225

I posted the following question on SO today: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/28373291/whats-the-relationship-between-flask-login-and-flask-security

The question was almost immediately put on hold as too broad. I believe it was a proper question. At least, when I run through the suggested checklists, the guidelines, and negative guidance it seemed to be a good question.

I did my research, it was a programming question that I believe will be frequently encountered by professional programmers using the popular python-flask framework, and it is a question that can be answered with specificity in fewer than 2 paragraphs (indeed, it can be answered in 1 sentence). Answers would also be votable, in the sense that there is a sense of both precision and correctness about the answers as it is not a subjective question.

It feels like the SO moderating system has become unconstructively restrictive over the past few years. If a question like this is too broad, and SO is restricted to truly narrow questions, does this ratchet the forum ever increasingly into answering programming minutiae rather than programming questions? This feels very much like the triumph of pedantry over principle.

Here are some of the most wildly popular, useful, and enlightening questions on SO. They are popular because they are great questions and, importantly, they contain truly great answers by truly great community members. They are good enough to be wisdoms that programmers pass on to colleagues, educators pass onto their students, and countless others bookmark. But yet, I'm quite sure that if any of these were posed today, they would immediately go on hold thanks to zealous hold-voters/moderators, and the community (and the public at large) would be unable to answer and consequently deprived of the wisdom which has delighted and educated thousands of programmers around the world:

I can't change the rules at SO, and I'm just one voice. But in the same way that one idiot can exclaim that the emperor has no clothes, I'd like to ask SO to review its rules on question scope and, as importantly, the mechanisms which allow good programming questions to be placed on hold by pedantic moderators.

The continuation of a policy of overrestriction on questions leads to a giant collection of minutiae, at the opportunity cost of building a monumental trove of programming wisdom that addresses meaningful programming questions for a global community.

4
  • 99
    @Downvoters. Note that this is a discussion. While you may disagree with the OPs point of view, this is one of the better written, less ranty questions of its kind. Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:13
  • 2
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 3:08
  • Here's an example of a recent question with two 'Two Broad' close votes within a couple of hours, which I think deserves to stay open (and has many upvotes): stackoverflow.com/questions/28446850/…
    – abligh
    Commented Feb 11, 2015 at 9:12
  • 1
    I have the feeling that its very hard to gain reputation for new users now that virtually every possible question has been answered on SO.
    – J. Chomel
    Commented Jun 2, 2016 at 9:02

7 Answers 7

56

I can't speak to your dissatisfaction with the general climate of SO, but as the first user to vote to close your question, I can speak to why I felt it was the right action to take.

I originally voted to close the question as a duplicate of another question. I had answered the previous question, and it had also been linked from the answer (now deleted) posted on your question. Yes, the wording was slightly different. Yes, you asked about two libraries while the other asked about three. But the essential question was the same, as would the answer have been. To demonstrate that point, I edited my answer to fit the wording of your question as well, without changing anything about what the answer actually said.

Your question was eventually closed as too broad. Rather than asking about a specific problem with using a library, it is basically a recommendation / "explain this code to me" question in disguise. While your question was being voted on, I recognized that the duplicate was also too broad by these same standards and voted to close it as well. In the end, both questions were treated equally.

As an active user in the tag, I felt I was correct to close your question both as a duplicate or as too broad. While you may feel that your question met the guidelines laid out elsewhere, you need to recognize that those are just guidelines and satisfying them alone does not automatically protect your question.

