87

Bad edits are a perennial topic here. I bring them up myself fairly frequently because the problem seems to be getting worse. I feel that our reputation model is partially to blame: at the +2 rep per edit rate, many users are simply making small and meaningless changes (with my personal "favorite" being backticking words that sound even slightly technical or bolding the vital part of the question) for the reputation, instead of actually taking the time to improve a post properly.

We have a review process to temporarily suspend poor editors, but many reviewers are lazy and the penalty seems to kick in too rarely to act as an effective deterrent against useless edits. More importantly, the measures against bad editors happen late: you have to commit an entire spree of poor edits before getting your first ban. I think the editors should have a more immediate form of feedback, and therefore I suggest placing a -1 or -2 reputation penalty on each rejected edit suggested by the user.

I think a small penalty like that is appropriate. It's not large enough to discourage productive editors from editing in fears of getting rejected, but it's an immediate reminder to the editor, and ought to encourage people regularly making careless edits to be more careful and thorough in the future.

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    @kviiri Well honestly, I agree with you. In fact, I even suggested this recently (meta.stackoverflow.com/a/267071/3401018), however no one exactly explained to me why this was a bad idea...
    – Tonio
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 10:48
  • 6
    @kviiri the other day I have edited a question, the code was inside block quote instead of proper code block and the edit has been rejected, the reason was too minor edit which I totally disagreed with it. Why should I lose rep because of misjudgement?
    – modusCell
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:06
  • 30
    -1 because sometimes edit collisions happen making a suggested edit look strange. If a 2k+ user fixes 5 problems with a post and a suggested edit fixes 4 of them, it will appear like the suggested edit introduces a bad change. These need to be rejected but the user shouldn't be punished for it.
    – user247702
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:10
  • @mohacs, so you could get a fair feedback for any mistakes you make instead of getting a seemingly random ban after making dozens of unconstructive edits. Getting rep-hounding editors to be more careful would make the work easier for reviewers as well (and thus reduce the amount of bad calls they make).
    – kviiri
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:12
  • 4
    @Stijn, I think a better edit conflict system is a technical issue that would need to be handled anyway.
    – kviiri
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:13
  • @Stijn, thanks. I understand the point though, I'm very frustrated with the edit conflicts myself. I just don't have a clear picture of how it's supposed to work, lacking experience with this kind of VC myself.
    – kviiri
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:15
  • 5
    Another case, after awhile a question posted OP edited question and added a sentence on top of the question in bold saying "39 views and still no answer?". Deleted that part from question and submitted to review q and I has rejected. Misjudgement again. Kinda agree with you, people just edit posts to change "I'll" to "I will". For my account I am only fixing code indents because I am thinking it is important. How we are going to distinguish which one proper which not.
    – modusCell
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:18
  • 2
    @mohacs, misjudgements happen, and that's bad. There are even review audits that have been wrongly labeled, causing people to get banned from reviewing. These can be reported and fixed, and so I believe the reject penalties if they're "awarded" in error. In any case, I believe that any careful editor would get misjudged only occasionally, and the reputation loss would be insignificant while cutting a great deal of unconstructive editing.
    – kviiri
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 12:28
  • 2
    I would be ok with that, as long as it knows the difference between actually-rejected edits, and those that were "rejected" by Community because another edit occurred simultaneously. I have a dozen or two rejected edits, of which I believe most of them were that type.
    – neminem
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 15:20
  • 17
    -1 This accomplishes nothing except to deter people from wanting to edit in the first place. There are already forms of deterrence that work better (the suspension of privileges). It also would have very limited effectiveness; the +2 rep for edits stops once you've reached a certain amount of rep for doing so, and then you're simply subtracting rep from people who may be honestly trying to improve the question and just not quite understand when and how to do so.
    – Ken White
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 2:03
  • 6
    @KenWhite, I want to deter people from editing. Specifically people who routinely make bad edits. You say people don't understand they're making - then why not tell them like we tell people their questions and answers are bad, or off-topic? Currently the site gives absolutely zero feedback to them, and the suspension of privileges happens only late and for opaque reasons. I want a form of immediate, concrete feedback.
    – kviiri
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 5:44
  • 1
    @MarcusWigert, yep - but I think the key is immediate feedback. No edit ban days after a spree, but rather an immediate notifier that the edit wasn't accepted.
    – kviiri
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 10:05
  • 4
    The only option I can think of would be to let one edit cost 1 rep. If it is accepted, one receives +3 rep, giving him a total of +2. Otherwise, he has lost 1 rep. This could at least prevent people from "harvesting" reputation with hundreds of useless edits, and force them to really think about which edits will most likely be accepted. (I guess something similar was already proposed somewhere, but I did not find something with a quick search)
    – Marco13
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 10:24
  • 1
    @Holger, the problem is not that people edit for rep points, it's that people make bad edits, and rep points reward that. And then they get to be reviewers, and start approving bad edits to get a badge.
    – kviiri
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 12:04
  • 1
    Suggestion that might reduce possible conflicts and help your suggestion to get approved: make the -1 rep only when the decision of rejecting is unanimous and it has 3 reviewers revisions. Usually, unanimous decisions (for rejecting) do really mean it is a bad edit. Commented Aug 7, 2014 at 23:00

