184

If you stumble across a user whose answers and questions are just terrible, is it okay to downvote and vote to close as needed, or is that crossing the line of serial downvoting?

It's nothing personal -- you don't even know this person -- but everything they post is just god-awful and unhelpful.

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  • 14
    The serial voting reversal algorithm will pick that up and undo it, so whether or not it's acceptable to do is a moot point, it's made useless by the Stack Exchange system itself.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 19:59
  • 17
    Are you actively going through all of their posts to vote on? You shouldn't be targeting votes either up or down.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 19:59
  • 83
    "We don't want you targetting a user" but every user has a "user feed" link in their profiles, which allows you to subscribe to their content, which seems to me quite akin to targetting. So whatever you do, do not subscribe to anyone's feed and if you do, DO NOT vote on any of that user's contributions. That would be terrible. Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:03
  • 20
    @bluefeet is it really targeting if there is no malice and the answer/question deserves a downvote? Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:04
  • 21
    @RUJordan If you are actively going through the posts of a user to vote on them, then yes that is targeting.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:06
  • 139
    I often 'review' users when I see bad content from them (make sure it isn't a habit of theirs). I think as a community run site that is important for some people to do. I disagree with the mods stand on this.
    – rlemon
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:07
  • 29
    @bluefeet I have to respectfully disagree. I agree that it's targetting, but if one is voting without malice, it's a site improvement. I don't like the feeling of being powerless against a user with poor content which would be voted down upon posting. Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:08
  • 33
    @rlemon - it isn't a mod stance. It is a tooling issue. It is better to not have such votes automatically invalidated. And there is no way to detect intent on votes - if there was, we'd be golden.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:13
  • 1
    "mod stand in this issue" specifically is in reply to yours and bluefeets views.
    – rlemon
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:14
  • 20
    @RUJordan: The problem is that in general, the person who is voting has a suspiciously high chance of deciding that their self is not voting with malice. Humans are really, really good at justification. In fact, this has happened to me once. How do I know? The voter was dving answers where they believed I should have closevoted instead of answering (never mind most of the time I did also closevote after a dupe turned up); they were justifying their actions in chat, in answer to a third user who asked "are you sure doing that is cool?".
    – Jon
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 21:32
  • 5
    @bluefeet that IS the problem. The system doesn't let non-indifferent people to keep it clean. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:39
  • 15
    This is why I never post a comment when downvoting; I tried it before and suddenly got negative votes on old contributions. Perhaps there should be a mechanism whereby downvotes could be explained anonymously?
    – user146043
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 12:11
  • 19
    I'd be all for anonymous comments when associated with a downvote. But mysteriously, this idea just hasn't caught on.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 12:16
  • 2
    A related discussion - How to know if I am a serial up voter?
    – Lix
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 14:28
  • 1
    A dup of my post here, now on Meta SE.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 19:26

8 Answers 8

125

Ask yourself this: are you actually going to go through every post they've written, evaluate it on its individual merits, test the accuracy of each answer and compare it to other answers on the same question, and then...

  • Down-vote only those which objectively contribute nothing useful?
  • Up-vote only those which objectively contribute something useful?

Be honest. Remember, if you lie you're only lying to yourself; the system doesn't care. Sometimes, you're gonna get away with it; other times, you're not. Sometimes, you'll think you got away with it but then a moderator will give you a stern warning and you'll realize you just wasted a bunch of time. So be honest...

If the answer is "yes" - if you're actually able to give each answer its due without prejudice... Then sure, that's legit.

Speaking as someone who has been doing this for years as a courtesy to folks who got themselves quality-banned... It is very, very hard to do this honestly and objectively. If you can't do it, if you don't want to do it, then take Oded's advice and don't try.

