-8

Update: Honestly, I don't understand all the downvotes. It must mean that people on Meta here don't want to talk about this issue anymore. Do people think the problem is solved? Yes there are many bad questions that need to be flushed out. But many answerers have gotten so hasteful that they assume everything is wrong at the first hint of imperfection.

I can see my help isn't wanted here, so I'm not going to spend my time fighting the system here. Do what you want guys, I don't feel like this is an environment where I can contribute.

Original:

While I understand it's necessary to upkeep question-quality so that its easier for answerers to find good questions to answer, undeniably the process of having your question closed without any comments to guide you is incredibly frustrating, especially for newbies.

I'm no newbie, but I've certainly had my fair share of frustrating interactions. And I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always the most calm-headed person. But we should all be aware that people have emotions and not everyone can be calm all the time.

For anyone that isn't aware of this frustration, it's pretty common:

It seems that the frustrations of answerers seems to also play into this. Askers want to find questions to answer and so have an incentive to get rid of unpleasant questions so fewer will be unpleasant. I certainly understand that it can be frustrating to have to sift through bad questions, and how that can lead to less than stellar commentary (or most often, no commentary). It can also lead to assumption of bad faith - I've noticed that some users see one or two mistakes and then assume you didn't do any research or that you didn't even try to write a good question.

Why reducing frustration would help SO and other Stack Exchanges

  1. New answerers probably start off as new askers. While retention of answerers is important, so is attracting new ones, and if they are frustrated by the site, fewer will translate into answerers.
  2. When a user feels like they have been treated unfairly (whether or not its actually true), a nice user can often be turned into a hostile one: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/30905631/is-adobe-air-still-actively-supported . Hostile users can take up more of everyone's time because instead of a constructive discussion, ad hominem attacks and poorly focused arguments happen.
  3. The hostility may also reduce the number of bad questions that are turned into good questions, because of the aforementioned arguments that result out of frustration.

In Summary

Are there things we could do to make the process of improving sub-par questions less frustrating for both askers and answerers?