7 Answers 7

117

The problem is that bad edits are being approved. When the bad edits are being approved adding a penalty to having edits rejected won't help.

In fact, it's likely to just make things worse. You can bet that if there were even more negative repercussions for a rejected edit even less reviewers would be inclined to reject all but the worst suggested edits. I imagine this would result in a radically reduced number of rejected edits, and much more approved low quality edits.

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    we're lacking ways to educate editors as much as reviewers on what is a good edit. Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 14:11
  • 5
    @JonathanDrapeau If bad edits were actually rejected that would educate editors. They're not learning what's right and wrong because the wrong things are being approved/rejected.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 14:12
  • 1
    I agree, generally it's that way but sometime editors are close to make all their edits great ones. Banning them is harsh while a warning could have been enough. Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 14:14
  • 4
    @JonathanDrapeau The problem is that nothing is happening to the bad editors at all because their bad edits are being approved, not rejected. Until that problem is solved any adjustments in the consequences of rejected edits cannot possibly change anything.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 14:16
  • 5
    @Servy, unless a user is paying very close attention to their suggested edits they won't even know their edit was rejected. There's no feedback to them, unless they actively look it up. And these people eventually wind up being reviewers, without ever learning to edit properly themselves.
    – kviiri
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 5:49
  • It's likely to make things worse, but also likely to make things better, because the sole possibility that an editor will lose reputation if by any, even very small chance, their edit will be rejected should make people to be more careful when suggesting edits.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 14:26
  • 1
    I was so down for the idea of -2 for rejected edits until I read your answer. You're right, this doesn't solve the root issue of bad edits being approved.
    – gitsitgo
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 15:15
  • 9
    I'd much rather see a -100 to the reviewers who approved a bad edit when it gets rolled back. Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 18:59
  • @Servy my bad edits were rejected. I am glad too. When I think about them, they were either wrong or silly, and I didn't realize it until later. So now, I hold off before editing, to provide myself a sanity check. Or I provide my edit as a comment rather than an actual edit.
    – Brian Webb
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 22:50
  • @R.., that's a horrible idea. There's one way to get a -100 rep penalty, and that's getting six offensive/spam flags. Compare that to rollback, which can be made by a single editor. Penalties that a single user can hand out should be no greater than what they already are; a few points of rep.
    – kviiri
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 6:58
  • 3
    @kviiri: Perhaps "-100" is excessive, but I think there should be a serious penalty for approving bad edits, which can easily end up turning a good answer into dangerous mis-advice. If you're not qualified to review the content of the edit, you should be skipping it, and there should be repercussions for not doing so. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 7:25
  • 2
    @R..: That seems very problematic. While it's unfortunately much more common for bad edits to be approved, I also see it quite regularly that good edits get rejected. So if I approve a good edit, but 3 others reject it because they either did not look closely or did not understand what was being edited, I will get punished? No thanks. That would stop me from doing edit reviews quickly. Trying to do a thorough job with reviews is thankless work with no personal gain already, and getting penalties for doing it would be the end of it for me. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 15:18
  • Is there any way to confirm this? I mean, it's natural for bad edits to get approved and for good edits to get rejected, but how much of the time is this happening, in comparison to bad edits getting rejected and good edits getting removed? I want to think that even if a penalty is created for bad edits, the person reviewing said edit isn't going to think "If I reject this edit, the person on the other end will lose reputation, therefore I shouldn't do it." I... just don't see that being human nature over the Internet.
    – Zhouster
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 16:30
  • @Zhouster Downvotes have clearly demonstrated that this is the case though. So many people are so vary unwilling to downvote all but the worst of the worst posts, and many say that this is because of the effects that they have on reputation, however small they are.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 13:58
  • 1
    @Servy Ah, I see. Was not aware of that difference. Well, I think it'd still be good to have some hard numbers to back these claims. Questions and edits seem like they would be slightly different as well, just in terms of content variance.
    – Zhouster
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 16:06
78

