54

Verifying answers which contain code from a mobile application is at the very least problematic, and at worst impossible.

On Stack Overflow, asking a question is supposed to be based on a specific programming question. It should be detailed, well researched, and answerable.

Preferably it should contain some source code reproducing the noted behavior if applicable. Almost every well received question includes some sort of code or code reference.

Posting a question will often require attentiveness in order to either support claims made, offer clarifications, or respond to answers.

These three facets are all negatively impacted by using a mobile application on Stack Overflow. Other exchanges may be different which is why I am only bringing this up here.

The sole use of a mobile device makes it hard to have a programming question which is going to be well researched and detailed. This is based on the assumption that typing on a mobile device is hindered compared to using a traditional keyboard. It is also based on the assumption that producing research from a very small device with below average browsing speed is hampered. Further, it is highly unlikely any actual debugging took place.

Even if the hurdles of composing a question are met, the OP will also encounter hurdles with answers. Being attentive from a mobile device is simply going to take more time than on a traditional device. Being able to verify any answer containing code is again going to be severely impacted by not being able to execute the code.

Mobile users on Stack Overflow are going to encounter extra hurdles to providing quality questions and verifying answer content. While experienced users may be used to both the system and verifying answer content by observation alone, new users to the system are not going to be as familiar.

Should new users be asking questions on Stack Overflow from their mobile devices?*

* Excluding tablets.

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  • 58
    It would actually be interesting to see if mobile use has some impact on quality.
    – Bart
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:37
  • 5
    @πάντα-ῥεῖ - How often do you see well composed examples from new users? I believe a large amount of questions asked from new users on a mobile application are text only (no code).
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:38
  • 1
    @Bart I'm seeing a lot of bad (and pretty basic) c++ questions kinda "hiding" behind tags like e.g. android. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:39
  • 9
    @TravisJ On the same token, most questions from new users fall into that trap, irrespective of posting device. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:39
  • 2
    @BradleyDotNET - Most users do not indicate their post is from a mobile application. Further, low quality questions tend to get swept under the rug quickly - which in itself is a burden on the community.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:39
  • 2
    @TravisJ I agree that quality isn't likely to be improved by posting on mobile. Just trying to point out what I see as relevant facts. I'm honestly a bit divided on your idea at the moment. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:42
  • 5
    @πάνταῥεῖ - No we should not do that. Mobile development is primarily done from a desktop or laptop and they constantly use those tags.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:43
  • 30
    "i cant post a snippet because im using a phone". Oh, okay, bye. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 0:58
  • 4
    @Hans Passant: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/281704/…
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 3:57
  • 5
    What will be next? Assume better/worse question quality by country?
    – Micka
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:50
  • 6
    I honestly have no idea how it is possible to write decent questions or answers on a phone. A tablet maybe. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 18:46
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: For a 1440p or higher resolution tablet with keyboard dock... likely no problem whatsoever.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:03
  • 3
    If a question is good, then it's a good question. The device used to post it is irrelevant. I'd assume that the vast majority of posts posted using a mobile device are worse than if the author was using a computer, but is that a reason to ban posting? I'm with Bart, data is needed.
    – Ben
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:37
  • 7
    There are apps for doing development on tablets. People use them. Heck, some folks even get real coding work done using SSH from a smartphone — just because some of us find that inconvenient doesn't mean others aren't productive enough there to have meaningful questions to ask.
    – rickster
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:50
  • 2
    It's not entirely clear what you're asking here to be honest. Are you simply asking for opinions on whether users should ask programming questions from a mobile device, or are you proposing an enforceable policy against asking programming question from a mobile device? I personally think it's stupid to insist on posting a programming question from a mobile device unless you're programming on the device which is still extremely unlikely in the current day and age, and I state as much in the answer I linked to in my earlier comment...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:58

7 Answers 7

43

As you say, it is next to impossible to ask good programming questions from a handheld device (I agree that SO is quite different from, for example, travel.SE). Valid mobile use cases involve searching for and reading existing answers, and commenting.

However, the "mobile" apps also run on computing platforms which are more appropriate for asking questions, such as netbooks. It's not worth the technical effort to try and differentiate one Android device from another.