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    I often do exactly that (evaluating each post on individual merits) when typically downvoting a post and recognising that I saw/answered/voted on a post by the same user earlier in the day, or seeing a question which will only makes sense after reading their previous (one, two, ...) questions. Sometimes it's enlightening (user demonstrates overall "good" behavior) changing my perspective of whatever prompted me to look; otherwise if it looks like I'll be voting the same way for everything I stop after a couple of votes. "You can't fight the system".
    – AD7six
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 21:06
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    This answer made me think of Count Rugen in The Princess Bride, when he was testing The Machine on Westley and taking notes.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 22:16
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    Speaking as a mod, even I find myself in a similar quandary every now and then. If I'm not monitoring a user for problematic behavior already anyway, then I may be catching a user posting new answers to questions as I use the site. And almost every time they do the post is objectively low-quality, even if I fix the formatting problems that such users often seem to never learn from despite having every last one of their posts fixed by other users. I'm left wondering if I should send the user a warning or something else.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 2:35
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    I have one problem with this answer: when I browse the front page and see a low-quality question which I down- and closevote, I mostly check the user's profile to see if he has other questions which need to be closed (if I feel they are saveable I often leave comments). But when I then find questions that clearly deserve a closevote, I'm not allowed to downvote them as that would constitute serial downvoting...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:27
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    Regardless of being legit or not, won't the system reverse it anyway (at least in the case of downvotes)? So what's the point of doing it? Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 13:00
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    That depends on a number of factors, @Dukeling - generally-speaking, you shouldn't worry about it if you're acting in good faith.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 18:19
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    @BoltClock "even if I fix the formatting problems that such users often seem to never learn from despite having every last one of their posts fixed by other users" Seems to me that they learned pretty well: they don't need to worry much about quality because other people will improve it for them. Anology: Because they pick it up each week, I've learned to keep putting my garbage can on the curb. I haven't learned that I should empty it into in the back of my car and drive it to the dump (even though that's what they're doing). Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 21:25
  • @RobertHarvey, I'm pretty sure Shog should edit his answer to "... And remember, this is for posterity so be honest." I'm tempted to do it myself. Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 15:17
  • @Shog9 How does the system detect "good faith"? ;0
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 24, 2014 at 13:57
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    The rationale for this site-wide design choice is frankly terribly poor. It is indeed erring too much on the side of assuming that any correlated pattern is going to be subjective, while non-correlated patterns are somehow "objective". If Wikipedia were ran this way, they'd never ban any vandals etc. I would draw the line at serial unexplained downvotes i.e. without leaving any comments someone else can check and/or agree with. Also worth noting that rlemon's comment under the question (in opposition to this) has more upvotes than this official answer. Commented Dec 31, 2014 at 10:36
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    I managed to dig up the relevant link to Wikipedia policy: "What harassment is not". The relevant bit is that the definition of harassment there excludes "tracking a user's contributions for policy violations; the contribution logs exist for editorial and behavioral oversight." Commented Dec 31, 2014 at 10:43
  • 1
    You know Wikipedia doesn't have voting, right?
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Dec 31, 2014 at 13:20
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    Check it out: a Firefox add-on whose sole purpose is to automatically serial-downvote specific users without being detected. That's not very nice at all. Why would a developer create an appicatiion to screw over other developers? Maybe the add-on will receive serial-poor-ratings... 😉‎
    – ashleedawg
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 7:32
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    That's not helpful. So long as the system doesn't care whether your serial-downvoting is genuine or not, being honest doesn't change anything. You'll still get the "we don't trust you on this" treatment as anyone else. And when legitimate serial-downvoting becomes impossible, the system is broken, and being honest cannot fix that. Commented Jul 28, 2023 at 7:42
59

or is that crossing the line of serial downvoting?

It isn't crossing the line. It is the definition of serial downvoting.

Going after every post of a person and downvoting them because they are bad quality, rather than because of the OP, is indistinguishable from downvoting them because of the OP.

Don't do it. If you see bad posts, downvote them as you find them, don't go looking for them.


I'd love to say go ahead, but as it stands, our tools that detect and reverse serial votes (upvotes as well as downvotes) have no way of detecting intent.

My recommendation to avoid doing so stems from how the tools operate - going after the posts of a user, with however good intentions is, at this point in time, counter productive.