19
  • I'm assuming that you mean things that do not move the effort of improving sub-par questions from those who asked them to the SO contributors who are expected to provide answers? Feb 15, 2016 at 0:00
  • 4
    'The hostility may also reduce the number of bad questions that are turned into good questions' - it would be interesting to see numbers on how many bad questions get turned into good questions. Please forgive my pessimism, but I suspect that it's a very, very small number indeed. Feb 15, 2016 at 0:09
  • 2
    @MartinJames Thinking about it as who should make the effort probably isn't fruitful in my opinion. Instead we should consider website structures and policy that will reduce overall effort needed.
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 0:33
  • 2
    Question: are people down voting this question because they think it isn't a question that should be considered, because I asked it poorly, or because they don't agree with my premises?
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 0:35
  • 1
    Well, I guess major points against it are 1. that it doesn't add anything new, 2. that the linked posts illustrate that the problem is actually the one complaining nearly all the time, and 3. that in those cases the linked questions highlight, there were loads of good and patient personalized guidance, or the problem was already long solved, if it wasn't imaginary from the beginning. Feb 15, 2016 at 0:41
  • 2
    @Deduplicator 1. Where has the focus of frustration been explicitly discussed before? Should this conversation be continued there? None of the questions I linked make frustration a focus (rather they make hostility, or the ease of closing questions the focus). 2. I didn't ask this question to debate whether or not question askers are usually at fault. No matter who's fault it is, frustration is a problem. 3. I doubt you're really saying that every problem case gets "good and patient personalized guidance", but that sounds like what you're implying.
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 0:49
  • 3
    @BT The thing is, many posts have already been made that list possible actions to help with this issue. Far too many of them suggest moving the effort for improving/fixing/whatever bad questions from those who ask them to those who answer them. I would find any such approach unacceptable. Feb 15, 2016 at 0:49
  • 1
    @MartinJames it would be interesting to see numbers on how many bad questions get turned into good questions It would be more interesting to see how those numbers have changed over time as SO has gotten more strict.
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 1:06
  • 1
    No, the real problem is not solved, but this question also does not give any new and/or slightly promising direction to follow. Feb 15, 2016 at 2:43
  • Looks like you're feeling attacked by the downvotes, I think it shouldn't discourage you from contributing...
    – brasofilo
    Feb 15, 2016 at 3:19
  • @MartinJames I remember some stats about closure, reopening and edit and reopening, but I can't find it. I think Shog posted it, but I can't be sure.
    – Braiam
    Feb 15, 2016 at 4:16
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    We have tried all kinds of things before to 'soften the blow' of question closure. Quite a while ago, we renamed it to putting a question "on hold". It didn't actually have any measurable impact. No one cares what it's called, or how it's presented, or whatever procedural stuff we do. All they care about is Y I NO GET TEH CODEZ?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Feb 15, 2016 at 10:12
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    Want to have less frustration? Stop taking down- and close votes personally. In this case, the frustration is completely under the control of the person frustrated. Feb 15, 2016 at 17:57
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    @brasofilo All I see is lots of users telling me I'm not offering anything new and that all my ideas suck. While Deduplicator seems to agree that the problem isn't solved, no one is telling me where I should go to discuss solving it, since by the downvotes, clearly asking this question has been deemed the wrong place for it. I see the problems I'm talking about in my OP mirrored in the results of this post itself. How meta, right? So what would you suggest?
    – B T
    Feb 16, 2016 at 6:58
  • 1
    @MikeMcCaughan Its not about taking them personally, its about feeling unfairly treated. You can be unfairly treated for purely impersonal reasons, and I believe that's by far the most common thing on SO. In which case, frustration is not in fact under the control of the person feeling frustrated.
    – B T
    Feb 16, 2016 at 7:00

2 Answers 2

7

Well, you cannot have your question closed without any comment to guide you.

Granted, that comment can be a bit generic, but it links to lots of additional in-depth information.
The problem isn't lack of guidance, but unwillingness to be bothered with anything but a direct answer to the question they had in mind (not the one they wrote, mind).

Can we get the askers to at least read the on-topic and how-to-ask pages, or otherwise invest a bit of effort into making a useful question, and making sure it makes sense to someone else but them?
Somewhere between difficult and impossible, people very easily get so focused on what they want that they stop paying attention to anything which might them help achieve that, sometimes even if it is the solution they search.

But unless you solve that problem, find a way to clear the hopeless cases out of the way more efficiently, or have some really big hordes of tutors hidden away to put on the problem, individual guidance for everyone is simply a pipe-dream.

7
  • 1
    By "comment" I mean a comment someone actually writes, not a selection from a list. I find that the text of chosen selections often don't describe the real reason very accurately.
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 0:37
  • 4
    That, and time spent on supplying specifc and dedicated close-reasons is time not spent on answering good questions:( Feb 15, 2016 at 0:55
  • 1
    @MartinJames Well that would be obvious abuse that could be dealt with appropriately. And, true, but certainly you wouldn't suggest the extreme of never helping a user understand how they can improve, would you? That would expend the minimum time spend away from answering good questions. Where do you draw that line?
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 1:12
  • @BT People are already encouraged to comment how to improve things. But you suggested forcing everyone who deals with the question to also add a custom-made manual comment. Please try to understand what you said and he then answers to. If you meant to say something different, well, it happens. Feb 15, 2016 at 1:16
  • 1
    @Deduplicator People may be encouraged to, but they often don't, even when the OP makes attempts to clarify and improve things. I don't understand the rest of your comment : / . Perhaps rephrase?
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 1:33
  • 1
    @BT I would not suggest an SO policy of 'never helping a user understand how they can improve' because, currently, SO has next-to-no control over such behaviour and I can't see any reasonable way of changing that. "I think this user has a good and interesting question underneath that waffle, I'll try to extract it" is a valid response to a bad question, as is "down/close immediate, I haven't time to recycle trash today". Feb 15, 2016 at 9:35
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    @BT: "And, true, but certainly you wouldn't suggest the extreme of never helping a user understand how they can improve, would you?" ... yes. If a user isn't willing to make even a token effort, then I'm not willing to make a token effort back. Feb 15, 2016 at 17:42
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Some possibilities:

  1. Require a comment for every question close vote.

  2. More options for canned close reasons. Often times I see a question marked as a duplicate, when the question itself is not a duplicate but contains an answer to the other question. Calling this a duplicate is consistently confusing. If one of the close reasons is "has an answer in another question", it would be less confusing.

  3. Make procedure more immediately clear. Especially, this guidance should appear directly in the note on the question page "Closed questions that receive edits within the first 5 days of closure are automatically put into a review queue to be considered for reopening." It would be nice if it added something like "Once an edit is made this process usually takes X days". If its clear what to do, users won't lash out as much.

  4. Find some way to dilute the frustration of answerers so it doesn't build up so much. Perhaps having enforced breaks of a day or two every once in a while for those going through questions to answer?

8
  • 1. It's a bit more popular to demand that for downvotes, but still not even novelty value. 2. Do you really want decision paralysis or people just giving up on it so much? 3. The closed-notice already says what they have to do to get their question reconsidered. And it links to a slightly longer help-page containing the most pertinent details, and linking to the rest. The problem is, those same users are not interested in any distractions coming between them and the answer they are entitled to. 4. So, you want to thin out the answerers? That results in more individual tutoring? Are you sure? Feb 15, 2016 at 0:47
  • 1
    @Deduplicator 2. I doubt one or two more options would cause any decision paralysis. 3. Yes it does, but it does not provide any indication of how long it might take to reopen when fixed or how that might happen. Part of a newbie's frustration of having their answer closed is the uncertainty of how it will get reopened. 4. I'm putting my thoughts out there for discussion, and I'd appreciate a more constructive tone. I understand the obvious downside and mentioned this idea in the hopes someone might be able to mitigate it or come up with a similar idea that doesn't have that downside.
    – B T
    Feb 15, 2016 at 1:00
  • I'm a little bit confused about why "has an answer in another question" is not the same thing as "duplicate". Follow my logic here: you ask a question in order to get an answer. If another question already contains the answer to your question, then that other question must cover the same ground as yours and therefore be a duplicate. Plus, you get your answer, so why would anyone be complaining about their question being marked as a duplicate??
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Feb 15, 2016 at 10:14
  • 3
    "Find some way to dilute the frustration of answerers so it doesn't build up so much." I resent the implication here that I (or anyone else) votes to close questions out of pure frustration. Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I'm frustrated by the volumes of crap that get posted to SO every second. But that's not why I vote to close questions. I vote to close questions because they are fundamentally impossible to answer with the information provided and/or in complete violation of the established rules/scope of this site. I use most of my close votes each day, and there are no close calls.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Feb 15, 2016 at 10:16
  • 1
    Yes, it's quite easy to use up all down/close votes just on 'do all my building, testing and debugging for me, I can't be bothered to do any of that boring stuff 'cos the bars are open' questions. Feb 15, 2016 at 10:44
  • 1
    @CodyGray Consider these questions: "What color is grass?" and "What color is Midori?". Both have the same answer: "green". And yet its abundantly clear they aren't duplicate questions. Do you see where I'm coming from here?
    – B T
    Feb 16, 2016 at 6:49
  • Sure, you can come up with a contrived example. I don't see much of that in the real world on Stack Overflow.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Feb 16, 2016 at 6:52
  • 1
    @CodyGray Here's an example: stackoverflow.com/questions/32641387/…
    – B T
    Feb 16, 2016 at 7:03

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