15
  • 3
    Hi davidism. I don't believe the questions are duplicates, and you did edit your answer to the other question in order to also answer mine. In such cases I think it would be helpful to keep my question (since it is what askers will typically land on in a search engine query) and also reference the other one as related. Irrespective: (1) your answer was very helpful (and concise...just 1 sentence!) so I upvoted it; and (2) I think neither question should be closed because they are both reasonable programming questions asked by folks who took time to do research.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:34
  • 52
    @tohster, you may be misunderstanding the purpose of duplicates on SO. Sure, this is a "close reason", but there is no shame in having your question closed as a duplicate of another (unlike the other "close reasons", or unless the lack of research effort was flagrant). Duplicates are actually useful because they provide several paths from "requirements" to a single canonical question. There is a blog post from Jeff somewhere that explains this better, but I'm lazy and I have to put my kids to bed. Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:38
  • 8
    @tohster If you now agree that my answer on the other question answered yours, then surely you also agree that they must have been duplicates in essence, otherwise the answer would not have worked for you. So either way, it should have been closed.
    – davidism
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:46
  • 3
    @davidism, I think it could be said that because (a) you answered the other question; and (b) you adjusted that answer to also answer my questions; you clearly thought that both questions merited at least your time to answer. So it's puzzling that you voted them both too broad. That said, once you adjusted your answer to the duplicate question I found it super helpful and am happy for my question to be marked as a duplicate!
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:49
  • 23
    @tohster I adjusted literally nothing of substance on my other answer, I merely reworded it slightly to satisfy your protest that they were not duplicates. And since I answered it already, why would I want to answer it again? That's what duplicate closing is for. As to closing a question I answered, I don't see the problem. That question was too broad, my answer on it does not effect that.
    – davidism
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:56
  • 1
    @davidism. Your initial answer described flask-security as a "rollup" of some other modules, which did not answer my question because a rollup could be a substitute, an inheritance, an overload, etc. You then revised your answer to describe (a) how it installs flask-login as a dependency (answering my question about the relationship between the two) and (b) that one should use the flask-security methods over the dependency methods, which also answers my question around duplicate methods. So your original answer was not helpful, but your new answer was excellent and i'm thankful for it.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 1:41
  • 9
    @tohster Your inability to understand what my answer meant doesn't effect whether the question was a duplicate. In fact, no answer in any form effects whether questions are duplicates. Please stop (a) (b)'ing me and just graciously end the conversation.
    – davidism
    Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 1:46
  • 1
    @davidism. The interpretation of your original answer is not subjective. It was objectively unhelpful. Your revised answer is also objectively better than your previous one. It is civil form to end a conversation by agreeing to disagree.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 1:55
  • 1
    @tohster Regarding "So it's puzzling that you voted them both too broad.". It seems that davidism didn't vote to close your question as too broad, but as duplicate, but because more people voted to close it as too broad this reason is shown (it doesn't mean that all voters used their vote on this reason).
    – Pshemo
    Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 18:41
  • @pshemo if it helps clarify, yes he and others did put the question on hold as too broad.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 18:56
  • 14
    @tohster OK, I agree that he is among people who decided to vote to close your question. I just want to clarify that his vote wasn't to close your question as "too broad" but as "duplicate of ...". Just because "too broad" reason is shown under your question with list of close-voters, it doesn't mean that all of them picked too-broad reason, but that majority of them did.
    – Pshemo
    Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 19:06
  • 2
    If all it takes is one sentence to answer your question then that probably should've been posted as a comment to the pre-existing answer asking to incorporate a bit of extra information. I feel like the starting point of the discussion is about something different from the actual situation. Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 16:54
  • 4
    @FrédéricHamidi blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/11/…
    – Scimonster
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 14:13
  • Is "explain this code to me" a bad question? Is not trying to understand a concept (providing the person did their homework) a concrete answerable in a few paragraphs question? Perhaps the guidelines can be improved if even when one satisfies the guidelines it does not mean that their question is worthy. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 19:18
  • 2
    @zespri yes, explain this code / concept is a bad question: Meta 1, Meta 2. Anticipating every corner case of "bad" things a question can do is impossible, which is why we have guidelines plus reviewers. If you have some suggestion about a new wording for that section, that would be appropriate for it's own post, not as further comment here.
    – davidism
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 19:23
55

Stack Overflow does not have to cater to every single kind of question you choose to think of.

It is not a blogging platform, or a tutorial platform, or an index for third-party resources, or a forum, or a discussion board, or a chat. The example questions you posted are mostly pretty rubbish but have been either:

  • wildly upvoted by the hordes who either don't understand or don't care that this is not one of the kinds of websites I listed above, and kept only out of practical concern for an unforunately high number of inbound hyperlinks across the web, or
  • given special dispensation because their value to the site (e.g. as a reference question that can allow us to close many thousands of repetitive drivel as duplicates) overruled their off-topicness.