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    But... but... the system could be cleaned up so much more... ;_;
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:00
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    I have to agree this is a bit of a flaw in the system. I'm just powerless when I find a user with exceptionally poor content? Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:05
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    Hmm... couldn't the average time between votes be used to distinguish between those cases? Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:07
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    @RUJordan - bring it to chat, where other people can weigh in. The Tavern tends to have some people at all times.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:08
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    So if I see a user with a crap post, and I peek at their profile and see 7 other crap posts I cannot downvote them? because that is "the definition of serial downvoting." that seems to send mixed messages about "vote as I see them"
    – rlemon
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:10
  • 4
    @rlemon - the message is about targeting users. And that's where the "peek at their profile" bit comes into play. The problem is that there is no way to distinguish why the votes going from user A to user B have occurred.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:11
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    The problem is the site encourages you to look at the user's content, or at least allows you to do it with ease. The link to the profile, the sortable lists of questions and answers, user feeds. All of that information is there at your disposal, and you're telling us not to use it? Not to vote upon it? I realize it's hard to distinguish, it's not a perfect world, but if you understand the questions/answers well enough to vote, vote. I don't care how you discover it. If we can't look at someone's history and vote upon it, then just don't show me the history. Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:14
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    If some algorithm comes in later and reverses it, then so be it. It just means the site is broken in perhaps an unfixable way. Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:14
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    Say I visit a user's profile and see a lot of crap. Is it legit to post the link to chat and say "everyone, please choose one of the questions at random and downvote as necessary"? Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:17
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    I would love to say that you should DV all such crap, regardless of how you got to it, but with how serial votes are detected, that is counter productive at this time.
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:17
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    FWIW, on those rare days when I actually get to spend an hour or so just reviewing posts on SO I have no problem using up votes on crap without going through anyone's profile, @rlemon. If everyone did that, we wouldn't need to worry about stuff "falling through the cracks".
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 20:30
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    "don't go looking for them" cough review queue cough
    – bjb568
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 21:43
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    You're working on that, right? Improving the tools so that they can read minds? I'll look for tests in 6–8 weeks.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 22:27
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    We've had at least one user on Arqade who added so many low quality contributions in a short period of time, that the downvotes were caught by the serial downvoting script. And this was not an isolated incident for me alone; others reported the same issue. If a user makes SO many low quality contributions in such a short period of time, I don't believe they should be reversed; the contributor is at fault, not the people downvoting. In my mind, that is a legitimate serial downvote.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 3:55
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    @fbueckert at 35 questions/day, Arqade is a small site and reversal of votes cast against user who crap-bombs front page is a bug in script, plain and simple, see Fix serial downvoting reversal to not apply to users spamming site front page with bad answers. FWIW similar legitimate cases can occur in low traffic tags at SO but it would probably be more complicated to fix the script to account for that
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 20:39
28

Now I'm a low rep user who does a lot more using of SO than actually contributing (who has the time?), but from experience the community tends to give their opinion pretty quickly if an answer or a question is poor quality.

I've had it happen to me on occasion when I've been in too much of a rush to answer the question only to find I didn't read it properly, or made an error. I get told pretty quickly and downvotes quickly follow until I correct the quality of my answer.

My point being, I can't see how coming along after the fact and serially downvoting (or upvoting) someone's answers actually contributes to sentiment the community has already given to someone's content here. By trolling through someone's posts, you already have a particular bias you are applying to all of their answers, rather than taking each on its merit.

I think that's what the moderators are meaning with their stance :)

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    You have one misconception: It is never "after the fact", as long as the post exists, because the original asker might have posed the question, but the question and answers should be useful for uncounted more people. Commented Aug 1, 2014 at 19:53
  • @Deduplicator The poster is talking about serial voting after the fact, not someone who encounters the question in the context of finding an answer to the same question.
    – Jane S
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 5:42
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    It should be noted that this happens much more predictably on high-traffic topics than on low-traffic topics. Questions about more niche technologies or use cases won't get nearly as much traffic as those on, say, JavaScript. If you post an answer on a very popular subject, it will probably get votes quickly (whether up or down,) but that's not the case on all subjects.
    – reirab
    Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 19:47
  • FYI, "trolling" is not a blanket term for cyber-annoyance, and has a specific meaning. Commented Feb 11, 2016 at 2:12
  • @CamiloMartin I didn't use the term "trolling" in that context, I used it as a colloquial term "trolling through", meaning "to look through with intent".
    – Jane S
    Commented Feb 11, 2016 at 2:19
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    @JaneS Excuse me then! I've rarely seen the physical meanings of trolling being used, so I assumed incorrectly. Commented Feb 11, 2016 at 2:28
  • @reirab For the same reason, niche technology tend to have a specific "behavior": there are less users following the topic, hence the voting/commenting/answering behavior, is not as "smoothed". I have seen this especially on Stack Overflow for less usual languages. It's ok, but it can be disturbing sometimes. There are also differences among communities (tag based) as to the overall "kindness" of answers or votes (known phenomenon even outside of SE, and also noticeable between SE communities).
    – user10307643
    Commented May 19, 2019 at 20:13
18

Flag one post for moderator's attention, describing the user's behavior, more than "this question is crap, please ban this user."

I've encountered this, as so many others. All recent questions from one particular were of the type: "How do I get a point on a graph?", without any context. The questions were all in my favorite tag, so most of them I had already seen, downvoted and voted to close. After going through some more of the past posts, downvoting the bad ones, and voting to close, I got tired of it and flagged a post for moderator's attention.

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I must say I was very happy when this happened the same day:

enter image description here

Yes, that's a well-deserved one-year ban.