The solution seems straightforward: do not reward people with the +2 rep for editing.

Most people want to make edits because they want to improve the content. Most of those will likely continue to do so with or without the +2 rep. I suspect those who are hunting the +2 are strongly correlated with terrible edits.

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    Agreed. I'm not sure if I even knew that editing was rewarded with reputation - it has no effect on whether or not I edit someone's answer. Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 0:36
  • 1
    @SteveBennett: Editing isn't. Only having a suggested edit approved is rewarded, and you no longer suggest edits.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 5:07
  • 1
    Huh, how...odd. Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 5:28
  • 2
    Why not start with +1 rep for editing, and analyze how that affects editing and reviewing activities?
    – FooBar
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 13:32
  • 6
    I wouldn't care about the +2 if I could already make edits without review. Some edits I have made were minor. Some edits I wanted to make but didn't would have been minor. If I was at 2k, I'd have the same feeling as @SteveBennett: making edits because they should be made, but since I am not, I have to weigh whether an edit would be rejected (to date, none have been). Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 13:56
  • 3
    To be honest, I find the whole approach of tying everything to reputation weird and unappealing. To me, editing answers is not a privilege, it's a necessary task. If I was designing SO, I'd let anyone with say 100 rep edit other people's answers, provide feedback mechanisms and guidance, and block people from editing if they misuse it. Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 14:43
  • 2
    @Steve: If I were going to make a change, it would be that if the post author has more than 2k rep, for 48 hours the edit goes to the author for review. After that it can be applied or reviewed depending whether the post prior to edit has more than 5 upvotes. This would make it really easy for low rep users to help fix problems of new users, while preventing damage to valuable content (content which is upvoted by the community or written by an author with many other upvotes is assumed to be valuable).
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 15:36
  • 1
    Agree 100% - but I also think we should remove badges for reviewing edits as well. Un-gamify the problem areas.
    – bd33
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 18:20
  • 3
    I'm with Michael. The only reason I care about reputation is because it would make it easier to make edits. I'm just starting in the tech field so I don't have a lot of technical knowledge, but I'm pretty good at proofreading and I would like to contribute to the site in the way that I can.
    – numaroth
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 18:39
  • @Kirk Woll. I like this, but if I am the submitter of a question, and someone does an edit I really like, I would like to have the option of maybe granting them 2 of my reputation points as a reward for helping me. This way edits that don't really do anything for me may be accepted, but not rewarded, and good ones are motivated to continue.
    – Brian Webb
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 22:54
  • @Brian, I'm not sure you understand how the rep bonus works. It will be awarded quite independently of any action on your part. Others have to approve it in the edit queue (the odds of it being you is slim). However, as this whole question illustrates, bad edits are getting through, and that must stop. IMO, people want to edit; the fact we are giving people the option to edit at all (rather than depending on their obtaining 2000 rep) albeit with some extra moderation, is already an awesome privilege. I see absolutely no reason we need to gild the lily and also award reputation.
    – Kirk Woll
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 1:57
  • Yes! I didn't even know until now that there was a reward for accepted edits and I have edited questions with good will several times. I think this would be perfect. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 9:51
  • 1
    @KirkWoll, I understand. You may not realize what I am suggesting is a whole new way to look at rep vs edits. Start using rep as a currency, that is spent by the people approving the edits. They will think twice. Then the edits that are truly worth while will get submitted through. It is a simple practice of positive and negative initiative. Think of rep as cash in an economy.
    – Brian Webb
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 2:21
  • @Brian, are you seriously suggesting that people spend their rep in order to exercise their voluntary charity of helping approve edits!?!?
    – Kirk Woll
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 13:52
  • @KirkWoll, yes. But only by the amount that they want to contribute to the editor. So if the edit means nothing, then I contribute nothing. If the edit is amazing, then I contribute how much I feel like it is worth to me. But editors that contribute nothing of value get nothing of value for their contribution. So we are discouraging useless contributions and approvals become tips from the approver to the editor. Tips work in every other industry, why not here?
    – Brian Webb
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 18:25
50