To that end, this constant "moderators are too strict" nonsense that keeps popping up on meta is just that: nonsense. It's especially telling that you do not understand how the site's model works: "moderators" have nothing to do with it! High-rep community members do.

That all being said, none of this has anything to do with your question, which was closed because it was too broad. You did not present a concrete problem statement, but invited open discussion on an underspecified issue. Nobody's saying that you shouldn't do that; just don't do it here. There are other places to go for that kind of thing, which is great! The internet flourishes with its diversity. There is no reason to begin allowing broad, blog-style guides on SO and consequently no reason to constantly moan about our having not done so.

2
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 20:54
  • Can you expand on the role of high-rep community members vs moderators have on stackoverflow? Where you said "moderators" have nothing to do with it! High-rep community members do". Thanks. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 22:50
45

I think that the biggest issue is that people reading your question don't understand what your use case is.

Your title was What's the relationship between flask-login and flask-security?

You yourself might know what the word "relationship" means in that title, but for the rest of us, the word "relationship" can mean multiple things.

  • You might want to know which module you should use.
  • You might already be using one, but you are having doubts about whether or not you should be using the other also/instead.
  • You might just want to be aware of what all of your authentication options are.
  • You might be reading an existing code base, and you just want to know what it's doing and why.

Your question itself doesn't necessary tell us which one it is. We would have to answer each one of those answers, potentially in multiple ways, to be sure that we covered exactly the piece of knowledge that you're looking for.


If you want to improve the question, you could try mentioning an example project, or some other real-word problem for us to anchor to. That would help a lot.

6
  • 4
    Hi @samiam. While it is possible to answer any question in an unreasonably large number of ways, I think this one could be answered very precisely. Indeed, davidism has provided an answer which I found accurate and thoughtful: "Flask-Security rolls up Flask-Login, -Principal, and some other extensions into a more coherent whole, installing them as dependencies. Use the methods it provides rather than the ones from the individual extensions when possible". These 2 sentences would be very helpful to any programmer looking at Flask Security or Flask Login.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 6, 2015 at 22:37
  • @tohster just because one person was able to guess properly at what you were asking, doesn't automatically mean the question was clear. Unfortunately I don't know enough about this subject to have an opinion on your question specifically. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 19:59
  • 1
    +1 this. @tohster, if you'd simply retitled your question to state a specific concrete issue, like, say, "Can I use both flask-login and flask-security together?", I expect it would not have been closed. Admittedly, there's a certain amount of skill involved in phrasing questions for SO, but the main trick, in my experience, is to make it obvious, even to people unfamiliar with the subject, that your question has an answer. "Yes/no" questions, like I suggested, are good that way, as are "how" questions. But "what is the relationship between X and Y?" just sounds hopelessly vague. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 20:44
  • @IlmariKaronen totally agree that a yes/no answer would have made the question more objective. Sadly, it would have made it not useful to me as I wasn't looking to work with both or for a y/n answer. A didactic example: "what's the relationship between scipy and numpy?". I think it's a common python question. It can be answered helpfully and accurately in a paragraph (goo.gl/uYWfZx). Here, I deliberately chose a question with an FAQ-answer to demonstrate, but many API's don't have FAQ's so I think these are reasonable questions for SO and can be answered accurately and concisely.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 21:47
  • 1
    @tohster: The thing is, I can think of at least half a dozen or so different kinds of relationships (historical, organizational, scope, purpose, compatibility, dependency, etc.) between, say, scipy and numpy that someone might want to ask about, and each would have a different answer. It's like one of those silly riddles like "how is a duck like a banana?" -- sure, there are dozens of technically correct answers, but you'd have to read the asker's mind to know which one they're looking for. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 22:04
  • @IlmariKaronen confronting that ambiguity is a big part of what causes rules to sprout, and vast amounts time spent enforcing them. Killing the question may just cause it to sprout again in the future, because it's hard to kill popularity. Why not let the question sit and ask folks to think, "what answer would programmers find most useful?", then let the crowd vote. There will usually emerge a useful answer. Killing the question short-changes the creativity of the community.It's better to challenge talented members to write helpful answers with their time than to ask them for hold/kill chores.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 22:27
17

Much of the "moderation activity" on SO is a sort of balancing act.