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    I find it surprising that the automatic question banning system didn't already take care of this.
    – user456814
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 22:38
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    I agree. Probably because this user had 24 gold badges, more than 80 silver, some hundred bronze badges, and a few thousand rep. You would think (s)he should know better. And as you can see from the post I flagged, it wasn't closed and had an accepted answer (I don't know if that's included in the automatic banning algorithm..? Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 22:40
  • Phew, is that a ban of a year? Hope they'd received warnings prior to that... :)
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 19:40
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    @halfer, the user who got banned is the reason for this other question asked on meta. I don't know if the moderators took any action at that time, but (s)he has received a lot of comments on his/hers posts encouraging better behavior. That's all I know. Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 22:06
  • Ah right, well if they've been ignoring comments, that's frustrating. It's good to know that mods will help with this sort of issue.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 20, 2014 at 22:40
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    When I first read this, I was wondering why they would ban someone for an hour... until I realized it was actually for a year.
    – reirab
    Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 19:50
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    I am curious: did things improve after the suspension was over?
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 28, 2016 at 16:42
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    It seems the answer was "no": meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/336329 A shame.
    – jscs
    Commented Oct 31, 2016 at 17:29
  • @JoshCaswell, this answer is actually about a different user with "only" 10k rep, compared to the >30k user on the other one. The user that got a ban here hasn't posted bad content again as far as I know. :) Commented Oct 31, 2016 at 19:48
  • 1
    I see...well, glad to be wrong in this case!
    – jscs
    Commented Oct 31, 2016 at 20:43
6

I would suggest that if you find a user whose posts are that bad, it's better to flag one for a moderator's attention rather than to just downvote every single one.

Of course the inverse of that, serial upvoting, can be legitimate. If I'm bored and want to learn more about programming, I can just find Eric Lippert's feed and start reading his posts for hours at a time. It's rare to find one of his posts not worthy of an upvote, so that's a case for legitimate serial upvoting.

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This is the XY problem. Like a lot of meta questions about the quality of questions and answers, the stated goal is to remove or make less visible low quality questions and answers, and the intended goal is to stop people posting low quality questions and answers.

The crappy material already posted on Stack Overflow does very little harm. The rare exception might be a very highly rated (or quite highly rated but accepted) answer which tells you the wrong way to do something, when the right way is uncontroversial and clearly superior. This hardly ever happens, and usually sorts itself out quite quickly.

The new material which is constantly being posted, on the other hand, is a problem as it floods various places where people look to find good new content. Now, is being serially downvoted going to change what you post in the future? Someone who is on a path of improvement already is going to be discouraged. Someone who is obliviously posting crap questions day after day (which haven't already been downvoted? or have they?) isn't going to change. They have already got the answers they need, and probably aren't interested in accumulating reputation points. Someone who isn't here anymore or has changed throwaway accounts? It will just be irrelevant.

-1

This is targeting a user. And by definition personal.

I once argued the other direction, but with time this is what I really think.

My rule of thumb is that after three targeted user-questions to stop DV'ing those.

With close-voting I don't have such a rule, just for the DVs.

Not so unusual is to also find a re-post scheme when tracking a user. I normally CV against the first question then and leave a comment on the re-posts. If it's over the limit (e.g. more than one re-post), I also call for moderator attention.

And yes, I can perfectly understand the mood to just kill with fire. But it's not 1:1 here on SO, and often a user with more reputation has more power, so be gentle.

-4

You're depriving them of a chance to get better if you stalk them and downvote all their posts. I've had stuff downvoted, and so have you. We see that we where downvoted, scratch our heads and wonder why, then set about avoiding that, all things considered.

But say I'm a bit blind and do a lot of terrible posts, but also a few good ones and you say "Hey this shayne dude's a pretty cruddy poster" and set about downvoting me for everything including the non terrible posts, how can I distinguish the mistake?

Yes, it's serial behavior.

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    I don't get the logic here. How is downvoting posts depriving someone of a chance to get better? Are you saying the same thing Oded is, because the system will invalidate votes casted in rapid succession against the same user, so you'll never see them?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 3:29
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    @CodyGray he's saying if you do (serial) downvote a user's content indescriminatly they won't know what was wrong/how to fix the posts as some votes won't have an objective reason for being downvoted.
    – AD7six
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 7:24
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    @CodyGray someone who has been motivated by the rep system to improve the quality of what they post is going to feel that they can't win if they lose a bunch of rep due to past mistakes, and maybe stop trying.
    – jwg
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:44
  • @jwg Unless they fix those past mistakes, which is what we're trying to encourage people to do anyway.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 22:43
  • Yes but this is refering to downvoting all their previous posts. Why downvote good posts? Its not honest and doesn't allow the person to work out where their mistakes are.
    – Shayne
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 4:10
  • @CodyGray first of all, they have no guarantee that if they change their old posts, someone will go back and remove the downvotes. Secondly, the previously posted bad posts are not the right problem to fix, as I explain in my answer.
    – jwg
    Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 5:56

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