live for a little bit seems pretty low.

So now what is the cost of implementing your suggestion?

  • Potential for collusion and abuse
  • Dealing with any potential abuse is probably harder than dealing with an open dupe.

On the flip side, implementing this allows us to close dupes faster and keep tags cleaner, which is always good.

It also stops people from abusing tagging to avoid closure. Which I'm not convinced is really a huge problem. I assume most new users don't know about this restriction (heck, I didn't until I read this post), so I can't imagine it will be abused much. Also, people can now use bounties to stave off closure of questions, but that hasn't become a big enough problem to warrant the time and energy to stop it. And even if someone does abuse the tagging, we have flags and mods for that.

Overall, I like the idea, but on balance it comes up short for me.

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    I disagree with your assessment of the "cost" of leaving duplicates open. The sooner they get closed: 1. the sooner the OP gets their answer; and 2. the less time is wasted by other users researching and writing new answers. It also reduces fragmentation, as if it isn't promptly closed the answers to the core question are now spread over two different questions.
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 14:59
  • 2
    What about the abuse of people answering the dupe question to gain rep instead of voting to close as a dupe? If someone has a gold badge then they also have access to mod tools and if we can trust them with those we should also allow them to close duplicates if someone else added the correct tag. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:06
  • 1
    @jonrsharpe 1) If getting the OP an answer faster is a priority, you can always link the potential dupe in the comments. 2) If someone has to research an answer to a problem and end up learning something as a result, that's not all bad (sure it would be faster to go to the dupe question, see 1). I agree fragmentation can be a problem, but if it is like most dupes (fairly easy, sometimes basic questions), the answers should be mostly the same (less fragmentation and more replication). Also, the dupe signpost will go up soon-ish anyway.
    – Becuzz
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:07
  • @NathanOliver Good point, however that is a separate problem.
    – Becuzz
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:10
  • 1
    @Becuzz But it is related. If we can get these question closed quickly then we don't have to have those extra systems in place. Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:12
  • 2
    @Becuzz Any time a question is CV'd or flagged as a potential duplicate, a comment linking to the target question is already automatically created.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 1, 2015 at 15:17
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    Fragmentation is a HUGE problem. For fairly trivial questions, the fragmented answers tend to be incomplete and lack good explanation, because they're posted in context of a FGITW race. For harder questions, the fragmented answers can be outright wrong (for example, advocating a style that causes undefined behavior in c++). We do not want answer fragmentation The risk of occasional misclosure, that any other gold badge user can correct, is low enough that it is dwarfed by the advantages of rapid correct closure. And actual abuse will be detected and result in bans.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Sep 2, 2015 at 16:46
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    Two counterpoints: 1. The cost of abused closure is that a question is closed that shouldn't be; this is not obviously so much worse than a question staying open that shouldn't be that it should dominate all considerations. 2. Most abuse is highly systemic; if a given user is abusing this, finding them and dealing with them will resolve a large chunk of all abuse at any given time. But this is not at all the case for askers who (deliberately or accidentally) leave out important tags; there are millions of them and there's no system to them. Commented Sep 3, 2015 at 1:45

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