I think instead of going for all out -2 to all rejections (which will make people less likely to reject) or all out removal of the +2 for accepted edits, we should give the reviewers an opportunity to rate the edit's reputation value.

Make the default no rep change. Have a slider with 5 steps from "vandalism" to "neutral" to "great edit" by which outstandingly positive or negative edits can be given rep changes by the reviewers. (The actual change is the average given by reviewers).

That way there is a way to accept good-but-minor edits without giving an incentive to spam them. And it stays safe to reject questionable edits, while also having a tool for fighting back against atrocious ones.

And the robo-reviewers probably won't be bothered to change the rating, because they're mostly interested in their own review count.

Statistical data could also reveal voting rings in a way that isn't possible from a simple accept/reject vote.

Note: If the accept or reject button is clicked contrary to the rating, the reviewer will get a popup error.

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    Just have the slider be off by default, forcing reviewer to rate the edit... take that robo-reviewers! Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 15:55
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    @JonathanDrapeau: No, I specifically want giving rep to require more clicks than accepting with no rep. Robo-reviewers will do the minimum amount of work as always, and I don't want that minimum to include a rep award.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 16:11
  • 1
    Forcing them to do one more click might dissuade some robo-reviewer to keep doing it... but I see your point. Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 16:16
  • Vote rings aren't just "this is abuse" and "these are just good happy users". Knowing a user, for example, can subconsciously introduce bias.
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 2:02
  • 1
    @bjb568: My vote may be influenced by a user's previously demonstrated level of expertise... but a particular user isn't going to be a significant fraction of my reviews, or even reviews granting rep, not the way it would be for sockpuppets. And by making the "usual" action to accept with no rep given, funny business should stand out more.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 5:06
  • @BenVoigt How about a group of users in chat (for an event or something), where half the edits in the queue are from them? You go "meh, -1", "ok, 0", "great, BobbyTables is a good editor, +2", without even realizing it.
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 5:38
  • At the very least I really like the idea of an extra click or two beyond reject/approve, to also say "this is a worthwhile edit -- someone not only spent some time cleaning this up, they did it really well, too!", while leaving the default at no rep change (for the cases when someone just changes "I'll" to "I will" or vice versa - maybe reject, maybe approve something like that, but don't penalize them by default). I'd like a 3 position scale from 0-2 rep (0 default), with a vote of "Vandalism" that doesn't penalize instantly (not unless/until they do it several times, by banning or rep hit) Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 12:56
  • 2
    I agree with this answer. If both "bounds" are troublesome, give a middle-position solution, and this answer is the one I was thinking about. Upvoted :). Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 14:53
  • @bjb: They won't see the same review items. And even if they did, their reviews are spread over a larger number of editors. The funny business is the pattern where a small set of reviewers is awarding rep to a small set of editors.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 15:30
  • @BenVoigt So it's a negligible effect? Well, at least, there should be a system for checking abuse... I think this is needlessly complex. If no rep is awarded every time, it would be like a mod task, which is fitting since it is. Like all mod tasks, there is no positive feedback, only negative: bans.
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 16:07
  • @bjb568: The effect is not negligible if it is repeated often enough... Remember you can review edits without going through the queue if you have a link to the post...
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 0:05
9

As a person who edits posts in StackOverflow, I'd like to state my priorities while editing a post.