Besides, as the comments point out, removing the "Ask Question" button from mobile apps wouldn't have much impact on the total volume of bad questions.

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    "However, the "mobile" apps also run on computing platforms which are more appropriate for asking questions, such as netbooks." - um, who would run Android on a netbook instead of a "real" linux distro? Nevertheless, the problem with verifying answers should still be the same, right? It would be very hard if not impossible to verify most answers containing any code on Android, let alone debug them.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 8:51
  • 7
    @l4mpi: There are plenty of Android tablets with keyboard docks and higher resolution than most PCs; they are ideal for running remote desktop sessions. I don't think there's benefit to requiring people to cut+paste their code into a browser in the remote desktop session vs an app on the thin client. And such a high-resolution screen on a highly-connected device is also plenty useful for using web-based IDEs. So your concept that they aren't viable tools in the development process seems rather uninformed.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:00
  • 2
    @l4mpi Just to provide an anecdote as someone who actually did this: I spent several months away from home with a Nexus 7 tablet and a fold-out keyboard for a computer. I mostly do JavaScript answers, so I could verify and answer plenty of questions using JSFiddle. (As a side note, I also SSHed into a server set up for coding, which I used to test Node.js solutions.) When I could get my hands on a real computer, it was way better, sure, but the tablet+keyboard worked well enough to write dozens of answers.
    – apsillers
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 2:54
29

Mobile devices today may be difficult to write good questions on. A few years ago, it was virtually impossible. In 2-5 years? Maybe they'll be more powerful or even have completely replaced traditional computing devices.

I think this type of 'feature' would be short-sighted. Users who write bad questions will get their feedback in the form of swift and brutal down-voting.

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  • 1
    exactly my thoughts!
    – Micka
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 13:53
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    This question isn't about "in 2-5 years" but about "right now". Does it make sense to make posting questions from the app a reputation-based privilege right now? It absolutely does, in my opinion. If that changes in a few years and every smartphone now comes with a C compiler (good luck with Apple devices for this one!), then we could surely reevaluate this decision.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 14:39
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    I use SO from my surface tablet, which has several compilers running on it. There's no such thing as a mobile device, even today they have vast differences in capabilities. You don't know what the user is using, and as intel and everyone else changes gears to mobile (which they're already doing) your assumptions are going to be progressively more wrong. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 14:45
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    @NicolasHolthaus but you are certainly not using the SE app to post, right? I know that anybody who knows what they're doing would use a browser to access SO when asking a question. And I know that any device sufficiently equipped for programming has a fully functional browser. FWIW I consider a surface tablet a laptop, it's definitely not in the same category of a smartphone.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 15:14
  • sure, sometimes, and also from my galaxy s5. It really just depends what device I have handy. It's a bit of a pain to write code, but not impossible, and sometimes easier then getting up and turning on a desktop ;) Also, not all good questions require code (or more than a few simple lines), and those are faster for me to do via mobile with swype. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 15:21
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    I have a Surface Pro, and I love it. However, it is not a mobile device because it runs a full instruction set. I am talking about devices which run RISC processors that do not have access to any compilers, IDEs, etc (real debugging tools). I agree with the sentiment from your forward looking statement, but do not think we should let this go for 5 years. When the time comes that people run a full instruction set on their mobile devices as opposed to RISC then it will be a lot easier to use a mobile device for development. Again, I don't think anything running Win8 Pro is a mobile device.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 18:40
  • 1
    @TravisJ: A Surface Pro absolutely is a mobile device... which is why in my answer I'm using "handheld", which better conveys "small screen, tiny keyboard with very poor support for punctuation". Oh, also CISC vs RISC has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. Plenty of RISC architectures self-host compilers and debugging tools.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:05
  • @BenVoigt - I was under the impression most RISC processors were only in handhelds. Apparently that is incorrect, as they are also used in higher end systems, so I agree with that point. I do however think there is nothing wrong with the use of mobile device. A mobile device is by definition "handheld", "often fitting in the palm of your hand or pocket", and weighing less than 2 lbs. While a tablet may loosely termed a mobile device, it is more a computer than a handheld. I will make an edit indicating the exclusion of tablets in the question though.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:28
  • I don't think whether "right now" or "in a few years" makes a difference. Did you ever try writing even a few lines of code on a virtual smartphone/tablet keyboard ? It's so hard and frustrating.
    – user2629998
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 23:33
  • 1
    "Users who write bad questions will get their feedback in the form of swift and brutal down-voting." which means more work for the moderating community which I think was the point of the question.
    – djv
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 19:30
  • You don't have to partake if you don't want to. There are plenty of people willing (and IMO over aggressive if anything). Bad posts are often downed within seconds. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 20:07
13

As Bart said, we should get some data to see if mobile use is actually predictive of question quality.