As in: How do we keep the cruft out while still allowing the useful content in.

In search of this balance the community has decided that certain types of questions are more likely to collect cruft and it has decided that these questions shouldn't be allowed.

This all may seem really obvious, but it looks like you're saying that we should lower some of these restrictions in order to gain more useful content. Most users would argue the opposite; in their opinion the site is overrun with cruft and more restrictions need to be added.

How would you suggest that we remove or reduce these limitations without opening the door for a whole lot of awful content?

The site's policies are always, more or less, open to debate. Suggest a solution to the perceived problem and it may become the new policy.

Just keep in mind that these are issues that the community has been chewing on since the site started. Most of the things that come up, come up over and over again. The policies that are in place now are an accumulation of debates that the community has hashed out several times.

9
  • 1
    Well put. Perhaps a decent starting point is, what is deemed cruft? Given the choice between an excellent subjective question and an esoteric objective question, should the risk of cruft be decided by voters, or by a privileged few? This isn't a novel problem. It's the ancient censorship debate. One way to calibrate this is, pull up the most voted questions on SO and ask: does the current system of oversight nurture these sorts of questions? Decisions to evolve policy that fail (or disregards) the regressive test should be run through a redesign process... .
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 19:41
  • 1
    ... If a great question is more likely to accumulate cruft, then attack that risk instead of throwing out the question. For those questions, put a giant "subjective" label, limit comments from junior members, limit answer length. Create design constraints instead of brute force censorship that kills good questions. More permissive policy results in less, not more work for overseers (when there is less censorship there are fewer censors). Technology enabled crowdsourcing is at the core of what made SO great to begin with... evolve the tech rather than reject it in favor of empowering the few.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 19:50
  • 3
    @tohster "by a privileged few?" There are nearly 7,000 users with more than 10k rep and hence access to mod tools, there are another 19,000 users with more than 3k and hence close vote privileges... Things are pretty well crowd sourced.
    – apaul
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 3:17
  • 1
    @tohster "If a great question is more likely to accumulate cruft" That's a bit of a leap. Subjective questions vary rarely make great questions.
    – apaul
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 3:20
  • 2
    @tohster "More permissive policy results in less, not more work for overseers" Again I don't think I agree with you here... In many ways the "censorship" that is currently in place is holding back a rising tide of awful content. As soon as those dams are removed its pretty fair to expect a flood.
    – apaul
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 3:24
  • 3
    @tohster I get the feeling you haven't spent a lot of time reviewing, flagging, and participating in the day to day grind.
    – apaul
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 3:28
  • 1
    apaul, the usefulness of a programming question is orthogonal to how objective it is ("what is 2+2" vs "what is a metaclass?"), so I think objectivity=quality is a dogma trap. It may be easier to moderate an objective question, but I think conflating "easier to moderate" with "low quality" leads to a set of rules and a culture which focuses overly on pedantic issues of scope and favors the narrow over the good.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 10:20
  • apaul, the amount of time users/mods spend reviewing questions is commendable. My point on permissiveness is systemic: say 5 users vote an issue too broad, then it sits in queue, then gets reviewed and 5 more vote to close it. A lot of human energy focused on these negative chores => grumpy users. Why not reduce the amount of oversight and instead free up that time for those same talented users to earn points and read/write/answer/vote on questions. Allow questions to sink/swim with the crowd and then apply more aggressive automated expiration/closing once the crowd has voted.
    – tohster
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 10:36
  • 1
    @tohster Its a little dated but it may help: blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/09/good-subjective-bad-subjective
    – apaul
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 13:14
10

I don't think that Stack Overflow is narrowed down to irrelevance. I do believe strongly that Stack Overflow is becoming more and more a forum for junior developers only. The only time that a senior developer can be helped is when we are working with a new technology or something that we don't do a lot. Most senior developers can answer 95% of questions asked on this site in the technologies that they are senior in.

That said, when we have a question, it rarely fits in the "what is wrong with this line of code" category and will often be closed. That is one of the reasons I left Stack Overflow for a while and chose to not answer questions much when I came back and started another account.