  1. Re-tagging - AFAIC, it seems like a big deal. Personally, while I am searching for a solution on SO, the first thing I do is a tag filtering. So the first thing I do while I encounter with a post which is not tagged relevantly, is re-tag it.
  2. Serious spelling/grammatical mistakes.
  3. Questions without proper title.
  4. The code which is not coded and unformatted external links.

For me anything which comes under the four mentioned above is a valid edit and I'd like to do it whether or not I'm awarded with a +2 reputation. IMHO It's not proper to add/remove our own sentences and code to someone else's post in extensive manner. If that seems necessary, I prefer to flag it or comment for more details.

Personally, I'd like to second Kirk Woll's suggestion. Because sometimes I had a feeling that some of the reviewers rejecting the edits (which contains at least one of the above 4) because it's not worth a +2 rep.

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    I would suggest that you're missing the big point of editing with that list. The #1 'big deal' should be fixing questions that are not good questions, grammar or spelling aside: where the question does contain a nugget of good question, but is too badly written or organized to be a good question; missed a lot of information which later ended up in comments; the initial question was off topic (asking for a tool, for example) but could be converted into a useful question. These are the most important edits. Everything in your list is second tier.
    – Joe
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 14:16
  • 2
    When you've rejected over 400 edits as vandalism because they only "improve formatting" by not touching formatting and doing 1 (tagging java as jQuery), 2 (editing correct english into... what's on the front page), 3 (adding tags to the title), or 4 (backticking random words), you find that the list isn't that good. What should happen is: a) remove thanks b) put the (one, else don't edit and CV too broad) question in a visible spot c) make a fitting (else CV unclear) title based on it d) add code from an external link e) remove irrelevant code and f) remove misuse of 1. formatting.
    – bjb568
    Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 16:26
3

"Rejected edits" don't deserve down-votes. Someone has made an effort to edit it, if it isn't good its rejected. If an edit is good then they get accepted and a +2 is given for users below 2000 rep, that's a good practice to keep up good edits.

When too many edits are rejected the user is automatically banned from edits for a period, this keeps a check on bad edits.

Well there are exceptions but I think the current system handles it well.

-1

As a person who is constantly suggesting edits, I would be happy for the +2 reputation to be removed. Unlike others, I don't purposely edit posts for the reputation.

Users should suggest edits in good will, knowing that they'll be helping others understand the post, rather than "only being in it for the reputation".

Although it had been suggested that users who review the post should be able to contribute to how much reputation the suggester will receive, I am against this as the system will be open to abuse.

1
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    Why post an answer to a several year old question just to restate the content of another answer?
    – Servy
    Commented May 22, 2016 at 0:43
-18

Well, many have already argued about editing useless things like just a thank you or changing the question with the same meaning like this question and similar to this. But no one has ever come to a clear consensus.

Moreover, it should be accounted for negative reputation points, but in the end it would be discouraging others from even editing a question let it be meaningful or not.

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    From what I've understood, there is a clear consensus that bad edits are a problem. I asked about this, recently: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/266637/… The site already accounts that by giving automatic edit bans for accounts that make several bad edits. I just feel that the measure is too slow and kicks in too rarely to make a difference.
    – kviiri
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 10:18
  • Exactly the SO handles a lot of requests of edits which cannot be handled that fast.The moderator / admin is the final person to approve it or sometimes it automatically gets approved.
    – user285oo6
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 10:25
  • 2
    No, it's three approves or three rejects from reviewers - whichever comes first. But I don't see how this is relevant to my suggestion.
    – kviiri
    Commented Jul 31, 2014 at 10:27

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