Assuming the data says it is, I think the easiest solution is to add mobile use to the question quality heuristic used to feed mobile posts to the Triage and Low Quality queues (for questions and answers respectively) and let our current bad-post-handling systems handle them. (First posts already go into the eponymous queue, though arguably it should be a "new users" queue that checks the first N posts for N > 1.)

9

There are plenty of good programming questions that don't directly involve code. Here's a few top-voted questions from the tags I frequent:

  1. Does Swift have access modifiers?
  2. Why create “Implicitly Unwrapped Optionals”?
  3. Xcode 4.5 Storyboard 'Exit'
  4. Custom Cell Row Height setting in storyboard is not responding

Some good questions don't need code because they discuss a problem at a higher (but still solvable) level. Some good questions generalize multiple issues and lead to answers that will solve many people's problems. Some good questions discuss aspects of development that don't involve postable code or screenshots. Some decent questions can't include code because pinning down the cause of an issue isn't easy — I've seen plenty of questions that are meaningful but not initially solvable, where the OP manages to edit it into something more answerable only after comments or chat help diagnose an issue.

Conversely: posting code does not a good question make (cf. many, many questions that fail the MCVE test).

TLDR: If I've spent all day at my desk struggling with something and can elucidate my thoughts well enough to meaningfully solicit help, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to post those thoughts while I'm waiting for the bus.

If we want better questions posted from the mobile app (or mobile website, or the full website accessed via a mobile browser... where does it end?), perhaps we'd be better off amending those apps to encourage better questions.

10
  • Again, and as stated in the post, your points are valid for experienced users. However new users experience so many hurdles to learning the software it seems that presenting them with a situation where they post their very first question from a bus stop may be less than ideal.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:48
  • 1
    Being trusted to ask good questions isn't a privilege one should have to learn. (Asking good questions is part of how one earns privileges, after all.) But see my last point — there's been plenty of meta talk about making the website get "in your face" a bit more about encouraging good questions / discouraging bad questions if you're a new user. That'd be a great thing to bring to mobile as well (even better if it were on a site-specific basis). Shutting people out of asking potentially good questions just alienates potentially good community members.
    – rickster
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 20:57
  • 3
    @TravisJ Do we really need to make SO more unfriendly to new users than it already is? Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:12
  • 1
    @NicolasHolthaus - I wouldn't call it unfriendly. But I think it is probable we need to include more barriers so that our highest contributing users are not constantly forced into janitors on a daily basis.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 21:14
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    @TravisJ - rather than erecting barriers to keep out the unworthy, why not provide enhancements to raise their level of quality? Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:33
  • @ErikFunkenbusch maybe because that's what the web version of SO has been trying for the last few years, and it doesn't work. Any reasons why it would work better in the mobile app?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:40
  • 1
    @l4mpi - if I were to believe that nothing SO has done in the last several years has helped, it would make me awfully depressed. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:44
  • @ErikFunkenbusch I do believe that some things helped, while other things made it worse...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:49
  • Please note that your first two examples include code, and would be far worse without.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 21:58
  • But they don't include "real" code that one would C&P from a development environment, just hypothetical minimally illustrative examples that one doesn't need to be on a work machine to write.
    – rickster
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 22:40
5

Given enough time, I would assume that any quality question could be typed out on a device provided that the device allows to type out symbols present in the allowed formatting syntax.

Consider this scenario:

User is tampering with his Internet connection in some way (for example, executing scripts on his/her household router) when suddenly the Internet connection is lost. Let's assume a user has no other way to access the Internet except for the user's mobile device via a mobile data plan and let's assume the user is not able to find a satisfactory result on the Internet. The user has the scripts he ran on his computer accessible to him, perhaps even an ambiguous error message or stack trace.