More and more I find that the majority of my questions cannot be answered on Stack Overflow because anyone that had ever asked had the question closed or mine is closed. Really I think normal users with high rep should be able to flag a question for a moderator, but not vote to close it.

9
  • 14
    Regarding your last sentence, what exactly would that accomplish except for massively increasing the workload burden on moderators? It seems you don't understand the Stack Exchange model, where increased rep results in increased privileges and results in a self-moderating community that doesn't require a handful of individuals to nanny us all the time. Commented Feb 7, 2015 at 22:07
  • 4
    Except someone that we fired for incompetence because he could not meet a deadline or write his own working line of code has 20k rep on this site. There are some great people on this site that use their rep wisely. There are also some that abuse that power. In response to the original post that is the limiting factor to what SO can be. Only junior questions can be asked and answered on this site. When you get beyond why does this line of code not work the questions get closed. Again that is fine if that is the model, but it is limiting to what SO used to be and could grow back into.
    – Jimmy
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 7:04
  • 12
    @Jimmy Can you give examples of questions getting closed for being too advanced? I've definitely seen more obscure/difficult questions see less activity or not get answered (as is natural, as less people are capable fo answering them), but not closed. Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 11:30
  • 4
    The starting of a new account may not have been productive: if you have some reputation points on the old one, you can spend them on bounties where the problem needs expert attention. (Of course, you should not operate more than one account in parallel).
    – halfer
    Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 11:33
  • 2
    Sure, there are high rep users who don't really know what they're doing. But by having the moderation tools open to the huge pool of high rep users you dilute this effect, rather than consolidating it to three or four moderators who (hypothetically — I'm not talking specifically about the current ones) also may not have any idea what they're doing. No system's perfect but rep accrual isn't a bad approximation. Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 15:31
  • 12
    @Lattyware: It's a common misconception I've seen here. "My question must have been closed because it was too difficult/advanced/domain-specific" No mate it was closed because you did not present a concrete problem statement :P Commented Feb 8, 2015 at 15:32
  • 7
    One line in this answer sums up my current unhappiness: "That said when we have a question it rarely fits in the 'what is wrong with this line of code' category and will often be closed." Yes. Exactly. "What's wrong with this line of code," is the scope toward which we're headed, and it's an awfully narrow scope.
    – Novak
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 3:01
  • 2
    @Novak I see plenty of great questions that are not "What is wrong with this line of code" every day that are not closed. Certainly there are those kinds of questions as well, but its not just those questions.Of course, if its php, then it may be a different story ;) "Compare these two things" isn't really a good Q&A in my opinion, so I don't support broadening our scope to include them. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 18:55
  • I agree with this..in fact the difficult questions never/seldom get answered (unless it can be done in a way that rewards heaps of reputation). People do have the tendency to avoid the low-rep-generating topics/content because this is the way the system is laid out and meant to be played.
    – prusswan
    Commented May 16, 2015 at 14:57
4

I can't comment on OP's original question (knowing nothing about flask). However, I think there is a natural tension between (on the one hand), having questions that are sufficiently broad that they are likely to be useful to someone other than the OP, and having questions that are so broad there is no real answer.

Narrowness can be a problem too. For instance, I close-voted one question I cannot now find that was not only a "here's my homework, please do it as I'm too lazy" question (not strictly prohibited) on the basis it was so narrow, an answer could only ever have been of use to someone equally lazy with exactly the same question.

Difficult problems are inherently broad. Here's the first question I ever asked on SO. It's inherently broad, and arguably there is no right answer. However, I'm arrogant enough to think it is not a bad question (for a first question, anyway), and apparently the up-voters agreed with me. However, SO is full of far narrower questions many of which are far worse. If you hang about the C tag, you'll see the same 'debug my badly written C' problems again and again. Many of them are very specific, and are unlikely to be of much use to any other read (if we don't count the injunction to go read the man-page for sscanf rather than post on SO).

Here's what 'too broad' actually says:

too broad: There are either too many possible answers, or good answers would be too long for this format. Please add details to narrow the answer set or to isolate an issue that can be answered in a few paragraphs.