The user ponders on the situation: "Okay, I'll go onto Stack Overflow and ask about my problem, sure it'll perhaps take me 10-20 minutes to type everything out properly, but at the moment this is my only way to hope to resolve this."

The user then proceeds to access Stack Overflow, but he is disheartened by the fact that he is unable to ask the question because this functionality is denied to him.

Despair ensues.

TLDR:

Quality questions arise from enough motivation to resolve an ongoing issue, not from the limitations of a platform.

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    Not only is this highly contrieved (why would anybody execute untested scripts on their router, and why would they not just factory reset it when that goes wrong?), it also assumes there is no such thing as tethering. If this is the best scenario you can come up with then I'd say this is so incredibly unlikely and rare that we should not even begin to consider it.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:29
  • @l4mpi Ignore the router then, assume there is no Internet connection available in the household - period. Assume the programmer does his/her coding offline. Assuming that not having an Internet connection at a household at any given time is a rare thing is naive compared to the harsh reality of everyday life. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:43
  • Then how would one use the internet to ask on SO without having internet? Again, do you know what tethering is?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:46
  • 1
    @l4mpi: I think the likelihood of a carrier or region not supporting tethering is higher than the scenario being described here.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:50
  • @BoltClock people care about carriers not allowing tethering? Since when? I don't know any carrier that allows it, but I don't know any carrier stupid enough to start suing users because of it either.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:52
  • 1
    @l4mpi Tethering is not a miracle one-size-fits-all solution, as well as disregarding any compatibility issues, the user might just not be aware of the possibility. It's not what the user can do but about what user is aware of or knows how to do. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:53
  • @l4mpi: Not sure what you're driving at. Do you mean to say that it's never a technical limitation but one of policy? If so then my comment is moot.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:55
  • @BoltClock well, I'm hardly an expert on tethering but in my case it's a feature of my android device: I can simply connect my phone to any pc via USB, klick a button, and share its internet connection; similar to any normal USB 3/4G modem.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:12
  • @l4mpi: If Android offers the feature and it actually works regardless of carrier restrictions, then I suppose the restrictions are not technical and therefore my comment is moot. I'm not sure myself because my carrier advertises tethering as a feature in my mobile plan. I'm not an expert on the subject either.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:18
  • @l4mpi - To my knowledge, in the US, Verizon is the only carrier that has no-cost tethering, because it was a condition of their 4G spectrum purchase from the government. All other carriers, if they allow it, charge significant fees for it. Although, if you root your phone you can get around those fees, but that's something most people don't do. Or, if your carrier allows non-factory ROM'd phones it may also allow it. But, I think only GSM carriers can do that. Still, this is all beside the point... A good use case is "My company doesn't give me web access so I use my phone" Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:27
  • @ErikFunkenbusch "if your carrier allows non-factory ROM'd phones" - they can actually disallow that in the US? This does not sound legal or enforcable, but OK. All I'm saying is all arguments I've heard up to now are hardly more than edge cases, and not a compelling argument that every user should have the ability to ask on SO with a mobile device immediately after registering.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:35
  • @l4mpi - As I said, the simple use case... A company doesn't allow their programmers to access the web from company computers.. (or, maybe they've noticed their programmers spend all day on SO, so they block it to improve productivity). the only choice a developer has is to post questions from their phone, or wait until they get home if they have a computer at home (many people do not have computers at home). Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:41
  • @ErikFunkenbusch not allowing programmers to access the internet is a really hard edge case IMO. It's definitely not common, and I doubt most people would be able to ask a good question in this situation, regardless of input device - doing research from a smartphone is rather painful.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:45
  • 3
    @l4mpi - It's a lot more common than you might imagine. Particularly in larger companies, banking institutions, etc.. And companies that have extensive block filters are also quite common, and they tend to include time wasting sites (or what they believe are time wasting sites like Facebook, Twitter, etc.. anything they view as social media and SO can be viewed as such). Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:49
  • Even one of the SO mods is completely unable to access SO at their current job. I assume they have free time, though.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 10:05
2

Here's a thought... Maybe Stack Overflow's mobile app should add features that make it easier for users to ask complete and high quality programming questions from a mobile device? Maybe add features that compensate for the unique hurdles mobile users face?

There's no reason the mobile app can't save a draft that's in-process, for instance. And there's no reason the app couldn't add special features to improve code entry for various languages. Maybe a gesture-based approach that allowed entry of common symbols.

Of course this would be work... And it would probably just be easier to blame the victims (that is, victims of trying to write code from a mobile device).

I mean, in reality, the same could be said about people with disabilities... It can be difficult to deal with questions from people with dyslexia, or who don't speak English as a primary language, or who are blind and use a screen reader, or maybe they are paralyzed and use some kind of special input device (and yes, these people are actually programmers and do read Stack Overflow).

It may surprise some to know that people who are deaf from birth often are difficult to understand in written form because they often write in ASL, which has different syntax from standard English.

The point is, sometimes we have to deal with situations that are less than optimal, and we need to take steps to make it easier to handle them. We can't just discriminate against people who aren't able to write a perfect question and/or answer.

7
  • 1
    It's already saving a draft, but from developer point of view, I don't see the importance of adding special features (e.g. gesture-based) on SE app. They should use IDE to format their code on their device first, just like PC user, before they post it. However, the app indeed still has its limitation for new user: there is no guide/just-in-time help for posting a quality question/answer.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 8:46
  • @AndrewT. - indeed, I just checked the mobile app and it does have the draft saving feature.. which is quite nice... and makes it doubly confusing why this was not the answer to the linked question above by boltclock to the person complaining about a half finished question submitted by mobile device. However, the point still stands.. if asking questions on a mobile device has limitations, then it's in the communities best interest to alleviate those limitations as much as possible, not ban those people from asking questions. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:00
  • @AndrewT. - If we supply the "weapon" (ie mobile app), then we have a responsibility to help them use it wisely. If writing SO questions from a mobile device is such a burden that it's practically impossible to do, as is suggested by this question, then taking the stance of "There's nothing wrong with the mobile app as is" doesn't quite hold up. Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 9:03
  • IIRC someone studied why AOL users had gained a reputation for being stupid on Usenet. His conclusion was that AOL subscribers were not more stupid than other Usenet users, but that they were let down by their software, which pushed them towards making short 'Me too!' type answers and made it hard for them to do things like read a whole thread before replying.
    – jwg
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 10:59
  • How is it possible to write in ASL? Commented Jan 17, 2015 at 18:59
  • I don't think the problem is dyslexia or ESLers, but rather MEUers (minimal-effort users). Commented Jan 17, 2015 at 19:02
  • @PeterMortensen - ASL uses a different set of grammar rules. It can often sound like you're talking with Yoda. See lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-layout/grammar.htm Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 5:11
-9

You're right. We should ban them, because the platform they choose to post from dictates the legitimacy of their question.

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    Fascinating. The sarcastic hyperbole in your post seems to have acted as a caustic agent, erasing any signs of the rational analysis that was once there.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 5:35
  • 3
    No matter how many times I read my comment, I still get this feeling that my point still stands. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 5:52
  • 7
    I think 'dicates' is too strong. I'd hate to ask a coding question from a mobile device; it is too painful typing the code with spelling 'correctors' futzing with my correctly typed programming non-words. But that means I'm lazy (or under-motivated to ask questions where I don't have a keyboard), not that I couldn't ask a good question if I spent the time. I agree that there is a fairly high probability that a question asked from a mobile device will be less well formatted and less thorough than a question asked from a device with a keyboard, but it is not an absolute impossibility to do it. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 6:50
  • 1
    Fair enough. It's all about probability, as you mentioned. Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 6:56
  • 14
    Wait. Is this answer sarcastic or not?
    – Ant P
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 14:15
  • 6
    The legitimacy of the question isn't at issue - it's the quality and thoroughness of the question.
    – Sam Dufel
    Commented Jan 15, 2015 at 17:56
  • 2
    Of course it's sarcastic. +1
    – john k
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 3:11
  • 2
    But are the downvotes sarcastic? IOW is the face-value content of the answer, or the actual intended meaning being downvoted?
    – jwg
    Commented Jan 16, 2015 at 10:56

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