Sadly, I'm therefore not convinced that's how it's being used in practice. In practice it seems to be being used as 'I can't answer your question fully in less than 30 seconds', which almost means 'non-trivial'; non-triviality is a good thing. And the most valuable answers (to me anyway) are the ones that obviously took far more than 30 seconds to write.

One use people seem to want it for is 'write a program for me' questions. One such an example is 'How in C do I capitalise the first character of each word in a string?'. Last time this came up, it got a couple of 'too broad' close votes. But it isn't 'too broad' by that definition - it's 3 lines of code. It might lack an MCVE, but that's a different close reason ('off-topic').

So, I'm trying to work what types of undesirable questions there are that are 'too broad' but are neither 'off-topic' (including the 'seeking recommendations' one) nor 'primarily opinion based'. Right now I can't think of any.

I have a feeling 'too broad' does narrow us too much, and is thus a bad thing. The other close reasons appear adequate to fill its shoes if it were deleted.


Addendum: another way to look at this is rather than try to find ways to close the cruft, we should be encouraging upvoting of good questions. I keep trying to remind myself to upvote well-written interesting questions, but often forget. I suspect if there were ten times as many upvotes (in total) as there are today, the improvement in signalling of quality would be far greater than any language-lawyering we can do around close vote reasons.

3
  • "Too Broad" is very useful for "Write my program for me" questions Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 20:09
  • @BradleyDotNET many of those are actually 'too narrow' to be of use to other readers. I generally use the MCVE 'off-topic' close reason for those - as by definition they don't contain an MCVE.
    – abligh
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 20:13
  • 2
    Btw, I wouldn't think you question is "too broad". I use "Too Broad" when the asker is asking for too much and/or hasn't sufficiently decomposed the problem. Difficulty is not a factor. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 20:16
2

Your experience is one of many reason why SO stopped being fun some time ago. Instead of being fun it is stressful now. For both, asking questions and answering them. Even for reviewing.

Downvotes, negativity, punishments and close requests where ever you look. I have no idea if this can be improved or if it is necessary (due to the low quality of new content).

Still SO is useful and the best site of its kind you can find in the Web but anyway for me it surely is not fun anymore.

8
  • 12
    Mission accomplished.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 11:37
  • 3
    @BoltClock: What is your point? Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 11:56
  • 1
    Did you click through to read the linked blog about precisely this topic? (Maybe you made the mistake I did -- assume BoltClock linked to XKCD #810. He didn't.)
    – tripleee
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 15:16
  • 5
    @BoltClock that is talking about the old-school silly purely-for-fun-and-giggles questions. It does not say "It should not be fun to participate on SO". If people feel that it is not fun to participate on SO then that seems like something that deserves more consideration than a link to a blog post that happens to include the word "fun", but is otherwise unrelated. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 18:29
  • 2
    @jalf SO is here as a tool. It is a place to go to learn, or to share knowledge. It is not a place to go to entertain yourself. If you're out to learn something, particularly something difficult, it's going to involve some work, and for many people, that won't be particularly fun. Spending time to craft a quality question, improve it in response to feedback, and then evaluate the answers given is most certainly challenging (to do well) as it should be. Asking good questions is hard, and SO works very hard to force people to only ask good questions. No pain, no gain.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 20:37
  • @Servy: There is a fundamental rule in the web... if you want people to devote to a service, let have them fun. Maybe SO is an exception being a "tool" and "a place to learn". I am not sure about this. Learning and using a tool can and should also be (a bit) fun from my point a view. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 21:37
  • @Silicomancer For those portions of the web that are only out there to get users (and therefore ad revenue), yes, it can be appropriate to put entertainment of the user above all else. Of course, the number of such sites that create quality content that others will find useful beyond their entertainment value tends to be quite a lot lower. While I certainly wouldn't say that one couldn't have fun using the site, or that it is important that it be a miserable experience, fundamentally creating quality programming information is the goal of the site, not to entertain.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 21:40
  • 1
    @Servy how is that relevant to what I said? I said nothing about going on SO to entertain yourself, and I said nothing about whether or not it should be challenging to write questions or answers. Commented Feb 9, 2015 at 21:48

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .